Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Banjax on 17 June 2009, 08:51:41
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http://www.eta.co.uk/car_buyers_guide/ten_worst
anyone else notice that it reads like a wish list of automobile porn (with the exception of the Escalade)
looks like the greens won't be getting my vote anytime soon :y
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You can also click on the link to see the 10 "best" cars. Looks about as appetising as a limp salad :(
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You can also click on the link to see the 10 "best" cars. Looks about as appetising as a limp salad :(
.....limp salad - mmmmmmmmm ;D :y
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Seriously though - it’s a typically green comparison.
Find the worst examples, then the supposed best and base your argument on those parameters.
The net result is a raft of ill-considered proposals which falls far short of those necessary to realistically address the problem.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PahVN9OOT9Y[/media]
...or for a less macho video......
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFQPcfYRk7s[/media]
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Have you also noticed that the Top 10 "Worst" includes the model names Murcielago, Arnage, Azure, Brooklands, V12 Vantage.
The Top 10 "Best" includes model names such as: iQ, Yaris, Pixo and Alto.
So, if you want one from the "Best" list, you need to ring Julian or Sandy at Bona Cars...
Get my drift? ;) ;D
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Have you also noticed that the Top 10 "Worst" includes the model names Murcielago, Arnage, Azure, Brooklands, V12 Vantage.
The Top 10 "Best" includes model names such as: iQ, Yaris, Pixo and Alto.
So, if you want one from the "Best" list, you need to ring Julian or Sandy at Bona Cars...
Get my drift? ;) ;D
Nick!! - you are awful :-* :-* ;D :y
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http://www.eta.co.uk/car_buyers_guide/ten_worst
anyone else notice that it reads like a wish list of automobile porn (with the exception of the Escalade)
looks like the greens won't be getting my vote anytime soon :y
isnt it also the greens that control the transport side of things in Ireland?, no wonder their road tax is so ridiculously high, giving "do-gooder yoghurt knitters" power is a recipe for disaster, mind you if it wasnt for our government brainwashing people with the climate change rubbish just to raise taxes the greens wouldnt exist. >:(, the other thread on here regarding cremetoriums says it all >:( >:(
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Dilligaf what the greens think >:( >:( >:( ::)
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may be the greens dont see millions of diesel smoking everyday.. >:(
today a diesel suv was just in front of me in the traffic crowd..even if he touches the pedal slightly I cant see anything other than a black cloud.. >:( >:(
ps: banjaxx your avatar definitely takes my vote :y :y
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may be the greens dont see millions of diesel smoking everyday.. >:(
today a diesel suv was just in front of me in the traffic crowd..even if he touches the pedal slightly I cant see anything other than a black cloud.. >:( >:(
ps: banjaxx your avatar definitely takes my vote :y :y
Hmm. I never understood why Guevara became the poster boy of trendy left. Indeed, I remain unconvinced that he was actually a nice bloke. ;)
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Well I just love all the 10 "worst cars" and would have anyone of those today, and if I had the money I would just say stuff those who want me to potter around in a noddy car! :-* :-* 8-) 8-) 8-)
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Well I just love all the 10 "worst cars" and would have anyone of those today, and if I had the money I would just say stuff those who want me to potter around in a noddy car! :-* :-* 8-) 8-) 8-)
...and you would be quite correct in doing so Ms Zoom 8-) :y :y
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may be the greens dont see millions of diesel smoking everyday.. >:(
today a diesel suv was just in front of me in the traffic crowd..even if he touches the pedal slightly I cant see anything other than a black cloud.. >:( >:(
ps: banjaxx your avatar definitely takes my vote :y :y
Hmm. I never understood why Guevara became the poster boy of trendy left. Indeed, I remain unconvinced that he was actually a nice bloke. ;)
Originally he was a doctor..after the revolution in Cuba, Castro ask him to stay
as a minister..but he refused ..and go for another revolution..
if you read his life , he devote all of it for the exploited,abused masses..
here is a quick link..unfortunately even whats written
here is not completely objective.. :-/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara
just think why after many years songs and many writings are done for him..
and for people like me he is a hero.. :y :y
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I used to think he was Citizen Smith
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may be the greens dont see millions of diesel smoking everyday.. >:(
today a diesel suv was just in front of me in the traffic crowd..even if he touches the pedal slightly I cant see anything other than a black cloud.. >:( >:(
ps: banjaxx your avatar definitely takes my vote :y :y
Hmm. I never understood why Guevara became the poster boy of trendy left. Indeed, I remain unconvinced that he was actually a nice bloke. ;)
Originally he was a doctor..after the revolution in Cuba, Castro ask him to stay
as a minister..but he refused ..and go for another revolution..
if you read his life , he devote all of it for the exploited,abused masses..
here is a quick link..unfortunately even whats written
here is not completely objective.. :-/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara
just think why after many years songs and many writings are done for him..
and for people like me he is a hero.. :y :y
But not for me, I'm afraid, Cem.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article2461399.ece
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I suppose the Greens have a point regarding emissions effect on the environment from big motors but i could'nt care less tbh, limp wristed idealistic whingers.
MV6 or some 1.0 fwd euro box?
Hardly a dilemma really. ::)
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Click on the viper :-?
Catagory: Off road???
Stupid greens ;D ;D ;D
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may be the greens dont see millions of diesel smoking everyday.. >:(
today a diesel suv was just in front of me in the traffic crowd..even if he touches the pedal slightly I cant see anything other than a black cloud.. >:( >:(
ps: banjaxx your avatar definitely takes my vote :y :y
Hmm. I never understood why Guevara became the poster boy of trendy left. Indeed, I remain unconvinced that he was actually a nice bloke. ;)
Originally he was a doctor..after the revolution in Cuba, Castro ask him to stay
as a minister..but he refused ..and go for another revolution..
if you read his life , he devote all of it for the exploited,abused masses..
here is a quick link..unfortunately even whats written
here is not completely objective.. :-/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara
just think why after many years songs and many writings are done for him..
and for people like me he is a hero.. :y :y
But not for me, I'm afraid, Cem.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article2461399.ece
people dont have to believe in same things..
if you start a revolutinary act , its normal that you live in a struggle of live or die..and its normal that there is no mercy..
and if you look who trapped and killed him,
that organizations history is marked with blood..
assasinations, murders and many bad stories including my country.. :(
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may be the greens dont see millions of diesel smoking everyday.. >:(
today a diesel suv was just in front of me in the traffic crowd..even if he touches the pedal slightly I cant see anything other than a black cloud.. >:( >:(
ps: banjaxx your avatar definitely takes my vote :y :y
Hmm. I never understood why Guevara became the poster boy of trendy left. Indeed, I remain unconvinced that he was actually a nice bloke. ;)
Originally he was a doctor..after the revolution in Cuba, Castro ask him to stay
as a minister..but he refused ..and go for another revolution..
if you read his life , he devote all of it for the exploited,abused masses..
here is a quick link..unfortunately even whats written
here is not completely objective.. :-/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara
just think why after many years songs and many writings are done for him..
and for people like me he is a hero.. :y :y
But not for me, I'm afraid, Cem.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article2461399.ece
people dont have to believe in same things..
if you start a revolutinary act , its normal that you live in a struggle of live or die..and its normal that there is no mercy..
and if you look who trapped and killed him,
that organizations history is marked with blood..
assasinations, murders and many bad stories including my country.. :(
We have an expression in England, Cem:
"If you live by the sword, you die by the sword."
Guevara and the CIA? A 1-1 draw, I'd say. ;)
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Che was a real cool dude etc.but he helped to create the "socialist utopia" in Cuba,where the citizens arent allowed to leave the country because if they do they wont come back,and many of them risk their lives by constructing makeshift boats and trying to sail to Miami in the good old U.S-home of the "great satan" capitalism. ;)
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may be the greens dont see millions of diesel smoking everyday.. >:(
today a diesel suv was just in front of me in the traffic crowd..even if he touches the pedal slightly I cant see anything other than a black cloud.. >:( >:(
ps: banjaxx your avatar definitely takes my vote :y :y
Hmm. I never understood why Guevara became the poster boy of trendy left. Indeed, I remain unconvinced that he was actually a nice bloke. ;)
Originally he was a doctor..after the revolution in Cuba, Castro ask him to stay
as a minister..but he refused ..and go for another revolution..
if you read his life , he devote all of it for the exploited,abused masses..
here is a quick link..unfortunately even whats written
here is not completely objective.. :-/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara
just think why after many years songs and many writings are done for him..
and for people like me he is a hero.. :y :y
But not for me, I'm afraid, Cem.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article2461399.ece
people dont have to believe in same things..
if you start a revolutinary act , its normal that you live in a struggle of live or die..and its normal that there is no mercy..
and if you look who trapped and killed him,
that organizations history is marked with blood..
assasinations, murders and many bad stories including my country.. :(
We have an expression in England, Cem:
"If you live by the sword, you die by the sword."
Guevara and the CIA? A 1-1 draw, I'd say. ;)
this expression is correct of course..
but the result of match for that times is actually,
dictators-cartels 1 , poor people 0 :'(
if Che was succesfull a chain reaction could result unbelievably:
cartels-dictators, drug barons who comandate south america could be defeated..
And remember Allende who distributed free milk for children is also bombed by CIA.. :(
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Those times are hard to understand, Cem, as there was much secrecy. Essentially, both Guevara and Allende were Marxists. In the Cold War atmosphere of the time, the US was as worried about the threat of Marxism as the Iron Curtain countries were worried about the threat of capitalism. Guevara was instrumental in the establishment of the Russian nukes in Cuba and it was the nearest that the World has ever come to nuclear war. So it was unsurprising that the US took the view at the time, that these two people (among others) were undesirable. It was a time when clandestine actions, spying, assassinations and so on were commonplace on either side of the political spectrum. Probably the "dirtiest" time of the 20th century.
Personally, I could never have a Marxist as a hero, but then again maybe I'm just old-fashioned. ;) ;) ;D
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Those times are hard to understand, Cem, as there was much secrecy. Essentially, both Guevara and Allende were Marxists. In the Cold War atmosphere of the time, the US was as worried about the threat of Marxism as the Iron Curtain countries were worried about the threat of capitalism. Guevara was instrumental in the establishment of the Russian nukes in Cuba and it was the nearest that the World has ever come to nuclear war. So it was unsurprising that the US took the view at the time, that these two people (among others) were undesirable. It was a time when clandestine actions, spying, assassinations and so on were commonplace on either side of the political spectrum. Probably the "dirtiest" time of the 20th century.
Personally, I could never have a Marxist as a hero, but then again maybe I'm just old-fashioned. ;) ;) ;D
so am I :y
and for the US.. the last time they worried about Saddam , nearly 1 million people died ;D
Hope they dont worry for us ;D :y
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may be the greens dont see millions of diesel smoking everyday.. >:(
today a diesel suv was just in front of me in the traffic crowd..even if he touches the pedal slightly I cant see anything other than a black cloud.. >:( >:(
ps: banjaxx your avatar definitely takes my vote :y :y
cheers cem - i feel a revolution in the air - thought i'd summon the spirit of Che!!!
a lot of garbage has been written about the man and the myth - i'm with you Cem he stood up for the oppressed and the disadvantaged - fighting to give 3rd world poor the right to an education and health care - one of the true heroes (there are very few) :y :y :y
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may be the greens dont see millions of diesel smoking everyday.. >:(
today a diesel suv was just in front of me in the traffic crowd..even if he touches the pedal slightly I cant see anything other than a black cloud.. >:( >:(
ps: banjaxx your avatar definitely takes my vote :y :y
cheers cem - i feel a revolution in the air - thought i'd summon the spirit of Che!!!
a lot of garbage has been written about the man and the myth - i'm with you Cem he stood up for the oppressed and the disadvantaged - fighting to give 3rd world poor the right to an education and health care - one of the true heroes (there are very few) :y :y :y
:y :y :y
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They are mainly good to drive cars
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Those times are hard to understand, Cem, as there was much secrecy. Essentially, both Guevara and Allende were Marxists. In the Cold War atmosphere of the time, the US was as worried about the threat of Marxism as the Iron Curtain countries were worried about the threat of capitalism. Guevara was instrumental in the establishment of the Russian nukes in Cuba and it was the nearest that the World has ever come to nuclear war. So it was unsurprising that the US took the view at the time, that these two people (among others) were undesirable. It was a time when clandestine actions, spying, assassinations and so on were commonplace on either side of the political spectrum. Probably the "dirtiest" time of the 20th century.
Personally, I could never have a Marxist as a hero, but then again maybe I'm just old-fashioned. ;) ;) ;D
so am I :y
and for the US.. the last time they worried about Saddam , nearly 1 million people died ;D
Hope they dont worry for us ;D :y
Cem & Banjaax, the OOF Marx Brothers! ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Those times are hard to understand, Cem, as there was much secrecy. Essentially, both Guevara and Allende were Marxists. In the Cold War atmosphere of the time, the US was as worried about the threat of Marxism as the Iron Curtain countries were worried about the threat of capitalism. Guevara was instrumental in the establishment of the Russian nukes in Cuba and it was the nearest that the World has ever come to nuclear war. So it was unsurprising that the US took the view at the time, that these two people (among others) were undesirable. It was a time when clandestine actions, spying, assassinations and so on were commonplace on either side of the political spectrum. Probably the "dirtiest" time of the 20th century.
Personally, I could never have a Marxist as a hero, but then again maybe I'm just old-fashioned. ;) ;) ;D
so am I :y
and for the US.. the last time they worried about Saddam , nearly 1 million people died ;D
Hope they dont worry for us ;D :y
Cem & Banjaax, the OOF Marx Brothers! ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D
:) Happy to find some other Marx brothers here :y
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Those times are hard to understand, Cem, as there was much secrecy. Essentially, both Guevara and Allende were Marxists. In the Cold War atmosphere of the time, the US was as worried about the threat of Marxism as the Iron Curtain countries were worried about the threat of capitalism. Guevara was instrumental in the establishment of the Russian nukes in Cuba and it was the nearest that the World has ever come to nuclear war. So it was unsurprising that the US took the view at the time, that these two people (among others) were undesirable. It was a time when clandestine actions, spying, assassinations and so on were commonplace on either side of the political spectrum. Probably the "dirtiest" time of the 20th century.
Personally, I could never have a Marxist as a hero, but then again maybe I'm just old-fashioned. ;) ;) ;D
so am I :y
and for the US.. the last time they worried about Saddam , nearly 1 million people died ;D
Hope they dont worry for us ;D :y
Cem & Banjaax, the OOF Marx Brothers! ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
vive la revolution comrades!!!
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Green cars are not so green. Prius for instance. Ingredients for the batteries are mined in Canada (if i recal correctly) then shipped to the Far East for production. Then there's the diposal of said batteries.
Remember the M5 V's Prius saga on top gear. I rest on your face Greenies :P :P
If you care to dig deeper, there's lots to find out about so called green cars ;)
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Che was a real cool dude etc.but he helped to create the "socialist utopia" in Cuba,where the citizens arent allowed to leave the country because if they do they wont come back,and many of them risk their lives by constructing makeshift boats and trying to sail to Miami in the good old U.S-home of the "great satan" capitalism. ;)
......stickin' out big lad - the following might shed a bit of light on that.....
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQcUkd1w_TY[/media]
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Che was a real cool dude etc.but he helped to create the "socialist utopia" in Cuba,where the citizens arent allowed to leave the country because if they do they wont come back,and many of them risk their lives by constructing makeshift boats and trying to sail to Miami in the good old U.S-home of the "great satan" capitalism. ;)
......stickin' out big lad - the following might shed a bit of light on that.....
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQcUkd1w_TY[/media]
Great link, Zulu. :y
Definitely not a nice bloke. >:(
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Green cars are not so green. Prius for instance. Ingredients for the batteries are mined in Canada (if i recal correctly) then shipped to the Far East for production. Then there's the diposal of said batteries.
Remember the M5 V's Prius saga on top gear. I rest on your face Greenies :P :P
If you care to dig deeper, there's lots to find out about so called green cars ;)
The comparison in relation to the BMW was flawed as the Prius was never designed to perform in this way and it was naughty for that programme to suggest that it was a valid test. It was a piece tarted up for the sake of visual impact alone.
Concerning the material for the batteries Pete, may I refer you to the following?
On a similar vein (no pun intended)
Put Sudbury, Canada (SAS / MAN border) into google earth and look at the surrounding moonscape.
Sudbury is the site of one of the main nickel smelters and the pollutants from the flue have killed off all vegetation for 100's of miles, you can even guess the direction of the prevailing winds from the pics.
I worked at the nickel mine in Flin Flon just south of Sudbury and it is almost desert going north towards the smelter.
Add the environmental impact of shipping the nickel to the UK for processing, then on to Japan for turning into batteries, then back to europe fitted into Prius cars etc and the 'Green' ticket looks somewhat kahki.
Concerning the material for the batteries you might want to look at this Matchless;
http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-417227/Toyota-factory.html
There was, and still is, a lot of black propaganda surrounding this issue. The point is that at least an alternative is being tried, it's a small step on the journey.
This is why I said before that the 'green' label unfairly saddles the car with something that the Prius or any other low emission can't sustain, as the nature of the final product will always have an environmental impact. :y It's still a reasonable effort however :y :y
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Che was a real cool dude etc.but he helped to create the "socialist utopia" in Cuba,where the citizens arent allowed to leave the country because if they do they wont come back,and many of them risk their lives by constructing makeshift boats and trying to sail to Miami in the good old U.S-home of the "great satan" capitalism. ;)
......stickin' out big lad - the following might shed a bit of light on that.....
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQcUkd1w_TY[/media]
Great link, Zulu. :y
Definitely not a nice bloke. >:(
i'm surprised you fall into the trap of condemning a mans behaviour without looking at the circumstances - if i was at war and killed an enemy - would that make me a murderer? you have to remember he lived an extraordinary life, fighting injustice, fighting to relieve people of poverty and overthrow tyrannical governments with guerilla warfare - its not pleasant, never has been and never will be - sometimes the ends justify the means. i'd put him up with any great leader you care to mention.
how many died under churchills orders? or blairs? or thatchers?
seems that the ends justify the means in some causes.
we have difficulty in judging a man so single minded in purpose and action as to be obsessive and insane to our eyes, we who live in modern western society - built on the sweat and labour of the oppressed Che spent his life defending
wow.......we've really gone off topic on this one - i just thought the 10 worst cars were actually some of the best!! :y :y
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Che was a real cool dude etc.but he helped to create the "socialist utopia" in Cuba,where the citizens arent allowed to leave the country because if they do they wont come back,and many of them risk their lives by constructing makeshift boats and trying to sail to Miami in the good old U.S-home of the "great satan" capitalism. ;)
......stickin' out big lad - the following might shed a bit of light on that.....
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQcUkd1w_TY[/media]
Great link, Zulu. :y
Definitely not a nice bloke. >:(
without looking at the circumstances - if i was at war and killed an enemy - would that make me a murderer? you have to remember he lived an extraordinary life, fighting injustice, fighting to relieve people of poverty and overthrow tyrannical governments with guerilla warfare - its not pleasant, never has been and never will be - sometimes the ends justify the means. i'd put him up with any great leader you care to mention.
how many died under churchills orders? or blairs? or thatchers?
seems that the ends justify the means in some causes.
we have difficulty in judging a man so single minded in purpose and action as to be obsessive and insane to our eyes, we who live in modern western society - built on the sweat and labour of the oppressed Che spent his life defending
wow.......we've really gone off topic on this one - i just thought the 10 worst cars were actually some of the best!! :y :y
...indeed bannjaxx - remember - the freedom of the open road to the soundtrack of a Northstar V8 - that's life worth living :y :y
i'm surprised you fall into the trap of condemning a mans behaviour
...forgive me for that, don't forget I've been a functionary of the state for more time than I care to remember, so condemnation lies well within my capability, however, I do have balance and don't accept that all things 'Whitehall' is necessarily the only tenet by which one's opinion should be guided.
you have to remember he lived an extraordinary life, fighting injustice, fighting to relieve people of poverty and overthrow tyrannical governments with guerrilla warfare
.....as many have done, there is a fine line however between fighting for justice and adopting a dictatorial stance when that ideal is questioned by the very people you're supposedly fighting for. This happens to some extent or other in most cases I would suggest.
blairs
...this self-serving gutless individual can never be justifiably referred to a leader worthy of note.
seems that the ends justify the means in some causes.
we have difficulty in judging a man so single minded in purpose and action as to be obsessive and insane to our eyes, we who live in modern western society - built on the sweat and labour of the oppressed Che spent his life defending
.......the assertion that the ends will always justify the means is open to question bannjaxx - it depends upon the values by which it is judged, and on many occasions, the use of this statement has lessened the impact of some very questionable acts.
When single-minded individuals decide to involve themselves in the overthrow of the status quo - for whatever reason- the risk of their becoming dictatorial and oppressive to their fellow countrymen/women is more than possible.
......did his contribution make any real difference - is Cuba considered to be a better place, a beacon for the net result of revolution? I'm unsure. I do admit that the shunning of the island by consecutive US administrations has not helped, but in general, the basic tenet of the communistic ideal will always fail to gain traction, as most people remain individuals, and where this ideal is enforced, the only people to suffer are those who are touted as being the reason for that very ideal to be held in the first place.
.......some of the most oppressive regimes in recent history have been established through the desire for communist revolution.
I do realise that I must appear to be rather an enigma, an establishment figure who can embrace some decidedly non-establishment ideas. Isn’t that what free thinking all about? That’s the advantage of living in a relatively free society where such thinking is not considered to be a threat to the state – for the moment at least.
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Che was a real cool dude etc.but he helped to create the "socialist utopia" in Cuba,where the citizens arent allowed to leave the country because if they do they wont come back,and many of them risk their lives by constructing makeshift boats and trying to sail to Miami in the good old U.S-home of the "great satan" capitalism. ;)
......stickin' out big lad - the following might shed a bit of light on that.....
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQcUkd1w_TY[/media]
sorry Zulu but this film really neglect what he was trying to do.. and judging him only from their point of view.. :(
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Can I remind, before Castro and Che, Cuba was a place for some rich(as origin is known I dont mention here) to satisfy their any kind of pleasures >:(
and an island which they can abuse how they want..And was managed by who, a real dictator .. >:(
And now look Cuba... At least they can have free health and educational services and dont live as slaves of rich..And I must here really note their health services are above many countries..including mine.. :-/
As usual all west media attack them with every opportunity.. ;D
And another fact: those who escape from Cuba
question: who used them , the group who killed Kennedy.. >:(
And I must add, US tried every possible effort to squeeze their neck >:(
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Che was a real cool dude etc.but he helped to create the "socialist utopia" in Cuba,where the citizens arent allowed to leave the country because if they do they wont come back,and many of them risk their lives by constructing makeshift boats and trying to sail to Miami in the good old U.S-home of the "great satan" capitalism. ;)
......stickin' out big lad - the following might shed a bit of light on that.....
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQcUkd1w_TY[/media]
sorry Zulu but this film really neglect what he was trying to do.. and judging him only from their point of view.. :(
...that's right cem but it's as valid as the many films supporting him :y
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Can I remind, before Castro and Che, Cuba was a place for some rich(as origin is known I dont mention here) to satisfy their any kind of pleasures >:(
and an island which they can abuse how they want..And was managed by who, a real dictator .. >:(
And now look Cuba... At least they can have free health and educational services and dont live as slaves of rich..And I must here really note their health services are above many countries..including mine.. :-/
As usual all west media attack them with every opportunity.. ;D
And another fact: those who escape from Cuba
question: who used them , the group who killed Kennedy.. >:(
And I must add, US tried every possible effort to squeeze their neck >:(
....I quite agree cem the people of Cuba were exploited just as much under the Battista regime but they're not exactly free under the present one.
Dissent within that country is harshly dealt with - it's how dictatorial regimes survive.
The US did indeed place unfair constraints on sensible relations with the country, this was wrong, but it also played into the hands of Castro - supporting the notion that everything western was bad.
I have to say that the majority of people leaving the island, in very dangerous circumstances, seemed to be doing so for their own purposes and not not the good of others :y
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3644814/Cuba-wont-shed-a-tear-for-Fidel-Castro.html
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fact is you cant find any real objective news on any country which the media groups dont accept.. :(
and another fact is unfortunately media dont care to be objective on subjects like that..
its similiar as finding an alive bunny living between carnivores.. :-/
remember the film matrix 1 ..there were many messages embedded for the one whose interested..
briefly it says the perception depends what you are given..
as from my previous posts, effecting human behaviour ,ideas, thoughts is proven to be a subject of science..
and sometimes as simple as the magician do.. they just made you look at the different point and see the expected..
and sometimes even we dont want to see the naked reality..
I myself was living in dreams of a good life with a good job and salary until I finish the university.. ;D ;D
Then I start to realise after some jobless years without money and in need of help from the parents..
Then some very hard jobs for many years that I rarely see my home and bed..
And I see that we are trained and educated for a very civilised and ideal life style which was not existent.. >:(
I hope with my limited English I could tell what I mean :-/
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Che was a real cool dude etc.but he helped to create the "socialist utopia" in Cuba,where the citizens arent allowed to leave the country because if they do they wont come back,and many of them risk their lives by constructing makeshift boats and trying to sail to Miami in the good old U.S-home of the "great satan" capitalism. ;)
......stickin' out big lad - the following might shed a bit of light on that.....
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQcUkd1w_TY[/media]
Great link, Zulu. :y
Definitely not a nice bloke. >:(
without looking at the circumstances - if i was at war and killed an enemy - would that make me a murderer? you have to remember he lived an extraordinary life, fighting injustice, fighting to relieve people of poverty and overthrow tyrannical governments with guerilla warfare - its not pleasant, never has been and never will be - sometimes the ends justify the means. i'd put him up with any great leader you care to mention.
how many died under churchills orders? or blairs? or thatchers?
seems that the ends justify the means in some causes.
we have difficulty in judging a man so single minded in purpose and action as to be obsessive and insane to our eyes, we who live in modern western society - built on the sweat and labour of the oppressed Che spent his life defending
wow.......we've really gone off topic on this one - i just thought the 10 worst cars were actually some of the best!! :y :y
...indeed bannjaxx - remember - the freedom of the open road to the soundtrack of a Northstar V8 - that's life worth living :y :y
i'm surprised you fall into the trap of condemning a mans behaviour
...forgive me for that, don't forget I've been a functionary of the state for more time than I care to remember, so condemnation lies well within my capability, however, I do have balance and don't accept that all things 'Whitehall' is necessarily the only tenet by which one's opinion should be guided.
you have to remember he lived an extraordinary life, fighting injustice, fighting to relieve people of poverty and overthrow tyrannical governments with guerrilla warfare
.....as many have done, there is a fine line however between fighting for justice and adopting a dictatorial stance when that ideal is questioned by the very people you're supposedly fighting for. This happens to some extent or other in most cases I would suggest.
blairs
...this self-serving gutless individual can never be justifiably referred to a leader worthy of note.
seems that the ends justify the means in some causes.
we have difficulty in judging a man so single minded in purpose and action as to be obsessive and insane to our eyes, we who live in modern western society - built on the sweat and labour of the oppressed Che spent his life defending
.......the assertion that the ends will always justify the means is open to question bannjaxx - it depends upon the values by which it is judged, and on many occasions, the use of this statement has lessened the impact of some very questionable acts.
When single-minded individuals decide to involve themselves in the overthrow of the status quo - for whatever reason- the risk of their becoming dictatorial and oppressive to their fellow countrymen/women is more than possible.
......did his contribution make any real difference - is Cuba considered to be a better place, a beacon for the net result of revolution? I'm unsure. I do admit that the shunning of the island by consecutive US administrations has not helped, but in general, the basic tenet of the communistic ideal will always fail to gain traction, as most people remain individuals, and where this ideal is enforced, the only people to suffer are those who are touted as being the reason for that very ideal to be held in the first place.
.......some of the most oppressive regimes in recent history have been established through the desire for communist revolution.
I do realise that I must appear to be rather an enigma, an establishment figure who can embrace some decidedly non-establishment ideas. Isn’t that what free thinking all about? That’s the advantage of living in a relatively free society where such thinking is not considered to be a threat to the state – for the moment at least.
i agree with most of what you say Zulu - as usual you're irritatingly well balanced and fair !! ;D ;D :y
i don't deny he wasn't a saint - but really, he wasn't in a position to be - i believe he often stated that to overthrow a regime you can't do it without violence(it was much more poetic than that - but i can't recall the exact quote) - i actually dont agree with that- i believe you can overthrow dictatorships without bloodshed - it just hasn't happened yet (to my knowledge - i'm prepared to be wrong on that)
i'm not and have never been a marxist(despite waht nickbat'll tell you :y) - i remain impressed with Che Guaverra and his life, achievements and beliefs in what was right and wrong.
to me he's a folk hero alongside Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King.
you may disagree with his politics - you can't deny his heart and passion.
oh and Cem - you're right about media portrayals and how people are viewed in different parts of the world - i remember Mrs Thatcher referring to Mandela as a terrorist and Gen Pinochet a hero!!! one man's freedom fighter........ ::)
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fact is you cant find any real objective news on any country which the media groups dont accept.. :(
and another fact is unfortunately media dont care to be objective on subjects like that..
its similiar as finding an alive bunny living between carnivores.. :-/
remember the film matrix 1 ..there were many messages embedded for the one whose interested..
briefly it says the perception depends what you are given..
as from my previous posts, effecting human behaviour ,ideas, thoughts is proven to be a subject of science..
and sometimes as simple as the magician do.. they just made you look at the different point and see the expected..
and sometimes even we dont want to see the naked reality..
I myself was living in dreams of a good life with a good job and salary until I finish the university.. ;D ;D
Then I start to realise after some jobless years without money and in need of help from the parents..
Then some very hard jobs for many years that I rarely see my home and bed..
And I see that we are trained and educated for a very civilised and ideal life style which was not existent.. >:(
I hope with my limited English I could tell what I mean :-/
cem your English is cristal clear and I envy your ability to converse in a second (or more) language.
We are much closer in our appreciation of things than you might well imagine and in my case, I am honoured to be so :y :y
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fact is you cant find any real objective news on any country which the media groups dont accept.. :(
and another fact is unfortunately media dont care to be objective on subjects like that..
its similiar as finding an alive bunny living between carnivores.. :-/
remember the film matrix 1 ..there were many messages embedded for the one whose interested..
briefly it says the perception depends what you are given..
as from my previous posts, effecting human behaviour ,ideas, thoughts is proven to be a subject of science..
and sometimes as simple as the magician do.. they just made you look at the different point and see the expected..
and sometimes even we dont want to see the naked reality..
I myself was living in dreams of a good life with a good job and salary until I finish the university.. ;D ;D
Then I start to realise after some jobless years without money and in need of help from the parents..
Then some very hard jobs for many years that I rarely see my home and bed..
And I see that we are trained and educated for a very civilised and ideal life style which was not existent.. >:(
I hope with my limited English I could tell what I mean :-/
cem your English is cristal clear and I envy your ability to converse in a second (or more) language.
We are much closer in our appreciation of things than you might well imagine and in my case, I am honoured to be so :y :y
hear hear :y :y
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Martin Luther King and Ghandi are both big heros of mine(didnt Ghandi overthrow a type of regime without violence?),I wouldnt mention either Mandela or guevarra in the same sentence as either of them. ;)
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fact is you cant find any real objective news on any country which the media groups dont accept.. :(
and another fact is unfortunately media dont care to be objective on subjects like that..
its similiar as finding an alive bunny living between carnivores.. :-/
remember the film matrix 1 ..there were many messages embedded for the one whose interested..
briefly it says the perception depends what you are given..
as from my previous posts, effecting human behaviour ,ideas, thoughts is proven to be a subject of science..
and sometimes as simple as the magician do.. they just made you look at the different point and see the expected..
and sometimes even we dont want to see the naked reality..
I myself was living in dreams of a good life with a good job and salary until I finish the university.. ;D ;D
Then I start to realise after some jobless years without money and in need of help from the parents..
Then some very hard jobs for many years that I rarely see my home and bed..
And I see that we are trained and educated for a very civilised and ideal life style which was not existent.. >:(
I hope with my limited English I could tell what I mean :-/
cem your English is cristal clear and I envy your ability to converse in a second (or more) language.
We are much closer in our appreciation of things than you might well imagine and in my case, I am honoured to be so :y :y
:) :)
and I'm also honoured sir :y :y
Thank you :y :y
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i agree with most of what you say Zulu - as usual you're irritatingly well balanced and fair !! ;D ;D :y
i don't deny he wasn't a saint - but really, he wasn't in a position to be - i believe he often stated that to overthrow a regime you can't do it without violence(it was much more poetic than that - but i can't recall the exact quote) - i actually dont agree with that- i believe you can overthrow dictatorships without bloodshed - it just hasn't happened yet (to my knowledge - i'm prepared to be wrong on that)
i'm not and have never been a marxist(despite waht nickbat'll tell you :y) - i remain impressed with Che Guaverra and his life, achievements and beliefs in what was right and wrong.
to me he's a folk hero alongside Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King.
you may disagree with his politics - you can't deny his heart and passion.
oh and Cem - you're right about media portrayals and how people are viewed in different parts of the world - i remember Mrs Thatcher referring to Mandela as a terrorist and Gen Pinochet a
....really bannjaxx - you've made me rather :-[ :-[ :-[ ;D ;D thank you for it all the same.
You're right of course, there is no black and white, no absolute right or wrong - I have been witness to that in the course of my career.
I have also discovered, as I've said to cem, that we all hold much more in common than we suspect and it's only after much upheaval that we realize it. :y :y
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Martin Luther King and Ghandi are both big heros of mine(didnt Ghandi overthrow a type of regime without violence?),I wouldnt mention either Mandela or guevarra in the same sentence as either of them. ;)
of course! - i told you i was wrong :y
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i agree with most of what you say Zulu - as usual you're irritatingly well balanced and fair !! ;D ;D :y
i don't deny he wasn't a saint - but really, he wasn't in a position to be - i believe he often stated that to overthrow a regime you can't do it without violence(it was much more poetic than that - but i can't recall the exact quote) - i actually dont agree with that- i believe you can overthrow dictatorships without bloodshed - it just hasn't happened yet (to my knowledge - i'm prepared to be wrong on that)
i'm not and have never been a marxist(despite waht nickbat'll tell you :y) - i remain impressed with Che Guaverra and his life, achievements and beliefs in what was right and wrong.
to me he's a folk hero alongside Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King.
you may disagree with his politics - you can't deny his heart and passion.
oh and Cem - you're right about media portrayals and how people are viewed in different parts of the world - i remember Mrs Thatcher referring to Mandela as a terrorist and Gen Pinochet a
....really bannjaxx - you've made me rather :-[ :-[ :-[ ;D ;D thank you for it all the same.
You're right of course, there is no black and white, no absolute right or wrong - I have been witness to that in the course of my career.
I have also discovered, as I've said to cem, that we all hold much more in common than we suspect and it's only after much upheaval that we realize it. :y :y
thats it - Zulu77 for PM!!!!! :y :y
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Martin Luther King and Ghandi are both big heros of mine(didnt Ghandi overthrow a type of regime without violence?),I wouldnt mention either Mandela or guevarra in the same sentence as either of them. ;)
...you're cookin' there albs :y :y
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Bannjaxx: i'm not and have never been a marxist(despite waht nickbat'll tell you :y) -
Listen, Sunshine, you have to be a Marxist otherwise my Marx Brothers' quip falls flat on its face! ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Banjaxx you see, we are in trouble.. and if you leave me alone ;D ;D ;D
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Blimey this beats even my efforts to high jack a thread! :o :o :o :D :D
I started to read the thread about the top 10 worst cars, and I have come back on tonight to find out it is now all about Marxists ( :y :y :y) :D :D ;)
Well done, I'm impressed! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) :y :y
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Blimey this beats even my efforts to high jack a thread! :o :o :o :D :D
I started to read the thread about the top 10 worst cars, and I have come back on tonight to find out it is now all about Marxists ( :y :y :y) :D :D ;)
Well done, I'm impressed! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) :y :y
;D ;D :y
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Blimey this beats even my efforts to high jack a thread! :o :o :o :D :D
I started to read the thread about the top 10 worst cars, and I have come back on tonight to find out it is now all about Marxists ( :y :y :y) :D :D ;)
Well done, I'm impressed! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) :y :y
..thank's very much Ms Zoom - we aim to please 8-) 8-) :y
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Blimey this beats even my efforts to high jack a thread! :o :o :o :D :D
I started to read the thread about the top 10 worst cars, and I have come back on tonight to find out it is now all about Marxists ( :y :y :y) :D :D ;)
Well done, I'm impressed! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) :y :y
..thank very much Ms Zoom - we aim to please 8-) 8-) :y
Well you never disappoint Zulu!! :D :D 8-) 8-) 8-) ;)
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Bannjaxx: i'm not and have never been a marxist(despite waht nickbat'll tell you :y) -
Listen, Sunshine, you have to be a Marxist otherwise my Marx Brothers' quip falls flat on its face! ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D if Cem's Karl Marx - i'll be Groucho :y
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Blimey this beats even my efforts to high jack a thread! :o :o :o :D :D
I started to read the thread about the top 10 worst cars, and I have come back on tonight to find out it is now all about Marxists ( :y :y :y) :D :D ;)
Well done, I'm impressed! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) :y :y
..thank very much Ms Zoom - we aim to please 8-) 8-) :y
Well you never disappoint Zulu!! :D :D 8-) 8-) 8-) ;)
OOF - Off-topic, Outraged Fisticuffs :y :y
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Bannjaxx: i'm not and have never been a marxist(despite waht nickbat'll tell you :y) -
Listen, Sunshine, you have to be a Marxist otherwise my Marx Brothers' quip falls flat on its face! ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D if Cem's Karl Marx - i'll be Groucho :y
ok how is that..
"workers of all countries , unite" :y
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Bannjaxx: i'm not and have never been a marxist(despite waht nickbat'll tell you :y) -
Listen, Sunshine, you have to be a Marxist otherwise my Marx Brothers' quip falls flat on its face! ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D if Cem's Karl Marx - i'll be Groucho :y
ok how is that..
"workers of all countries , unite" :y
Power to the People Comrade Cem!! :y :y
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Bannjaxx: i'm not and have never been a marxist(despite waht nickbat'll tell you :y) -
Listen, Sunshine, you have to be a Marxist otherwise my Marx Brothers' quip falls flat on its face! ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D if Cem's Karl Marx - i'll be Groucho :y
ok how is that..
"workers of all countries , unite" :y
Power to the People Comrade Cem!! :y :y
Omega Workers Forum ;D :y
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Bannjaxx: i'm not and have never been a marxist(despite waht nickbat'll tell you :y) -
Listen, Sunshine, you have to be a Marxist otherwise my Marx Brothers' quip falls flat on its face! ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D if Cem's Karl Marx - i'll be Groucho :y
ok how is that..
"workers of all countries , unite" :y
Power to the People Comrade Cem!! :y :y
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaFA5vWktu8[/media]
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Cem - if you meant "who" is that : -
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J6OEEbZ9Ko[/media]
;D ;D
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Bannjaxx: i'm not and have never been a marxist(despite waht nickbat'll tell you :y) -
Listen, Sunshine, you have to be a Marxist otherwise my Marx Brothers' quip falls flat on its face! ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D if Cem's Karl Marx - i'll be Groucho :y
ok how is that..
"workers of all countries , unite" :y
Power to the People Comrade Cem!! :y :y
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaFA5vWktu8[/media]
remember i said Zulu77 for PM? well i'm taking it back ;D ;D
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I see ;D ;D
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Bannjaxx: i'm not and have never been a marxist(despite waht nickbat'll tell you :y) -
Listen, Sunshine, you have to be a Marxist otherwise my Marx Brothers' quip falls flat on its face! ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D if Cem's Karl Marx - i'll be Groucho :y
ok how is that..
"workers of all countries , unite" :y
Power to the People Comrade Cem!! :y :y
....The great only appear great because the workers are on their knees
....to each according to their need,from each according to their ability.
workers have nothing to lose but their chains
etc,etc......I used to love all that rhetoric when I was in my 20,s :y :)
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..and here's another good Marx Brothers' clip:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f01TK_VPAtA&feature=related[/media]
;D ;D
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..and here's another good Marx Brothers' clip:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f01TK_VPAtA&feature=related[/media]
;D ;D
comedy genius :y :y
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Bannjaxx: i'm not and have never been a marxist(despite waht nickbat'll tell you :y) -
Listen, Sunshine, you have to be a Marxist otherwise my Marx Brothers' quip falls flat on its face! ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D if Cem's Karl Marx - i'll be Groucho :y
ok how is that..
"workers of all countries , unite" :y
Power to the People Comrade Cem!! :y :y
....The great only appear great because the workers are on their knees
....to each according to their need,from each according to their ability.
workers have nothing to lose but their chains
etc,etc......I used to love all that rhetoric when I was in my 20,s :y :)
I still love it all now in my fifties, but I have got two Doctors, one of Politics one of History, who are Marxists! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
Marx and Engel's have suggested a great way forward, but it requires very brave politicians to try them out in the current capitalist western world which is still alive and kicking inspite of what Marx predicted. ::) ::) :'( :'(
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Bannjaxx: i'm not and have never been a marxist(despite waht nickbat'll tell you :y) -
Listen, Sunshine, you have to be a Marxist otherwise my Marx Brothers' quip falls flat on its face! ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D if Cem's Karl Marx - i'll be Groucho :y
ok how is that..
"workers of all countries , unite" :y
Power to the People Comrade Cem!! :y :y
....The great only appear great because the workers are on their knees
....to each according to their need,from each according to their ability.
workers have nothing to lose but their chains
etc,etc......I used to love all that rhetoric when I was in my 20,s :y :)
I still love it all now in my fifties, but I have got two Doctors, one of Politics one of History, who are Marxists! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
Marx and Engel's have suggested a great way forward, but it requires very brave politicians to try them out in the current capitalist western world which is still alive and kicking inspite of what Marx predicted. ::) ::) :'( :'(
...does that indicate the fundamental flaw in the Marxist ideal Ms Zoom? :-/ :-/
-
Bannjaxx: i'm not and have never been a marxist(despite waht nickbat'll tell you :y) -
Listen, Sunshine, you have to be a Marxist otherwise my Marx Brothers' quip falls flat on its face! ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D if Cem's Karl Marx - i'll be Groucho :y
ok how is that..
"workers of all countries , unite" :y
Power to the People Comrade Cem!! :y :y
....The great only appear great because the workers are on their knees
....to each according to their need,from each according to their ability.
workers have nothing to lose but their chains
etc,etc......I used to love all that rhetoric when I was in my 20,s :y :)
I still love it all now in my fifties, but I have got two Doctors, one of Politics one of History, who are Marxists! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
Marx and Engel's have suggested a great way forward, but it requires very brave politicians to try them out in the current capitalist western world which is still alive and kicking inspite of what Marx predicted. ::) ::) :'( :'(
...does that indicate the fundemental flaw in the Marxist ideal Ms Zoom? :-/ :-/
No, because Marx could not predict how long it would take before capitalism collapsed in on itself, which indeed very nearly transpired in the final months of 2008. It will happen as he predicted. It is not "if" but "when", and that will be when the masses finally loose patience with the system that alienates them from their creative self, for the benefit of the minority elite who will never allow equality. Only then will mankind be truly free to follow their spirit. 8-) 8-) 8-)
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Bannjaxx: i'm not and have never been a marxist(despite waht nickbat'll tell you :y) -
Listen, Sunshine, you have to be a Marxist otherwise my Marx Brothers' quip falls flat on its face! ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D if Cem's Karl Marx - i'll be Groucho :y
ok how is that..
"workers of all countries , unite" :y
Power to the People Comrade Cem!! :y :y
....The great only appear great because the workers are on their knees
....to each according to their need,from each according to their ability.
workers have nothing to lose but their chains
etc,etc......I used to love all that rhetoric when I was in my 20,s :y :)
I still love it all now in my fifties, but I have got two Doctors, one of Politics one of History, who are Marxists! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
Marx and Engel's have suggested a great way forward, but it requires very brave politicians to try them out in the current capitalist western world which is still alive and kicking inspite of what Marx predicted. ::) ::) :'( :'(
...does that indicate the fundemental flaw in the Marxist ideal Ms Zoom? :-/ :-/
No, because Marx could not predict how long it would take before capitalism collapsed in on itself, which indeed very nearly transpired in the final months of 2008. It will happen as he predicted. It is not "if" but "when", and that will be when the masses finally loose patience with the system that alienates them from their creative self, for the benefit of the minority elite who will never allow equality. Only then will mankind be truly free to follow their spirit. 8-) 8-) 8-)
If I might say Ms Zoom - [size=16]right on[/size] 8-) 8-) 8-) ( I'll still read a bit on Marx all the same ) ;) ;)
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Bannjaxx: i'm not and have never been a marxist(despite waht nickbat'll tell you :y) -
Listen, Sunshine, you have to be a Marxist otherwise my Marx Brothers' quip falls flat on its face! ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D if Cem's Karl Marx - i'll be Groucho :y
ok how is that..
"workers of all countries , unite" :y
Power to the People Comrade Cem!! :y :y
....The great only appear great because the workers are on their knees
....to each according to their need,from each according to their ability.
workers have nothing to lose but their chains
etc,etc......I used to love all that rhetoric when I was in my 20,s :y :)
I still love it all now in my fifties, but I have got two Doctors, one of Politics one of History, who are Marxists! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
Marx and Engel's have suggested a great way forward, but it requires very brave politicians to try them out in the current capitalist western world which is still alive and kicking inspite of what Marx predicted. ::) ::) :'( :'(
...does that indicate the fundemental flaw in the Marxist ideal Ms Zoom? :-/ :-/
No, because Marx could not predict how long it would take before capitalism collapsed in on itself, which indeed very nearly transpired in the final months of 2008. It willl happen as he predicted. It is not "if" but "when", and that will be when the masses finally loose patience with the system that alienates them from their creative self, for the benefit of the minority elite who will never allow equality. Only then will mankind be truly free to follow their spirit. 8-) 8-) 8-)
No, it won't, Lizzie.
Capitalism is the private ownership of the factors of production. Anyone who thinks that all private enterprises could ever be transferred to the state without violence (which is what would be required) is seriously deluded. OK, a few banks have been bailed out and states have bought part equity - that's not the end of capitalism. Indeed, capitalism will never end, since it is the economic scenario that most closely matches human nature. In essence, the harder you work, the more you shall receive. The socialist/Marxist stance, that every one is equal, assumes that each individual will put the same effort in to receive the same reward. Nice thought, but ignores many human frailties such as laziness and greed. A sponger will never work as hard as someone who has a moral conscience, or someone who wants more of the cake. If they get paid the same, despite the effort, the workers who have put in the extra effort (for whatever motivation) will work less hard and the system will reduce down to the lowest common denominator, i.e the sponger.
Capitalism (albeit regulated to reduce excesses) will always remain the prevailing system.
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Capitalism
(http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/dodge-charger/images/dodge-charger-1968a.jpg)
Comunism
(http://z.about.com/d/4wheeldrive/1/0/O/L/1/Alek_Ser_04LadaNiva_2RR.jpg)
Nice idea, but it just don't work, as nickbat said.
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Lizzie wrote: but I have got two Doctors, one of Politics one of History, who are Marxists!
But who pays for them? The state.
Who pays the state? The tax-payers.
Which countries have the highest tax revenues? Captalist countries.
The can afford to be airy-fairy Marxists as they don't actually produce anything, but rely on those who do to pay their income.
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and as Ron Burgundy rightly pointed out, Marxist/Communist states offer no choice. When you think about it, the ability to choose what you want as a reward for your labours, is in itself, a freedom. :y
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and as Ron Burgundy rightly pointed out, Marxist/Communist states offer no choice. When you think about it, the ability to choose what you want as a reward for your labours, is in itself, a freedom. :y
Yep :y
effort+reward=progress :y
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and as Ron Burgundy rightly pointed out, Marxist/Communist states offer no choice. When you think about it, the ability to choose what you want as a reward for your labours, is in itself, a freedom. :y
Yep :y
effort+reward=progress :y
Spot on, Ron! :y :y
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There is no political system which stifles and smothers the human spirit and creativity to the degree which Marxism does,although Muslim fundamentalism comes pretty close,which is why the people of the eastern bloc countries tore down the Berlin wall and overthrew the soviets,and why the Chinese people tried to do the same thing in the infamous Tianenman square incident and why,if you go to Cuba on holiday the locals will try to befriend you and con you into sponsoring them for a visitors visa to "visit"you in your capitalist country.They live in countries where there is little or no hope of achieving a better life no matter how hard they try.That is what Marxism has achieved in every country where it has been imposed.
It is almost beyond belief that seemingly educated people in this day and age can still teach Marxism as a worthwhile alternative to capitalism,They are imo,rebels without a clue,who havent moved on from the politics of the 6th form.
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Bannjaxx: i'm not and have never been a marxist(despite waht nickbat'll tell you :y) -
Listen, Sunshine, you have to be a Marxist otherwise my Marx Brothers' quip falls flat on its face! ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D if Cem's Karl Marx - i'll be Groucho :y
ok how is that..
"workers of all countries , unite" :y
Power to the People Comrade Cem!! :y :y
....The great only appear great because the workers are on their knees
....to each according to their need,from each according to their ability.
workers have nothing to lose but their chains
etc,etc......I used to love all that rhetoric when I was in my 20,s :y :)
I still love it all now in my fifties, but I have got two Doctors, one of Politics one of History, who are Marxists! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
Marx and Engel's have suggested a great way forward, but it requires very brave politicians to try them out in the current capitalist western world which is still alive and kicking inspite of what Marx predicted. ::) ::) :'( :'(
...does that indicate the fundemental flaw in the Marxist ideal Ms Zoom? :-/ :-/
No, because Marx could not predict how long it would take before capitalism collapsed in on itself, which indeed very nearly transpired in the final months of 2008. It willl happen as he predicted. It is not "if" but "when", and that will be when the masses finally loose patience with the system that alienates them from their creative self, for the benefit of the minority elite who will never allow equality. Only then will mankind be truly free to follow their spirit. 8-) 8-) 8-)
No, it won't, Lizzie.
Capitalism is the private ownership of the factors of production. Anyone who thinks that all private enterprises could ever be transferred to the state without violence (which is what would be required) is seriously deluded. OK, a few banks have been bailed out and states have bought part equity - that's not the end of capitalism. Indeed, capitalism will never end, since it is the economic scenario that most closely matches human nature. In essence, the harder you work, the more you shall receive. The socialist/Marxist stance, that every one is equal, assumes that each individual will put the same effort in to receive the same reward. Nice thought, but ignores many human frailties such as laziness and greed. A sponger will never work as hard as someone who has a moral conscience, or someone who wants more of the cake. If they get paid the same, despite the effort, the workers who have put in the extra effort (for whatever motivation) will work less hard and the system will reduce down to the lowest common denominator, i.e the sponger.
Capitalism (albeit regulated to reduce excesses) will always remain the prevailing system.
all answers to your statements and detailed explanations are already inside "das capital".. :y
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Cem wrote: "all answers to your statements and detailed explanations are already inside "das capital"..
Not sure that a book written 142 years ago can tell me much about today's society. Besides which, capitalism has thrived since he wrote it. ;) ;D
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Cem wrote: "all answers to your statements and detailed explanations are already inside "das capital"..
Not sure that a book written 142 years ago can tell me much about today's society. Besides which, capitalism has thrived since he wrote it. ;) ;D
"basically" economy politics and production relations
between the slave-owner or modern worker-boss relation has not changed since the last 3000 years ;D :y
and I dont think will change after..
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If we want to continue the workers existance of being under the thumb of capitalism then fair enough, forget change.
But if we want each and every human to be really free to fulfil their creative self from cradle to grave then change has to happen, with capitalism consigned to the dustbin of history. At present a child is born into its circumstances, as directed by the capitalist forces that have created an elistist system. A child in a poor household, although there will be lucky exceptions, will often not have the environment to study in, will not have the resourse available to advance their education to optinum levels, and certianly will not receive the best standard of teaching as available to the wealthy.
They will leave school never reaching their full potential at that stage, and be inserted into the system that forces you to work for minimal wages in the interests of the ruling elite. If they fall ill due to the pressures of work, there is the NHS to put them right, only for the purposes of them to return to the work that put themselves there in the first place.
That person goes through life having to accept what is; whatever the capitalist market dictates of them. Whatever taxes they are asked to pay, they have to pay it. Whatever it costs to live they have to pay it, or starve. The system insists they carry on working for it, not what they could achieve if freed from the chains that limit their freedom, and knowledge, alienating them from their creative selves.
Plato in The Republic(380 BC), and more recently Kant in his An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment (1784) envisage a system where every man has the freedom to be free to obtain the best education and knowledge, away from the 'darkness' of ignorance, to achieve their best potential. Currently the capitalist system allows only for certain 'classes' of people to gain just enough knowledge to meet the demands of the production line, office or other work place to keep the capitalist machine working. This produces the profit that is then unequally distributed, favouring the elite, but not fairly rewarding those who have actually formed the means of production, and by the sweat of their brow created the very product that has produced the profit.
The ideal system is one were those who produce the profit can earn unlimited wages and own property legally obtained. The "supervisors" of the system, security services, civil services, and general support services are their to protect the workers and are paid for by them. The leaders or 'king philospers' provide the ideas, education, and moral leadership for the system, but are not allowed to earn money or own property, but are supported by the workers, in return for their services to this system.
To achieve this would require a revolution, and a whole shift in human thought, as yes it must be recognised as Hobbes (1588 - 1679) wrote man is born naturally greedy and if allowed to will commit war continually agains't fellow man. His ideas of a supreme leader as suggested in Leviathan(1651) could work in the previously described system, but with this 'leader' not enjoying any personal wealth, but the 'workers' enjoying great reward for the labours.
Yes this may seem like a Utopia, which can never be achieved, and probably will not in our life time, or that of our children, and their children. However, one day change away from the capitalist system will be required to create a far better standard of life for every man, woman, and child, than what will be then a discredited system. No more will a few be allowed to gain benefit at the expense of others (look around us now and ask are we happy with what we see??) All will be free as Locke (1632 - 1704) envisaged with full justice as Rawls (1921 - 2002) outlined in his A Theory of Justice (2008).
With a combination of these ideals, and especially considering those of Karl Marx (1818 - 1883) plus many more I cannot envisage now in 2008, we could build a far better world for us all away from the culture of greed and inequality, but have we got the moral courage and physical strength to see such change through? Possibly it will take an accumulation of political developments for all this to transpire, such as with the French Revolution of 1789.
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If we want to continue the workers existance of being under the thumb of capitalism then fair enough, forget change.
But if we want each and every human to be really free to fulfil their creative self from cradle to grave then change has to happen, with capitalism consigned to the dustbin of history. At present a child is born into its circumstances, as directed by the capitalist forces that have created an elistist system. A child in a poor household, although there will be lucky exceptions, will often not have the environment to study in, will not have the resourse available to advance their education to optinum levels, and certianly will not receive the best standard of teaching as available to the wealthy.
They will leave school never reaching their full potential at that stage, and be inserted into the system that forces you to work for minimal wages in the interests of the ruling elite. If they fall ill due to the pressures of work, there is the NHS to put them right, only for the purposes of them to return to the work that put themselves there in the first place.
That person goes through life having to accept what is; whatever the capitalist market dictates of them. Whatever taxes they are asked to pay, they have to pay it. Whatever it costs to live they have to pay it, or starve. The system insists they carry on working for it, not what they could achieve if freed from the chains that limit their freedom, and knowledge, alienating them from their creative selves.
Plato in The Republic(380 BC), and more recently Kant in his An Answer to the Question: What is Enlightenment (1784) envisage a system where every man has the freedom to be free to obtain the best education and knowledge, away from the 'darkness' of ignorance, to achieve their best potential. Currently the capitalist system allows only for certain 'classes' of people to gain just enough knowledge to meet the demands of the production line, office or other work place to keep the capitalist machine working. This produces the profit that is then unequally distributed, favouring the elite, but not fairly rewarding those who have actually formed the means of production, and by the sweat of their brow created the very product that has produced the profit.
The ideal system is one were those who produce the profit can earn unlimited wages and own property legally obtained. The "supervisors" of the system, security services, civil services, and general support services are their to protect the workers and are paid for by them. The leaders or 'king philospers' provide the ideas, education, and moral leadership for the system, but are not allowed to earn money or own property, but are supported by the workers, in return for their services to this system.
To achieve this would require a revolution, and a whole shift in human thought, as yes it must be recognised as Hobbes (1588 - 1679) wrote man is born naturally greedy and if allowed to will commit war continually agains't fellow man. His ideas of a supreme leader as suggested in Leviatan(1651) could work in the previously described system, but with this 'leader' not enjoying any personal wealth, but the 'workers' enjoying great reward for the labours.
Yes this may seem like a Utopia, which can never be achieved, and probably will not in our life time, or that of our children, and their children. However, one day change away from the capitalist system will be required to create a far better standard of life for every man, woman, and child, than what will be then a discredited system. No more will a few be allowed to gain benefit at the expense of others (look around us now and ask are we happy with what we see??) All will be free as Locke (1632 - 1704) envisaged with full justice as Rawls (1921 - 2002) outlined in his A Theory of Justice (2008).
With a combination of these ideals, and especially considering those of Karl Marx (1818 - 1883) plus many more I cannot envisage now in 2008, we could build a far better world for us all away from the culture of greed and inequality, but have we got the moral courage and physical strength to see such change through? Possibly it will take an accumulation of political developments for all this to transpire, such as with the French Revolution of 1789.
Excellent.. :y :y :y :y :y