Omega Owners Forum

Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Nickbat on 03 September 2009, 00:57:57

Title: Car cloning - call for more action
Post by: Nickbat on 03 September 2009, 00:57:57
This seems reasonable to me: :y

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8234995.stm

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Car cloning - call for more action
Post by: Turk on 03 September 2009, 01:00:40
Something needs to be done for sure  :y
Title: Re: Car cloning - call for more action
Post by: Vamps on 03 September 2009, 01:16:45
Only glanced an the article.  However car cloning is very easy, particularly with older/classic cars, I have seen car log books/ identities sold on ebay so all you need to do is acquire a similar vehicle and change the plates and numbers.  With classic cars I have often wondered how easy it is to do.  You can even buy a wreck, acquire a better version and change identities.  Even easier with the likes of MG or Mini's where you can buy new body shells. :-X
Title: Re: Car cloning - call for more action
Post by: KillerWatt on 03 September 2009, 11:41:59
Cloning (or ringing as it was called in my day) isn't just about changing the engine & chassis numbers if you are doing the job properly.
Just about everything (interior, wiring loom, glass, etc) all end up relating back to the car in some small way. I will concede however that once the engine & chassis numbers are gone, then any further evidence (such as the wiring loom) becomes purely circumstantial.
Title: Re: Car cloning - call for more action
Post by: Kevin Wood on 03 September 2009, 11:46:29
Agreed. Remember that the VIN is also coded into several ECUs on an Omega, let alone later cars.

There are valid reasons for swapping an ECU, of course, but it's all grist to the mill.

Who is going to pay for every 2nd hand car to be inspected whenever it changes hands though?

And heaven help us if it becomes the responsibility of the DVLA or VOSA. :-X

Kevin
Title: Re: Car cloning - call for more action
Post by: KillerWatt on 03 September 2009, 11:51:20
Quote
Who is going to pay for every 2nd hand car to be inspected whenever it changes hands though?
I was thinking that.
If we went the same way as France (as suggested in the story), then I'm afraid that would not eliminate the problem in the slightest because the car itself is not actually checked (just the car paperwork & ID of the buyer & seller are checked).
Title: Re: Car cloning - call for more action
Post by: Kevin Wood on 03 September 2009, 12:01:25
I know plenty of people who have have been through the DVLA "vehicle identity check" farce when registering kit cars and in all occasions they've gone to great lengths and not inconsiderable expense to present the car (not registered, so has to be trailered, etc...) only to have some jobsworth desk jockey who doesn't know one end of a car from the other check the VIN plate and nothing else.

I think Det Ch Insp Hooper would be better advised to knuckle down and focus on stopping the cars getting nicked to order in the first place.  ::)

Why does fighting crime these always days have to mean making life harder for the law abiding folk?

Kevin
Title: Re: Car cloning - call for more action
Post by: KillerWatt on 03 September 2009, 12:14:33
Quote
Why does fighting crime these always days have to mean making life harder for the law abiding folk?
Because when we forget another pointless bit of legislation (eg, SORN), the resultant stealth tax fines make the government a nice tidy sum.
Title: Re: Car cloning - call for more action
Post by: STMO999 on 03 September 2009, 12:16:31
Pretty nifty logging in/out there KW :y
Title: Re: Car cloning - call for more action
Post by: KillerWatt on 03 September 2009, 12:18:19
Quote
Pretty nifty logging in/out there KW :y
Yup, you gotta be quick to catch me  ;)
Title: Re: Car cloning - call for more action
Post by: Kevin Wood on 03 September 2009, 12:35:40
Quote
Quote
Pretty nifty logging in/out there KW :y
Yup, you gotta be quick to catch me  ;)
.. and me. ::)

Kevin
Title: Re: Car cloning - call for more action
Post by: Varche on 03 September 2009, 14:41:00
Some level of beauracratic involvement at point of sale/purchase might help and is probably inevitable. That is what happens in Spain and both parties hand over a sizeable amount of dosh to the government at the same time as a transfer tax.

Having been to places like Cyprus it wouldn't be hard for "International Police" to find UK stolen cars. I don't think there is the appetite for it. Another example of the everyday Joe getting lamped for the actions of criminals because the authorities don't do their job properly. For example all points of exit including containers could have vehicles checked.

I wonder if in the French system if the car in question already exists elsewhere on the database, do they then ask the vendor some hard questions? It would be hoped so.

Also wouldn't it be useful to see figures published of % per capita of cars stolen/ringed/never recovered etc for every EU country?

V
Title: Re: Car cloning - call for more action
Post by: STMO999 on 03 September 2009, 15:32:26
Quote
Some level of beauracratic involvement at point of sale/purchase might help and is probably inevitable. That is what happens in Spain and both parties hand over a sizeable amount of dosh to the government at the same time as a transfer tax.

Having been to places like Cyprus it wouldn't be hard for "International Police" to find UK stolen cars. I don't think there is the appetite for it. Another example of the everyday Joe getting lamped for the actions of criminals because the authorities don't do their job properly. For example all points of exit including containers could have vehicles checked.

I wonder if in the French system if the car in question already exists elsewhere on the database, do they then ask the vendor some hard questions? It would be hoped so.

Also wouldn't it be useful to see figures published of % per capita of cars stolen/ringed/never recovered etc for every EU country?

V

Of course there isn't, much bigger fish to fry.

Insurance companies aren't bothered that much either, they factor in how much they will have to pay out and put it on our premiums. It's called risk management.
Title: Re: Car cloning - call for more action
Post by: Kevin Wood on 03 September 2009, 15:33:38
Quote
Some level of beauracratic involvement at point of sale/purchase might help and is probably inevitable. That is what happens in Spain and both parties hand over a sizeable amount of dosh to the government at the same time as a transfer tax.

Having been to places like Cyprus it wouldn't be hard for "International Police" to find UK stolen cars. I don't think there is the appetite for it. Another example of the everyday Joe getting lamped for the actions of criminals because the authorities don't do their job properly. For example all points of exit including containers could have vehicles checked.

I wonder if in the French system if the car in question already exists elsewhere on the database, do they then ask the vendor some hard questions? It would be hoped so.

Also wouldn't it be useful to see figures published of % per capita of cars stolen/ringed/never recovered etc for every EU country?

V

Oh, FFS I hope nobody tells Gordon about that. ;)

Kevin
Title: Re: Car cloning - call for more action
Post by: Dishevelled Den on 03 September 2009, 15:55:37
Quote
This seems reasonable to me: :y

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8234995.stm

Any thoughts?



This path has been negoitated before - the following report is long but worth reading :y


http://www.popcenter.org/library/crimeprevention/volume_18/06-LaycockWebb-UKvehicle.pdf
Title: Re: Car cloning - call for more action
Post by: Del Boy on 03 September 2009, 15:58:59
I had my old Granada ringed, I had the real car but a fake logbook, someone else had a fake car and the real logbook to my car, he got his car taken and crushed and lost 4 grand I think.
Title: Re: Car cloning - call for more action
Post by: omegadan67 on 03 September 2009, 19:05:59
Quote
Cloning (or ringing as it was called in my day) isn't just about changing the engine & chassis numbers if you are doing the job properly.
Just about everything (interior, wiring loom, glass, etc) all end up relating back to the car in some small way. I will concede however that once the engine & chassis numbers are gone, then any further evidence (such as the wiring loom) becomes purely circumstantial.

Cloning and Ringing are 2 different acts of changing a cars identity
Cloning is a simpliar way and generally only requires you to change the number plates and move the car quickly
 
Ringing is where you buy a write off or damaged car and then steal a car that is the same model amd year as the 1 you,ve brought and you change the plates vin chassis numbers and sell it on
Title: Re: Car cloning - call for more action
Post by: KillerWatt on 03 September 2009, 20:05:22
Quote

Ringing is where you buy a write off or damaged car and then steal a car that is the same model amd year as the 1 you,ve brought and you change the plates vin chassis numbers and sell it on
Thanks for clarifying the exact definition of ringing for me, but please allow me to elucidate further for the other members here.

The term "ringing" is actually a slang term, the charge when you are stood in the dock is called theft  ;)
Title: Re: Car cloning - call for more action
Post by: gee-man on 05 September 2009, 20:49:08
hmmm