Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Nickbat on 28 February 2007, 17:16:52
-
Read this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6405051.stm
Makes you wonder what's going on. :o
-
Bloody hell :o :o......and in my area of the country. Thankfully I haven't experienced any of the "contaminated" petrol yet and certainly don't want to, but how do you know who's petrol is 100% reliable? I usually use either BP Ultimate or Sainsbury's super unleaded which weren't mentioned in the report, so hopefully are ok.
-
thank god I am a poor student and cannot afford fuel any more! ;D
-
On the radio (yes I can be an old git radio 2 listener), they hinted tescos/morrisons, but test inconclusive. Its said to cause the lamda to fail....
-
Very worrying peeps, sorry for you. Must be a little like Russian roulette. You will probably find that all the petrol companies use one supply depot. Up were i am it is at a place called Grangemouth. You can see the tankers from all different companies filling there.
We only have a Tesco petrol garage that supplies fuel in the local town. Its right next to the stable for the only horse. ;D
8-)
DaveL
-
Very worrying peeps, sorry for you. Must be a little like Russian roulette. You will probably find that all the petrol companies use one supply depot. Up were i am it is at a place called Grangemouth. You can see the tankers from all different companies filling there.
We only have a Tesco petrol garage that supplies fuel in the local town. Its right next to the stable for the only horse. ;D
8-)
DaveL
Yes i heard it on a local radio station this afternoon too......tescos and morrisons....were mentioned.
i have seen before a tesco's tanker on a forecourt of a shell garage......now he'd either popped in for some diesel or was filling their tanks :-/ And another option the tesco's tanker could have rented by shell.....and had shell fuel in it......or anybodies fuel in it :-/
-
My favourite comment:
[size=12]
The RAC said the problem seemed to be particularly affecting the oxygen sensors in vehicles made by Vauxhall, Peugeot, Citroen and Mercedes.[size=14][/size][/size]
No worries for Omega owners then... ;D
-
... i have seen before a tesco's tanker on a forecourt of a shell garage......
Too worrying (because);
1/ Low on fuel - Mr Range on mid-two figures, time to fill (normally).
2/ Before I'd heard of this I'd noted a huge (and dangerous) gaggle of cars, half blocking, the A52 this afternoon. I just thought, oh must be cheap Shell (and I would too, it runs well) but due to near accidents I missed the price thingy.
So, where to fill up??
-
Heard about this earlier don't go to tesco's anyway ;D
-
well after puttin £52 in on satuday at my local tesco, having said that i then went 150 miles on sunday and carried on using it for work this week and had no trouble at all...
i'm hopin i was lucky at my garage!
-
tesco apparetly deny any responsibility
who ever is responsibe could face big big £££££ :-/
-
was talking to a chap in enfield last night who has had 3 of his cars go down with knackered o2 sensors........ he's fuming
-
i bet :o
Heard just on the radio that there is now a shortage of O sensors so the pain just goes on. >:(
Advice from one of the motoring pundit's was to keep a sample of the contaminated fuel along with the receipts for it and the repairs. :o
Only happened to me once, touch wood, were i put petrol in diesel car. :-[
Cost a fortune to repair. :'(
8-)
DaveL
-
the company i used to work for used to suffer a member of staff putting unleaded in there nice shiney diesel ccompany car about once a month.
some numpty even managed to put unleaded in a merc sprinter van once. killed the pump , injectors , and all the sensors too :(
-
This doesn't add up......an O2 sensor failure does not give the symptoms described as it will default to a stored MAP and enter limp home mode......
I suspect the fuel is causing poor combustion resulting in excess O2 in the exhaust, this flags an O2 fault and the garage change it.....I would have thought that if you drained the fuel and ran the car....it would recover.....its probably more of a story about the incompitence of modern mechanics ;)
-
I think you're right on both counts.
Surely there aren't cars that have such wide authority on the EGO correction that it would cause them to stop running before giving up and going into limp home? There are reports of cars cutting out in the fast lane to protect their engines. Surely that's a bit of a drastic strategy to program into a management system?
I suspect that any emissions related event results in automatic changes of the O2 sensor at main dealers for risk of someone suddenly discovering a load of EU 3/4 compliant cars in the field that don't meet the required emissions standards.
Still, someone's going to make a killing supplying all the new Lambda sensors. Cue the conspiracy theorists. Already seen one newspaper article blaming terrorists!
Kevin
-
I'm quite pleased i decided not to sell my little BMX thats been sat in the shed for a while!!
-
This doesn't add up......an O2 sensor failure does not give the symptoms described as it will default to a stored MAP and enter limp home mode......
I suspect the fuel is causing poor combustion resulting in excess O2 in the exhaust, this flags an O2 fault and the garage change it.....I would have thought that if you drained the fuel and ran the car....it would recover.....its probably more of a story about the incompitence of modern mechanics ;)
I just reset edwardmickeys one on sat, and afaik, its still ok....
-
This is beginning to throw up some interesting stories. Here are two I found:
1. I have always filled up at Tesco in Sandhurst, this week my smart car broke down exactly like in your article, misfiring & juddering etc.
I took it to a garage and am now told it needs new engine costing £3500.00 plus VAT, which I cannot afford, so I am now without a car.
The Car had always been serviced by Mercedes and is less then 3 years old.
2. Have been filling in my Car from an independent petrol station, Cyma in North London. At the beginning of last week after I filled up I experienced a lack of power and misfiring. Took it to my garage where it was diagnosed having put the engine on the computer, that all my four oxygen sensors have been damaged. It was also found out that the level of engine oil had increased considerably, the result of unburned petrol going into the oil engine compartment. A very costly repair.
In case of 1, I think the garage is having a laugh. As far as 2. is concerned, could unburned fuel really find its way into the sump?
-
Yes....it can.....
Heres the scenario.......as far as I see it......and I have ignored the usual poor reporting from the press.....
1) You have faulty fuel
2) This fuel does not fully combust in the cylinder.
The result is that the O2 sensor sees air still in the exhaust gases and richens the mixture.....it still runs and the mixture is further richened.....this continues until a fault is logged and the ECU enters limp home mode but, the car still runs rough because this poor fuel wont burn properly.....no matter what the ECU does it cant get the fuel to ignite properly......
So, we now have a rich mixture, a rough running car and fault codes.
With a mixture that is not lighting you get bore wash......the fuel gets past the piston rings with the blow by gases (they dont seal perfectly, not on any engine!) and into the sump (used to happen a lot on carb cars hich ran to rich)....this makes the oil runny....cleans the internals quite well though....but the lubricating properties of the oil are now buggered and the moving surfaces are at risk...
So onto the lambda sensors......this is the area of poor diagnosis in my opinion.
Right.....we have two lambda sensors on all of the makes which are described as suffering lambda sensor failure, one before the cat and one after it....
The O2 sensor before the cat is saying there is oxygen still in the exhaust gases (plus unburnt fuel but, the O2 cant detect fuel....)....the unburnt fuel enters the stinking hot cat....and burns.......the post cat sensor now sees no O2 left in the exhaust gases.......it thinks every thing is ok.....
Mr 'I dont understand how a modern fuel injected engine works' mechanic (the most common type around it would appear!) comes along and looks at the fault codes.....they tell him that the two O2 sensors are giving different readings....he now thinks the pre-cat sensor is goosed....he drains the fuel (well he would, its plastered over the papers...) and puts fresh in.....starts the car up again...still rough, change the O2 sensor......start it again...still a bit rough but getting better....ow yes, thats fixed it.....(there will stil be some of the old fuel in the filter and fuel rail etc)....
So yes, I can understand how it can bugger an engine.....if you are stupid enough to keep driving with it running so badly (hey, its a Smart car.....how clever can they be....its the only car that can get lost in a trolley park....) as the knackered oil buggers the bearings etc.....
Imagine the joy of all the other garages who are now changing O2 sensors and fuel as a matter of course!
Bottom line is, its bloody hard to kill an O2 sensor.......and poor fuel wont do it......my biggest concern though.....is what is it doing to the CAT....
-
The other shocking thing about the Smart car is the £3500 for a strimmer engine......
-
Does that make sense to anybody......other than me?
-
Does that make sense to anybody......other than me?
Yes Mark, just read that through, makes perfect sense.
-
I've been saying at work (I work in an area that seems that suffer this) that I doubted that the lamdas were knackered, and just try a reset, but the idiots in my building believe their Merc dealers and the media more. 'dangle berries' to them.
-
I understand it - but no tests please or I will have to find something to baffle you with ;D
-
Sounds a good diagnosis Mark, what I'm wondering about is how many "dodgy" garages are going to capitalise on this situation and fit parts that are not required in an effort to bump up the repair bill >:(
-
Sounds a good diagnosis Mark, what I'm wondering about is how many "dodgy" garages are going to capitalise on this situation and fit parts that are not required in an effort to bump up the repair bill
Absolutely.
And I've seen reports now that fuel filters should be changed in addition to O2's, draining fuel tanks, etc.
Popped into a main dealer today to get a key cut and there was much fleecing going on!
Kevin
-
Makes perfect sense to me, Mark. Thanks.
-
Does that make sense to anybody......other than me?
Bottom line is, its bloody hard to kill an O2 sensor.......and poor fuel wont do it......my biggest concern though.....is what is it doing to the CAT....
Makes perfect sense to me, and you're right to ask "what is it doing to the CAT", I was always led to believe that raw or unburnt fuel would damage the palladium coating in the catalytic converter.
I guess we're only just seeing the begining of this, in about six to twelve months time, at the very least there will be a run on replacement CATS, not to mention replacement engines due to failed bearings.
-
The other shocking thing about the Smart car is the £3500 for a strimmer engine......
Serves 'em right for buying one in the first place ::)
-
I had been meaning to ask you about this Mark as I was thinking along the same lines as you have written... don't have to bother now! ;D
What likliehood another spate of cars suffering very poor running in a few weeks? Nice shiny new lambda sensors but completely :-Xed cats..?
My other thought is, I wonder what creative excuse they are going to come up with as acceptance of liability is not going to happen! :-/
-
I heard a report last night that stated that the AA had found very high levels of silicone in fuel they had tested. This can bugger up a Lambda sensor, although I have no idea how long it would take.
Certainly silicone sealant used incorrectly on an engine can clog up the sensor. Although, I'm sure that the "blowtorch" technique for cleaning the sensor would sort this out to an extent.
Mind you I think the press have been going through the periodic table combining chemicals to come up with speculation as to what could be causing the problem.
Apparently we'll find out later today.
-
Certainly silicone sealant used incorrectly on an engine can clog up the sensor. Although, I'm sure that the "blowtorch" technique for cleaning the sensor would sort this out to an extent.
Which is what hot exhaust agses will do......even a Forte dose would probably sort it....
-
I understood that the problem with silicone sealant was not the stuff itself but the gases given off during curing (Acetic acid IIRC?). It's supposed to be pretty inert once cured but if said gases get into the induction system they allegedly cause problems with Lambda sensors.
My other thought is, I wonder what creative excuse they are going to come up with as acceptance of liability is not going to happen!
Interestingly Tesco have put a statement on their web site:
We appreciate the inconvenience this is causing some customers and can assure them that if a problem with our fuel is confirmed we will do the right thing and act quickly to put it right.
Put their fuel right or their customers' cars right? I wonder...
Nothing on Morrisons site (where my fuel came from) but I got some satisfaction in watching their share price lose a few points yesterday.
They need to make up a story pretty damn quick. They must have an analysis of what was in that fuel by now. They could have run it up on a couple of test engines in a dyno cell and logged exactly what the failure mode was.
I guess they know full well and have done for some time (maybe even since before the hysteria picked up) but the lawyers are now debating over what they can admit to.
Kevin
-
Where there's blame . . . . . there's a claim! [smiley=smiley.gif]
-
Turns out my parents were picking up a new Corsa today from a small family run VX dealer, Spratleys in Mortimer near Aldermaston. They mentioned my fault and the advice was to fill with decent fuel, give it a bit of a spanking to clear the Lambda sensors as long as it's not running poorly and then get the codes reset. Popped round there this afternoon and £20.45 inc. VAT for a Tech 2 session to clear the codes.
Hopefully that's the end of it. They did say if it returns it's probably failure of the Lambda sensors. They certainly weren't as eager to dish out huge bills as the large main dealer I went to yesterday.
Kevin
-
Bottom line is, its bloody hard to kill an O2 sensor.......and poor fuel wont do it......my biggest concern though.....is what is it doing to the CAT....
Just heard on the radio.....its 'something'- forgot :-[ sulphate that being deposited on the O2 sensors thats killing them?? True? :-/
-
It's still hard to believe that something that simply causes the Lambda sensor to misread is causing cars to run so badly.
In my case it did what I would expect - trouble codes on the Lambda sensors but carried on running OK. Why are so many people having running problems though?
Unless the normal symptoms of running in limp home mode are being hyped up beyond belief.
Kevin
-
Am I the only one who remembers the Formula Shell fiasco in the early 80's that killed Vauxhall engines, almost en masse?
All due to the additive that was poured into the tankers by the drivers when they were being filled at the refinery.
I would lay short odds that its a similar thing this time round where the supermarkets are using lower quality fuel with some octane boosting fluid to get the fuel upto scratch, then getting the measuring jug wrong when adding it!
This would also account for the Tesco tanker in a Morrisons forecourt type scenario, methinks... ;)
HtH
B
-
There you go....silicon.....it forms Silicon Dioxide when burnt which forms a layer on the O2 sensor causing it to be unable to detect any O2.....the result.....a lean mix and very rough running....
You can clean it off the sensors though with the right solvent...ot if its still running, it will burn off with time
-
There you go....silicon.....it forms Silicon Dioxide when burnt which forms a layer on the O2 sensor causing it to be unable to detect any O2.....the result.....a lean mix and very rough running....
You can clean it off the sensors though with the right solvent...ot if its still running, it will burn off with time
Yep thats the thingy .... silicon sulphate :y
-
Am I the only one who remembers the Formula Shell fiasco in the early 80's that killed Vauxhall engines, almost en masse?
All due to the additive that was poured into the tankers by the drivers when they were being filled at the refinery.
I would lay short odds that its a similar thing this time round where the supermarkets are using lower quality fuel with some octane boosting fluid to get the fuel upto scratch, then getting the measuring jug wrong when adding it!
This would also account for the Tesco tanker in a Morrisons forecourt type scenario, methinks... ;)
HtH
B
No i remember.....coz my dad at the time had a new cavalier....his local garage was a shell garage....he complained in the end that his engine was going thro more oil than petrol.....iirc shell changed/withdraw the petrol.....and vx changed the valve seals for double seals......foc :y
-
Am I the only one who remembers the Formula Shell fiasco in the early 80's that killed Vauxhall engines, almost en masse?
All due to the additive that was poured into the tankers by the drivers when they were being filled at the refinery.
I would lay short odds that its a similar thing this time round where the supermarkets are using lower quality fuel with some octane boosting fluid to get the fuel upto scratch, then getting the measuring jug wrong when adding it!
This would also account for the Tesco tanker in a Morrisons forecourt type scenario, methinks... ;)
HtH
B
No i remember.....coz my dad at the time had a new cavalier....his local garage was a shell garage....he complained in the end that his engine was going thro more oil than petrol.....iirc shell changed/withdraw the petrol.....and vx changed the valve seals for double seals......foc :y
Was worse than just oil seals it actually burnt out valve seatings :o