Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: albitz on 20 September 2009, 21:24:41
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I have stated a few times on the forum that I think she was over rated and wasnt the great leader that most people on the right remember her to be.I read this article by Peter Hitchens today with interest,discuss ?
http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/debate/article-1214659/PETER-HITCHENS-Defeated-The-unions-running-Britain.html
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While Hitchens is a bit of a renegade and no lover of the Tory party as presently constituted I always enjoy his analysis.
To confine one's opinion on M T to this issue would be to do a disservice to a Premier who stirred the stodgy pot of British politics at a time when the country was left on its arse from yet another period of Liebour misrule.
Brussels was and always will be the bane of this nation and that sinister place has gained more control than is healthy over the fortunes of this nation. The sad thing is that her government didn't poke sufficient fingers into the glaring optics of that malevolent place once and for all at the time.
I remember her with fondness and it's a pity that she was surrounded by quite a few gutless bastards who had no stomach for a fight. She did go too far toward she end and when you make that number of enemies there's only one way to go.
Hitchins has his view, I have mine and it won't by swayed by his latest piece.
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I agree with some of what you say (as always Z) but I will always maintain that her sledgehammer which cracked the union nut so to speak,destroyed British Industry and left us a nation of waiters and chambermaids.If the whole coal industry hadnt been sacrificed on her altar in order to beat the lunatic Scargill,we wouldnt be paying ludicrous prices for imported coal for the new generation of coal powered power stations and held to ransome by all and sundry for our future energy needs.
I dont always agree with Hitchens but I greatly admire his independence of thought.Not an easy cross to bear in the U.K these days. :y
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That is one regret that I also have A, had those industries been properly nurtured and sensibly re-structured then perhaps we wouldn't be so dependent on ethereal services like banking and the financial markets to provide the lions share of the national wealth.
I do wish the word had come down regarding Scargill and certain others; they would have been washed up in no time at all as they were, in effect, dead men walking.
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I think he was given a lot more attention then he deserved tbh,he was a fruitcake and could have been dealt with in a way which didnt dominate the political landscape for a decade.Even his own wife saw through him eventually,I believe he now lives with a gullible lefty disciple and preaches to very small numbers of the converted to old style, head in the sand Marxists.
If this could have been foreseen the British industrial landscape could look so much different today,but I think she had a simplistic view of things - smash the unions and the future looks bright.
She was somewhat intellectually challanged imo.
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I agree with some of what you say (as always Z) but I will always maintain that her sledgehammer which cracked the union nut so to speak,destroyed British Industry and left us a nation of waiters and chambermaids.If the whole coal industry hadnt been sacrificed on her altar in order to beat the lunatic Scargill,we wouldnt be paying ludicrous prices for imported coal for the new generation of coal powered power stations and held to ransome by all and sundry for our future energy needs.
I dont always agree with Hitchens but I greatly admire his independence of thought.Not an easy cross to bear in the U.K these days. :y
You have to remember that it was only a short time after the miners strikes that new cheap coal supplies from the emerging European markets started to flood the UK. Polish coal, for example, was so cheap (even after transport) that our own output would never have been competitive. Additionally, it may be worth considering how many miners' lives have actually been saved, for the continuing production would no doubt have led to more deaths through underground accidents, emphysemia, and so on (and remember Aberfan?). OK, she didn't take on Scargill and the NUM for those reasons, but it is nevertheless a welcome legacy.
It was clear that the NUM and the unions in general were getting too big for their boots (remember Callaghan's tea meetings with the Union big bosses?).
The Unions were not, and never have been, democratic. They were rightly spawned when workers really were being exploited, but they couldn't adapt to the times and became a political menace. So, Mrs T took them on.
Oh, and you only need to look at the protests over Kingsnorth to realise that, even of we had all the cheap coal in the world, there would still be those that would try to stop us using it.
The future is nuclear. France knows it, Sweden knows it....we don't. >:(
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I agree with some of what you say (as always Z) but I will always maintain that her sledgehammer which cracked the union nut so to speak,destroyed British Industry and left us a nation of waiters and chambermaids.If the whole coal industry hadnt been sacrificed on her altar in order to beat the lunatic Scargill,we wouldnt be paying ludicrous prices for imported coal for the new generation of coal powered power stations and held to ransome by all and sundry for our future energy needs.
I dont always agree with Hitchens but I greatly admire his independence of thought.Not an easy cross to bear in the U.K these days. :y
You have to remember that it was only a short time after the miners strikes that new cheap coal supplies from the emerging European markets started to flood the UK. Polish coal, for example, was so cheap (even after transport) that our own output would never have been competitive. Additionally, it may be worth considering how many miners' lives have actually been saved, for the continuing production would no doubt have led to more deaths through underground accidents, emphysemia, and so on (and remember Aberfan?). OK, she didn't take on Scargill and the NUM for those reasons, but it is nevertheless a welcome legacy.
It was clear that the NUM and the unions in general were getting too big for their boots (remember Callaghan's tea meetings with the Union big bosses?).
The Unions were not, and never have been, democratic. They were rightly spawned when workers really were being exploited, but they couldn't adapt to the times and became a political menace. So, Mrs T took them on.
Oh, and you only need to look at the protests over Kingsnorth to realise that, even of we had all the cheap coal in the world, there would still be those that would try to stop us using it.
The future is nuclear. France knows it, Sweden knows it....we don't. >:(
Nick, at the moment Downing Street hardly knows what day of the fiiggin' week it is.
Damn then for the bunch of gutless incompetents that they are!
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I think he was given a lot more attention then he deserved tbh,he was a fruitcake and could have been dealt with in a way which didnt dominate the political landscape for a decade.Even his own wife saw through him eventually,I believe he now lives with a gullible lefty disciple and preaches to very small numbers of the converted to old style, head in the sand Marxists.
If this could have been foreseen the British industrial landscape could look so much different today,but I think she had a simplistic view of things - smash the unions and the future looks bright.She was somewhat intellectually challanged imo.
....at that time misbehaviour by some elements within the trades union had caused great concern for the then future economic survival of many core industries and this problem needed to be addressed - she got the ball rolling in a blunt way perhaps but off it went.
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I do agree with most of what both of you say,but I think it may be better to have some sort of home grown supply rather than having to completely rely on foriegn imports for the coal that we are going to use.Its isnt just about the coal of course,once that job was done the other heavy industries soon followed,so all the things we used to do best we didnt do at all,hence we now inport almost everything we buy.We couldnt buy British if we wanted to.We dont really make anything.In short,the job had to be done but I believe she threw the baby out with the bath water,and for what its worth,believe it or not so does Norman Tebbit. :y
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I do agree with most of what both of you say,but I think it may be better to have some sort of home grown supply rather than having to completely rely on foriegn imports for the coal that we are going to use.Its isnt just about the coal of course,once that job was done the other heavy industries soon followed,so all the things we used to do best we didnt do at all,hence we now inport almost everything we buy.We couldnt buy British if we wanted to.We dont really make anything.In short,the job had to be done but I believe she threw the baby out with the bath water,and for what its worth,believe it or not so does Norman Tebbit. :y
...I think that's a fair enough comment A, had wiser counsel been provided in a suitable format, the situation might well have been very different.
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The political graveyards are full of people who thought they could provide her with wise council Z.
Listening was never one of her strong points. ;) ;D
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We could certainly do with a Maggie now.
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The political graveyards are full of people who thought they could provide her with wise council Z.
Listening was never one of her strong points. ;) ;D
Her weak spot was good looking charismatic men I reckon she could have been turned by the right one.
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We could certainly do with a Maggie now.
You're not wrong there T, we badly need someone with balls before this entire country becomes a graveyard!
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We could certainly do with a Maggie now.
Why? there are no mines left to close down.... :( mind you, 25 years later things are a lot cleaner up here, but communities have collapsed..... :-/
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I would actually possibly agree tbh.If I think back on past leaders and which one of them could have a chance of doing something about this shambles ,she would be the only one who might have a chance.Although it could be that the level of sophisticated skullduggery employed in politics these days could result in her being eaten alive. :-/
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I would say that a lot of these 'advisors' would go to the wall very quickly in such circumstances and there would be a wholesale emptying of Whitehall and its associated lackeys for seconds. :y :y
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We could certainly do with a Maggie now.
Why? there are no mines left to close down.... :( mind you, 25 years later things are a lot cleaner up here, but communities have collapsed..... :-/
My home town had an NCB pit head just over a mile from the town centre. Yes, she messed up big time on the mines etc, but she got a lot of things right and had the "you want a fight, you got one !" when it was needed.
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We could certainly do with a Maggie now.
Why? there are no mines left to close down.... :( mind you, 25 years later things are a lot cleaner up here, but communities have collapsed..... :-/
My home town had an NCB pit head just over a mile from the town centre. Yes, she messed up big time on the mines etc, but she got a lot of things right and had the "you want a fight, you got one !" when it was needed.
....and that attitude is badly needed today.
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You know, I always felt that the UK itself was in a safe pair of hands when Mrs T was in charge. Like her or loathe her, I believe that she was a true patriot (and I don't mean that in a particularly jingoistic sense, I mean she just had the UK interests at heart).
These days, the political class are only in it for the money and most of them have an eye towards a top job in Brussels/Strasbourg. Where's that social champion Kinnock now, I wonder?
Oh yes, I remember now. >:(
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We could certainly do with a Maggie now.
Why? there are no mines left to close down.... :( mind you, 25 years later things are a lot cleaner up here, but communities have collapsed..... :-/
My home town had an NCB pit head just over a mile from the town centre. Yes, she messed up big time on the mines etc, but she got a lot of things right and had the "you want a fight, you got one !" when it was needed.
....and that attitude is badly needed today.
So who have we got that can do that?????
I can see Labour getting in again, because I can't see any alternative :'(
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You know, I always felt that the UK itself was in a safe pair of hands when Mrs T was in charge. Like her or loathe her, I believe that she was a true patriot (and I don't mean that in a particularly jingoistic sense, I mean she just had the UK interests at heart).
These days, the political class are only in it for the money and most of them have an eye towards a top job in Brussels/Strasbourg. Where's that social champion Kinnock now, I wonder?
Oh yes, I remember now. >:(
........one empty git if ever there was one!!
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So who have we got that can do that?????
I can see Labour getting in again, because I can't see any alternative :'(
....you may well ask M :-/ :-/
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You know, I always felt that the UK itself was in a safe pair of hands when Mrs T was in charge. Like her or loathe her, I believe that she was a true patriot (and I don't mean that in a particularly jingoistic sense, I mean she just had the UK interests at heart).
These days, the political class are only in it for the money and most of them have an eye towards a top job in Brussels/Strasbourg. Where's that social champion Kinnock now, I wonder?
Oh yes, I remember now. >:(
........one empty git if ever there was one!!
I don't know, he sounded as if he knew what to do, would have been interesting to see what he would have done.
Mind you as far as the current lot, I wouldn't trust any of them with a bag of Walkers finest.
Ken
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dear oh dear where do i start with Mrs T?
how about the wholesale breaking up and privatising of British Petroleum, British Aerospace, Britoil,British Telecom, the buses, British Gas, British Airways, British Steel, Regional Water Authorities, and the National Grid
for someone who was so fiercely patriotic she had a strange way of showing it - selling us down to river to foreign investors
how about the Falklands? an insignificant little backwater none of us had heard of until Argentina decided to reclaim it - indeed her government refused to grant full British citizenship to the islanders as late as 1981, giving Argentina a green light (an Argentina, incidentally, armed by Thatcher - she had a love of South American dictators when it suited...Pinochet, Galtieri) a war fought solely to bolster her polls and return her to power.
Did you love the 18% interest rate or the 3 million unemployed that it cost to recover?
Her support of apartheid in South Africa (Mandela was a terrorist, eh Maggie?)
Remember the Poll Tax?
The riots, the strikes?
yep - she was a great leader >:(
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I must admit to being on the fence to a certain extent on this one.Despite all the things she did I would reluctantly choose her over any of her successors,but I think BJ has made some very relevant points about her,she was not imo the national saviour that she is often painted to be by the right these days.Oh for the days when (in real terms) Gas/electricity/phone calls cost a fraction of what they do now.These institutions were largely owned by foreign investors within a short time of being de- nationalised and she knew only too well that this would happen.
One episode which I thought was particularily disgraceful was the ruination of Sir Freddie Laker and his airline in order to allow BA to realise a higher price per share when it hit the stock market.
He had been championed by her as the epitomy of everything that was great about Britain and its entrepeunarial spirit,but when he was a large thorn in the side of BA,by taking its customers by offering a much more competitive service,he was called into his Bank for what he thought was a routine meeting and had the rug pulled from under him by calling in the loans to the business with immediate effect,thus wrecking what had been a perfectly viable busines.He said later that he was given a whisper that it had been done under pressure from the very top of the government.
I will always maintain that she didnt need to set British manufacturing industry into terminal decline in order to sort out the problem with the unions,she simply didnt care.
As for the Falklands,I think there was probably much more to that than meets the eye,but when it was over she went from the most unpopular PM in living memory to having an unassailable lead in the polls and seemed to have convinced herself that she had become possessed with the spirit of Churchill.By the end of her time in office she gave the impression of being so far out of touch with reality that she needed to be confined to a home for the bewildered.
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dear oh dear where do i start with Mrs T?
how about the wholesale breaking up and privatising of British Petroleum, British Aerospace, Britoil,British Telecom, the buses, British Gas, British Airways, British Steel, Regional Water Authorities, and the National Grid
for someone who was so fiercely patriotic she had a strange way of showing it - selling us down to river to foreign investors
how about the Falklands? an insignificant little backwater none of us had heard of until Argentina decided to reclaim it - indeed her government refused to grant full British citizenship to the islanders as late as 1981, giving Argentina a green light (an Argentina, incidentally, armed by Thatcher - she had a love of South American dictators when it suited...Pinochet, Galtieri) a war fought solely to bolster her polls and return her to power.
Did you love the 18% interest rate or the 3 million unemployed that it cost to recover?
Her support of apartheid in South Africa (Mandela was a terrorist, eh Maggie?)
Remember the Poll Tax?
The riots, the strikes?
yep - she was a great leader >:(
I'm glad you recognise that fact bj 8-) saved us at the time from degenerating into a third world quasi-communist state controlled by knuckle-dragging mouth-breathers steeped in restrictive practises so incestuous that the issue from those loins still pollute industrial society to this day :y :y
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round and round and round we go. All comes back to the current situation. No good banging on about history. Having said that i am totally with BJ and his last post. And if staying on topic that sums her up for me. But i do also remember Previous Labour nightmare, black outs stick in my mind, what about the workers and all that.
Its here and now that matters. The options seem more limited to me than ever before....? Or not, you tell me? Who would you vote for now? This minute?
Oh and by the way, are we not heavily involved in a war or 2 as we speak? Well 1 now at least!
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round and round and round we go. All comes back to the current situation. No good banging on about history. Having said that i am totally with BJ and his last post. And if staying on topic that sums her up for me. But i do also remember Previous Labour nightmare, black outs stick in my mind, what about the workers and all that.
Its here and now that matters. The options seem more limited to me than ever before....? Or not, you tell me? Who would you vote for now? This minute?
Oh and by the way, are we not heavily involved in a war or 2 as we speak? Well 1 now at least!
...that fact should concern us greatly Chris :y
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While Hitchens is a bit of a renegade and no lover of the Tory party as presently constituted I always enjoy his analysis.
To confine one's opinion on M T to this issue would be to do a disservice to a Premier who stirred the stodgy pot of British politics at a time when the country was left on its arse from yet another period of Liebour misrule.
Brussels was and always will be the bane of this nation and that sinister place has gained more control than is healthy over the fortunes of this nation. The sad thing is that her government didn't poke sufficient fingers into the glaring optics of that malevolent place once and for all at the time.
I remember her with fondness and it's a pity that she was surrounded by quite a few gutless bastards who had no stomach for a fight. She did go too far toward she end and when you make that number of enemies there's only one way to go.
Hitchins has his view, I have mine and it won't by swayed by his latest piece.
Written in your usual erudite way Zulu.............but sadly...........I have to disagree.
Thatcher was a poor PM .......and not a very pleasant person..(I prefer not to use the word "woman" with this individual....
In summary.......she was ......uncaring.......charmless.....and unkind....and as Albitz mentioned ......took great pleasure in destroying the trade unions.
We should not forget ..............that she was booted out by her own party in 1990...........as .......by then..... she had become completely detached from reality. :)
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While Hitchens is a bit of a renegade and no lover of the Tory party as presently constituted I always enjoy his analysis.
To confine one's opinion on M T to this issue would be to do a disservice to a Premier who stirred the stodgy pot of British politics at a time when the country was left on its arse from yet another period of Liebour misrule.
Brussels was and always will be the bane of this nation and that sinister place has gained more control than is healthy over the fortunes of this nation. The sad thing is that her government didn't poke sufficient fingers into the glaring optics of that malevolent place once and for all at the time.
I remember her with fondness and it's a pity that she was surrounded by quite a few gutless bastards who had no stomach for a fight. She did go too far toward she end and when you make that number of enemies there's only one way to go.
Hitchins has his view, I have mine and it won't by swayed by his latest piece.
Written in your usual erudite way Zulu.............but sadly...........I have to disagree.
Thatcher was a poor PM .......and not a very pleasant person..(I prefer not to use the word "woman" with this individual....
In summary.......she was ......uncaring.......charmless.....and unkind....and as Albitz mentioned ......took great pleasure in destroying the trade unions.
We should not forget ..............that she was booted out by her own party in 1990...........as .......by then..... she had become completely detached from reality. :)
...thank you for that cogent well reasoned piece O, some of the points are well made and I don't disagree but going back to my comment on Peter Hitchins' view of M T, I won't be swayed - for reasons I can't go into on this open Forum, sadly so I might well add :( :y
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While Hitchens is a bit of a renegade and no lover of the Tory party as presently constituted I always enjoy his analysis.
To confine one's opinion on M T to this issue would be to do a disservice to a Premier who stirred the stodgy pot of British politics at a time when the country was left on its arse from yet another period of Liebour misrule.
Brussels was and always will be the bane of this nation and that sinister place has gained more control than is healthy over the fortunes of this nation. The sad thing is that her government didn't poke sufficient fingers into the glaring optics of that malevolent place once and for all at the time.
I remember her with fondness and it's a pity that she was surrounded by quite a few gutless bastards who had no stomach for a fight. She did go too far toward she end and when you make that number of enemies there's only one way to go.
Hitchins has his view, I have mine and it won't by swayed by his latest piece.
Written in your usual erudite way Zulu.............but sadly...........I have to disagree.
Thatcher was a poor PM .......and not a very pleasant person..(I prefer not to use the word "woman" with this individual....
In summary.......she was ......uncaring.......charmless.....and unkind....and as Albitz mentioned ......took great pleasure in destroying the trade unions.
We should not forget ..............that she was booted out by her own party in 1990...........as .......by then..... she had become completely detached from reality. :)
That, in itself, was great achievement in my book. By the 1970s, the trade union movement had outlived its initial purpose and was basically trying to muscle to make government policy with block voting. The fact that Mick McGahey, Arthur Scargill and Red Robbo were consigned to history's bin was a job well done. :y
Shame Bob Crow's still bleating on, though. ::) ::)
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dear oh dear where do i start with Mrs T?
how about the wholesale breaking up and privatising of British Petroleum, British Aerospace, Britoil,British Telecom, the buses, British Gas, British Airways, British Steel, Regional Water Authorities, and the National Grid
for someone who was so fiercely patriotic she had a strange way of showing it - selling us down to river to foreign investors
how about the Falklands? an insignificant little backwater none of us had heard of until Argentina decided to reclaim it - indeed her government refused to grant full British citizenship to the islanders as late as 1981, giving Argentina a green light (an Argentina, incidentally, armed by Thatcher - she had a love of South American dictators when it suited...Pinochet, Galtieri) a war fought solely to bolster her polls and return her to power.
Did you love the 18% interest rate or the 3 million unemployed that it cost to recover?
Her support of apartheid in South Africa (Mandela was a terrorist, eh Maggie?)
Remember the Poll Tax?
The riots, the strikes?
yep - she was a great leader >:(
As for the breaking up of the utility companies, do you remember the time when it took 3 months + to get a phone installed ?
Falkland Islands- there are many places like this which we the general public don't think or no about until a problem occurs.
Interest rates- yes they where high at times.
Unemployment 3 million eh, well just think what it really is today 2+ million officily today with numerous ones moved over to disabilty benefit to hide the figures, then don't include under 18s etc. I would estimate the real level to be about 4 to 4.5 million today.
Mandela a terrorist- well look at the facts, both he and his wife where suspected off being involved in a murder. And rightly or wrongly the law at the time found him guilty. wether that law was wrong is for better people than me to decide.
The poll tax, my favourite. This was fantastic, my aging last grandparent paid about 10% of the poll tax because it involved the ability to pay and how likely you where to use the services. All the poll tax did was make those pay who should be paying, and saved our pensioners and vulnerable people a bit of money.
The riots and srikes, riots can't really comment as they did not happen where I was living. The miners strikes, depends on what side of the fence you sat. But the arthur scargill should take 99% of the blame for the miners strike. He was demanding that the pits stay open regardless of cost. Is that feasible ?
She was needed a time when the country was in desperate trouble. under the previous labour government, the unions arrived at 10 Downing Street and told the prime minister what they wanted, and if he did not agree, half the unions came out on strike.
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While Hitchens is a bit of a renegade and no lover of the Tory party as presently constituted I always enjoy his analysis.
To confine one's opinion on M T to this issue would be to do a disservice to a Premier who stirred the stodgy pot of British politics at a time when the country was left on its arse from yet another period of Liebour misrule.
Brussels was and always will be the bane of this nation and that sinister place has gained more control than is healthy over the fortunes of this nation. The sad thing is that her government didn't poke sufficient fingers into the glaring optics of that malevolent place once and for all at the time.
I remember her with fondness and it's a pity that she was surrounded by quite a few gutless bastards who had no stomach for a fight. She did go too far toward she end and when you make that number of enemies there's only one way to go.
Hitchins has his view, I have mine and it won't by swayed by his latest piece.
Written in your usual erudite way Zulu.............but sadly...........I have to disagree.
Thatcher was a poor PM .......and not a very pleasant person..(I prefer not to use the word "woman" with this individual....
In summary.......she was ......uncaring.......charmless.....and unkind....and as Albitz mentioned ......took great pleasure in destroying the trade unions.
We should not forget ..............that she was booted out by her own party in 1990...........as .......by then..... she had become completely detached from reality. :)
That, in itself, was great achievement in my book. By the 1970s, the trade union movement had outlived its initial purpose and was basically trying to muscle to make government policy with block voting. The fact that Mick McGahey, Arthur Scargill and Red Robbo were consigned to history's bin was a job well done. :y
Shame Bob Crow's still bleating on, though. ::) ::)
I can see that you are not a big fan of the trade unions Nickbat..........and I agree that certain union leaders can become more important than the members they serve..........................but it is worth remembering........... that if the trade union movement had never existed..............then the average worker would have to toil for 18 hours a day...seven days a week............365 days a year............in order to earn enough money for a stale loaf of bread and a cup of manky water. ;) ;)
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While Hitchens is a bit of a renegade and no lover of the Tory party as presently constituted I always enjoy his analysis.
To confine one's opinion on M T to this issue would be to do a disservice to a Premier who stirred the stodgy pot of British politics at a time when the country was left on its arse from yet another period of Liebour misrule.
Brussels was and always will be the bane of this nation and that sinister place has gained more control than is healthy over the fortunes of this nation. The sad thing is that her government didn't poke sufficient fingers into the glaring optics of that malevolent place once and for all at the time.
I remember her with fondness and it's a pity that she was surrounded by quite a few gutless bastards who had no stomach for a fight. She did go too far toward she end and when you make that number of enemies there's only one way to go.
Hitchins has his view, I have mine and it won't by swayed by his latest piece.
Written in your usual erudite way Zulu.............but sadly...........I have to disagree.
Thatcher was a poor PM .......and not a very pleasant person..(I prefer not to use the word "woman" with this individual....
In summary.......she was ......uncaring.......charmless.....and unkind....and as Albitz mentioned ......took great pleasure in destroying the trade unions.
We should not forget ..............that she was booted out by her own party in 1990...........as .......by then..... she had become completely detached from reality. :)
That, in itself, was great achievement in my book. By the 1970s, the trade union movement had outlived its initial purpose and was basically trying to muscle to make government policy with block voting. The fact that Mick McGahey, Arthur Scargill and Red Robbo were consigned to history's bin was a job well done. :y
Shame Bob Crow's still bleating on, though. ::) ::)
I can see that you are not a big fan of the trade unions Nickbat..........and I agree that certain union leaders can become more important than the members they serve..........................but it is worth remembering........... that if the trade union movement had never existed..............then the average worker would have to toil for 18 hours a day...seven days a week............365 days a year............in order to earn enough money for a stale loaf of bread and a cup of manky water. ;) ;)
Yes, but you see that I wrote that they outlived their initial purpose. Of course they helped shaped the way that workers were treated (and helped them individually in times of need) and that is to be roundly applauded. :y :y
The problem is that they latterly became political and the miners' strike was not really about the miners at all, it was about power. The NUM had shown that they could, by halting coal production, effectively hold a government to ransom - or at least that's what they hoped. Turned out differently, I'm glad to say. ;)
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dear oh dear where do i start with Mrs T?
how about the wholesale breaking up and privatising of British Petroleum, British Aerospace, Britoil,British Telecom, the buses, British Gas, British Airways, British Steel, Regional Water Authorities, and the National Grid
for someone who was so fiercely patriotic she had a strange way of showing it - selling us down to river to foreign investors
how about the Falklands? an insignificant little backwater none of us had heard of until Argentina decided to reclaim it - indeed her government refused to grant full British citizenship to the islanders as late as 1981, giving Argentina a green light (an Argentina, incidentally, armed by Thatcher - she had a love of South American dictators when it suited...Pinochet, Galtieri) a war fought solely to bolster her polls and return her to power.
Did you love the 18% interest rate or the 3 million unemployed that it cost to recover?
Her support of apartheid in South Africa (Mandela was a terrorist, eh Maggie?)
Remember the Poll Tax?
The riots, the strikes?
yep - she was a great leader >:(
As for the breaking up of the utility companies, do you remember the time when it took 3 months + to get a phone installed ?
Falkland Islands- there are many places like this which we the general public don't think or no about until a problem occurs.
Interest rates- yes they where high at times.
Unemployment 3 million eh, well just think what it really is today 2+ million officily today with numerous ones moved over to disabilty benefit to hide the figures, then don't include under 18s etc. I would estimate the real level to be about 4 to 4.5 million today.
Mandela a terrorist- well look at the facts, both he and his wife where suspected off being involved in a murder. And rightly or wrongly the law at the time found him guilty. wether that law was wrong is for better people than me to decide.
The poll tax, my favourite. This was fantastic, my aging last grandparent paid about 10% of the poll tax because it involved the ability to pay and how likely you where to use the services. All the poll tax did was make those pay who should be paying, and saved our pensioners and vulnerable people a bit of money.
The riots and srikes, riots can't really comment as they did not happen where I was living. The miners strikes, depends on what side of the fence you sat. But the arthur scargill should take 99% of the blame for the miners strike. He was demanding that the pits stay open regardless of cost. Is that feasible ?
She was needed a time when the country was in desperate trouble. under the previous labour government, the unions arrived at 10 Downing Street and told the prime minister what they wanted, and if he did not agree, half the unions came out on strike.
:o :o where do i start? :o :o
i'm rarely rendered speechless by a post on OOF ;D
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That, in itself, was great achievement in my book. By the 1970s, the trade union movement had outlived its initial purpose and was basically trying to muscle to make government policy with block voting. The fact that Mick McGahey, Arthur Scargill and Red Robbo were consigned to history's bin was a job well done. :y
Shame Bob Crow's still bleating on, though. ::) ::)
....and if many forget how mis-directed union power can be, look at the practices still being employed by CWU and RMT and how those have placed their respective disciplines at risk. :(
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dear oh dear where do i start with Mrs T?
how about the wholesale breaking up and privatising of British Petroleum, British Aerospace, Britoil,British Telecom, the buses, British Gas, British Airways, British Steel, Regional Water Authorities, and the National Grid
for someone who was so fiercely patriotic she had a strange way of showing it - selling us down to river to foreign investors
how about the Falklands? an insignificant little backwater none of us had heard of until Argentina decided to reclaim it - indeed her government refused to grant full British citizenship to the islanders as late as 1981, giving Argentina a green light (an Argentina, incidentally, armed by Thatcher - she had a love of South American dictators when it suited...Pinochet, Galtieri) a war fought solely to bolster her polls and return her to power.
Did you love the 18% interest rate or the 3 million unemployed that it cost to recover?
Her support of apartheid in South Africa (Mandela was a terrorist, eh Maggie?)
Remember the Poll Tax?
The riots, the strikes?
yep - she was a great leader >:(
As for the breaking up of the utility companies, do you remember the time when it took 3 months + to get a phone installed ?
Falkland Islands- there are many places like this which we the general public don't think or no about until a problem occurs.
Interest rates- yes they where high at times.
Unemployment 3 million eh, well just think what it really is today 2+ million officily today with numerous ones moved over to disabilty benefit to hide the figures, then don't include under 18s etc. I would estimate the real level to be about 4 to 4.5 million today.
Mandela a terrorist- well look at the facts, both he and his wife where suspected off being involved in a murder. And rightly or wrongly the law at the time found him guilty. wether that law was wrong is for better people than me to decide.
The poll tax, my favourite. This was fantastic, my aging last grandparent paid about 10% of the poll tax because it involved the ability to pay and how likely you where to use the services. All the poll tax did was make those pay who should be paying, and saved our pensioners and vulnerable people a bit of money.
The riots and srikes, riots can't really comment as they did not happen where I was living. The miners strikes, depends on what side of the fence you sat. But the arthur scargill should take 99% of the blame for the miners strike. He was demanding that the pits stay open regardless of cost. Is that feasible ?
She was needed a time when the country was in desperate trouble. under the previous labour government, the unions arrived at 10 Downing Street and told the prime minister what they wanted, and if he did not agree, half the unions came out on strike.
:o :o where do i start? :o :o
i'm rarely rendered speechless by a post on OOF ;D
Ok let's start with one thing at a time, the utilities they where are law unto themselves, the GPO at the time had to be the biggest joke of all, if you wanted a phone and line, they put you into a que. and told you when it was going to be installed, no discussion, it was at there bidding. Also try getting a job in the utility companies in the 70s, no chance, just like the docks you had to be a union member and no someone who works there, this practice continues to some degree to this day in southampton docks.
The only utility I disagreed with privatising was the water authority, as beleive that should be in public control.
I would also add I do not own and never have owned shares in any of the utility companies, so I never made any money out of it.
Now why is that so shocking to you. ? If I am not telling it how it was, perhaps you could inform where I have got it wrong. :)
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dear oh dear where do i start with Mrs T?
how about the wholesale breaking up and privatising of British Petroleum, British Aerospace, Britoil,British Telecom, the buses, British Gas, British Airways, British Steel, Regional Water Authorities, and the National Grid
for someone who was so fiercely patriotic she had a strange way of showing it - selling us down to river to foreign investors
how about the Falklands? an insignificant little backwater none of us had heard of until Argentina decided to reclaim it - indeed her government refused to grant full British citizenship to the islanders as late as 1981, giving Argentina a green light (an Argentina, incidentally, armed by Thatcher - she had a love of South American dictators when it suited...Pinochet, Galtieri) a war fought solely to bolster her polls and return her to power.
Did you love the 18% interest rate or the 3 million unemployed that it cost to recover?
Her support of apartheid in South Africa (Mandela was a terrorist, eh Maggie?)
Remember the Poll Tax?
The riots, the strikes?
yep - she was a great leader >:(
As for the breaking up of the utility companies, do you remember the time when it took 3 months + to get a phone installed ?
Falkland Islands- there are many places like this which we the general public don't think or no about until a problem occurs.
Interest rates- yes they where high at times.
Unemployment 3 million eh, well just think what it really is today 2+ million officily today with numerous ones moved over to disabilty benefit to hide the figures, then don't include under 18s etc. I would estimate the real level to be about 4 to 4.5 million today.
Mandela a terrorist- well look at the facts, both he and his wife where suspected off being involved in a murder. And rightly or wrongly the law at the time found him guilty. wether that law was wrong is for better people than me to decide.
The poll tax, my favourite. This was fantastic, my aging last grandparent paid about 10% of the poll tax because it involved the ability to pay and how likely you where to use the services. All the poll tax did was make those pay who should be paying, and saved our pensioners and vulnerable people a bit of money.
The riots and srikes, riots can't really comment as they did not happen where I was living. The miners strikes, depends on what side of the fence you sat. But the arthur scargill should take 99% of the blame for the miners strike. He was demanding that the pits stay open regardless of cost. Is that feasible ?
She was needed a time when the country was in desperate trouble. under the previous labour government, the unions arrived at 10 Downing Street and told the prime minister what they wanted, and if he did not agree, half the unions came out on strike.
:o :o where do i start? :o :o
i'm rarely rendered speechless by a post on OOF ;D
The falkland Islands, are you really saying that a war was started to win her the general election ?
The UK has many different places around the world, more common one's being Gibraltar and Bermuda. and there less well known ones.
Now if any of these places where attacked I am sure the UK government would help to defend them. And not all of them have the right to a UK passport, or are ruled directly by the UK.
Also I think you will find That France and the USA supplied Argentina with many weapons aswell. In fact I believe one story goes that the great US was hoping Argentina would win.
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dear oh dear where do i start with Mrs T?
how about the wholesale breaking up and privatising of British Petroleum, British Aerospace, Britoil,British Telecom, the buses, British Gas, British Airways, British Steel, Regional Water Authorities, and the National Grid
for someone who was so fiercely patriotic she had a strange way of showing it - selling us down to river to foreign investors
how about the Falklands? an insignificant little backwater none of us had heard of until Argentina decided to reclaim it - indeed her government refused to grant full British citizenship to the islanders as late as 1981, giving Argentina a green light (an Argentina, incidentally, armed by Thatcher - she had a love of South American dictators when it suited...Pinochet, Galtieri) a war fought solely to bolster her polls and return her to power.
Did you love the 18% interest rate or the 3 million unemployed that it cost to recover?
Her support of apartheid in South Africa (Mandela was a terrorist, eh Maggie?)
Remember the Poll Tax?
The riots, the strikes?
yep - she was a great leader >:(
As for the breaking up of the utility companies, do you remember the time when it took 3 months + to get a phone installed ?
Falkland Islands- there are many places like this which we the general public don't think or no about until a problem occurs.
Interest rates- yes they where high at times.
Unemployment 3 million eh, well just think what it really is today 2+ million officily today with numerous ones moved over to disabilty benefit to hide the figures, then don't include under 18s etc. I would estimate the real level to be about 4 to 4.5 million today.
Mandela a terrorist- well look at the facts, both he and his wife where suspected off being involved in a murder. And rightly or wrongly the law at the time found him guilty. wether that law was wrong is for better people than me to decide.
The poll tax, my favourite. This was fantastic, my aging last grandparent paid about 10% of the poll tax because it involved the ability to pay and how likely you where to use the services. All the poll tax did was make those pay who should be paying, and saved our pensioners and vulnerable people a bit of money.
The riots and srikes, riots can't really comment as they did not happen where I was living. The miners strikes, depends on what side of the fence you sat. But the arthur scargill should take 99% of the blame for the miners strike. He was demanding that the pits stay open regardless of cost. Is that feasible ?
She was needed a time when the country was in desperate trouble. under the previous labour government, the unions arrived at 10 Downing Street and told the prime minister what they wanted, and if he did not agree, half the unions came out on strike.
:o :o where do i start? :o :o
i'm rarely rendered speechless by a post on OOF ;D
Agreed, the tory govt of the time tried to control to much with interest rates, and this was a failing.
As for unemployment, well the old saying has to go. There are lies. lies and damned statistics. But I firmly believe there are more today than when she was in power.
For my reasoning behind this, in the last recession of 91/92 it did not really effect this area at all. In this lovely recession it has, many jobs lost. not least my own job was under threat a few months back :(
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I agree with some of what you say (as always Z) but I will always maintain that her sledgehammer which cracked the union nut so to speak,destroyed British Industry and left us a nation of waiters and chambermaids.If the whole coal industry hadnt been sacrificed on her altar in order to beat the lunatic Scargill,we wouldnt be paying ludicrous prices for imported coal for the new generation of coal powered power stations and held to ransome by all and sundry for our future energy needs.
Its a global market place, and we couldn;t compete.....it would have gone anyway and costed us as a nation a fortune on the way.
That and a small minority of minors sealed thier own fate by buggering productivity!
As for being held to ransom.....the coal is all still there but, its not cheaper to get out the ground than it is to import or it would be happening. we may in the future be glad its still there of course!
-
dear oh dear where do i start with Mrs T?
how about the wholesale breaking up and privatising of British Petroleum, British Aerospace, Britoil,British Telecom, the buses, British Gas, British Airways, British Steel, Regional Water Authorities, and the National Grid
for someone who was so fiercely patriotic she had a strange way of showing it - selling us down to river to foreign investors
how about the Falklands? an insignificant little backwater none of us had heard of until Argentina decided to reclaim it - indeed her government refused to grant full British citizenship to the islanders as late as 1981, giving Argentina a green light (an Argentina, incidentally, armed by Thatcher - she had a love of South American dictators when it suited...Pinochet, Galtieri) a war fought solely to bolster her polls and return her to power.
Did you love the 18% interest rate or the 3 million unemployed that it cost to recover?
Her support of apartheid in South Africa (Mandela was a terrorist, eh Maggie?)
Remember the Poll Tax?
The riots, the strikes?
yep - she was a great leader >:(
As for the breaking up of the utility companies, do you remember the time when it took 3 months + to get a phone installed ?
Falkland Islands- there are many places like this which we the general public don't think or no about until a problem occurs.
Interest rates- yes they where high at times.
Unemployment 3 million eh, well just think what it really is today 2+ million officily today with numerous ones moved over to disabilty benefit to hide the figures, then don't include under 18s etc. I would estimate the real level to be about 4 to 4.5 million today.
Mandela a terrorist- well look at the facts, both he and his wife where suspected off being involved in a murder. And rightly or wrongly the law at the time found him guilty. wether that law was wrong is for better people than me to decide.
The poll tax, my favourite. This was fantastic, my aging last grandparent paid about 10% of the poll tax because it involved the ability to pay and how likely you where to use the services. All the poll tax did was make those pay who should be paying, and saved our pensioners and vulnerable people a bit of money.
The riots and srikes, riots can't really comment as they did not happen where I was living. The miners strikes, depends on what side of the fence you sat. But the arthur scargill should take 99% of the blame for the miners strike. He was demanding that the pits stay open regardless of cost. Is that feasible ?
She was needed a time when the country was in desperate trouble. under the previous labour government, the unions arrived at 10 Downing Street and told the prime minister what they wanted, and if he did not agree, half the unions came out on strike.
:o :o where do i start? :o :o
i'm rarely rendered speechless by a post on OOF ;D
Mandela
I will mot comment any further on ex terrorists now finding themselves in high paid jobs jobs living very comfortably.
Yes apartheid was wrong, but seeking justice through violence is equally wrong.
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I agree with some of what you say (as always Z) but I will always maintain that her sledgehammer which cracked the union nut so to speak,destroyed British Industry and left us a nation of waiters and chambermaids.If the whole coal industry hadnt been sacrificed on her altar in order to beat the lunatic Scargill,we wouldnt be paying ludicrous prices for imported coal for the new generation of coal powered power stations and held to ransome by all and sundry for our future energy needs.
Its a global market place, and we couldn;t compete.....it would have gone anyway and costed us as a nation a fortune on the way.
That and a small minority of minors sealed thier own fate by buggering productivity!
As for being held to ransom.....the coal is all still there but, its not cheaper to get out the ground than it is to import or it would be happening. we may in the future be glad its still there of course!
Entering this debate late, but you are absolutely correct Mark. :y :y
In the 1970s we had to endue stupid strikes, poor industrial productivity, awful industrail relations, crap British cars with diobolical realiabilty, products that no one wanted, non-competative market practices, rubbish not being collected, the dead not being buried, weak political leadership, very high national debt, and worse of all the whole British nation being described by foreigners as "the sick man of Europe" that was "going down the toilet"!!! >:( >:( >:(
Post 1979, and the great couragous performance by Thatcher all that changed and we could at last hold our heads up as British citizens in a world that again was treating us with respect :y :y :y :y :y
Thatcher is what this country required at that time, as Churchill was in 1940, and now what we need is a leader of the same strong character for these times to right the mess we are witnessing currently 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
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dear oh dear where do i start with Mrs T?
how about the wholesale breaking up and privatising of British Petroleum, British Aerospace, Britoil,British Telecom, the buses, British Gas, British Airways, British Steel, Regional Water Authorities, and the National Grid
for someone who was so fiercely patriotic she had a strange way of showing it - selling us down to river to foreign investors
how about the Falklands? an insignificant little backwater none of us had heard of until Argentina decided to reclaim it - indeed her government refused to grant full British citizenship to the islanders as late as 1981, giving Argentina a green light (an Argentina, incidentally, armed by Thatcher - she had a love of South American dictators when it suited...Pinochet, Galtieri) a war fought solely to bolster her polls and return her to power.
Did you love the 18% interest rate or the 3 million unemployed that it cost to recover?
Her support of apartheid in South Africa (Mandela was a terrorist, eh Maggie?)
Remember the Poll Tax?
The riots, the strikes?
yep - she was a great leader >:(
As for the breaking up of the utility companies, do you remember the time when it took 3 months + to get a phone installed ?
Falkland Islands- there are many places like this which we the general public don't think or no about until a problem occurs.
Interest rates- yes they where high at times.
Unemployment 3 million eh, well just think what it really is today 2+ million officily today with numerous ones moved over to disabilty benefit to hide the figures, then don't include under 18s etc. I would estimate the real level to be about 4 to 4.5 million today.
Mandela a terrorist- well look at the facts, both he and his wife where suspected off being involved in a murder. And rightly or wrongly the law at the time found him guilty. wether that law was wrong is for better people than me to decide.
The poll tax, my favourite. This was fantastic, my aging last grandparent paid about 10% of the poll tax because it involved the ability to pay and how likely you where to use the services. All the poll tax did was make those pay who should be paying, and saved our pensioners and vulnerable people a bit of money.
The riots and srikes, riots can't really comment as they did not happen where I was living. The miners strikes, depends on what side of the fence you sat. But the arthur scargill should take 99% of the blame for the miners strike. He was demanding that the pits stay open regardless of cost. Is that feasible ?
She was needed a time when the country was in desperate trouble. under the previous labour government, the unions arrived at 10 Downing Street and told the prime minister what they wanted, and if he did not agree, half the unions came out on strike.
:o :o where do i start? :o :o
i'm rarely rendered speechless by a post on OOF ;D
The poll tax
The poll tax expected people who could afford to pay, to pay.
The less well off (the elderly) had a substantial reduction. Those protested about it only took money off old people.
Speaking to a local councillor at the time, he informed me it was the way the borough councils brought in the poll tax that was wrong, they each hired a load of new staff to work on the poll tax, on top of the rates staff which meant the poll tax nearly doubled because of that. (liberal councillor by the way)
And in the end no rates staff or poll tax staff lost there jobs.
My granmother lived in 3 bed semi council house and was paying 10% of the poll tax, the 5 working adults next to her had to pay more. now which is fair ?
Perhaps you prefer the council tax of today where are elderly have to pay it in full.
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dear oh dear where do i start with Mrs T?
how about the wholesale breaking up and privatising of British Petroleum, British Aerospace, Britoil,British Telecom, the buses, British Gas, British Airways, British Steel, Regional Water Authorities, and the National Grid
for someone who was so fiercely patriotic she had a strange way of showing it - selling us down to river to foreign investors
how about the Falklands? an insignificant little backwater none of us had heard of until Argentina decided to reclaim it - indeed her government refused to grant full British citizenship to the islanders as late as 1981, giving Argentina a green light (an Argentina, incidentally, armed by Thatcher - she had a love of South American dictators when it suited...Pinochet, Galtieri) a war fought solely to bolster her polls and return her to power.
Did you love the 18% interest rate or the 3 million unemployed that it cost to recover?
Her support of apartheid in South Africa (Mandela was a terrorist, eh Maggie?)
Remember the Poll Tax?
The riots, the strikes?
yep - she was a great leader >:(
As for the breaking up of the utility companies, do you remember the time when it took 3 months + to get a phone installed ?
Falkland Islands- there are many places like this which we the general public don't think or no about until a problem occurs.
Interest rates- yes they where high at times.
Unemployment 3 million eh, well just think what it really is today 2+ million officily today with numerous ones moved over to disabilty benefit to hide the figures, then don't include under 18s etc. I would estimate the real level to be about 4 to 4.5 million today.
Mandela a terrorist- well look at the facts, both he and his wife where suspected off being involved in a murder. And rightly or wrongly the law at the time found him guilty. wether that law was wrong is for better people than me to decide.
The poll tax, my favourite. This was fantastic, my aging last grandparent paid about 10% of the poll tax because it involved the ability to pay and how likely you where to use the services. All the poll tax did was make those pay who should be paying, and saved our pensioners and vulnerable people a bit of money.
The riots and srikes, riots can't really comment as they did not happen where I was living. The miners strikes, depends on what side of the fence you sat. But the arthur scargill should take 99% of the blame for the miners strike. He was demanding that the pits stay open regardless of cost. Is that feasible ?
She was needed a time when the country was in desperate trouble. under the previous labour government, the unions arrived at 10 Downing Street and told the prime minister what they wanted, and if he did not agree, half the unions came out on strike.
:o :o where do i start? :o :o
i'm rarely rendered speechless by a post on OOF ;D
As I said I cannot comment on the riots, as they did not happen where I was living.
Again the strikes, perhaps I could suggest you googling for the demands that arthur scargill was asking for. No country in the world could afford what he was expecting.
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The first post on this thread had a link to Peter Hitchens article which explains that she didnt actually destroy the unions at all,the clever career unionists moved off in a different direction and have taken over almost every institution in this country and turned them into loony left madhouses and that is probably doing more damage to the country now than the old knuckle draggers like Scargill etc, did in the 70,s.So in my book she didnt really win the war, she just won some very bloody battles that left a huge amount of collateral damage,much of which could have been avoided if she was remotely interested in avoiding it.But I have no doubt that she thought that anywhere outside the home counties was pretty much a hive of communism and she didnt give a toss what happened to it.
I think that any sane person would agree that the unions were a big problem and needed to be sorted,thats stating the obvious really. I would argue that an intelligent rather than a beligerent leader could have solved the problem properly (which she didnt) and not caused the amount of damage she did to so many innocent people.
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I agree with some of what you say (as always Z) but I will always maintain that her sledgehammer which cracked the union nut so to speak,destroyed British Industry and left us a nation of waiters and chambermaids.If the whole coal industry hadnt been sacrificed on her altar in order to beat the lunatic Scargill,we wouldnt be paying ludicrous prices for imported coal for the new generation of coal powered power stations and held to ransome by all and sundry for our future energy needs.
Its a global market place, and we couldn;t compete.....it would have gone anyway and costed us as a nation a fortune on the way.
That and a small minority of minors sealed thier own fate by buggering productivity!
As for being held to ransom.....the coal is all still there but, its not cheaper to get out the ground than it is to import or it would be happening. we may in the future be glad its still there of course!
Entering this debate late, but you are absolutely correct Mark. :y :y
In the 1970s we had to endue stupid strikes, poor industrial productivity, awful industrail relations, crap British cars with diobolical realiabilty, products that no one wanted, non-competative market practices, rubbish not being collected, the dead not being buried, weak political leadership, very high national debt, and worse of all the whole British nation being described by foreigners as "the sick man of Europe" that was "going down the toilet"!!! >:( >:( >:(
Post 1979, and the great couragous performance by Thatcher all that changed and we could at last hold our heads up as British citizens in a world that again was treating us with respect :y :y :y :y :y
Thatcher is what this country required at that time, as Churchill was in 1940, and now what we need is a leader of the same strong character for these times to right the mess we are witnessing currently 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
Except that if we vote Tory this time Lizzie.............we get David Cameron as Batman.......and the hopeless George Osborne as The Boy Wonder..............What a great choice the British people have come the general election. :'( :'( :y