Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: tunnie on 15 July 2010, 14:49:29
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Well i've just ticked over on 147k, so i've done 10k since it was converted back in late March, early April. In that time its never missed a beat, ran perfectly no EML errors, no poor running. :)
For those that think you need cryptonite tipped spark plugs at £60 a set, you don't! Standard GM twins had already done a considerable mileage before LPG, and i've not touched them. Think i changed them at about 110k ::)
At this point i'd like to say another big thanks to Kevin Wood for drilling and tapping the manifold, LazyDocker for excellent front end work and spending 2 and a half days helping me convert. :y
Of course i think its all down to the superb way the tank was mounted ::)
Cost wise, if get LPG at Asda which is currently 57p, its costing around 10p mile, with 90L tank (filling to 74L) i get about 370-400 mile range. Which is about the same as petrol, but this was costing me around 16-17p a mile. So in just a few months the conversion has paid for itself! :D
Would i go LPG again? Sadly i think i would have to say no :( - Sourcing LPG at good price is hard, Asda which is 11p per litre cheaper than BP is the ideal source, but their filling stations are very un-reliable often out for weeks at a time >:(
Filling up at BP, the savings are minimal, i find i am always looking for fuel too :-/
With modern diesels being quick and economical, that will be the way to go i feel.
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This question has been asked before......but sadly I'm too thick to understand the answer fully.
Question.....Why does a car do less MPG on LPG?
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i have no idea why it actually burns more :-/ - On a good day i get 25mpg on gas
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Is it not do do with the Gas / Air mixture is higher (more Gas) than Petrol / Air in order to achieve similar running characteristics?
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This question has been asked before......but sadly I'm too thick to understand the answer fully.
Question.....Why does a car do less MPG on LPG?
The volumetric calorific value of LPG is less than for petrol. In other words, a litre of LPG has less energy in it than a litre of petrol so you have to burn more litres to go the same distance. :y
It's a fundamental property of the fuel. No getting around it.
An engine designed to burn petrol will also be slightly less efficient at burning LPG because ignition timing and compression ratio won't be ideal for LPG.
Because of the huge price difference, it's still cheaper to run LPG.
Kevin
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This question has been asked before......but sadly I'm too thick to understand the answer fully.
Question.....Why does a car do less MPG on LPG?
The volumetric calorific value of LPG is less than for petrol. In other words, a litre of LPG has less energy in it than a litre of petrol so you have to burn more litres to go the same distance. :y
It's a fundamental property of the fuel. No getting around it.
An engine designed to burn petrol will also be slightly less efficient at burning LPG because ignition timing and compression ratio won't be ideal for LPG.
Because of the huge price difference, it's still cheaper to run LPG.
Kevin
Unless your filling up at BP, i calculated it was just 2.5p a mile cheaper :(
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This question has been asked before......but sadly I'm too thick to understand the answer fully.
Question.....Why does a car do less MPG on LPG?
The volumetric calorific value of LPG is less than for petrol. In other words, a litre of LPG has less energy in it than a litre of petrol so you have to burn more litres to go the same distance. :y
It's a fundamental property of the fuel. No getting around it.
An engine designed to burn petrol will also be slightly less efficient at burning LPG because ignition timing and compression ratio won't be ideal for LPG.
Because of the huge price difference, it's still cheaper to run LPG.
Kevin
That's very interesting K. 8-)
Would there be much involved in developing an engine to primarily burn LPG in saloon cars and if could be done, would it differ much in design from a petrol fuelled engine?
Idle curiosity only.
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That's very interesting K. 8-)
Would there be much involved in developing an engine to primarily burn LPG in saloon cars and if could be done, would it differ much in design from a petrol fuelled engine?
Idle curiosity only.
Not a great deal. You'd map the ignition differently, run much increased compression ratio. Forced induction would look a little more appealing. You'd probably map the engine ECU to run LPG directly.
The problem is the compression ratio would then preclude running on petrol, and with LPG stations prone to running out and slow to fix their pumps (I guess an LPG pump out costs them much less in reduced sales than a petrol pump out) life would be a constant struggle from one fillup to the next.
I suppose you could always carry a Camping Gaz cylinder for emergencies. ;D
Kevin
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That's very interesting K. 8-)
Would there be much involved in developing an engine to primarily burn LPG in saloon cars and if could be done, would it differ much in design from a petrol fuelled engine?
Idle curiosity only.
Not a great deal. You'd map the ignition differently, run much increased compression ratio. Forced induction would look a little more appealing. You'd probably map the engine ECU to run LPG directly.
The problem is the compression ratio would then preclude running on petrol, and with LPG stations prone to running out and slow to fix their pumps (I guess an LPG pump out costs them much less in reduced sales than a petrol pump out) life would be a constant struggle from one fillup to the next.
I suppose you could always carry a Camping Gaz cylinder for emergencies. ;D
Kevin
Thanks K - I suppose, like most things, it's a trade off between desire and practical application.
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I thought you needed the petrol bit to heat the water temperature before the vaporizers could work properly?
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I thought you needed the petrol bit to heat the water temperature before the vaporizers could work properly?
Yes and no. The vapouriser needs heat input to prevent it icing up but the real reason most LPG systems warm up on petrol is that the engine ECU enriches the mixture so much when cold (required because the petrol is slow to vapourise and clings to the walls of the intake manifold) that it runs too rich on LPG, which is injected as a vapour so requires no enrichment.
I have my system set to switch over at 20 degrees C coolant temperature or a minimum of 30 seconds running and it's fine.
As long as you aren't going to drive it flat out from stone cold (never a great idea) I'd say the vapouriser will probably get enough heat from the coolant for moderate rates of LPG consumption regardless of temperature. LPG boils at -40 after all.
You can also get vapourisers with electric pre-heating to help with cold starting.
The winches at our gliding club are LPG-only (crude mixer systems too) and whilst they are a little reluctant to start on really cold mornings it's not really a problem. The vapourisers are only heated by coolant on those.
Kevin
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This question has been asked before......but sadly I'm too thick to understand the answer fully.
Question.....Why does a car do less MPG on LPG?
The volumetric calorific value of LPG is less than for petrol. In other words, a litre of LPG has less energy in it than a litre of petrol so you have to burn more litres to go the same distance. :y
It's a fundamental property of the fuel. No getting around it.
An engine designed to burn petrol will also be slightly less efficient at burning LPG because ignition timing and compression ratio won't be ideal for LPG.
Because of the huge price difference, it's still cheaper to run LPG.
Kevin
Unless your filling up at BP, i calculated it was just 2.5p a mile cheaper :(
OK, so even in an emergency, and you fill at BP (and queue up to pay for the retards to serve), on your 140m round trip, thats still |£3.50 saving. Thats under emergency conditions.
OK, so Asda out of gas. One your commute, there is one in Bicester (Shell, 62.9p last time I filled there), and Cherwell Services sell it (at BP prices mind). Plus the BP in Brackley. You are still saving.
Lets say Asda run out of petrol, or station closed. 112.9p for unleaded there. 122.9p for unleaded in Brackley last week. Thats that same 10p per litre you are so reluctant to spend.
I like diesels. But for the money that an Omega costs, inc converting, LPG wins for me. Yes, there are odd times you have to, shock horror, run on petrol. Even you will admit, these are few and far between. Yes, you tend to be more organised with LPG, but is that a hardship? You would still fill at Asda as its cheap, and you're tight, despite the fact their diesel is ropey...
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I thought you needed the petrol bit to heat the water temperature before the vaporizers could work properly?
Yes and no. The vapouriser needs heat input to prevent it icing up but the real reason most LPG systems warm up on petrol is that the engine ECU enriches the mixture so much when cold (required because the petrol is slow to vapourise and clings to the walls of the intake manifold) that it runs too rich on LPG, which is injected as a vapour so requires no enrichment.
I have my system set to switch over at 20 degrees C coolant temperature or a minimum of 30 seconds running and it's fine.
As long as you aren't going to drive it flat out from stone cold (never a great idea) I'd say the vapouriser will probably get enough heat from the coolant for moderate rates of LPG consumption regardless of temperature. LPG boils at -40 after all.
You can also get vapourisers with electric pre-heating to help with cold starting.
The winches at our gliding club are LPG-only (crude mixer systems too) and whilst they are a little reluctant to start on really cold mornings it's not really a problem. The vapourisers are only heated by coolant on those.
Kevin
I think my 20C/10s is a bit ambitious. On a hot day, that 10s just coincides with me turning right out of the works carpark ::)
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This question has been asked before......but sadly I'm too thick to understand the answer fully.
Question.....Why does a car do less MPG on LPG?
The volumetric calorific value of LPG is less than for petrol. In other words, a litre of LPG has less energy in it than a litre of petrol so you have to burn more litres to go the same distance. :y
It's a fundamental property of the fuel. No getting around it.
An engine designed to burn petrol will also be slightly less efficient at burning LPG because ignition timing and compression ratio won't be ideal for LPG.
Because of the huge price difference, it's still cheaper to run LPG.
Kevin
Unless your filling up at BP, i calculated it was just 2.5p a mile cheaper :(
OK, so even in an emergency, and you fill at BP (and queue up to pay for the retards to serve), on your 140m round trip, thats still |£3.50 saving. Thats under emergency conditions.
OK, so Asda out of gas. One your commute, there is one in Bicester (Shell, 62.9p last time I filled there), and Cherwell Services sell it (at BP prices mind). Plus the BP in Brackley. You are still saving.
Lets say Asda run out of petrol, or station closed. 112.9p for unleaded there. 122.9p for unleaded in Brackley last week. Thats that same 10p per litre you are so reluctant to spend.
I like diesels. But for the money that an Omega costs, inc converting, LPG wins for me. Yes, there are odd times you have to, shock horror, run on petrol. Even you will admit, these are few and far between. Yes, you tend to be more organised with LPG, but is that a hardship? You would still fill at Asda as its cheap, and you're tight, despite the fact their diesel is ropey...
Of course, i'm lazy :D
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You could always ask mummy to fill it up :P.
Actually, thats not a bad idea, as then she would:
a) pay for it
b) have to tolerate the retards serving in BP Brackley
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You could always ask mummy to fill it up :P.
Actually, thats not a bad idea, as then she would:
a) pay for it
b) have to tolerate the retards serving in BP Brackley
Why do think i will go home after i get the flat? :P
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You could always ask mummy to fill it up :P.
Actually, thats not a bad idea, as then she would:
a) pay for it
b) have to tolerate the retards serving in BP Brackley
Why do think i will go home after i get the flat? :P
Next time she goes to BP there, I left something behind if she could pick it up for me.......
.....about 10,000 miles worth of rubber.
Those retards do piss me right off....
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You could always ask mummy to fill it up :P.
Actually, thats not a bad idea, as then she would:
a) pay for it
b) have to tolerate the retards serving in BP Brackley
Why do think i will go home after i get the flat? :P
Next time she goes to BP there, I left something behind if she could pick it up for me.......
.....about 10,000 miles worth of rubber.
Those retards do piss me right off....
I'll ask her to get my dust caps too, like a t!t i left all 4 on top of the tyre pump ;D :-[ >:(
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I thought you needed the petrol bit to heat the water temperature before the vaporizers could work properly?
Yes and no. The vapouriser needs heat input to prevent it icing up but the real reason most LPG systems warm up on petrol is that the engine ECU enriches the mixture so much when cold (required because the petrol is slow to vapourise and clings to the walls of the intake manifold) that it runs too rich on LPG, which is injected as a vapour so requires no enrichment.
I have my system set to switch over at 20 degrees C coolant temperature or a minimum of 30 seconds running and it's fine.
As long as you aren't going to drive it flat out from stone cold (never a great idea) I'd say the vapouriser will probably get enough heat from the coolant for moderate rates of LPG consumption regardless of temperature. LPG boils at -40 after all.
You can also get vapourisers with electric pre-heating to help with cold starting.
The winches at our gliding club are LPG-only (crude mixer systems too) and whilst they are a little reluctant to start on really cold mornings it's not really a problem. The vapourisers are only heated by coolant on those.
Kevin
I think my 20C/10s is a bit ambitious. On a hot day, that 10s just coincides with me turning right out of the works carpark ::)
I have the same settings and find that the enrichment is still causing problems... Have meant to change it for the last 6 weeks ::) ::)
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Incidentally, TB has said exactly what I was going to. It's an unfair comparison when you compare LPG costs at BP and petrol costs at a Supermarket ;)
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So *if* I'm over there, I ought to avoid the BP then :y
This is very well, and I woundn't like to spoil the party, but surely LPG is at it's lowest cost now. It can only go up ....
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So *if* I'm over there, I ought to avoid the BP then :y
This is very well, and I woundn't like to spoil the party, but surely LPG is at it's lowest cost now. It can only go up ....
Nope... When I got my first LPG car it was around 35ppl... It's now around 65ppl :o :o :o
But equally, petrol was about 85ppl and now look at it ::)
Currently the duty difference between LPG and petrol will not decrease by more than 1p/year but don't know how long that will last :-/
Must confess, I doubt LPG will be viable for me within the next 5 years. Considering a Lexus Hybrid at the moment :-/
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So *if* I'm over there, I ought to avoid the BP then :y
This is very well, and I woundn't like to spoil the party, but surely LPG is at it's lowest cost now. It can only go up ....
Nope... When I got my first LPG car it was around 35ppl... It's now around 65ppl :o :o :o
But equally, petrol was about 85ppl and now look at it ::)
Currently the duty difference between LPG and petrol will not decrease by more than 1p/year but don't know how long that will last :-/
Must confess, I doubt LPG will be viable for me within the next 5 years. Considering a Lexus Hybrid at the moment :-/
Noooooo! :o
A8 Diesel would be more economical...
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So *if* I'm over there, I ought to avoid the BP then :y
This is very well, and I woundn't like to spoil the party, but surely LPG is at it's lowest cost now. It can only go up ....
Nope... When I got my first LPG car it was around 35ppl... It's now around 65ppl :o :o :o
But equally, petrol was about 85ppl and now look at it ::)
Currently the duty difference between LPG and petrol will not decrease by more than 1p/year but don't know how long that will last :-/
Must confess, I doubt LPG will be viable for me within the next 5 years. Considering a Lexus Hybrid at the moment :-/
Noooooo! :o
A8 Diesel would be more economical...
That may be... But, and I know it was a rarity, after the bad weather this winter I miss the ground clearance of a 4x4 and the lexus is sensible on RFL as well as fuel... 45+ MPG is easily achievable, although it's a bit of a barge. Still pretty quick up to the speed limits, just slower on the autobahns ::) ::)
Speaking of Autobahns... Any chance you could PM me the details of the European Breakdown Firm you use?
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So *if* I'm over there, I ought to avoid the BP then :y
This is very well, and I woundn't like to spoil the party, but surely LPG is at it's lowest cost now. It can only go up ....
Nope... When I got my first LPG car it was around 35ppl... It's now around 65ppl :o :o :o
But equally, petrol was about 85ppl and now look at it ::)
Currently the duty difference between LPG and petrol will not decrease by more than 1p/year but don't know how long that will last :-/
Must confess, I doubt LPG will be viable for me within the next 5 years. Considering a Lexus Hybrid at the moment :-/
Noooooo! :o
A8 Diesel would be more economical...
That may be... But, and I know it was a rarity, after the bad weather this winter I miss the ground clearance of a 4x4 and the lexus is sensible on RFL as well as fuel... 45+ MPG is easily achievable, although it's a bit of a barge. Still pretty quick up to the speed limits, just slower on the autobahns ::) ::)
Speaking of Autobahns... Any chance you could PM me the details of the European Breakdown Firm you use?
Its no secret, its the ADAC, German version of the AA. Full European cover, and AA cover in the UK. Go for the + version, its around £70 for the year, just ring the German number and ask to speak to an English Adviser :y
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So *if* I'm over there, I ought to avoid the BP then :y
This is very well, and I woundn't like to spoil the party, but surely LPG is at it's lowest cost now. It can only go up ....
Nope... When I got my first LPG car it was around 35ppl... It's now around 65ppl :o :o :o
But equally, petrol was about 85ppl and now look at it ::)
Currently the duty difference between LPG and petrol will not decrease by more than 1p/year but don't know how long that will last :-/
Must confess, I doubt LPG will be viable for me within the next 5 years. Considering a Lexus Hybrid at the moment :-/
Noooooo! :o
A8 Diesel would be more economical...
That may be... But, and I know it was a rarity, after the bad weather this winter I miss the ground clearance of a 4x4 and the lexus is sensible on RFL as well as fuel... 45+ MPG is easily achievable, although it's a bit of a barge. Still pretty quick up to the speed limits, just slower on the autobahns ::) ::)
Speaking of Autobahns... Any chance you could PM me the details of the European Breakdown Firm you use?
Its no secret, its the ADAC, German version of the AA. Full European cover, and AA cover in the UK. Go for the + version, its around £70 for the year, just ring the German number and ask to speak to an English Adviser :y
So, would that give me full UK cover? and if so what is the number?.....thanks :y
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Prices:
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.adac.de/mitgliedschaft/adac_membership/default.aspx&prev=/search%3Fq%3DADAC%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DVvs%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26prmd%3Dn&rurl=translate.google.co.uk&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhjjwUN2hBl7OeyY8ERhRsI30UIeQw
Try: +49 180510 11 12
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Gas only engines already exist. Our fork-lift trucks at work are all 100% gas. They run modified Mazda engines in the small trucks and GM 4.2 V6's in the large ones. :-? I've read somewhere also that Ford in America are developing gas pick-up trucks. :o
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Gas only engines already exist. Our fork-lift trucks at work are all 100% gas. They run modified Mazda engines in the small trucks and GM 4.2 V6's in the large ones. :-? I've read somewhere also that Ford in America are developing gas pick-up trucks. :o
They have been out for uears, We ran gas fork lifts in the early 80's, think they were TCM and powered by Nissan 2 litre engins at the time,
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Currently, in this country, we need petrol engines as a fallback to gas, as as tunnie points out, occasionally (though rarely) there is not a convenient LPG station.
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So *if* I'm over there, I ought to avoid the BP then :y
This is very well, and I woundn't like to spoil the party, but surely LPG is at it's lowest cost now. It can only go up ....
Nope... When I got my first LPG car it was around 35ppl... It's now around 65ppl :o :o :o
But equally, petrol was about 85ppl and now look at it ::)
Currently the duty difference between LPG and petrol will not decrease by more than 1p/year but don't know how long that will last :-/
Must confess, I doubt LPG will be viable for me within the next 5 years. Considering a Lexus Hybrid at the moment :-/
Noooooo! :o
A8 Diesel would be more economical...
That may be... But, and I know it was a rarity, after the bad weather this winter I miss the ground clearance of a 4x4 and the lexus is sensible on RFL as well as fuel... 45+ MPG is easily achievable, although it's a bit of a barge. Still pretty quick up to the speed limits, just slower on the autobahns ::) ::)
Speaking of Autobahns... Any chance you could PM me the details of the European Breakdown Firm you use?
Its no secret, its the ADAC, German version of the AA. Full European cover, and AA cover in the UK. Go for the + version, its around £70 for the year, just ring the German number and ask to speak to an English Adviser :y
Does that give full repatriation?
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Yes, i believe they tow you to nearest garage, if they can't do anything and its cream crackered they take it home. But i would ask them to be sure when you ring up, they answer in German, but i just ask for an english speaking advisor, found their service to be excellent :)