Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Banjax on 10 January 2011, 10:56:13
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If we had the same level of fatal shootings per capita as the US we'd have 800 a year.......the US's closest neighbour, Canada has a widespread gun culture too yet has nothing like the gun crime the States has, New Zealand, Russia, Norway have very lax gun control and there isn't the same rate either, nor Switzerland where every able-bodied man is required by law to have a gun.
What is it in the American psyche that causes this massively high rate of gun crime? Other countries seem to manage without shooting each other in the face for no apparent reason.
Or is it just that any Tom, Dick or Harry can wander into Woolies and buy a gun and ammo with no checks as its deemed a right to bear arms?
Americans must be getting the message slowly but surely that for whatever reason, they just can't be trusted with little or no gun control. Thats a fact, unfortunately its laughingly seen as being un-American to be for gun control.....utter madness. Continue to let mentally unstable psychos own semi-automatic weapons and we'll see how that goes, fingers crossed eh? :(
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I understand that the assailant was a drug user, which doesn't help. But, either way the US has a long history of such incidents. I shamelessly stole this from elsewhere (OK, from here, actually: http://raedwald.blogspot.com/2011/01/twitter-didnt-shoot-gabby-giffords-nor.html )
After Lincoln's assassination in 1865, Americans went on to kill 24 of their political officials by 1877, including a senator, two congressmen, three state governors, ten state legislators and eight judges. It was only after President Garfield's assassination in 1881 that this wave of political violence began to subside. More recently from the '60s to early '80s four out of six presidents were targeted by assassins, one successfully and one almost so. And not only Robert Kennedy but George Rockwell, John Lennon, Malcolm X, Medgar Evans and Martin Luther King all met their ends at the assassin's hands.
I expect it will continue and restrictive gun laws would make little difference. They haven't exactly stopped gun crime in the UK have they? If someone is hell-bent on causing mayhem with a shooter, they will. Law or no law.
Ironically, Congresswoman Gifford was not a proponent of gun laws.
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great link - and it makes a good point about priorities and perspective :y
the UK doesn't have anything like the level of gun crime per capita that they have in the states tho Nick - its really quite difficult to get hold of a handgun in this country - unless you're a vet you'd have to jump through a lot of hoops - of course you could buy off the black market, but either way its a lot of expense and hassle - as opposed to walking into a shop and handing cash over in the states :o
we have had incidents - Dunblane, Hungerford etc in this country but thankfully they're few and far between - in the states it appears to be a weekly occurence almost :(
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...- as opposed to walking into a shop and handing cash over in the states :o ......
I'm sure that not all states are like that. While in Florida a few years ago it was very strange for us to see a whole load of different fire arms for sale in the local Wall Mart, but I don't believe I could have put one in my trolly with the rest of our shopping. :-/
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...- as opposed to walking into a shop and handing cash over in the states :o ......
I'm sure that not all states are like that. While in Florida a few years ago it was very strange for us to see a whole load of different fire arms for sale in the local Wall Mart, but I don't believe I could have put one in my trolly with the rest of our shopping. :-/
Arizona has no gun control - i don't think you even need a license - but some states NY, California, Illinois have much stricter laws but generally its fairly easy to get a gun - just pop to another state if theres a problem, you may have to wait a few days for ammo in some cases but its fairly easy :o
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The United States of America was born out of the gun, to defend / attack the native Americans, to gain Independence from the British, to give personal protection to the individual white American as a right to protect their family and property.
No matter what the modern world teaches the USA, the fact is the American Constitution is near enough "set in stone", unlike the British unwritten constitution which can be amended at any time by due legal process, with Amendment 2 the key issue:
[size=18]The United States Constitution[/size]
Amendment 2 - Right to Bear Arms. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Definition of Infringe
infringe vb [Latin infringere] 1: violate, transgress 2: encroach, trespass Source: NMW
In the context of the Constitution, phrases like "shall not be infringed," "shall make no law," and "shall not be violated" sound pretty unbendable, but the Supreme Court has ruled that some laws can, in fact, encroach on these phrases. For example, though there is freedom of speech, you cannot slander someone; though you can own a pistol, you cannot own a nuclear weapon.
This crucial piece of American Law will never easily be changed without all political leaders in agreement to do so, which will take a very long time indeed to be amended, if ever!
;) ;)
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America is a crowded place and needs to control population ;D ;D :P :P :P
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America is a crowded place and needs to control population ;D ;D :P :P :P
Not as crowded as Great Britain Cem!! :D :D :D ;)
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seriously, civilization is not equal to technology and power.. its a long and painful path for a country to be civilized.. also which most of my citizens need to learn.. >:( >:(
by the way, where did I put my gun ;D
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I think Liz has hit the nail on the head - America as we know it was stolen, fought over, settled and won by the gun by Europeans so its in the countries DNA to carry a weapon - it'd be like outlawing the drinking of tea in Britain.
Americans ironically cling to guns for fear of violence, when its the guns themselves that cause most of it.......thats some catch that catch-22 :o
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seriously, civilization is not equal to technology and power.. its a long and painful path for a country to be civilized.. also which most of my citizens need to learn.. >:( >:(
by the way, where did I put my gun ;D
any country that still has the death penalty - Iran, Iraq, China, Saudi Arabia, Syria, North Korea, Sudan, USA, etc cannot be considered to be civilised in my book regardless of how many people drive expensive german cars in them :y
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shootings and violence will increase due to the amount of foreign gangs setting up over here competeing with british gangs. young kids get more credibilty if they own a gun, ghettos are in places where the police will not go. drugs plays the biggest part in crime for its huge revenue it brings to them. everywhere is becoming territorial now to the gangs. prison is a doddle. its a cushy life inside for most people now.
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What is it in the American psyche that causes this massively high rate of gun crime? :(
Yes, I think that is an important point to consider (aside from the firearms question in general) there seems to have been a strange dichotomy in the socio-economic structure within the US for some considerable time - black/white, native American/white, Hispanic/white etc., have/have-nots, right/left, North/South, dope heads/non-users and so on.
This, to me at least, has provided the ground upon which people have been able to ally their fears or act upon their inclinations or impulse by using firearms either in an offensive or defensive manner.
The fact that firearms are so readily available (for the most part) simply provides the means by which a people already at war with themselves can take that one further step towards reinforcing their point of view.
It's strange that many in such a sophisticated country can be driven by such base and simplistic motivators.
This particular incident lends little to the suggestion by some of the left-wing press that extreme right-wing politics within the US was partly responsible for this incident - far from it in my view, I think the basic cause is the availability of firearms to an immature population (in the general sense of political/social awareness) more inclined to acting on impulse rather than pragmatism.
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Yes, I think that is an important point to consider (aside from the firearms question in general) there seems to have been a strange dichotomy in the socio-economic structure within the US for some considerable time - black/white, native American/white, Hispanic/white etc., have/have-nots, right/left, North/South, dope heads/non-users and so on.
Yep, and we are concerned about inequality!
The opposition to Obama's "communist" health service proposals shows that the "Haves" in the U.S. Are keen to keep the status quo, too, IMHO. I.E. If you're in need but you can't pay, tough!
Perhaps this is a symptom of such an "immature" society?
Kevin
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Yep, and we are concerned about inequality!
The opposition to Obama's "communist" health service proposals shows that the "Haves" in the U.S. Are keen to keep the status quo, too, IMHO. I.E. If you're in need but you can't pay, tough!
Perhaps this is a symptom of such an "immature" society?
Kevin
I would go further and suggest that the US has a fundamentally divided society despite the many suggestions that Americans rally under the Flag in times of trouble.
Barak Obama has been the catalyst for this schism to become more pronounced. Just after he was elected I said that he held the potential to become one of the most divisive Commander's in Chief of recent times - on the basis of what's happening there since his inauguration I would standby that.
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It is a fallacy to beleive that by increasing gun control you reduce gun crime, as the previous government were warned, ignored and then saw happen before their eyes.
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may I remind a fact, if those guns are forbid, what will do the arms industry in USA.. they are the part of their system! and have strong relations with politicians.. ;)
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statistics prooved that , guns handy in houses increase crime rates, at least between wife and husband ;D :P
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Did someone mention Obama?
This is a direct quote from Sen. Barack Obama (talking about Republicans) at a town hall meeting at Radnor Middle School in Wayne, Pa., Saturday, June 14 2008:
“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun, because from what I understand folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.”
Hmm. Right. ::) ::) ;)
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Did someone mention Obama?
This is a direct quote from Sen. Barack Obama (talking about Republicans) at a town hall meeting at Radnor Middle School in Wayne, Pa., Saturday, June 14 2008:
“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun, because from what I understand folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.”
Hmm. Right. ::) ::) ;)
one of the few world leaders who has the timing and skill to tell a joke - have a look at the recent paul mccartney/hall of fame speech :y
most politicians come across as idiots when they try to be funny, at least O is genuinely funny - well W was genuinely funny, but not in a way he meant, David "Dave" C, Gideon O, Gordon B, Maggie T, etc are/were all cringeworthy when they tried it. Nick Clegg and Tony Blair could pull off a decent gag, but now everyone hates them so its out of the equation :y
actually hmmm- funny politicians - theres a thread 8-)
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I think Liz has hit the nail on the head - America as we know it was stolen, fought over, settled and won by the gun by Europeans so its in the countries DNA to carry a weapon - it'd be like outlawing the drinking of tea in Britain.
Americans ironically cling to guns for fear of violence, when its the guns themselves that cause most of it.......thats some catch that catch-22 :o
Exactly BJ, it is all part of their culture as well as part of the Constitution as I highlighted before.
It is all part of being an American, based on the history of literally fighting for their justice and rights. They trust no other country on Earth but themselves, yet do not trust each other! The average American know they have a lot of hard ball, trigger happy, red necks across a country far bigger than anyone in Britain can begin to imagine unless you have been there. A very high proportion of Americans would feel highly vulnerable without their own personal weapons, as that is not only the American way, but they need to defend themselves when back up may be hundreds of miles away in a "wild west" tradition. To ask the Americans to give up their right of arms, is like Brussels asking the British to give up eating roast beef; would we? Like hell!! Nor then will the Americans give up that right without dramatic legal and national change!
They are though a very proud nation, not immature but, I suggest, matured on the use of weapons to gain their rights throughout their relatively short history. They would no doubt not only fight again for their country, fiercely (their US Army recruitment numbers are normally always above target), but would fight again for the freedom of the western world as part of the defense of the USA!
Britain is a different culture and I suggest we cannot compare our standing on wearing guns to the situation in the United States. It is like comparing chalk and cheese. After all what they do in their own country is up to them. ;) ;)
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I think Liz has hit the nail on the head - America as we know it was stolen, fought over, settled and won by the gun by Europeans so its in the countries DNA to carry a weapon - it'd be like outlawing the drinking of tea in Britain.
Americans ironically cling to guns for fear of violence, when its the guns themselves that cause most of it.......thats some catch that catch-22 :o
Exactly BJ, it is all part of their culture as well as part of the Constitution as I highlighted before.
It is all part of being an American, based on the history of literally fighting for their justice and rights. They trust no other country on Earth but themselves, yet do not trust each other! The average American know they have a lot of hard ball, trigger happy, red necks across a country far bigger than anyone in Britain can begin to imagine unless you have been there. A very high proportion of Americans would feel highly vulnerable without their own personal weapons, as that is not only the American way, but they need to defend themselves when back up may be hundreds of miles away in a "wild west" tradition. To ask the Americans to give up their right of arms, is like Brussels asking the British to give up eating roast beef; would we? Like hell!! Nor then will the Americans give up that right without dramatic legal and national change!
They are though a very proud nation, not immature but, I suggest, matured on the use of weapons to gain their rights throughout their relatively short history. They would no doubt not only fight again for their country, fiercely (their US Army recruitment numbers are normally always above target), but would fight again for the freedom of the western world as part of the defense of the USA!
Britain is a different culture and I suggest we cannot compare our standing on wearing guns to the situation in the United States. It is like comparing chalk and cheese. After all what they do in their own country is up to them. ;) ;)
yes.. but until they got bored and try those things on us ;D :y
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I think Liz has hit the nail on the head - America as we know it was stolen, fought over, settled and won by the gun by Europeans so its in the countries DNA to carry a weapon - it'd be like outlawing the drinking of tea in Britain.
Americans ironically cling to guns for fear of violence, when its the guns themselves that cause most of it.......thats some catch that catch-22 :o
Exactly BJ, it is all part of their culture as well as part of the Constitution as I highlighted before.
It is all part of being an American, based on the history of literally fighting for their justice and rights. They trust no other country on Earth but themselves, yet do not trust each other! The average American know they have a lot of hard ball, trigger happy, red necks across a country far bigger than anyone in Britain can begin to imagine unless you have been there. A very high proportion of Americans would feel highly vulnerable without their own personal weapons, as that is not only the American way, but they need to defend themselves when back up may be hundreds of miles away in a "wild west" tradition. To ask the Americans to give up their right of arms, is like Brussels asking the British to give up eating roast beef; would we? Like hell!! Nor then will the Americans give up that right without dramatic legal and national change!
They are though a very proud nation, not immature but, I suggest, matured on the use of weapons to gain their rights throughout their relatively short history. They would no doubt not only fight again for their country, fiercely (their US Army recruitment numbers are normally always above target), but would fight again for the freedom of the western world as part of the defense of the USA!
Britain is a different culture and I suggest we cannot compare our standing on wearing guns to the situation in the United States. It is like comparing chalk and cheese. After all what they do in their own country is up to them. ;) ;)
yes.. but until they got bored and try those things on us ;D :y
No that is strictly controlled....................................to their military which go in for Blue on Blue fire, always have done, always will!!! They are trigger happy!! ::) ::) ::) ::)
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I think Liz has hit the nail on the head - America as we know it was stolen, fought over, settled and won by the gun by Europeans so its in the countries DNA to carry a weapon - it'd be like outlawing the drinking of tea in Britain.
Americans ironically cling to guns for fear of violence, when its the guns themselves that cause most of it.......thats some catch that catch-22 :o
Exactly BJ, it is all part of their culture as well as part of the Constitution as I highlighted before.
It is all part of being an American, based on the history of literally fighting for their justice and rights. They trust no other country on Earth but themselves, yet do not trust each other! The average American know they have a lot of hard ball, trigger happy, red necks across a country far bigger than anyone in Britain can begin to imagine unless you have been there. A very high proportion of Americans would feel highly vulnerable without their own personal weapons, as that is not only the American way, but they need to defend themselves when back up may be hundreds of miles away in a "wild west" tradition. To ask the Americans to give up their right of arms, is like Brussels asking the British to give up eating roast beef; would we? Like hell!! Nor then will the Americans give up that right without dramatic legal and national change!
They are though a very proud nation, not immature but, I suggest, matured on the use of weapons to gain their rights throughout their relatively short history. They would no doubt not only fight again for their country, fiercely (their US Army recruitment numbers are normally always above target), but would fight again for the freedom of the western world as part of the defense of the USA!
Britain is a different culture and I suggest we cannot compare our standing on wearing guns to the situation in the United States. It is like comparing chalk and cheese. After all what they do in their own country is up to them. ;) ;)
yes.. but until they got bored and try those things on us ;D :y
No that is strictly controlled....................................to their military which go in for Blue on Blue fire, always have done, always will!!! They are trigger happy!! ::) ::) ::) ::)
or until they decide to bring us freedom ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :y
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careful Cem, arent there US bases in Turkey - this'll be getting monitored for un-American terrorist activity :y
can i just point out to any CIA/FBI/homeland security staff watching (hi!) personally i love the states: the Simpsons, the Wire, Curb Your Enthusiasm, Mad Men, cheeseburgers and coke, Steve Earle, the Boss, 60's and 70's muscle-cars, REM, comic books, New York, the Oakland Raiders, the Red Sox, IndyCar and Bill Hicks....to name a few things :y ::)
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careful Cem, arent there US bases in Turkey - this'll be getting monitored for un-American terrorist activity :y
can i just point out to any CIA/FBI/homeland security staff watching (hi!) personally i love the states: the Simpsons, the Wire, Curb Your Enthusiasm, Mad Men, cheeseburgers and coke, Steve Earle, the Boss, 60's and 70's muscle-cars, REM, comic books, New York, the Oakland Raiders, the Red Sox, IndyCar and Bill Hicks....to name a few things :y ::)
;D ;D ;D
yes there are.. and I cant say I'm pleased with them, especially with an unknown number of nukes with known/unknown targets >:(
but the list is also composed of things I like :y
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careful Cem, arent there US bases in Turkey - this'll be getting monitored for un-American terrorist activity :y
can i just point out to any CIA/FBI/homeland security staff watching (hi!) personally i love the states: the Simpsons, the Wire, Curb Your Enthusiasm, Mad Men, cheeseburgers and coke, Steve Earle, the Boss, 60's and 70's muscle-cars, REM, comic books, New York, the Oakland Raiders, the Red Sox, IndyCar and Bill Hicks....to name a few things :y ::)
Dit-O if you throw in Bill Monroe, Family Guy, Seinfeld and Messrs Smith and Wesson. :y
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Did someone mention Obama?
This is a direct quote from Sen. Barack Obama (talking about Republicans) at a town hall meeting at Radnor Middle School in Wayne, Pa., Saturday, June 14 2008:
“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun, because from what I understand folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.”
Hmm. Right. ::) ::) ;)
To counter that Palin has taken down one of her "motivational" posters - the one one with rifle sights, which relates to targeting specific politicians
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7046bo92a4 to see shot senators view , prior to this incident
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1345682/Sarah-Palin-hits-critics-blame-vitriolic-rhetoric-Arizona-shooting.html for info about Palin
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Did someone mention Obama?
This is a direct quote from Sen. Barack Obama (talking about Republicans) at a town hall meeting at Radnor Middle School in Wayne, Pa., Saturday, June 14 2008:
“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun, because from what I understand folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.”
Hmm. Right. ::) ::) ;)
To counter that Palin has taken down one of her "motivational" posters - the one one with rifle sights, which relates to targeting specific politicians
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7046bo92a4 to see shot senators view , prior to this incident
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1345682/Sarah-Palin-hits-critics-blame-vitriolic-rhetoric-Arizona-shooting.html for info about Palin
The incident has nothing to do with Left/Right politics, but is more to do with a deranged young man. It is sad that so many in the US and UK chose to vilify Palin & the Tea Party movement instead of mourning the loss of 6 lives including that of a 9-year-old girl. I chose the Obama quote to show that there is little difference between Palin's "gunsights" and Obama's "gun" threat, except the former is jumped upon by sick people wishing to exploit a tragedy for their own political ends. That Ms Palin has removed her website image is to be applauded, not least as a mark of respect. :y
In my book, there is actually nothing wrong either in Obama's words, nor Palin's graphic. They are merely used to add a bit of theatrical substance to the political battle between Democrat & Republican parties in the States. :y
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Both the left and the right in the US have used war terminology to describe their campaign efforts. Certain journalists have used Palin's cross-hair image to suggest there was a causal link between it and the shooting, despite there being no evidence to support it and plenty to show the offender was, if anything, not a Tea party supporter.
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Both the left and the right in the US have used war terminology to describe their campaign efforts. Certain journalists have used Palin's cross-hair image to suggest there was a causal link between it and the shooting, despite there being no evidence to support it and plenty to show the offender was, if anything, not a Tea party supporter.
I would certainly agree with that Blue :y It was a cert that elements of the Democratic Party and their camp-followers would exploit this incident for their own party political ends.
It would be a mistake for the GOP or Tea Party to slacken the pressure on the Democrats or Barak Obama as a result of these cheap tactics.
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im doing a road trip from arizona thru to california in june hahaha i hope i dont end up shot!!!!!
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im doing a road trip from arizona thru to california in june hahaha i hope i dont end up shot!!!!!
get a body armour ;D
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im doing a road trip from arizona thru to california in june hahaha i hope i dont end up shot!!!!!
you will meet some of the most friendly people you ever get to meet,
just get used to the "you sure do talk funny" and "are you really driving all that way?"
they think petrol is expensive, try not to laugh.
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hahaha i know, my mrs is from ft. worth, tx. we went to texas 2 years back. i filled up the tank in our ford focus and it was $25 from almost empty to full. at the time i think that worked out to be 15 squid hahahaha
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i see the hilarious Fox News has now turned on Sheriff Dupnik of Pima County for daring to suggest that America may have a problem - you made the mistake of not toeing the Fox news line Dupnik, now you're a lily-livered commie :y
fair
and
balanced
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But those good ol boys down in Arkansas probably think Fox news is a little bit on the pink side for their liking, so its all relative. ;) ;D
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im doing a road trip from arizona thru to california in june hahaha i hope i dont end up shot!!!!!
you will meet some of the most friendly people you ever get to meet,
just get used to the "you sure do talk funny" and "are you really driving all that way?"
they think petrol is expensive, try not to laugh.
:-? ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :y
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But those good ol boys down in Arkansas probably think Fox news is a little bit on the pink side for their liking, so its all relative. ;) ;D
;D ;D ;D :y
i have the sudden urge to see an orange '69 charger flying through the air Albs
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRX4mlFi06A[/media]
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But those good ol boys down in Arkansas probably think Fox news is a little bit on the pink side for their liking, so its all relative. ;) ;D
Some people, however, have legitimate concerns over the direction an Obama Administration is pointing the country towards;
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc_HzbAyRR0[/media]
Oh yeah, you go girl. :-* :-* :-* :y