Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Varche on 29 January 2011, 10:43:09
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Exciting times for the Arab world. I wonder where will be next?
I also wonder if those folk that can afford foreign holidays will look back to the relative security of EU zone holidays e.g. Spain albeit with poor exchange rate.
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We were planning another holiday to Tunisia but have changed our mind now... Probably holiday in the UK again this year now, although Italy may be a possibility :y
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Algeria and Syria seem ripe for unrest, according to todays paper :o
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/a-region-in-turmoil-how-far-will-the-unrest-spread-2197950.html
Egypt arent handling this well clamping down on internet and mobile phones thinking its a "facebook and twitter" revolution, and the Pres coming on and saying "OK,OK I get that you're peed off - I've sac ked the government and I'll appoint a new one!!!"
no, einstein - its you who needs to leave ;)
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Oh, if only the Americans had supported the British during the Suez debacle in 1956! ::) ::) ::) :D :D :D
Egypt would be very different politically now :-X :-X :-X :-X
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Oh, if only the Americans had supported the British during the Suez debacle in 1956! ::) ::) ::) :D :D :D
Eygpt would be very different politically now :-X :-X :-X :-X
the last death throes of a once great (ie huge) empire - isnt that when Britain realised we no longer "ruled the waves" Liz? :o
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Oh, if only the Americans had supported the British during the Suez debacle in 1956! ::) ::) ::) :D :D :D
Egypt would be very different politically now :-X :-X :-X :-X
the last death throes of a once great (ie huge) empire - isnt that when Britain realised we no longer "ruled the waves" Liz? :o
Oh yes indeed BJ :'(
It is also the time the British found out that the USA were now fully the masters, and we were the bit players on the world scene! We could have pulled off the Suez action, but with the Americans seething over how Anthony Eden had handled it they just would not step in to diplomatically save our bacon! ::) ::) ::) ::)
It still does stop us wondering though what Egypt would be like now if the upper hand not been gained by President Nasser. One of those ifs and maybes of history! :D :D ;)
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Lets just hope that when the dust settles they dont end up with a fundamentalist regime. ;)
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Lets just hope that when the dust settles they dont end up with a fundamentalist regime. ;)
true Albs, but your countries in a bad way if fundamentalist religious nutters look like the good guys ;D
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Its a trick which has been pulled off on more than one occasion though - Iran for example. ;)
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Lets just hope that when the dust settles they dont end up with a fundamentalist regime. ;)
I hope not.. :(
and for the vacation , definitely stay away !! (serious)
come here ;D (joke)
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Yes I would be looking at Syria with increased concern as a breakdown of el Assad's leadership would have profound consequences for the western countries of the area. (Lebanon, Israel and the Palestine territories)
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Muslim Brotherhood perhaps? That would have the West quaking in their Doc Martins.
Good to see the special relationship was there right back in the times of Suez. Like I say, I am hard pressed to think of anything good to come out of the USA.
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Yes I would be looking at Syria with increased concern as a breakdown of el Assad's leadership would have profound consequences for the western countries of the area. (Lebanon, Israel and the Palestine territories)
Indeed ZL, and especially as Egypt has the highest population of Arabs out of all other nations.
Unrest is apparently growing in Jordan as well, with Israel now becoming "very nervous" so just watch the involvement of the USA grow! ::) ::) ::)
Oh, and I almost forgot; the other factor to watch out for is a serious rise of oil prices on the world markets due to "nervous" dealers!!!! ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
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Muslim Brotherhood perhaps? That would have the West quaking in their Doc Martins.
Good to see the special relationship was there right back in the times of Suez. Like I say, I am hard pressed to think of anything good to come out of the USA.
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Muslim Brotherhood perhaps? That would have the West quaking in their Doc Martins.
Good to see the special relationship was there right back in the times of Suez. Like I say, I am hard pressed to think of anything good to come out of the USA.
Well in fairness the USA were bank rolling the UK at the time, and Eden failed to inform the US (and other UK Government ministers!!) that we were getting the Israelis to invade, and the British and French forces to go in to 'stop' the Israelis and liberate Suez!!! Great plan eh?!!!! ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
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come to west drayton or hayes for the african experience. not much wildlife but the crimes here to match ;)
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Muslim Brotherhood perhaps? That would have the West quaking in their Doc Martins.
Good to see the special relationship was there right back in the times of Suez. Like I say, I am hard pressed to think of anything good to come out of the USA.
Well in fairness the USA were bank rolling the UK at the time, and Eden failed to inform the US (and other UK Government ministers!!) that we were getting the Israelis to invade, and the British and French forces to go in to 'stop' the Israelis and liberate Suez!!! Great plan eh?!!!! ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
Was that the Marshall Plan? The thing we only just managed to pay off a couple of years ago?
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we went bankrupt fighting the nazis - so at least it was for a good cause :y
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Muslim Brotherhood perhaps? That would have the West quaking in their Doc Martins.
Good to see the special relationship was there right back in the times of Suez. Like I say, I am hard pressed to think of anything good to come out of the USA.
Well in fairness the USA were bank rolling the UK at the time, and Eden failed to inform the US (and other UK Government ministers!!) that we were getting the Israelis to invade, and the British and French forces to go in to 'stop' the Israelis and liberate Suez!!! Great plan eh?!!!! ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
Was that the Marshall Plan? The think we only just managed to pay off a couple of years ago?
No Varche, that was the US financed economic plan, named after the Secretary of State General George Marshall for the reconstruction of Western Europe post 1947. Overall it involved American loans of $12,500,000,000. As for Britain it had come out of WW2 with a debt of £3 billion. It needed money to reconstruct the country, and buy the food, materials and fuel it required from America. A dollar deficit of $8 billion existed by 1946, and the crisis (and you all think we have a crisis now!!) of 1947, with terrible weather produced a withdrawal of $175.9 million on the American backed loan over just 5 days, with a further $850 million credits left to draw on IF the Americans didn't block it. I won't go through all the details here, but I recommend the following book for a full explanation of this particular crisis : Hennessy, P. Never Again Britain 1945-51 Penguin (2006)
The Suez economic crisis was something else, with the British Treasury again needing American support to maintain the Sterling rate of exchange, with great international fears about Britain's fragile economy and the effects on it of this latest war. But the actions of Eden put all that in jeopardy as the US was really upset by the whole Suez debacle, and the loan sought was coming with a US guarantee from lenders mostly under US control!! That is the reason why Eden had to pull every last soldier out of Suez and Britain was thus greatly humiliated. It is also blamed for not only finally signalling the end of the British Empire, but that of the French as well. Israel, if they had been trusted before by the Arab nations, was certainly no longer trusted! ;) ;)
Another good book covering this era, again by the same acclaimed author as before, is: Hennessy, P. Having it So Good Britain In The Fifties Penguin (2007)
Also I recommend: Sandbrook, D. Never Had It So Good Abacus (2005)
;) ;)
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thats what i said ::) :y
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No Varche, that was the US financed economic plan, named after the Secretary of State General George Marshall for the reconstruction of Western Europe post 1947. Overall it involved American loans of $12,500,000,000. As for Britain it had come out of WW2 with a debt of £3 billion. It needed money to reconstruct the country, and buy the food, materials and fuel it required from America. A dollar deficit of $8 billion existed by 1946, and the crisis (and you all think we have a crisis now!!) of 1947, with terrible weather produced a withdrawal of $175.9 million on the American backed loan over just 5 days, with a further $850 million credits left to draw on IF the Americans didn't block it. I won't go through all the details here, but I recommend the following book for a full explanation of this particular crisis : Hennessy, P. Never Again Britain 1945-51 Penguin (2006)
The Suez economic crisis was something else, with the British Treasury again needing American support to maintain the Sterling rate of exchange, with great international fears about Britain's fragile economy and the effects on it of this latest war. But the actions of Eden put all that in jeopardy as the US was really upset by the whole Suez debacle, and the loan sought was coming with a US guarantee from lenders mostly under US control!! That is the reason why Eden had to pull every last soldier out of Suez and Britain was thus greatly humiliated. It is also blamed for not only finally signalling the end of the British Empire, but that of the French as well. Israel, if they had been trusted before by the Arab nations, was certainly no longer trusted! ;) ;)
Another good book covering this era, again by the same acclaimed author as before, is: Hennessy, P. Having it So Good Britain In The Fifties Penguin (2007)
Also I recommend: Sandbrook, D. Never Had It So Good Abacus (2005)
;) ;)
You've stirred my interest there Lizzie. :-* :-*
I'm about to get some stuff from Amazon, of the three you mentioned what would I order first for a rounded picture of those circumstances?
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No Varche, that was the US financed economic plan, named after the Secretary of State General George Marshall for the reconstruction of Western Europe post 1947. Overall it involved American loans of $12,500,000,000. As for Britain it had come out of WW2 with a debt of £3 billion. It needed money to reconstruct the country, and buy the food, materials and fuel it required from America. A dollar deficit of $8 billion existed by 1946, and the crisis (and you all think we have a crisis now!!) of 1947, with terrible weather produced a withdrawal of $175.9 million on the American backed loan over just 5 days, with a further $850 million credits left to draw on IF the Americans didn't block it. I won't go through all the details here, but I recommend the following book for a full explanation of this particular crisis : Hennessy, P. Never Again Britain 1945-51 Penguin (2006)
The Suez economic crisis was something else, with the British Treasury again needing American support to maintain the Sterling rate of exchange, with great international fears about Britain's fragile economy and the effects on it of this latest war. But the actions of Eden put all that in jeopardy as the US was really upset by the whole Suez debacle, and the loan sought was coming with a US guarantee from lenders mostly under US control!! That is the reason why Eden had to pull every last soldier out of Suez and Britain was thus greatly humiliated. It is also blamed for not only finally signalling the end of the British Empire, but that of the French as well. Israel, if they had been trusted before by the Arab nations, was certainly no longer trusted! ;) ;)
Another good book covering this era, again by the same acclaimed author as before, is: Hennessy, P. Having it So Good Britain In The Fifties Penguin (2007)
Also I recommend: Sandbrook, D. Never Had It So Good Abacus (2005)
;) ;)
You've stirred my interest there Lizzie. :-* :-*
I'm about to get some stuff from Amazon, of the three you mentioned what would I order first for a rounded picture of those circumstances?
Both Hennessy books are best for both topics.
However Hennessy, P. Never Again Britain 1945-51 Penguin (2006) is the best for describing the full implications of the post war financial crisis for Britain, and especially that of the terrible year of 1947.
Hennessy, P. Having it So Good Britain In The Fifties Penguin (2007) is the best of the two for covering the Suez crisis in particular.
Also for Suez information I would then pick Sandbrook, D. Never Had It So Good Abacus (2005) as it gives another very full account of the whole episode and the aftermath.
Another book that covers the whole background and aftermath of Suez within the total International and general situation covering many aspects for Great Britain from 1951-1970 from the political point of view is: Harrison, B. The New Oxford History Of England: Seeking A Role Oxford University Press (2009)
All are very enjoyable and fully informative reads! Enjoy ZL! :D :D :D :y
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those long winter nights will fly by with those page-turners Z :y
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Both Hennessy books are best for both topics.
However Hennessy, P. Never Again Britain 1945-51 Penguin (2006) is the best for describing the full implications of the post war financial crisis for Britain, and especially that of the terrible year of 1947.
Hennessy, P. Having it So Good Britain In The Fifties Penguin (2007) is the best of the two for covering the Suez crisis in particular.
Also for Suez information I would then pick Sandbrook, D. Never Had It So Good Abacus (2005) as it gives another very full account of the whole episode and the aftermath.
Another book that covers the whole background and aftermath of Suez within the total International and general situation covering many aspects for Great Britain from 1951-1970 from the political point of view is: Harrison, B. The New Oxford History Of England: Seeking A Role Oxford University Press (2009)
All are very enjoyable and fully informative reads! Enjoy ZL! :D :D :D :y
Good stuff Lizzie, I've kicked off by ordering Having it so good to get me into the mood. 8-) :y
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Both Hennessy books are best for both topics.
However Hennessy, P. Never Again Britain 1945-51 Penguin (2006) is the best for describing the full implications of the post war financial crisis for Britain, and especially that of the terrible year of 1947.
Hennessy, P. Having it So Good Britain In The Fifties Penguin (2007) is the best of the two for covering the Suez crisis in particular.
Also for Suez information I would then pick Sandbrook, D. Never Had It So Good Abacus (2005) as it gives another very full account of the whole episode and the aftermath.
Another book that covers the whole background and aftermath of Suez within the total International and general situation covering many aspects for Great Britain from 1951-1970 from the political point of view is: Harrison, B. The New Oxford History Of England: Seeking A Role Oxford University Press (2009)
All are very enjoyable and fully informative reads! Enjoy ZL! :D :D :D :y
Good stuff Lizzie, I've kicked off by ordering Having it so good to get me into the mood. 8-) :y
:D :D :D :y :y :y
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those long winter nights will fly by with those page-turners Z :y
Yes BJ beside being inspired by Lizzie to look again at some recent history I really feel the need to try to understand a bit more of this particular crisis and how a different outcome may well have altered the region as it presently sits.
I love the tactile experience of actually holding a book although I'm flirting with the idea of a Kindle - but would really need to see one in operation before spending the money.
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If you want to go deeper into the Suez crisis ZL I would highly recommend the account within pp. 394-447 of : Horne, A. Macmillan 1894 - 1956 Vol.1 Macmillan (1998)
This gives a wonderful insight into Eden's inner circle including the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Macmillan, and his shamefull involvement by way of The Macmillan Scheme, with even diary entries being deliberately destroyed! Wonderful stuff! :D :D :D ;)
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If you want to go deeper into the Suez crisis ZL I would highly recommend the account within pp. 394-447 of : Horne, A. Macmillan 1894 - 1956 Vol.1 Macmillan (1998)
This gives a wonderful insight into Eden's inner circle including the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Macmillan, and his shamefull involvement by way of The Macmillan Scheme, with even diary entries being deliberately destroyed! Wonderful stuff! :D :D :D ;)
Yes the more I think about this Lizzie the more I see this as a fundamental point in this country's post -war realisation that the international scene had changed to such an extent it rendered our perceived closeness to the USA and faith in our military prowess to be questionable.
Perhaps this was a classic case of politics red, in tooth and claw?
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For too long, many nations, including the US, have tolerated, even excused, oppression in the Middle East in the name of stability. Oppression has become common, but stability has never arrived. We must take a different approach.
We must help the reformers of the Middle East as they work for freedom, and strive to build a community of peaceful, democratic nations.
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For too long, many nations, including the US, have tolerated, even excused, oppression in the Middle East in the name of stability. Oppression has become common, but stability has never arrived. We must take a different approach.
We must help the reformers of the Middle East as they work for freedom, and strive to build a community of peaceful, democratic nations.
Nothing to do with that, there is just no oil there we need ::)
If there was we would be there in double quick time!
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Are you saying theres no oil that we need in the middle east ? :-/ :o :o
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Are you saying theres no oil that we need in the middle east ? :-/ :o :o
Not in Egypt, Tunisia ect. West will let those places tear them selves apart, nothing there for us.
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First thing after USA
battling buying way into Iraq, they started piping the oil out...
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For too long, many nations, including the US, have tolerated, even excused, oppression in the Middle East in the name of stability. Oppression has become common, but stability has never arrived. We must take a different approach.
We must help the reformers of the Middle East as they work for freedom, and strive to build a community of peaceful, democratic nations.
There's no doubt that some form of different thinking has to be brought to bear Nick.
It appears to me that events may already be running at a pace beyond that which is reasonable for the orderly transition of power in not only Egypt, but the region in general.
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Are you saying theres no oil that we need in the middle east ? :-/ :o :o
Not in Egypt, Tunisia ect. West will let those places tear them selves apart, nothing there for us.
The problem with that T is if the situation in those particular countries did descend into anarchy the knock-on effect within the region in general would, without doubt, involve us at some future point.
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For too long, many nations, including the US, have tolerated, even excused, oppression in the Middle East in the name of stability. Oppression has become common, but stability has never arrived. We must take a different approach.
We must help the reformers of the Middle East as they work for freedom, and strive to build a community of peaceful, democratic nations.
There's no doubt that some form of different thinking has to be brought to bear Nick.
It appears to me that events may already be running at a pace beyond that which is reasonable for the orderly transition of power in not only Egypt, but the region in general.
I must admit that i was a bit naughty posting that, for it was not my words, but rather a paraphrase of a speech made by George W. Bush. Although he is always portrayed as a fool by lefties (like every Republican POTUS) his words ring true at this moment in time. ;)
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Are you saying theres no oil that we need in the middle east ? :-/ :o :o
Not in Egypt, Tunisia ect. West will let those places tear them selves apart, nothing there for us.
The problem with that T is if the situation in those particular countries did descend into anarchy the knock-on effect within the region in general would, without doubt, involve us at some future point.
But the big players won't be keen, Iraq, we (US) went in cause they wanted to, without UN/EU go ahead.
Now, EU/UN would want backing of a major power, but everyone will dig their heals in. Be bad for PR, bad for the bank balance, with no serious amounts of oil to steal, no one wants in.
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Are you saying theres no oil that we need in the middle east ? :-/ :o :o
Not in Egypt, Tunisia ect. West will let those places tear them selves apart, nothing there for us.
The problem with that T is if the situation in those particular countries did descend into anarchy the knock-on effect within the region in general would, without doubt, involve us at some future point.
But the big players won't be keen, Iraq, we (US) went in cause they wanted to, without UN/EU go ahead.
Now, EU/UN would want backing of a major power, but everyone will dig their heals in. Be bad for PR, bad for the bank balance, with no serious amounts of oil to steal, no one wants in.
Yes I think it's quite reasonable to say that there's little taste for further involvement in yet more international conflict by those already involved in Iraq/Afghanistan, however events may overtake desires.
Should Israel involve herself in the region militarily - either as a result of pre-emptive action or in response to being attacked - it's more than likely that the US (and perhaps this country) will be obliged to step in to prevent the deterioration of the security situation to the point where nuclear weapons will be likely to be deployed.
The nett result of an escalation to this degree would not only threaten stability in the immediate region but in the Middle East in general.
One such undesirable consequence of this, over and above rocketing oil prices/availability, would be the installation of overtly religious fundamentalists in power in many countries across the region - with all that this would imply for future stability of those nations and our continued relations with them.
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I must admit that i was a bit naughty posting that, for it was not my words, but rather a paraphrase of a speech made by George W. Bush. Although he is always portrayed as a fool by lefties (like every Republican POTUS) his words ring true at this moment in time. ;)
Was that made pre or post 9/11?
Whilst many still remain undecided about GWB (he was in my view poorly served by some in his administration) I would consider both Ronald Reagan and Dwight D. Eisenhower far from being foolish.
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those long winter nights will fly by with those page-turners Z :y
Yes BJ beside being inspired by Lizzie to look again at some recent history I really feel the need to try to understand a bit more of this particular crisis and how a different outcome may well have altered the region as it presently sits.
I love the tactile experience of actually holding a book although I'm flirting with the idea of a Kindle - but would really need to see one in operation before spending the money.
I agree Z, we tend to ignore vast swathes of history until it pops up to perhaps bite us in the rear - the future of Egypt is on a knife edge - i hope that a tyrant isn't replaced by fundamentalists, i hope and believe that the vast majority of Egyptians won't tolerate anything less than a fair, free election and return a liberal leader.....time will tell. Until then, the west should examine all their relationships and where they prop up dictators to control muslim extremists - maybe the choice isn't between 2 evils as we've all been led to believe, maybe we should be advocating the democracy we readily spout, let the peoples of any nation decide what they think is best and let the chips fall where they may - trying to control our interests in every part of the world is going to cost us heavily sooner rather than later :o
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I must admit that i was a bit naughty posting that, for it was not my words, but rather a paraphrase of a speech made by George W. Bush. Although he is always portrayed as a fool by lefties (like every Republican POTUS) his words ring true at this moment in time. ;)
Was that made pre or post 9/11?
Whilst many still remain undecided about GWB (he was in my view poorly served by some in his administration) I would consider both Ronald Reagan and Dwight D. Eisenhower far from being foolish.
Ronnie Ray-gun, Zulu? Really? You're getting soft in your old age - the man was a buffoon in my opinion :y
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Ronnie Ray-gun, Zulu? Really? You're getting soft in your old age - the man was a buffoon in my opinion :y
Ooh I don't know BJ, in these remarks back in '64 he touched on many issues, while specific to the situation at the time of an election in the US, the fundamental of these issues still has resonance today, indeed he could have been describing the effects of untrammelled power as exhibited by the EU or the direction of recent governments here.
Barry Goldwater, a long time GOP senator (Republican) was seeking office as President of the US. An ultra conservative, he was defeated by Lyndon Johnston (LBJ) a Democrat, in a landslide victory which also removed many Republicans from office.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHoOfcFM33c&feature=related[/media]
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I have come on here this morning and seen how this thread has gone. The opinions stated are very interesting, and cover the many complex issues of the Middle East.
I am not going to drone on about how I see it (yet!). I will only say that I think it is best if the Western powers stay right out of it! The Middle East, as British history proves, is a dangerous and complex place full of religious conflict going back centuries. Israel and the Arab states are at each others throats and all it needs to really spark everything off is for the USA, and allies, to go in thinking they can (Yet again) change everything to their advantage. It will end in another disaster for the West!
With Suez in 1956 the USSR came very close to becoming involved due to the actions of the British, French and Israel's. Just because the USSR has expired does not mean that Russian 'interests' in the region still exist; in addition of course you have Iran.............!!
No, the USA must stay out! ;)
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I have come on here this morning and seen how this thread has gone. The opinions stated are very interesting, and cover the many complex issues of the Middle East.
I am not going to drone on about how I see it (yet!). I will only say that I think it is best if the Western powers stay right out of it! The Middle East, as British history proves, is a dangerous and complex place full of religious conflict going back centuries. Israel and the Arab states are at each others throats and all it needs to really spark everything off is for the USA, and allies, to go in thinking they can (Yet again) change everything to their advantage. It will end in another disaster for the West!
With Suez in 1956 the USSR came very close to becoming involved due to the actions of the British, French and Israel's. Just because the USSR has expired does not mean that Russian 'interests' in the region still exist; in addition of course you have Iran.............!!
No, the USA must stay out! ;)
Yes, there is no doubt that any intervention by Western powers (the US in particular) may well undesirable results and I think you're right, the lessons of history - particularly of recent history - should be well remembered.
As there is at least one nuclear power in the region, intervention (preferably not of the unilateral variety) may be the lesser of many evils, in the short term at least, should the situation deteriorate to the point where it became apparent that those weapons would be likely to be deployed or threatened to be deployed.
The current events as we see them unfolding in Egypt and latterly in Tunisia could well be the harbinger of conflict in the region that will eventually evolve into international conflict.
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You can bet your bottom dollar that the U.S. is working behind the scenes to try to steer events towards an outcome which is suitable to them/the western world/ and the middle east itself.
The thought of Egypt falling into the hands of extremists will make their blood run cold. It could be the spark that sets of the powderkeg in the middle east, or at least makes Israel more nervous and vulnerable and therefore more likely to react aggressively. It cant be avoided imo, while there are forces working to achieve an extremist outcome (probably backed by Iran) then the west has little option but to counter that.
Its how they go about it which is the important thing. ;)
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You can bet your bottom dollar that the U.S. is working behind the scenes to try to steer events towards an outcome which is suitable to them/the western world/ and the middle east itself.
The thought of Egypt falling into the hands of extremists will make their blood run cold. It could be the spark that sets of the powderkeg in the middle east, or at least makes Israel more nervous and vulnerable and therefore more likely to react aggressively. It cant be avoided imo, while there are forces working to achieve an extremist outcome (probably backed by Iran) then the west has little option but to counter that.
Its how they go about it which is the important thing. ;)
If the Egyptian people decide they want to elect Muslim extremists, however unpalatable that is to the west, its their country, their choice - the west sticking its oar never works.....maybe its time we learned that? :o
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Fair enough, as long as they stay within their own borders,are completely insular, and dont try to influence or get involved in anything outside their own country. ;)
But the fact is that Muslim fundamentalists see themselves as a global movement with a global mission and they have had a lot of success in spreading their poison across the globe.
Thats why the west have no realistic choice but to be involved at some level. :y
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Fair enough, as long as they stay within their own borders,are completely insular, and dont try to influence or get involved in anything outside their own country. ;)
But the fact is that Muslim fundamentalists see themselves as a global movement with a global mission and they have had a lot of success in spreading their poison across the globe.
Thats why the west have no realistic choice but to be involved at some level. :y
thats a fair point Albs, but the same could easily be said of the USA, surely? They'll support the evilest of dictators while it suits them, no wonder its so easy for muslim extremists to recruit terrorists against the west - we hardly set a shining example of democracy do we? besides theres over 1.5bn muslims, i'd say very few are hellbent on destroying the west or they would have by now - dont compare how many muslims we've killed illegally with how many westerners have been killed by muslim extremists its amazing we're still around if they're all nuts quite frankly :o
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Fair enough, as long as they stay within their own borders,are completely insular, and dont try to influence or get involved in anything outside their own country. ;)
But the fact is that Muslim fundamentalists see themselves as a global movement with a global mission and they have had a lot of success in spreading their poison across the globe.
Thats why the west have no realistic choice but to be involved at some level. :y
thats a fair point Albs, but the same could easily be said of the USA, surely? They'll support the evilest of dictators while it suits them, no wonder its so easy for muslim extremists to recruit terrorists against the west - we hardly set a shining example of democracy do we? besides theres over 1.5bn muslims, i'd say very few are hellbent on destroying the west or they would have by now - dont compare how many muslims we've killed illegally with how many westerners have been killed by muslim extremists its amazing we're still around if they're all nuts quite frankly :o
Christ ! where do I start ? ::)The USA and other western govts. have (and im sure still do) give support to regimes which are far from fair and democratic.They would Im sure argue with some justification that they were usually choosing the lesser of two evils. This was especially true during the cold war period where they would support a right wing dictatorship, because the alternative was a Soviet supported communist dictatorship.The same has also happened with middle eastern regimes - supporting Saddam, rather than letting the nutters who rule Iran, take over Iraq and gain a lot of power in the region and further afield.
I did not and never would suggest that all Muslims are extremists who want to kill all us Westerners, no idea why your answer infers that I did ? :-/ :o
"We" didnt illegally kill Muslims - our (Liebore) govt. sent our armed forces to war against the wishes of its electorate,legal advisers, the UN and anyone else you can think of who had the right to have some say in the matter.
Your right, we havent been a shining example of democracy - Blair suspended the democratic process completely in this country, until it came to election time and then he lied through his teeth (even by the normal political standards) to people, who quite frankly are too stupid to be allowed to vote anyway. :y
P.S The U.S. pumps a lot $$$ in aid into Egypt (no doubt to buy leverage and help ensure stability) so they may well argue that it is their business. ;)
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You can bet your bottom dollar that the U.S. is working behind the scenes to try to steer events towards an outcome which is suitable to them/the western world/ and the middle east itself.
The thought of Egypt falling into the hands of extremists will make their blood run cold. It could be the spark that sets of the powderkeg in the middle east, or at least makes Israel more nervous and vulnerable and therefore more likely to react aggressively. It cant be avoided imo, while there are forces working to achieve an extremist outcome (probably backed by Iran) then the west has little option but to counter that.
Its how they go about it which is the important thing. ;)
If the Egyptian people decide they want to elect Muslim extremists, however unpalatable that is to the west, its their country, their choice - the west sticking its oar never works.....maybe its time we learned that? :o
I hate this "de ja vu" >:(
noooooooooooo..
we have seen this film before..in iran.. usa made historical mistakes supporting the shah.. then the masses rebel against for "democracy" and what happened.. leftists helped.. and extremists cut the neck of those leftists .. never again >:( >:( >:(
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people one day will understand that how dangerous religion can be..
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A full division of tanks rolled into Cairo today, with F16 jets screaming overhead. But it seems the army is trying to stay onside with the protesters, and the USA have rubbed in the fact that the military hardware has been paid for by them! US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has called for an "orderly transition" to democracy in Egypt.
Who's placing bets on how long President Hosni Mubarak can hold on for?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12319702
Yes, link is to the BBC ::) ::) ::) ::) However I have also listened to the ITN News and their coverage was the same!! :D ;)
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A full division of tanks rolled into Cairo today, with F16 jets screaming overhead. But it seems the army is trying to stay onside with the protesters, and the USA have rubbed in the fact that the military hardware has been paid for by them! US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has called for an "orderly transition" to democracy in Egypt.
Who's placing bets on how long President Hosni Mubarak can hold on for?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12319702
Yes, link is to the BBC ::) ::) ::) ::) However I have also listened to the ITN News and their coverage was the same!! :D ;)
his "best until" date is passed already ;D :-/
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Fair enough, as long as they stay within their own borders,are completely insular, and dont try to influence or get involved in anything outside their own country. ;)
But the fact is that Muslim fundamentalists see themselves as a global movement with a global mission and they have had a lot of success in spreading their poison across the globe.
Thats why the west have no realistic choice but to be involved at some level. :y
thats a fair point Albs, but the same could easily be said of the USA, surely? They'll support the evilest of dictators while it suits them, no wonder its so easy for muslim extremists to recruit terrorists against the west - we hardly set a shining example of democracy do we? besides theres over 1.5bn muslims, i'd say very few are hellbent on destroying the west or they would have by now - dont compare how many muslims we've killed illegally with how many westerners have been killed by muslim extremists its amazing we're still around if they're all nuts quite frankly :o
Christ ! where do I start ? ::)The USA and other western govts. have (and im sure still do) give support to regimes which are far from fair and democratic.They would Im sure argue with some justification that they were usually choosing the lesser of two evils. This was especially true during the cold war period where they would support a right wing dictatorship, because the alternative was a Soviet supported communist dictatorship.The same has also happened with middle eastern regimes - supporting Saddam, rather than letting the nutters who rule Iran, take over Iraq and gain a lot of power in the region and further afield.
I did not and never would suggest that all Muslims are extremists who want to kill all us Westerners, no idea why your answer infers that I did ? :-/ :o
"We" didnt illegally kill Muslims - our (Liebore) govt. sent our armed forces to war against the wishes of its electorate,legal advisers, the UN and anyone else you can think of who had the right to have some say in the matter.
Your right, we havent been a shining example of democracy - Blair suspended the democratic process completely in this country, until it came to election time and then he lied through his teeth (even by the normal political standards) to people, who quite frankly are too stupid to be allowed to vote anyway. :y
P.S The U.S. pumps a lot $$$ in aid into Egypt (no doubt to buy leverage and help ensure stability) so they may well argue that it is their business. ;)
of course i know that you know that all muslims arent extremists Albs - i'm just highlighting the black and white story we tend to be fed by our governments -not all muslims are bad, not all democratically elected western leaders are good- i was watching the excellent coverage on Aljazeera as well as Sky and BBC last night, now these people demonstrating in the streets arent radicals, they're not terrorists hell bent on global domination, they're ordinary office workers, teachers, taxi drivers, builders, students, parents, grandparents, they're just normal people like anyone else - normal people who are sick of a regime that lives like pharoahs while they struggle, sick of a regime that imprisons tens of thousands of their fellow citizens on a whim - governments cant operate through fear anymore - the world is too small - i only hope that the muslim brotherhood doesnt step in to fill the vacuum - that would be disastrous as cem says :(
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I'm afraid the common denominator of these masses will be on the job again.. and plus , its always supported by some countries and finance which will soon be a power and rise as usual.. >:(
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of course i know that you know that all muslims arent extremists Albs - i'm just highlighting the black and white story we tend to be fed by our governments -not all muslims are bad, not all democratically elected western leaders are good- i was watching the excellent coverage on Aljazeera as well as Sky and BBC last night, now these people demonstrating in the streets arent radicals, they're not terrorists hell bent on global domination, they're ordinary office workers, teachers, taxi drivers, builders, students, parents, grandparents, they're just normal people like anyone else - normal people who are sick of a regime that lives like pharoahs while they struggle, sick of a regime that imprisons tens of thousands of their fellow citizens on a whim - governments cant operate through fear anymore - the world is too small - i only hope that the muslim brotherhood doesnt step in to fill the vacuum - that would be disastrous as cem says :(
I would agree with you on that. I know your atheist views but, if you could put them on hold for a moment, you should read the excellent Cranmer's views, which are not a million miles away from yours. Essentially, it is the Wahhabi strain of Islamists that we should fear, the Sunnis being more peaceable.
http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2011/01/egypt-and-islam-democracy-or.html
:y
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of course i know that you know that all muslims arent extremists Albs - i'm just highlighting the black and white story we tend to be fed by our governments -not all muslims are bad, not all democratically elected western leaders are good- i was watching the excellent coverage on Aljazeera as well as Sky and BBC last night, now these people demonstrating in the streets arent radicals, they're not terrorists hell bent on global domination, they're ordinary office workers, teachers, taxi drivers, builders, students, parents, grandparents, they're just normal people like anyone else - normal people who are sick of a regime that lives like pharoahs while they struggle, sick of a regime that imprisons tens of thousands of their fellow citizens on a whim - governments cant operate through fear anymore - the world is too small - i only hope that the muslim brotherhood doesnt step in to fill the vacuum - that would be disastrous as cem says :(
I would agree with you on that. I know your atheist views but, if you could put them on hold for a moment, you should read the excellent Cranmer's views, which are not a million miles away from yours. Essentially, it is the Wahhabi strain of Islamists that we should fear, the Sunnis being more peaceable.
http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2011/01/egypt-and-islam-democracy-or.html
:y
religion and democracy , water and oil :-X
been there a hundred times.. done that a hundred times (history) .. No!
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religion and democracy , water and oil :-X
been there a hundred times.. done that a hundred times (history) .. No!
Rubbish. There are plenty of deeply religious countries, both secular and non-secular, that are free and democratic. ::) ::) :(
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religion and democracy , water and oil :-X
been there a hundred times.. done that a hundred times (history) .. No!
Rubbish. There are plenty of deeply religious countries, both secular and non-secular, that are free and democratic. ::) ::) :(
first divide into two.. east and west.. for east trust me not worth talking about.. totally non-secular , and if so , just on the paper..
and west.. passed from long historical religious wars , so got the lesson somewhat to an extent.. but if you dig a bit, you wont like what you see :-X
commie countries not included for the obvious reason..
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and as for the democracy.. counting the votes one day and forgetting other times is not democracy..
you know who rules..
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religion and democracy , water and oil :-X
been there a hundred times.. done that a hundred times (history) .. No!
Rubbish. There are plenty of deeply religious countries, both secular and non-secular, that are free and democratic. ::) ::) :(
first divide into two.. east and west.. for east trust me not worth talking about.. totally non-secular , and if so , just on the paper..
and west.. passed from long historical religious wars , so got the lesson somewhat to an extent.. but if you dig a bit, you wont like what you see :-X
You clearly miss the point that, over the centuries, religions have been the vehicles of expression for different lifestyles and cultures. Here in the UK, we have been a Christian country, observing Christian holidays. And yet, we have been democratic (though we have now, in my opinion become post-democratic, though that is nothing to do with religion). Here, there are many Muslims who happily live alongside Christians and Jews, and it is often the most devout (though not extremist) that will readily accept such a situation.
Where religions have not gone through such enlightenment, and where religion - or rather culture, (since it has little to do with personal spirituality) - is foist upon others, promoted by a fanaticism matched by the worst type of football fan - who goes to a match to kick hell out of anyone that does not support their team - that problems occur. So, it is not religion per se, that is the problem, but the clash of cultures, often exacerbated by the spread of false fears by extremist leaders.
I feel sure that Israel and her Arab neighbours could co-exist peacefully were it not for the power-hungry leaders of certain groups whose rhetoric is designed to inflame tensions deliberately. :(
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and as for the democracy.. counting the votes one day and forgetting other times is not democracy..
you know who rules..
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of course i know that you know that all muslims arent extremists Albs - i'm just highlighting the black and white story we tend to be fed by our governments -not all muslims are bad, not all democratically elected western leaders are good- i was watching the excellent coverage on Aljazeera as well as Sky and BBC last night, now these people demonstrating in the streets arent radicals, they're not terrorists hell bent on global domination, they're ordinary office workers, teachers, taxi drivers, builders, students, parents, grandparents, they're just normal people like anyone else - normal people who are sick of a regime that lives like pharoahs while they struggle, sick of a regime that imprisons tens of thousands of their fellow citizens on a whim - governments cant operate through fear anymore - the world is too small - i only hope that the muslim brotherhood doesnt step in to fill the vacuum - that would be disastrous as cem says :(
I would agree with you on that. I know your atheist views but, if you could put them on hold for a moment, you should read the excellent Cranmer's views, which are not a million miles away from yours. Essentially, it is the Wahhabi strain of Islamists that we should fear, the Sunnis being more peaceable.
http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2011/01/egypt-and-islam-democracy-or.html
:y
Nickbat - i read that blog with interest, and it doesnt fill me with much hope if extremists gain control.....but what right does anyone other than Egyptians themselves have to decide? is or will Iran work behind the scenes to see the wahabbis or other fundamentalist muslims in power? and if so do we then have the right to influence the more liberal wings? and why should any egyptian (or any arab or muslim for that matter) believe us? we're the ones after all, that kept their hated president in power? why should they wish to believe we want democracy when clearly we dont? fascinating, complex, delicate and scary.....and i wish i'd studied more middle eastern history as i feel i've only got a few small parts of a much bigger puzzle :o
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religion and democracy , water and oil :-X
been there a hundred times.. done that a hundred times (history) .. No!
Rubbish. There are plenty of deeply religious countries, both secular and non-secular, that are free and democratic. ::) ::) :(
first divide into two.. east and west.. for east trust me not worth talking about.. totally non-secular , and if so , just on the paper..
and west.. passed from long historical religious wars , so got the lesson somewhat to an extent.. but if you dig a bit, you wont like what you see :-X
You clearly miss the point that, over the centuries, religions have been the vehicles of expression for different lifestyles and cultures. Here in the UK, we have been a Christian country, observing Christian holidays.
no problems with your Christianity Nick..
And yet, we have been democratic (though we have now, in my opinion become post-democratic, though that is nothing to do with religion). Here, there are many Muslims who happily live alongside Christians and Jews, and it is often the most devout (though not extremist) that will readily accept such a situation.
answer censored by myself before admins :(
sorry.. clues: locals, immigrants,crisis,end of peace
Where religions have not gone through such enlightenment, and where religion - or rather culture, (since it has little to do with personal spirituality) - is foist upon others, promoted by a fanaticism matched by the worst type of football fan - who goes to a match to kick hell out of anyone that does not support their team - that problems occur. So, it is not religion per se,
it is the religion which is the driving force.. go read the lines of the book..you know which ..
that is the problem, but the clash of cultures, often exacerbated by the spread of false fears by extremist leaders.
I feel sure that Israel and her Arab neighbours could co-exist peacefully
impossible.. first reason of fight : the land.. so economic.. second reason : its shifted to be a religious fight.. ;)
were it not for the power-hungry leaders of certain groups whose rhetoric is designed to inflame tensions deliberately. :(
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of course i know that you know that all muslims arent extremists Albs - i'm just highlighting the black and white story we tend to be fed by our governments -not all muslims are bad, not all democratically elected western leaders are good- i was watching the excellent coverage on Aljazeera as well as Sky and BBC last night, now these people demonstrating in the streets arent radicals, they're not terrorists hell bent on global domination, they're ordinary office workers, teachers, taxi drivers, builders, students, parents, grandparents, they're just normal people like anyone else - normal people who are sick of a regime that lives like pharoahs while they struggle, sick of a regime that imprisons tens of thousands of their fellow citizens on a whim - governments cant operate through fear anymore - the world is too small - i only hope that the muslim brotherhood doesnt step in to fill the vacuum - that would be disastrous as cem says :(
I would agree with you on that. I know your atheist views but, if you could put them on hold for a moment, you should read the excellent Cranmer's views, which are not a million miles away from yours. Essentially, it is the Wahhabi strain of Islamists that we should fear, the Sunnis being more peaceable.
http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2011/01/egypt-and-islam-democracy-or.html
:y
Nickbat - i read that blog with interest, and it doesnt fill me with much hope if extremists gain control.....but what right does anyone other than Egyptians themselves have to decide? is or will Iran work behind the scenes to see the wahabbis or other fundamentalist muslims in power? and if so do we then have the right to influence the more liberal wings? and why should any egyptian (or any arab or muslim for that matter) believe us? we're the ones after all, that kept their hated president in power? why should they wish to believe we want democracy when clearly we dont? fascinating, complex, delicate and scary.....and i wish i'd studied more middle eastern history as i feel i've only got a few small parts of a much bigger puzzle :o
the writer is living in Alice's wonderland ;D
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of course i know that you know that all muslims arent extremists Albs - i'm just highlighting the black and white story we tend to be fed by our governments -not all muslims are bad, not all democratically elected western leaders are good- i was watching the excellent coverage on Aljazeera as well as Sky and BBC last night, now these people demonstrating in the streets arent radicals, they're not terrorists hell bent on global domination, they're ordinary office workers, teachers, taxi drivers, builders, students, parents, grandparents, they're just normal people like anyone else - normal people who are sick of a regime that lives like pharoahs while they struggle, sick of a regime that imprisons tens of thousands of their fellow citizens on a whim - governments cant operate through fear anymore - the world is too small - i only hope that the muslim brotherhood doesnt step in to fill the vacuum - that would be disastrous as cem says :(
I would agree with you on that. I know your atheist views but, if you could put them on hold for a moment, you should read the excellent Cranmer's views, which are not a million miles away from yours. Essentially, it is the Wahhabi strain of Islamists that we should fear, the Sunnis being more peaceable.
http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2011/01/egypt-and-islam-democracy-or.html
:y
Nickbat - i read that blog with interest, and it doesnt fill me with much hope if extremists gain control.....but what right does anyone other than Egyptians themselves have to decide? is or will Iran work behind the scenes to see the wahabbis or other fundamentalist muslims in power? and if so do we then have the right to influence the more liberal wings? and why should any egyptian (or any arab or muslim for that matter) believe us? we're the ones after all, that kept their hated president in power? why should they wish to believe we want democracy when clearly we dont? fascinating, complex, delicate and scary.....and i wish i'd studied more middle eastern history as i feel i've only got a few small parts of a much bigger puzzle :o
Indeed, BJ, it is fascinating and complex. It is tragically ironic that stability, albeit under the rule of a "tyrant" turns out, in the fullness of time, to be much better than what it is replaced by. Indeed, I believe that most Iranians, for example, would secretly much prefer to return to the days of the Shah, than what followed after the revolution. ;)
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of course i know that you know that all muslims arent extremists Albs - i'm just highlighting the black and white story we tend to be fed by our governments -not all muslims are bad, not all democratically elected western leaders are good- i was watching the excellent coverage on Aljazeera as well as Sky and BBC last night, now these people demonstrating in the streets arent radicals, they're not terrorists hell bent on global domination, they're ordinary office workers, teachers, taxi drivers, builders, students, parents, grandparents, they're just normal people like anyone else - normal people who are sick of a regime that lives like pharoahs while they struggle, sick of a regime that imprisons tens of thousands of their fellow citizens on a whim - governments cant operate through fear anymore - the world is too small - i only hope that the muslim brotherhood doesnt step in to fill the vacuum - that would be disastrous as cem says :(
I would agree with you on that. I know your atheist views but, if you could put them on hold for a moment, you should read the excellent Cranmer's views, which are not a million miles away from yours. Essentially, it is the Wahhabi strain of Islamists that we should fear, the Sunnis being more peaceable.
http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2011/01/egypt-and-islam-democracy-or.html
:y
Nickbat - i read that blog with interest, and it doesnt fill me with much hope if extremists gain control.....but what right does anyone other than Egyptians themselves have to decide? is or will Iran work behind the scenes to see the wahabbis or other fundamentalist muslims in power? and if so do we then have the right to influence the more liberal wings? and why should any egyptian (or any arab or muslim for that matter) believe us? we're the ones after all, that kept their hated president in power? why should they wish to believe we want democracy when clearly we dont? fascinating, complex, delicate and scary.....and i wish i'd studied more middle eastern history as i feel i've only got a few small parts of a much bigger puzzle :o
Indeed, BJ, it is fascinating and complex. It is tragically ironic that stability, albeit under the rule of a "tyrant" turns out, in the fullness of time, to be much better than what it is replaced by. Indeed, I believe that most Iranians, for example, would secretly much prefer to return to the days of the Shah, than what followed after the revolution. ;)
show the death and convince for malaria ;D
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Indeed, BJ, it is fascinating and complex. It is tragically ironic that stability, albeit under the rule of a "tyrant" turns out, in the fullness of time, to be much better than what it is replaced by. Indeed, I believe that most Iranians, for example, would secretly much prefer to return to the days of the Shah, than what followed after the revolution. ;)
show the death and convince for malaria ;D
I personally know several Iranians, Cem. How many do you know? ::)
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of course i know that you know that all muslims arent extremists Albs - i'm just highlighting the black and white story we tend to be fed by our governments -not all muslims are bad, not all democratically elected western leaders are good- i was watching the excellent coverage on Aljazeera as well as Sky and BBC last night, now these people demonstrating in the streets arent radicals, they're not terrorists hell bent on global domination, they're ordinary office workers, teachers, taxi drivers, builders, students, parents, grandparents, they're just normal people like anyone else - normal people who are sick of a regime that lives like pharoahs while they struggle, sick of a regime that imprisons tens of thousands of their fellow citizens on a whim - governments cant operate through fear anymore - the world is too small - i only hope that the muslim brotherhood doesnt step in to fill the vacuum - that would be disastrous as cem says :(
I would agree with you on that. I know your atheist views but, if you could put them on hold for a moment, you should read the excellent Cranmer's views, which are not a million miles away from yours. Essentially, it is the Wahhabi strain of Islamists that we should fear, the Sunnis being more peaceable.
http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2011/01/egypt-and-islam-democracy-or.html
:y
Nickbat - i read that blog with interest, and it doesnt fill me with much hope if extremists gain control.....but what right does anyone other than Egyptians themselves have to decide? is or will Iran work behind the scenes to see the wahabbis or other fundamentalist muslims in power? and if so do we then have the right to influence the more liberal wings? and why should any egyptian (or any arab or muslim for that matter) believe us? we're the ones after all, that kept their hated president in power? why should they wish to believe we want democracy when clearly we dont? fascinating, complex, delicate and scary.....and i wish i'd studied more middle eastern history as i feel i've only got a few small parts of a much bigger puzzle :o
the writer is living in Alice's wonderland ;D
sadly, your cynicism is probably accurate and well placed Cem :(
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Indeed, BJ, it is fascinating and complex. It is tragically ironic that stability, albeit under the rule of a "tyrant" turns out, in the fullness of time, to be much better than what it is replaced by. Indeed, I believe that most Iranians, for example, would secretly much prefer to return to the days of the Shah, than what followed after the revolution. ;)
show the death and convince for malaria ;D
I personally know several Iranians, Cem. How many do you know? ::)
many !! , I was with them at the university (engineering) .. One was a math teacher who worked in Japan, and was a great man ( I learned many things from him, first how to learn) but his destiny never changed.. :(
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Indeed, BJ, it is fascinating and complex. It is tragically ironic that stability, albeit under the rule of a "tyrant" turns out, in the fullness of time, to be much better than what it is replaced by. Indeed, I believe that most Iranians, for example, would secretly much prefer to return to the days of the Shah, than what followed after the revolution. ;)
show the death and convince for malaria ;D
I personally know several Iranians, Cem. How many do you know? ::)
many !! , I was with them at the university (engineering) .. One was a math teacher who worked in Japan, and was a great man ( I learned many things from him, first how to learn) but his destiny never changed.. :(
Might he have worked in Iran had it not been for the revolution? ;)
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Indeed, BJ, it is fascinating and complex. It is tragically ironic that stability, albeit under the rule of a "tyrant" turns out, in the fullness of time, to be much better than what it is replaced by. Indeed, I believe that most Iranians, for example, would secretly much prefer to return to the days of the Shah, than what followed after the revolution. ;)
show the death and convince for malaria ;D
I personally know several Iranians, Cem. How many do you know? ::)
many !! , I was with them at the university (engineering) .. One was a math teacher who worked in Japan, and was a great man ( I learned many things from him, first how to learn) but his destiny never changed.. :(
Might he have worked in Iran had it not been for the revolution? ;)
nope.. first time had problems with shah management.. so gone to japan.. and was talking that language.. then the next.. was giving private lessons to pay the bills (was with the family in my country) and going school..
ps: time for bed and milk ;D good night everyone.. :y
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Interesting... :o :o
The American government secretly backed leading figures behind the Egyptian uprising who have been planning “regime change” for the past three years, The Daily Telegraph has learned.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/8289686/Egypt-protests-Americas-secret-backing-for-rebel-leaders-behind-uprising.html
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We were planning another holiday to Tunisia but have changed our mind now... Probably holiday in the UK again this year now, although Italy may be a possibility
Well you can always visit my country if you want.
Cheaper than Italy and far safer than Egipt and Tunisia
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/30/al-jazeera-in-cairo-being_n_815912.html
"If we shut down this media outlet, the whole revolution will go away!" *sticks fingers in ears and head in sand*
We were planning another holiday to Tunisia but have changed our mind now... Probably holiday in the UK again this year now, although Italy may be a possibility
Well you can always visit my country if you want.
Cheaper than Italy and far safer than Egipt and Tunisia
And Split is a beautiful place, from what I remember :y
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Thanks aaronjb but there are far beautiful places here like Dubrovnik, Trogir, Plitvice lakes, Brijuni islands etc. Split is nice but is still mainly just a transit city
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As I read from the newspapers all tourists trying to leave Egypt but interestingly Russian tourists refuse to leave ;D I hope they wont come nose to nose with an extremist rebel !! if this happens be prepared to change your religion quickly ;D ;D
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but interestingly Russian tourists refuse to leave
Hmmmm probably there is still enough vodka in shops and hotels so they are staying
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There have been a lot of great observations by you all on the effects of religion on this, and other situations, which I dare not add to even if I could.
What I can add though is never forget about the importance of "brotherhood" in both secular and deeply religious societies. That typical 'mans' habit of grouping or bonding together in a common shared sense of belonging. It has driven conflict for centuries, and I see no evidence of it changing any time soon.
When this happens blood brotherhood seems to overtake religion. Exceptions are of course scattered throughout history, with say the Christian Crusades and Elizabethan stand against Philip of Spain, in particular during the 1580s, culminating in the Spanish Armada of 1588, coming to mind.
But when Britain declared war on Germany in the August of 1914 their was open jubilation on the streets, with a chance to fight the growing threat to the Empire of the Hun. No talk of religion as both were Chritian countries, and all rememberance of the Prussian army saving Wellington's bacon at Waterloo was forgotten. I fear to say that even now many men would come together over any talk of fighting the French again (heaven forbid!!). On that point even the welling patrisism, nationalism, and desire for world power for a new Empire took the Royal Navy fleet into battle against the French and Spanish fleet at Trafalgar on the 21st October 1805. Once again no talk of religion. Chartism caused great groups of multi-religious and secular groups to come together during 1838-48, for the "Common Good".
The Nazis invasion of Russia on that infamous day of 22nd June 1941 was all about world domination and ridding Germany of the communist threat yes, but probably more about the hatred felt by the 3.6 million Germans involved towards the Russians.
What am I really saying? Well I believe, and it is purely my viewpoint, is that mans natural desire to group for battle, for a cause, is far stronger than the one of grouping over religion or politics. Men in these groups think of honour first, the upholding of the cause, fighting the battle together, then perhaps later justify it with politics and religion.
The Middle East situation is very complex, but as usual what comes first in any talk of battle is fighting the Jew, or Palestinian, or Western power, then actually about the religion that may be behind those groups. The lack of trust, as existed between Great Britain and Germany before the Great War, is really the spark that ignites conflict, with religion secondary.
In Egypt this will result in first the fight, now well advanced, to remove the regieme untrusted by most Egyptians. The dust will then settle, and as in Iran after the Shah was deposed, the momentum to fill the vacuum is taken up by the secular or religious factions, whoever they will be. They may well cause a secondary battle for political power, where the religious element becomes important. But that does not mean that really the aims of any group is one of gaining power, nothing to do with religion, which in fact has been a smokescreen, an excuse, as in fact it always was in all past historical conflicts.
That grouping of men in the common cause who have caused battle to ensue, and lives to be lost, need an excuse to justify their actions. "In the name of God or Allah" becomes then the common cry!
History rolls on, and mans inhumanity to man continues, often finally in the name of religion, which is actually the biggest crime of all! So as we watch Egypt, and the other nations in those parts playing their power games, remember it really is about mans power over other men, not about the God most of us worship!
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interesting theory Liz - genuinely this Egyptian conflict has nothing to do with religion, more to do with a man hanging on to power through intimidation and fear blessed by the west as they in turn justified their support by bleating about how he keeps the muslim extremists out of power. So we in the west hide behind religion (even tho to most of us its of no significance in our lives). I think British, American and other governments of the west should be utterly ashamed - how dare we speak of democracy for all and yet prop up these dictators. I dont think now, having absorbed a lot of interviews and footage that ordinary Egyptians want Mubarak's evil empire to be replaced by a bunch of medieval nutjobs in funny hats (what is it with the hats, you people?) any more than we would :y
Mubarak has to leave and leave quickly, someone trusted comes in to hold the country together for a few weeks until an election can be called, then Egypt can vote for who they like - as the worlds most advanced and ancient civilisation, i trust they'll make a wise decision :y
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interesting theory Liz - genuinely this Egyptian conflict has nothing to do with religion, more to do with a man hanging on to power through intimidation and fear blessed by the west as they in turn justified their support by bleating about how he keeps the muslim extremists out of power. So we in the west hide behind religion (even tho to most of us its of no significance in our lives). I think British, American and other governments of the west should be utterly ashamed - how dare we speak of democracy for all and yet prop up these dictators. I dont think now, having absorbed a lot of interviews and footage that ordinary Egyptians want Mubarak's evil empire to be replaced by a bunch of medieval nutjobs in funny hats (what is it with the hats, you people?) any more than we would :y
Mubarak has to leave and leave quickly, someone trusted comes in to hold the country together for a few weeks until an election can be called, then Egypt can vote for who they like - as the worlds most advanced and ancient civilisation, i trust they'll make a wise decision :y
Watch out for the Fez! :D
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//...
...//History rolls on, and mans inhumanity to man continues, often finally in the name of religion, which is actually the biggest crime of all! So as we watch Egypt, and the other nations in those parts playing their power games, remember it really is about mans power over other men, not about the God most of us worship!
**Edited merely for the server's sake**
I thought that a fine analysis Lizzie 8-) and for the most part I'm only too pleased to agree with it. :y
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//...
...//History rolls on, and mans inhumanity to man continues, often finally in the name of religion, which is actually the biggest crime of all! So as we watch Egypt, and the other nations in those parts playing their power games, remember it really is about mans power over other men, not about the God most of us worship!
**Edited merely for the server's sake**
I thought that a fine analysis Lizzie 8-) and for the most part I'm only too pleased to agree with it. :y
Cheers ZL! :y :y
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interesting theory Liz - genuinely this Egyptian conflict has nothing to do with religion, more to do with a man hanging on to power through intimidation and fear blessed by the west as they in turn justified their support by bleating about how he keeps the muslim extremists out of power. So we in the west hide behind religion (even tho to most of us its of no significance in our lives). I think British, American and other governments of the west should be utterly ashamed - how dare we speak of democracy for all and yet prop up these dictators. I dont think now, having absorbed a lot of interviews and footage that ordinary Egyptians want Mubarak's evil empire to be replaced by a bunch of medieval nutjobs in funny hats (what is it with the hats, you people?) any more than we would :y
Mubarak has to leave and leave quickly, someone trusted comes in to hold the country together for a few weeks until an election can be called, then Egypt can vote for who they like - as the worlds most advanced and ancient civilisation, i trust they'll make a wise decision :y
Watch out for the Fez! :D
"Fezzes are cool" The Doctor in "Doctor Who" :y
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The funniest man I have ever seen wore a fez; Tommy Cooper! 8-) 8-) 8-) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
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There have been a lot of great observations by you all on the effects of religion on this, and other situations, which I dare not add to even if I could.
What I can add though is never forget about the importance of "brotherhood" in both secular and deeply religious societies. That typical 'mans' habit of grouping or bonding together in a common shared sense of belonging. It has driven conflict for centuries, and I see no evidence of it changing any time soon.
When this happens blood brotherhood seems to overtake religion. Exceptions are of course scattered throughout history, with say the Christian Crusades and Elizabethan stand against Philip of Spain, in particular during the 1580s, culminating in the Spanish Armada of 1588, coming to mind.
But when Britain declared war on Germany in the August of 1914 their was open jubilation on the streets, with a chance to fight the growing threat to the Empire of the Hun. No talk of religion as both were Chritian countries, and all rememberance of the Prussian army saving Wellington's bacon at Waterloo was forgotten. I fear to say that even now many men would come together over any talk of fighting the French again (heaven forbid!!). On that point even the welling patrisism, nationalism, and desire for world power for a new Empire took the Royal Navy fleet into battle against the French and Spanish fleet at Trafalgar on the 21st October 1805. Once again no talk of religion. Chartism caused great groups of multi-religious and secular groups to come together during 1838-48, for the "Common Good".
The Nazis invasion of Russia on that infamous day of 22nd June 1941 was all about world domination and ridding Germany of the communist threat yes, but probably more about the hatred felt by the 3.6 million Germans involved towards the Russians.
What am I really saying? Well I believe, and it is purely my viewpoint, is that mans natural desire to group for battle, for a cause, is far stronger than the one of grouping over religion or politics. Men in these groups think of honour first, the upholding of the cause, fighting the battle together, then perhaps later justify it with politics and religion.
The Middle East situation is very complex, but as usual what comes first in any talk of battle is fighting the Jew, or Palestinian, or Western power, then actually about the religion that may be behind those groups. The lack of trust, as existed between Great Britain and Germany before the Great War, is really the spark that ignites conflict, with religion secondary.
In Egypt this will result in first the fight, now well advanced, to remove the regieme untrusted by most Egyptians. The dust will then settle, and as in Iran after the Shah was deposed, the momentum to fill the vacuum is taken up by the secular or religious factions, whoever they will be. They may well cause a secondary battle for political power, where the religious element becomes important. But that does not mean that really the aims of any group is one of gaining power, nothing to do with religion, which in fact has been a smokescreen, an excuse, as in fact it always was in all past historical conflicts.
That grouping of men in the common cause who have caused battle to ensue, and lives to be lost, need an excuse to justify their actions. "In the name of God or Allah" becomes then the common cry!
History rolls on, and mans inhumanity to man continues, often finally in the name of religion, which is actually the biggest crime of all! So as we watch Egypt, and the other nations in those parts playing their power games, remember it really is about mans power over other men, not about the God most of us worship!
good summary of truth Lizzie.. whatever the name of the game is, religion definitely will be used as a leverage and in a country where masses are poor , sooner or later logic will be out of the game and it will turn to a blood river.. I'm afraid this river wont stop at their borders.. And more than that, I dont think this area will be stabilized in the short term and will start to export all kinds of terorism.. >:(
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There have been a lot of great observations by you all on the effects of religion on this, and other situations, which I dare not add to even if I could.
good summary of truth Lizzie.. whatever the name of the game is, religion definitely will be used as a leverage and in a country where masses are poor , sooner or later logic will be out of the game and it will turn to a blood river.. I'm afraid this river wont stop at their borders.. And more than that, I dont think this area will be stabilized in the short term and will start to export all kinds of terorism.. >:(
this may seem like a stupid question, so apologies if it is, but the impression i get (from afar and admittedly filtered through the telly news) is that muslim extremists are generally about as welcome to Egyptians as a fart in a spacesuit? or are they just clever at disguising their popular support? :o
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There have been a lot of great observations by you all on the effects of religion on this, and other situations, which I dare not add to even if I could.
good summary of truth Lizzie.. whatever the name of the game is, religion definitely will be used as a leverage and in a country where masses are poor , sooner or later logic will be out of the game and it will turn to a blood river.. I'm afraid this river wont stop at their borders.. And more than that, I dont think this area will be stabilized in the short term and will start to export all kinds of terorism.. >:(
this may seem like a stupid question, so apologies if it is, but the impression i get (from afar and admittedly filtered through the telly news) is that muslim extremists are generally about as welcome to Egyptians as a fart in a spacesuit? or are they just clever at disguising their popular support? :o
You may not be far off where Egypt is concerned BJ - The Muslim Brotherhood (to name but one, and if indeed they can be labelled as extremists) doesn't seem to have much popular support there.
At the moment the general movement for change - as being driven by the person in the street - seems to be centred on getting the Mubarak regime out, what follows in terms of a conventional political structure to take over the administration of the country is a question that presently seems to be rather more difficult to answer.
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see the king of Jordan has blinked :y
allegedly sacking his government - presumably to head off another popular uprising, unfortunately the military there i think are fairly solidly behind the king :o
the tyrants are running scared tho.
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There have been a lot of great observations by you all on the effects of religion on this, and other situations, which I dare not add to even if I could.
good summary of truth Lizzie.. whatever the name of the game is, religion definitely will be used as a leverage and in a country where masses are poor , sooner or later logic will be out of the game and it will turn to a blood river.. I'm afraid this river wont stop at their borders.. And more than that, I dont think this area will be stabilized in the short term and will start to export all kinds of terorism.. >:(
this may seem like a stupid question, so apologies if it is, but the impression i get (from afar and admittedly filtered through the telly news) is that muslim extremists are generally about as welcome to Egyptians as a fart in a spacesuit? or are they just clever at disguising their popular support? :o
You may not be far off where Egypt is concerned BJ - The Muslim Brotherhood (to name but one, and if indeed they can be labelled as extremists) doesn't seem to have much popular support there.
At the moment the general movement for change - as being driven by the person in the street - seems to be centred on getting the Mubarak regime out, what follows in terms of a conventional political structure to take over the administration of the country is a question that presently seems to be rather more difficult to answer.
I'm afraid, for me, its not.. any revolution which does not have an industrial culture behind, sooner or later will follow the usual river bed (you know what I mean).. and there is no exception >:(
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There have been a lot of great observations by you all on the effects of religion on this, and other situations, which I dare not add to even if I could.
good summary of truth Lizzie.. whatever the name of the game is, religion definitely will be used as a leverage and in a country where masses are poor , sooner or later logic will be out of the game and it will turn to a blood river.. I'm afraid this river wont stop at their borders.. And more than that, I dont think this area will be stabilized in the short term and will start to export all kinds of terorism.. >:(
this may seem like a stupid question, so apologies if it is, but the impression i get (from afar and admittedly filtered through the telly news) is that muslim extremists are generally about as welcome to Egyptians as a fart in a spacesuit? or are they just clever at disguising their popular support? :o
You may not be far off where Egypt is concerned BJ - The Muslim Brotherhood (to name but one, and if indeed they can be labelled as extremists) doesn't seem to have much popular support there.
At the moment the general movement for change - as being driven by the person in the street - seems to be centred on getting the Mubarak regime out, what follows in terms of a conventional political structure to take over the administration of the country is a question that presently seems to be rather more difficult to answer.
I'm afraid, for me, its not.. any revolution which does not have an industrial culture behind, sooner or later will follow the usual river bed (you know what I mean).. and there is no exception >:(
now may be its time to tell you something unusual for you.. Have you heard of votes for sale :( >:(
easy.. if the community average is poor.. and you gave them the coal for winter, some food and some money (not that much money required) , you can get their votes easily.. and remember those families are crowded.. minimum 4-5 persons.. even there , the name of the system is democractic , would you believe that ? >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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Buying votes has always happened to some degree or other. It happened here on a grand scale in the last three elections (paying people equivalent to a wage to sit at home doing nothing, handing out passports to just about anyone etc). It didnt quite work in the last one though. ;)
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Buying votes has always happened to some degree or other. It happened here on a grand scale in the last three elections (paying people equivalent to a wage to sit at home doing nothing, handing out passports to just about anyone etc). It didnt quite work in the last one though. ;)
you may never know , how many and what effect it has.. :(
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It doesnt make a huge difference who gets in here imo. They are all determined to occupy the same small area on the left of centre. Otherwise the largely left leaning media and powerbrokers will slaughter them. ::)
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There have been a lot of great observations by you all on the effects of religion on this, and other situations, which I dare not add to even if I could.
good summary of truth Lizzie.. whatever the name of the game is, religion definitely will be used as a leverage and in a country where masses are poor , sooner or later logic will be out of the game and it will turn to a blood river.. I'm afraid this river wont stop at their borders.. And more than that, I dont think this area will be stabilized in the short term and will start to export all kinds of terorism.. >:(
this may seem like a stupid question, so apologies if it is, but the impression i get (from afar and admittedly filtered through the telly news) is that muslim extremists are generally about as welcome to Egyptians as a fart in a spacesuit? or are they just clever at disguising their popular support? :o
Actually a fart in a space suit would be more popular!
What happened when extremists bombed the Egyptian Christians - the proper Muslims joined them in their churches.
Shared nationality is stronger than religion there.
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It doesnt make a huge difference who gets in here imo. They are all determined to occupy the same small area on the left of centre. Otherwise the largely left leaning media and powerbrokers will slaughter them. ::)
we do live in a left leaning society - thats true. the media reflects this...........actually perhaps just the Daily Mirror - (which no one reads) all other media sits on the right or like the BBC, ITV and 2 national papers sits in the middle. Some of our more swivel-eyed brethren would have it that the Beeb is part of a huge left-wing conspiracy (see peak oil, climate change, immigration, ad infinitum, ad nauseum).
Sadly for this small band of bewildered and deluded souls the BBC is actually a symbol of truth across the planet - all the more reason to damn the government cuts to the highly valued and respected World Service. If these last few days and weeks teach us anything its that we as a planet are all in this together - its a global community and most of us want the same things - freedom from tyranny, freedom from religious doctrine, peace and large flatscreen TV's :y
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I'm afraid, for me, its not.. any revolution which does not have an industrial culture behind, sooner or later will follow the usual river bed (you know what I mean).. and there is no exception >:(
Yes I think that's a fair point cem. My concern at the moment is that when the populist fervour subsides (and in the event that Mubarak does depart) is there the maturity and quality of political leadership available in Egypt to promote that culture? (Providing that opposition parties and others have recognised the necessity of this in the first place)
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now may be its time to tell you something unusual for you.. Have you heard of votes for sale :( >:(
easy.. if the community average is poor.. and you gave them the coal for winter, some food and some money (not that much money required) , you can get their votes easily.. and remember those families are crowded.. minimum 4-5 persons.. even there , the name of the system is democractic , would you believe that ? >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
This is how many groups will attempt to broker power in the 'new' Egypt, it's easy to sell ideas and hope to people who have little - providing the price to be paid seems reasonable.
However, inevitably, the true cost those 'bargain' goods will only become apparent in the long run.
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Sadly for this small band of bewildered and deluded souls the BBC is actually a symbol of truth across the planet - all the more reason to damn the government cuts to the highly valued and respected World Service. If these last few days and weeks teach us anything its that we as a planet are all in this together - its a global community and most of us want the same things - freedom from tyranny, freedom from religious doctrine, peace and large flatscreen TV's :y
Of course truth can be a very capricious and ethereal beast BJ as many in the real establishment here also think the World Service is a splendid vehicle for getting particular messages across to relevant groups and individuals within the targeted listening area.
The days of the independent BBC are over (if they really existed) and the Corporation is, in my view, merely the whore of whatever government is in power.
Being dependant on the licence fee for everything from infrastructure, programming, salaries and pensions (with the odd knighthood or peerage thrown in) is it unreasonable to suggest that the Beeb will always follow the furrow ploughed by the political party in government?
I do also agree that many of us want peace and the other things you mentioned but is that a 'peace at any price'?
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There have been a lot of great observations by you all on the effects of religion on this, and other situations, which I dare not add to even if I could.
What I can add though is never forget about the importance of "brotherhood" in both secular and deeply religious societies. That typical 'mans' habit of grouping or bonding together in a common shared sense of belonging. It has driven conflict for centuries, and I see no evidence of it changing any time soon.
When this happens blood brotherhood seems to overtake religion. Exceptions are of course scattered throughout history, with say the Christian Crusades and Elizabethan stand against Philip of Spain, in particular during the 1580s, culminating in the Spanish Armada of 1588, coming to mind.
But when Britain declared war on Germany in the August of 1914 their was open jubilation on the streets, with a chance to fight the growing threat to the Empire of the Hun. No talk of religion as both were Chritian countries, and all rememberance of the Prussian army saving Wellington's bacon at Waterloo was forgotten. I fear to say that even now many men would come together over any talk of fighting the French again (heaven forbid!!). On that point even the welling patrisism, nationalism, and desire for world power for a new Empire took the Royal Navy fleet into battle against the French and Spanish fleet at Trafalgar on the 21st October 1805. Once again no talk of religion. Chartism caused great groups of multi-religious and secular groups to come together during 1838-48, for the "Common Good".
The Nazis invasion of Russia on that infamous day of 22nd June 1941 was all about world domination and ridding Germany of the communist threat yes, but probably more about the hatred felt by the 3.6 million Germans involved towards the Russians.
What am I really saying? Well I believe, and it is purely my viewpoint, is that mans natural desire to group for battle, for a cause, is far stronger than the one of grouping over religion or politics. Men in these groups think of honour first, the upholding of the cause, fighting the battle together, then perhaps later justify it with politics and religion.
The Middle East situation is very complex, but as usual what comes first in any talk of battle is fighting the Jew, or Palestinian, or Western power, then actually about the religion that may be behind those groups. The lack of trust, as existed between Great Britain and Germany before the Great War, is really the spark that ignites conflict, with religion secondary.
In Egypt this will result in first the fight, now well advanced, to remove the regieme untrusted by most Egyptians. The dust will then settle, and as in Iran after the Shah was deposed, the momentum to fill the vacuum is taken up by the secular or religious factions, whoever they will be. They may well cause a secondary battle for political power, where the religious element becomes important. But that does not mean that really the aims of any group is one of gaining power, nothing to do with religion, which in fact has been a smokescreen, an excuse, as in fact it always was in all past historical conflicts.
That grouping of men in the common cause who have caused battle to ensue, and lives to be lost, need an excuse to justify their actions. "In the name of God or Allah" becomes then the common cry!
History rolls on, and mans inhumanity to man continues, often finally in the name of religion, which is actually the biggest crime of all! So as we watch Egypt, and the other nations in those parts playing their power games, remember it really is about mans power over other men, not about the God most of us worship!
good summary of truth Lizzie.. whatever the name of the game is, religion definitely will be used as a leverage and in a country where masses are poor , sooner or later logic will be out of the game and it will turn to a blood river.. I'm afraid this river wont stop at their borders.. And more than that, I dont think this area will be stabilized in the short term and will start to export all kinds of terorism.. >:(
Thanks Cem! :y :y
I think the stabilization of the whole region, not just Egypt, all very much depends on how the western powers act. Any action against the will of the Egyptians, or the Arab nations as a whole, will not only be very stupid, but highly dangerous. With Islamic feelings as they are over western involvement in Afghanistan any attempt to manipulate the outcome (as the west has done so many times in the past) will be absolutely disastrous and the "stabilization" you talk of Cem will unfortunately just run away as sand runs away in the desert!
Let us all pray to our God that common sense will prevail, peace is established, and the evils of power greed are kept chained.
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Sadly for this small band of bewildered and deluded souls the BBC is actually a symbol of truth across the planet - all the more reason to damn the government cuts to the highly valued and respected World Service. If these last few days and weeks teach us anything its that we as a planet are all in this together - its a global community and most of us want the same things - freedom from tyranny, freedom from religious doctrine, peace and large flatscreen TV's :y
Of course truth can be a very capricious and ethereal beast BJ as many in the real establishment here also think the World Service is a splendid vehicle for getting particular messages across to relevant groups and individuals within the targeted listening area.
The days of the independent BBC are over (if they really existed) and the Corporation is, in my view, merely the whore of whatever government is in power.
Being dependant on the licence fee for everything from infrastructure, programming, salaries and pensions (with the odd knighthood or peerage thrown in) is it unreasonable to suggest that the Beeb will always follow the furrow ploughed by the political party in government?
I do also agree that many of us want peace and the other things you mentioned but is that a 'peace at any price'?
I do usually support the BBC, but I believe you are very right in your statement ZL. In fact I would go further and say that the BBC were never completely independent and from its early days the Director Generals ensured it was very much a mouthpiece of the establishment and the middle to upper classes.
The 1939-45 war years broadcasts very much reinforced that position as the mouthpiece of the Coalition war time Government that correctly uttered great war winning propaganda and maintained the spirit of the British people.
Labour Governments in post war years may well have weakened that grip, but it took a lot for Auntie Beeb to become more up to date after the 1960s 'popular cultural , revolution'. It has certainly become more left wing in my lifetime!
However, the BBC has become a questioner of government policy as much as a supporter of it. To me they have on balance become to a far greater degree neautral. Before you argue that point, remember the BBC did used to be referred to as "Auntie Beeb" because it was for the good of the nation, the decider of what was right and wrong, or "proper", reinforced by their special right to broadcast "Public Announcements" ie what the government wanted you to believe, without question. That special status expired, in my opinion, in the 1970s when the BBC encouraged by way of material broadcast to question the people's security in the event of a nuclear attack.
In all, with all its faults, I still love and respect the BBC, as much of the world does when compared to their "State Broadcasters". ;)
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I don't think theres one government of the last 40 years that hasnt had fallouts with the beeb - if they were a government mouthpiece they haven't quite got the hang of it.
So I cant agree with you Zulu on dear old auntie....
I reckon if half the folk think it toes the Tory party line and the other half think its lefty, then its probably getting it about right :y
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I don't think theres one government of the last 40 years that hasnt had fallouts with the beeb - if they were a government mouthpiece they haven't quite got the hang of it.
So I cant agree with you Zulu on dear old auntie....
I reckon if half the folk think it toes the Tory party line and the other half think its lefty, then its probably getting it about right :y
So I cant agree with you Zulu on dear old auntie
Don't worry about it BJ, the Beeb isn't dead to me - I still watch a lot of BBC4 and listen Radio 3 every day and I fancy the pants off Stephanie Flanders. :-* :-* :y
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I don't think theres one government of the last 40 years that hasnt had fallouts with the beeb - if they were a government mouthpiece they haven't quite got the hang of it.
So I cant agree with you Zulu on dear old auntie....
I reckon if half the folk think it toes the Tory party line and the other half think its lefty, then its probably getting it about right :y
So I cant agree with you Zulu on dear old auntie
Don't worry about it BJ, the Beeb isn't dead to me - I still watch a lot of BBC4 and listen Radio 3 every day and I fancy the pants off Ned Flanders. :-* :-* :y
:o :o :o
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I don't think theres one government of the last 40 years that hasnt had fallouts with the beeb - if they were a government mouthpiece they haven't quite got the hang of it.
So I cant agree with you Zulu on dear old auntie....
I reckon if half the folk think it toes the Tory party line and the other half think its lefty, then its probably getting it about right :y
So I cant agree with you Zulu on dear old auntie
Don't worry about it BJ, the Beeb isn't dead to me - I still watch a lot of BBC4 and listen Radio 3 every day and I fancy the pants off Ned Flanders. :-* :-* :y
:o :o :o
;D ;D Any port in a storm. ;D ;D :y
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Returning to the original question - Where Next?
I believe it will be Basingstoke! :D
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Returning to the original question - Where Next?
I believe it will be Basingstoke! :D
if Basingtoke got torn apart in a violent civil war leaving nothing but rubble and smoking ruins...............how would you tell? :y
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Returning to the original question - Where Next?
I believe it will be Basingstoke! :D
if Basingtoke got torn apart in a violent civil war leaving nothing but rubble and smoking ruins...............how would you tell? :y
The sun would never rise again on this nation BJ. :( :(
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Returning to the original question - Where Next?
I believe it will be Basingstoke! :D
if Basingtoke got torn apart in a violent civil war leaving nothing but rubble and smoking ruins...............how would you tell? :y
You've been there then ;D
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Returning to the original question - Where Next?
I believe it will be Basingstoke! :D
Especially the Popular Estates eh?!
South Hams could then follow! The last time I saw them all, after visiting those estates far too many times over many years, they were 1960s planning disasters! ::) ::) ::)
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Returning to the original question - Where Next?
I believe it will be Basingstoke! :D
Especially the Popular Estates eh?!
South Hams could then follow! The last time I saw them all, after visiting those estates far too many times over many years, they were 1960s planning disasters! ::) ::) ::)
Why do you think I refer to it as Basingrad?
(& its Popley& South Ham BTW)
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Returning to the original question - Where Next?
I believe it will be Basingstoke! :D
Especially the Popular Estates eh?!
South Hams could then follow! The last time I saw them all, after visiting those estates far too many times over many years, they were 1960s planning disasters! ::) ::) ::)
Why do you think I refer to it as Basingrad?
(& its Poplar & South Ham BTW)
:y :y :y :y :ySo it was, Poplar 1, 2, 3 & 4, along with South Ham - you see I have tried to forget the nightmare for so long I had even tried to forget their names! ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D
"Basingrad" certainly is very descriptive 8-) 8-) 8-) :D ;)
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Then there's Buckskin, Winklebury, Eastrop. The 'private' estates like Chineham, Hatch Warren, Beggarwood, Kempshot, Rooksdown & Brighton Hill are equally depressing. How did Pete Seeger put it? - Little boxes on the hillside....
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Then there's Buckskin, Winklebury, Eastrop. The 'private' estates like Chineham, Hatch Warren, Beggarwood, Kempshot, Rooksdown & Brighton Hill are equally depressing. How did Pete Seeger put it? - Little boxes on the hillside....
That about sums them up, and I reckon little cardboard boxes would be of better quality!! ::) ::) :D :D ;)
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Then there's Buckskin, Winklebury, Eastrop. The 'private' estates like Chineham, Hatch Warren, Beggarwood, Kempshot, Rooksdown & Brighton Hill are equally depressing. How did Pete Seeger put it? - Little boxes on the hillside....
That about sums them up, and I reckon little cardboard boxes would be of better quality!! ::) ::) :D :D ;)
I suspect, so long as Rupert Murdoch's little life support system is bolted the to side of said boxes, and functional, nobody notices what's going on outside.. Until they take to the roads in their chavved Nova / Mundaneo with a duck-taped bumper, of course. ::)
Kevin
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its their country, their choice - the west sticking its oar never works.....maybe its time we learned that? :o
Mubarak has to leave and leave quickly, someone trusted comes in to hold the country together for a few weeks until an election can be called, then Egypt can vote for who they like - as the worlds most advanced and ancient civilisation, i trust they'll make a wise decision :y
I note that the pro-Mubarak and anti-government protesters are having a major bundle.
Does your first comment still stand, BJ? ;)
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its their country, their choice - the west sticking its oar never works.....maybe its time we learned that? :o
Mubarak has to leave and leave quickly, someone trusted comes in to hold the country together for a few weeks until an election can be called, then Egypt can vote for who they like - as the worlds most advanced and ancient civilisation, i trust they'll make a wise decision :y
I note that the pro-Mubarak and anti-government protesters are having a major bundle.
Does your first comment still stand, BJ? ;)
absolutely, the sooner he leaves and Egypt can install democracy the better, rent-a-mobs and plain clothes police causing trouble just show how increasingly ruthlesss and desperate Mubarak is to maintain his power. :(
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its their country, their choice - the west sticking its oar never works.....maybe its time we learned that? :o
Mubarak has to leave and leave quickly, someone trusted comes in to hold the country together for a few weeks until an election can be called, then Egypt can vote for who they like - as the worlds most advanced and ancient civilisation, i trust they'll make a wise decision :y
I note that the pro-Mubarak and anti-government protesters are having a major bundle.
Does your first comment still stand, BJ? ;)
absolutely, the sooner he leaves and Egypt can install democracy the better, rent-a-mobs and plain clothes police causing trouble just show how increasingly ruthlesss and desperate Mubarak is to maintain his power. :(
Ha! ha!
So your first comment that it's "their country, their choice" only holds true for you if Mubarak leaves.
On the one hand you say that a country should be free to decide it's own fate, yet, on the other, you feel the need to tell them what to do.
Just sayin'. ;) ::) ::) ::)
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its their country, their choice - the west sticking its oar never works.....maybe its time we learned that? :o
Mubarak has to leave and leave quickly, someone trusted comes in to hold the country together for a few weeks until an election can be called, then Egypt can vote for who they like - as the worlds most advanced and ancient civilisation, i trust they'll make a wise decision :y
I note that the pro-Mubarak and anti-government protesters are having a major bundle.
Does your first comment still stand, BJ? ;)
absolutely, the sooner he leaves and Egypt can install democracy the better, rent-a-mobs and plain clothes police causing trouble just show how increasingly ruthlesss and desperate Mubarak is to maintain his power. :(
Ha! ha!
So your first comment that it's "their country, their choice" only holds true for you if Mubarak leaves.
On the one hand you say that a country should be free to decide it's own fate, yet, on the other, you feel the need to tell them what to do.
Just sayin'. ;) ::) ::) ::)
most people in Egypt want Mubarak to leave - I don't see the point you're making :-?
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incredible, vivid eye-witness account from the ever excellent Robert Fisk in todays paper - well worth a read:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-blood-and-fear-in-cairos-streets-as-mubaraks-men-crack-down-on-protests-2202657.html
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incredible, vivid eye-witness account from the ever excellent Robert Fisk in todays paper - well worth a read:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-blood-and-fear-in-cairos-streets-as-mubaraks-men-crack-down-on-protests-2202657.html
Yes, a nicely written piece. :y
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incredible, vivid eye-witness account from the ever excellent Robert Fisk in todays paper - well worth a read:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-blood-and-fear-in-cairos-streets-as-mubaraks-men-crack-down-on-protests-2202657.html
Yes, a nicely written piece. :y
I agree! :y :y
However I am a bit concerned that our media are painting a picture of the Presidents "hired help" being the only ones who support him and are fighting the masses who do not.
I feel sure that Mubarak will have far more supporters than that as portrayed by our media, but certainly they seem to be in a minority. ;)
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its their country, their choice - the west sticking its oar never works.....maybe its time we learned that? :o
Mubarak has to leave and leave quickly, someone trusted comes in to hold the country together for a few weeks until an election can be called, then Egypt can vote for who they like - as the worlds most advanced and ancient civilisation, i trust they'll make a wise decision :y
I note that the pro-Mubarak and anti-government protesters are having a major bundle.
Does your first comment still stand, BJ? ;)
absolutely, the sooner he leaves and Egypt can install democracy the better, rent-a-mobs and plain clothes police causing trouble just show how increasingly ruthlesss and desperate Mubarak is to maintain his power. :(
Ha! ha!
So your first comment that it's "their country, their choice" only holds true for you if Mubarak leaves.
On the one hand you say that a country should be free to decide it's own fate, yet, on the other, you feel the need to tell them what to do.
Just sayin'. ;) ::) ::) ::)
most people in Egypt want Mubarak to leave - I don't see the point you're making :-?
The point I am making is that you are happy to have the people of Egypt make their own choice, but then, in the next breath, say what the outcome should be. I'm have no particular feelings about Mubarak, but I think your statement that "most people want him to leave" is mere conjecture - not based on any facts. I read a quote yesterday from an Egyptian who said that Mubarak brought stability and that's the one thing the country needs before it can tackle other issues. I suspect, as Lizzie has said, that Mubarak actually has quite substantial support.
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incredible, vivid eye-witness account from the ever excellent Robert Fisk in todays paper - well worth a read:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-blood-and-fear-in-cairos-streets-as-mubaraks-men-crack-down-on-protests-2202657.html
Yes, a nicely written piece. :y
I agree! :y :y
However I am a bit concerned that our media are painting a picture of the Presidents "hired help" being the only ones who support him and are fighting the masses who do not.
I feel sure that Mubarak will have far more supporters than that as portrayed by our media, but certainly they seem to be in a minority. ;)
Yes I think that's a fair comment Lizzie as - in most nations within that region - the truth (should there ever be such a commodity) is concealed behind many veils.
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its their country, their choice - the west sticking its oar never works.....maybe its time we learned that? :o
Mubarak has to leave and leave quickly, someone trusted comes in to hold the country together for a few weeks until an election can be called, then Egypt can vote for who they like - as the worlds most advanced and ancient civilisation, i trust they'll make a wise decision :y
I note that the pro-Mubarak and anti-government protesters are having a major bundle.
Does your first comment still stand, BJ? ;)
absolutely, the sooner he leaves and Egypt can install democracy the better, rent-a-mobs and plain clothes police causing trouble just show how increasingly ruthlesss and desperate Mubarak is to maintain his power. :(
Ha! ha!
So your first comment that it's "their country, their choice" only holds true for you if Mubarak leaves.
On the one hand you say that a country should be free to decide it's own fate, yet, on the other, you feel the need to tell them what to do.
Just sayin'. ;) ::) ::) ::)
most people in Egypt want Mubarak to leave - I don't see the point you're making :-?
The point I am making is that you are happy to have the people of Egypt make their own choice, but then, in the next breath, say what the outcome should be. I'm have no particular feelings about Mubarak, but I think your statement that "most people want him to leave" is mere conjecture - not based on any facts. I read a quote yesterday from an Egyptian who said that Mubarak brought stability and that's the one thing the country needs before it can tackle other issues. I suspect, as Lizzie has said, that Mubarak actually has quite substantial support.
wow - even the comical Fox News are reporting that Mubarak has enlisted "supporters" to do his bidding, as well as the loyal police force who have "disappeared" from the streets....to return as pro El Presidente "civilians". Mubarak may have some support but if you're seriously suggesting that he has a majority then I think thats well wide of the truth in all honesty Nickbat. :o
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as far as I see Egyptians have other interests other than Mubarek.. 1 Turkish newsman kidnapped (found by police later) , 3 Turkish newsman badly beaten >:(
as I said.. this the beginning only.. :(
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as far as I see Egyptians have other interests other than Mubarek.. 1 Turkish newsman kidnapped (found by police later) , 3 Turkish newsman badly beaten >:(
as I said.. this the beginning only.. :(
yep - it'll be a bloodbath sadly, I wonder what the other 20 or so dictators in the Arab world are thinking? Some of them are being smart enough to act quickly Yemen, Jordan (whether announcing you wont stand again or sacking your govt respectively is enough -who knows?)- but who survives and who falls in the Middle East is going to have massive implications - especially where pro-Israeli regimes are toppled :o
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as far as I see Egyptians have other interests other than Mubarek.. 1 Turkish newsman kidnapped (found by police later) , 3 Turkish newsman badly beaten >:(
as I said.. this the beginning only.. :(
Maybe a very silly question! But why are Turkish (fellow Muslim?) journalsts being picked on Cem? :-/ :-/
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as far as I see Egyptians have other interests other than Mubarek.. 1 Turkish newsman kidnapped (found by police later) , 3 Turkish newsman badly beaten >:(
as I said.. this the beginning only.. :(
Maybe a very silly question! But why are Turkish (fellow Muslim?) journalsts being picked on Cem? :-/ :-/
good question Lizzie.. but we are not accepted as real muslims between them (not all of them of course) as they believe we are with big brother :-/ nearly all Turkish families , workers leave Egypt..
edit: and there are more than 60 textile factories that Turkish bussinessman have there and I dont count the numerious shops there which are destroyed..
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as far as I see Egyptians have other interests other than Mubarek.. 1 Turkish newsman kidnapped (found by police later) , 3 Turkish newsman badly beaten >:(
as I said.. this the beginning only.. :(
Maybe a very silly question! But why are Turkish (fellow Muslim?) journalsts being picked on Cem? :-/ :-/
good question Lizzie.. but we are not accepted as real muslims between them (not all of them of course) as they believe we are with big brother :-/ nearly all Turkish families , workers leave Egypt..
edit: and there are more than 60 textile factories that Turkish bussinessman have there and I dont count the numerious shops there which are destroyed..
Thanks Cem :y :y :y That is very interesting. I wonder what would happen then if Turkey joins the white Christian brotherhood of Europe :o :o :o Would Turkey be completely shunned by other Islamic states? That would be very contary to what I would like to see, and what Europe seeks! ::) ::) ::)
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Just had good chat with my Egyptian neighbour. He believes Mubarak should leave office and also believes that Eqyptians will never allow the establishment of am Iran-like regime. I have a lot of time for this chap and I hope his wish comes true and that he is right about the replacement government.
Banjax, I was merely pointing out that Mubarak does have some support, especially amongst the older generations. I accept that there is probably a majority of Egyptians who want Mubarak out, but neither I nor you can say that as a fact, per se and that is what I was picking you up on. It is, of course, highly likely to be the case. :y
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Just had good chat with my Egyptian neighbour. He believes Mubarak should leave office and also believes that Eqyptians will never allow the establishment of am Iran-like regime. I have a lot of time for this chap and I hope his wish comes true and that he is right about the replacement government.
Banjax, I was merely pointing out that Mubarak does have some support, especially amongst the older generations. I accept that there is probably a majority of Egyptians who want Mubarak out, but neither I nor you can say that as a fact, per se and that is what I was picking you up on. It is, of course, highly likely to be the case. :y
fair point - he will have some support, i just cant believe that many people would wish to live under a dictator voluntarily - although of course there will be a section of society (police, upper echelons of business and politics, etc) for whom live was good under Mubarak - i do think he should listen to what the people of Egypt want tho and to prolong his regime will be disastrous :(
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as far as I see Egyptians have other interests other than Mubarek.. 1 Turkish newsman kidnapped (found by police later) , 3 Turkish newsman badly beaten >:(
as I said.. this the beginning only.. :(
Maybe a very silly question! But why are Turkish (fellow Muslim?) journalsts being picked on Cem? :-/ :-/
good question Lizzie.. but we are not accepted as real muslims between them (not all of them of course) as they believe we are with big brother :-/ nearly all Turkish families , workers leave Egypt..
edit: and there are more than 60 textile factories that Turkish bussinessman have there and I dont count the numerious shops there which are destroyed..
Thanks Cem :y :y :y That is very interesting. I wonder what would happen then if Turkey joins the white Christian brotherhood of Europe :o :o :o Would Turkey be completely shunned by other Islamic states? That would be very contary to what I would like to see, and what Europe seeks! ::) ::) ::)
so you admit its Christian brotherhood ;D ;D
this is what our govts claim from the beginning.. although I dont care is it or not, I'm sure the leading party cares too much about it..
and to answer your question, honestly, look in history, those islamic countries once were on Ottoman lands, and they never like us anyway.. ;D but they dont like anything other than money ;D :D
and what europe seeks: I'm sure they dont want to see us between them.. neither this century nor the next one ;D :D
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as far as I see Egyptians have other interests other than Mubarek.. 1 Turkish newsman kidnapped (found by police later) , 3 Turkish newsman badly beaten >:(
as I said.. this the beginning only.. :(
Maybe a very silly question! But why are Turkish (fellow Muslim?) journalsts being picked on Cem? :-/ :-/
good question Lizzie.. but we are not accepted as real muslims between them (not all of them of course) as they believe we are with big brother :-/ nearly all Turkish families , workers leave Egypt..
edit: and there are more than 60 textile factories that Turkish bussinessman have there and I dont count the numerious shops there which are destroyed..
Thanks Cem :y :y :y That is very interesting. I wonder what would happen then if Turkey joins the white Christian brotherhood of Europe :o :o :o Would Turkey be completely shunned by other Islamic states? That would be very contary to what I would like to see, and what Europe seeks! ::) ::) ::)
so you admit its Christian brotherhood ;D ;D
this is what our govts claim from the beginning.. although I dont care is it or not, I'm sure the leading party cares too much about it..
and to answer your question, honestly, look in history, those islamic countries once were on Ottoman lands, and they never like us anyway.. ;D but they dont like anything other than money ;D :D
and what europe seeks: I'm sure they dont want to see us between them.. neither this century nor the next one ;D :D
Oh yes Cem, that fact cannot be denied :y :y
But that is why I would really welcome Turkey joining as it would break down that situation which has existed for near 1,000 years. That is one reason why England and France in particular became involved in the Crusades when the "evil" Saracens took control of Jerusalem, "poor helpless Christian Jerusalem!!"
That is what we need to change so it is a brotherhood of Europe encompassing all religions 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
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as far as I see Egyptians have other interests other than Mubarek.. 1 Turkish newsman kidnapped (found by police later) , 3 Turkish newsman badly beaten >:(
as I said.. this the beginning only.. :(
Maybe a very silly question! But why are Turkish (fellow Muslim?) journalsts being picked on Cem? :-/ :-/
good question Lizzie.. but we are not accepted as real muslims between them (not all of them of course) as they believe we are with big brother :-/ nearly all Turkish families , workers leave Egypt..
edit: and there are more than 60 textile factories that Turkish bussinessman have there and I dont count the numerious shops there which are destroyed..
Thanks Cem :y :y :y That is very interesting. I wonder what would happen then if Turkey joins the white Christian brotherhood of Europe :o :o :o Would Turkey be completely shunned by other Islamic states? That would be very contary to what I would like to see, and what Europe seeks! ::) ::) ::)
so you admit its Christian brotherhood ;D ;D
this is what our govts claim from the beginning.. although I dont care is it or not, I'm sure the leading party cares too much about it..
and to answer your question, honestly, look in history, those islamic countries once were on Ottoman lands, and they never like us anyway.. ;D but they dont like anything other than money ;D :D
and what europe seeks: I'm sure they dont want to see us between them.. neither this century nor the next one ;D :D
Oh yes Cem, that fact cannot be denied :y :y
But that is why I would really welcome Turkey joining as it would break down that situation which has existed for near 1,000 years. That is one reason why England and France in particular became involved in the Crusades when the "evil" Saracens took control of Jerusalem, "poor helpless Christian Jerusalem!!"
That is what we need to change so it is a brotherhood of Europe encompassing all religions 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
Nice to hear those words from you Lizzie :y
here , there are some factors about the situation that must be noted.. Turkey is a big country and have a high population (80 million nearly) .. and our population increase rate is nearly the double of avg european country..if we are added to EU, the power equations and EU parliament will change .. and many other things..neither the european heads and nor some Turkish heads(including me) are not ready for that imo..apart from the burocratic problems and any other things , we have a bigger problem here that we have to solve between us(my citizens)..(I wont go in details for the time being but you can guess)
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as far as I see Egyptians have other interests other than Mubarek.. 1 Turkish newsman kidnapped (found by police later) , 3 Turkish newsman badly beaten >:(
as I said.. this the beginning only.. :(
Maybe a very silly question! But why are Turkish (fellow Muslim?) journalsts being picked on Cem? :-/ :-/
good question Lizzie.. but we are not accepted as real muslims between them (not all of them of course) as they believe we are with big brother :-/ nearly all Turkish families , workers leave Egypt..
edit: and there are more than 60 textile factories that Turkish bussinessman have there and I dont count the numerious shops there which are destroyed..
Thanks Cem :y :y :y That is very interesting. I wonder what would happen then if Turkey joins the white Christian brotherhood of Europe :o :o :o Would Turkey be completely shunned by other Islamic states? That would be very contary to what I would like to see, and what Europe seeks! ::) ::) ::)
so you admit its Christian brotherhood ;D ;D
this is what our govts claim from the beginning.. although I dont care is it or not, I'm sure the leading party cares too much about it..
and to answer your question, honestly, look in history, those islamic countries once were on Ottoman lands, and they never like us anyway.. ;D but they dont like anything other than money ;D :D
and what europe seeks: I'm sure they dont want to see us between them.. neither this century nor the next one ;D :D
Oh yes Cem, that fact cannot be denied :y :y
But that is why I would really welcome Turkey joining as it would break down that situation which has existed for near 1,000 years. That is one reason why England and France in particular became involved in the Crusades when the "evil" Saracens took control of Jerusalem, "poor helpless Christian Jerusalem!!"
That is what we need to change so it is a brotherhood of Europe encompassing all religions 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
Nice to hear those words from you Lizzie :y
here , there are some factors about the situation that must be noted.. Turkey is a big country and have a high population (80 million nearly) .. and our population increase rate is nearly the double of avg european country..if we are added to EU, the power equations and EU parliament will change .. and many other things..neither the european heads and nor some Turkish heads(including me) are not ready for that imo..apart from the burocratic problems and any other things , we have a bigger problem here that we have to solve between us(my citizens)..(I wont go in details for the time being but you can guess)
I can understand that as I have studied the 'difficulties' in Turkey that you hint at as part of my research in the future of European integration. Those "problems" I believe worry those within the European Union, and outside it. I hope all is resolved one day Cem :y :y
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I can understand that as I have studied the 'difficulties' in Turkey that you hint at as part of my research in the future of European integration. Those "problems" I believe worry those within the European Union, and outside it. I hope all is resolved one day Cem :y :y
Nice to hear those words from you Lizzie :y
here , there are some factors about the situation that must be noted.. Turkey is a big country and have a high population (80 million nearly) .. and our population increase rate is nearly the double of avg european country..if we are added to EU, the power equations and EU parliament will change .. and many other things..neither the european heads and nor some Turkish heads(including me) are not ready for that imo..apart from the burocratic problems and any other things , we have a bigger problem here that we have to solve between us(my citizens).(I wont go in details for the time being but you can guess)
Aah, cem has touched on a very interesting point there Lizzie.
You have probably guessed that I am no fan of the Europe that is envisaged by those presently in Brussels, I do see however the advantage in having an association of friendly cooperating nations trading within the European region.
Cem's point regarding the particular circumstances within his own country lends me to ask, can we ever hope to have a truly united Europe given that we are a group of culturally diverse sovereign nations each having their own view on what ranks to be important in the way forward for their own nation?
Is it possible for the individual elements (each with its own history, language and cultural idea) l to coalesce sufficiently to have the common economic machinery, system of justice, domestic and foreign policy and security apparatus?
In my view that's a big ask and one reason why there seems to be tension developing within some nations of the group - considering the proposals for future harmonisation presently being made by 'Brussels'
I remain very uneasy about this whole experiment as it seems to fly in the face of the idea that individualism and freedom of choice should be paramount to the governments and peoples within the sovereign nations of the present arrangement.
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I can understand that as I have studied the 'difficulties' in Turkey that you hint at as part of my research in the future of European integration. Those "problems" I believe worry those within the European Union, and outside it. I hope all is resolved one day Cem :y :y
Nice to hear those words from you Lizzie :y
here , there are some factors about the situation that must be noted.. Turkey is a big country and have a high population (80 million nearly) .. and our population increase rate is nearly the double of avg european country..if we are added to EU, the power equations and EU parliament will change .. and many other things..neither the european heads and nor some Turkish heads(including me) are not ready for that imo..apart from the burocratic problems and any other things , we have a bigger problem here that we have to solve between us(my citizens).(I wont go in details for the time being but you can guess)
Aah, cem has touched on a very interesting point there Lizzie.
You have probably guessed that I am no fan of the Europe that is envisaged by those presently in Brussels, I do see however the advantage in having an association of friendly cooperating nations trading within the European region.
Cem's point regarding the particular circumstances within his own country lends me to ask, can we ever hope to have a truly united Europe given that we are a group of culturally diverse sovereign nations each having their own view on what ranks to be important in the way forward for their own nation?
Is it possible for the individual elements (each with its own history, language and cultural idea) l to coalesce sufficiently to have the common economic machinery, system of justice, domestic and foreign policy and security apparatus?
In my view that's a big ask and one reason why there seems to be tension developing within some nations of the group - considering the proposals for future harmonisation presently being made by 'Brussels'
I remain very uneasy about this whole experiment as it seems to fly in the face of the idea that individualism and freedom of choice should be paramount to the governments and peoples within the sovereign nations of the present arrangement.
This is NEVER an easy question to answer ZL. I am definately split myself on what form Europe should take. I believe, like you that it should be a strong, trading, and economic unit that keeps the very varied cultral nations together, talking, understanding, and mutually helping each other. Like you ZL I agree that the very nature of all the European countries means we are cultural diverse, which to me is a great strength. I wish that one day it will be even more diverse, with Turkey joining the club!
However, to form one Federal State, where we are all the same is so much air brained thinking. That will never (and I use that word with complete confidence) work! No, we must stay together as partners in a European consortium, but retaining our individual identities, whilst ridding Brussels of the waste and fraud that is costing all European nations dear!
Churchill never envisaged a Federal Europe, just a strong political and trading unit. He was right, as he was right in so much of his thinking. Why did he think along those lines during the end of the 1939-45 war, and why a generation earlier had the American President Woodrow Wilson sought the unification of the European powers in 1919? In both cases for the reason for keeping the European nations, with a terrible track record, at peace and talking to each other rather than committing to disastrous wars, then talking afterwards!! ::) ::) ::) ::) That is precisely the reason why I want a united Europe, talking, trading, and deciding matters together. Never again do we, and can we, allow war to arise in Europe, or elsewhere. In the words of Churchill, we must jaw, jaw, rather than war, war!
;) ;)
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whoever driving that van has lost all senses..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1353897/Egypt-riots-US-embassy-van-ploughed-Cairo-protesters.html
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whoever driving that van has lost all senses..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1353897/Egypt-riots-US-embassy-van-ploughed-Cairo-protesters.html
'kin 'ell cem :o - after the initial sense of hope, bravery and spirit it now seems likely that this uprising is going to get very ugly before it gets better :(
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.........// No, we must stay together as partners in a European consortium, but retaining our individual identities, whilst ridding Brussels of the waste and fraud that is costing all European nations dear!
*Edited only for server/space considerations*
I remain ambivalent but swayable on the first part Lizzie but on the second, I can agree with conviction.
I think the way the EU has been allowed to develop into this bureaucratic behemoth has devalued the many advantages there are to such a union.
I think it must be recognised that there has been some quite reasonable directives issued by the Commission/Council/Parliament (particularly in the realms of consumer protection) but these have been so poorly applied (excessively and assiduously so in the case of Great Britain) that the beneficial element that should emerge from their introduction has been greatly diminished.
Until such times that the maladministration and the financial black hole at the heart of this organisation is firmly dealt with the true advantage to such union will never be realised.
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Sunday
Enter stage left .......the Muslim Brotherhood.
Audience.................... Slight gasp
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Sunday
Enter stage left .......the Muslim Brotherhood.
Audience.................... Slight gasp
its a nothing meeting, designed to scare the west into sticking with Mubarack I'd guess :o
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today is sunday and I hate bad thoughts..
question: who do you think the organising power of those masses ?
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Sunday
Enter stage left .......the Muslim Brotherhood.
Audience.................... Slight gasp
Last week in Egypt, when Muslim Brotherhood supporters terrorized the secular media, several Arabic websites—including Arab News, Al Khabar News, Dostor Watany, and Egypt Now—reported that people were being “crucified.” The relevant excerpt follows in translation:
A Sky News Arabic correspondent in Cairo confirmed that protestors belonging to the Muslim Brotherhood crucified those opposing Egyptian President Muhammad Morsi naked on trees in front of the presidential palace while abusing others.
http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/08/16/muslim-brotherhood-crucifies-opponents-attacks-secular-media/ (http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/08/16/muslim-brotherhood-crucifies-opponents-attacks-secular-media/)
You are gifted with foresight, Varche. :( >:(
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Sunday
Enter stage left .......the Muslim Brotherhood.
Audience.................... Slight gasp
Last week in Egypt, when Muslim Brotherhood supporters terrorized the secular media, several Arabic websites—including Arab News, Al Khabar News, Dostor Watany, and Egypt Now—reported that people were being “crucified.” The relevant excerpt follows in translation:
A Sky News Arabic correspondent in Cairo confirmed that protestors belonging to the Muslim Brotherhood crucified those opposing Egyptian President Muhammad Morsi naked on trees in front of the presidential palace while abusing others.
http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/08/16/muslim-brotherhood-crucifies-opponents-attacks-secular-media/ (http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/08/16/muslim-brotherhood-crucifies-opponents-attacks-secular-media/)
You are gifted with foresight, Varche. :( >:(
Oh dear, there is more bad stuff to come then. Iran and Israel next up.
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That was a great thread - it was nice to read it again and realize that the quality of debate on this Forum knocks the ballicks out of most others and makes this a place to be treasured . :y
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That was a great thread - it was nice to read it again and realize that the quality of debate on this Forum knocks the ballicks out of most others and makes this a place to be treasured . :y
Used to. :-X ;)
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I love a mass debate ::)
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I love to mass debate ::)
Fixed that for you EP :y ;)