Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Nickbat on 06 March 2011, 00:42:44
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Well, talk about what ye sow, so shall ye reap. I bet Vince Cable is wetting himself with pleasure now.
Indeed, I guess all the bank-bashers - including a few on here - will be joyful. Except for the fact that it will mean job losses and less money for the Treasury coffers. And, of course, if one bank - or indeed any organisation - thinks that London has become uncompetitive, it could well be the start of the exodus.
The Cleggerons score yet another own goal. >:(
A sad day, IMHO.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/8363584/HSBC-reveals-plans-to-quit-London-for-Hong-Kong.html
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I hate to say I told y,all so, but..................... ::) :(
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Stop Press: Hong Kong bank threatens to move to ........Hong Kong......again....terribly sorry old boy, I am a little tired.
They won't.
Dig this thread up in a year and they'll still be here. ;)
and I'll pop in an "I told you so" for 2012 :y
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Job losses?
You mean like the thousands of hard working legal miners sacked by Thatcher? >:(
And the British car workers jobs lost in the last 30 years? >:(
Banks?
who wants to work for legalised criminals anyway?
:
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This has been talked about for a while. even if they move the head office to Hong Kong the bank will still function in the UK.
btw EMU83 don't forget there are people on here from all walks of life some of which who work for banks like myself who works for the bank mentioned ;)
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Call them what you want, but if you dont recognise the fact that the countries economy is extrememly dependant on the revenue they generate, then you have your head immersed in a very large bucket of sand.
It shouldnt be that way, but it is and it will take a long time to change it.
Be careful what you wish for. ;)
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This has been talked about for a while. even if they move the head office to Hong Kong the bank will still function in the UK.
btw EMU83 don't forget there are people on here from all walks of life some of which who work for banks like myself who works for the bank mentioned ;)
then you'll know, yourself they drag this "we're leaving London" out every few years - we're all supposed to thank them for what? deigning to base themselves in the financial hub of the universe, stay or go - but either way stop bleating about it - even Merv King hates bankers now :-?
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This has been talked about for a while. even if they move the head office to Hong Kong the bank will still function in the UK.
btw EMU83 don't forget there are people on here from all walks of life some of which who work for banks like myself who works for the bank mentioned ;)
then you'll know, yourself they drag this "we're leaving London" out every few years - we're all supposed to thank them for what? deigning to base themselves in the financial hub of the universe, stay or go - but either way stop bleating about it - even Merv King hates bankers now :-?
Self-loathing. Not a good sign for the governor of the bank of england. ;D
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Stop Press: Hong Kong bank threatens to move to ........Hong Kong......again....terribly sorry old boy, I am a little tired.
They won't.
Dig this thread up in a year and they'll still be here. ;)
and I'll pop in an "I told you so" for 2012 :y
They review their HQ location every three years and this is the first time that staying in London has not gone through "on the nod". Also, I don't read this as a threat, but a statement of intent.
The maintenance of the City of London as financial centre is vital to the UK economy, as Albs has said. You may not like it, but that doesn't make it any less of a fact. ;)
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It is reviewed every 3 years but the way the tax is being taken for all banks not just those who have had government backing is not fair which is why HSBC is looking at moving away one of the only banks not to require government assistance.
The banks that turn a profit who have had help should be made to turn over part of that profit to pay back what is owed to clear the debit quicker.
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Stop Press: Hong Kong bank threatens to move to ........Hong Kong......again....terribly sorry old boy, I am a little tired.
They won't.
Dig this thread up in a year and they'll still be here. ;)
and I'll pop in an "I told you so" for 2012 :y
They review their HQ location every three years and this is the first time that staying in London has not gone through "on the nod". Also, I don't read this as a threat, but a statement of intent.
The maintenance of the City of London as financial centre is vital to the UK economy, as Albs has said. You may not like it, but that doesn't make it any less of a fact. ;)
yeah i'm sure they're seriously researching where else in the world they can get all their good coke and clean hookers in relative safety :y
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Thats a rather outrageous thing to say about a whole industry of hundreds of thousands of people, of both sexes.
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Thats a rather outrageous thing to say about a whole industry of hundreds of thousands of people.
You're letting him do it again Albs. ::)
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Stop Press: Hong Kong bank threatens to move to ........Hong Kong......again....terribly sorry old boy, I am a little tired.
They won't.
Dig this thread up in a year and they'll still be here. ;)
and I'll pop in an "I told you so" for 2012 :y
They review their HQ location every three years and this is the first time that staying in London has not gone through "on the nod". Also, I don't read this as a threat, but a statement of intent.
The maintenance of the City of London as financial centre is vital to the UK economy, as Albs has said. You may not like it, but that doesn't make it any less of a fact. ;)
yeah i'm sure they're seriously researching where else in the world they can get all their good coke and clean hookers in relative safety :y
never touched either and never will (unless you are talking about cola and rugby)
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HSBC have form for this sort of thing. The HSBC building was designed so that it could be dismantled and re-erected elsewhere, if Hong Kong went belly up after it was given back to China in 1997.
As an international company they are obliged to review their domicle from time to time to ensure that they are operating in the most advantageous environment. In my view its abit of sabre rattling, but if the witchhunt continous then they may well make good on their threat to leave....
However despite the higher taxes here, the UK remains a relatively safe and stable place to do business and ultimatly if there is another financial crisis they will get help fom the UK government, which they couldn't rely on from the Chinese or Singaporeans.... ::)
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It does not seem to matter where bank head quarters are, apart from of course the employment given to a huge workforce.
They pay about 1% in corporation tax as they are registered for tax elsewhere! ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) Barclays Bank; 1% corporation tax on pre tax profits of £11.6bn in 2009.
:( :(Tax avoidance in the extreme! ;)
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It does not seem to matter where bank head quarters are, apart from of course the employment given to a huge workforce.
They pay about 1% in corporation tax as they are registered for tax elsewhere! ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) Barclays Bank; 1% corporation tax on pre tax profits of £11.6bn in 2009.
:( :(Tax avoidance in the extreme! ;)
Lizzie how dare you - its a legimitate business practice not tax avoidance ;)
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Good to hear Mervyn King giving greedy banks and greedy bankers a well deserved verbal kicking on the BBC news yesterday.
I rather like old Merv.... ;).......about as much as I dislike Angela Knight... :( :(
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Job losses?
You mean like the thousands of hard working legal miners sacked by Thatcher? >:(
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Sorry. Run that by me again?
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It does not seem to matter where bank head quarters are, apart from of course the employment given to a huge workforce.
They pay about 1% in corporation tax as they are registered for tax elsewhere! ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) Barclays Bank; 1% corporation tax on pre tax profits of £11.6bn in 2009.
:( :(Tax avoidance in the extreme! ;)
Looks like a paltry amount expressed like that Lizzie....... :-* :-* :-* :-*
Eleven thousand six hundred million pounds sounds far more impressive..... ;)
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12658880
HSBC, Europe's biggest bank, has denied reports it is planning to move its head office from London to Hong Kong.
The Sunday Telegraph quoted a major, unnamed, investor as saying "we were told that a move [to Hong Kong] is now more than likely".
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12658880
HSBC, Europe's biggest bank, has denied reports it is planning to move its head office from London to Hong Kong.
The Sunday Telegraph quoted a major, unnamed, investor as saying "we were told that a move [to Hong Kong] is now more than likely".
They say that such talk is "speculative and presumptuous", so not a flat out denial. Anyway, I hope that the Telegraph is wrong and thet HSBC remain headquartered in London. :y
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12658880
HSBC, Europe's biggest bank, has denied reports it is planning to move its head office from London to Hong Kong.
The Sunday Telegraph quoted a major, unnamed, investor as saying "we were told that a move [to Hong Kong] is now more than likely".
They say that such talk is "speculative and presumptuous", so not a flat out denial. Anyway, I hope that the Telegraph is wrong and thet HSBC remain headquartered in London. :y
as do all the pimps and dealers :y
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12658880
HSBC, Europe's biggest bank, has denied reports it is planning to move its head office from London to Hong Kong.
The Sunday Telegraph quoted a major, unnamed, investor as saying "we were told that a move [to Hong Kong] is now more than likely".
They say that such talk is "speculative and presumptuous", so not a flat out denial. Anyway, I hope that the Telegraph is wrong and thet HSBC remain headquartered in London. :y
as do all the pimps and dealers :y
If you have evidence that HSBC staff use drugs & prostitutes then kindly post it here.
No, you don't have any do you? Just leftie slurs again. ::) ::) ::) ::)
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I replied to it when it was posted earlier in the thread, but its been repeated. Looks to me like a deliberate attempt to inflame the debate.Start another heated argument. Button pressed. ;)
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Guys play nicely else I will delete either certain posts or the whole thing.
:y
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Job losses?
You mean like the thousands of hard working legal miners sacked by Thatcher? >:(
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Sorry. Run that by me again?
????????????????????????
If your from Sheffield mate, well....if you dont know then this thread is above you........ :-[
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I had (and still have) sympathy for the miners, but that moron Scargill signed their death warrants for them. He was the biggest enemy of the working class I have ever seen. ;)
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A few random thoughts as you all know my feelings towards the banks.
1. Where is their loyalty.?
2. Some clues in the name behind the nmemonic HSBC. They are there, you just have to look.
3. They are still not lending enough to small and medium businesses.
4. They don't exactly contribute a lot in terms of corporation tax.
5. Bonus bought BMW's and Ferraris aren't built in Britain.
6. Where is there loyalty.
7. Didn't they benefit from the bank bail out?
8. Where is there loyalty?
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A few random thoughts as you all know my feelings towards the banks.
1. Where is their loyalty.? - presumably to their shareholders, which is where it should be.
2. Some clues in the name behind the nmemonic HSBC. They are there, you just have to look. Hong kong/ shanghai ? a global business, which (unfortunately imo) many buisinesses are these days.
3. They are still not lending enough to small and medium businesses.
The credit crunch started when banks were lending money to people who couldnt afford to pay it back. They are extremely risk averse atm, which although understandable to a point, is going to have to change. But it wont be easy to change quickly.
4. They don't exactly contribute a lot in terms of corporation tax.
They contribute what they.. are legallly obliged to - they are businesses not. charities - every business from the one man self employed outfit to the global giants dont pay a penny in tax that they can legally avoid paying. Thats just good business sense. If they are deemed to be paying less than their fair share, its up to the govt. to change the rules. They do pay enormous amounts of tax overall though. And bankrolled the economic boom of the last decade with the taxes they paid.
5. Bonus bought BMW's and Ferraris aren't built in Britain.
True, but whose fault is it that we dont have much of a car industry any longer - not theirs. The purchase of these top drawer cars does still contribute quite a lot in tax to the treasury.
Also, the favoured car of the city boys and girls in recent times has been the Aston Martin, which is built in this country.I know of one very clever chap who has matching his and hers DB9,s for him and his wife.
6. Where is there loyalty.
7. Didn't they benefit from the bank bail out?
Iirc HSBC (like the majority of banks in this country) didnt. :-/
8. Where is there loyalty?
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If they do go maybe it will be the kick up the arse the country needs to go back to generating wealth from manufacturing rather than shuffling figures on a spreadsheet.
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you cant do that overnight though John. Even with the political will to go in that direction it will take many years, if its possible to do it at all.
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you cant do that overnight though John. Even with the political will to go in that direction it will take many years, if its possible to do it at all.
Even the longest journey starts with one step.
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Absolutely, although we dont want the treasury losing about 20% of its revenue in the meantime. ;)
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i'm not passing judgement on the whole drugs/hookers use - fairplay to them, but its part of the whole high flying/high pressure/massive bonus/masters of the universe schtick - they're the ones more likely to break off at the drop of a hat, the more sober, settled, family types are more likely to stay - so obviously not all HSBC employees indulge, but the culture is palpably there :o
please dont make me quote the Daily Mail :(
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i'm not passing judgement on the whole drugs/hookers use - fairplay to them, but its part of the whole high flying/high pressure/massive bonus/masters of the universe schtick - they're the ones more likely to break off at the drop of a hat, the more sober, settled, family types are more likely to stay - so obviously not all HSBC employees indulge, but the culture is palpably there :o
please dont make me quote the Daily Mail :(
Same as in almost any other job ::)
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Maybe we could replace their loss with a home spun version of Mondragon. The chief execs can't earn more than approx six times the wage of the lowliest paid worker. They wouldn't have spare cash for drugs etc! Successful business and it includes banking. Doubt the model would work in Britain somehow.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation
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Call them what you want, but if you dont recognise the fact that the countries economy is extrememly dependant on the revenue they generate, then you have your head immersed in a very large bucket of sand.
It shouldnt be that way, but it is and it will take a long time to change it.
Be careful what you wish for. ;)
So why did we as tax payers have to bail them out :question
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you cant do that overnight though John. Even with the political will to go in that direction it will take many years, if its possible to do it at all.
I don't think you can do it for tens if not hundreds of years - until all the other manufacturing countries become as wealthy and expensive as ours is.
Because, really, who here wants to go and weld steel together for £3.50 a day? Because that's what they'll pay (probably more than!) someone in India or China. Can you compete? Do you want to? Wouldn't you rather retrain for a job that is required and needed in this country to support it's current economy?
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Call them what you want, but if you dont recognise the fact that the countries economy is extrememly dependant on the revenue they generate, then you have your head immersed in a very large bucket of sand.
It shouldnt be that way, but it is and it will take a long time to change it.
Be careful what you wish for. ;)
So why did we as tax payers have to bail them out :question
Because some stuff happened (in a very short space of time) that meant they were all on the verge of bankruptcy.
Now, if we'd led them all go bust (which, incidentally, means the gov't would be bailing everyone out anyway to the tune of £50k a piece or less) the country would have followed swiftly after.
Do you want the whole country to be bankrupt (like Iceland)? We'd probably suddenly find that we can't import food, fuel, electricity..
Welcome to the stone age, everyone!
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you cant do that overnight though John. Even with the political will to go in that direction it will take many years, if its possible to do it at all.
I don't think you can do it for tens if not hundreds of years - until all the other manufacturing countries become as wealthy and expensive as ours is.
Because, really, who here wants to go and weld steel together for £3.50 a day? Because that's what they'll pay (probably more than!) someone in India or China. Can you compete? Do you want to? Wouldn't you rather retrain for a job that is required and needed in this country to support it's current economy?
You make some very vaild points, Aaron. :y Of course, we'd all like to see a revival in manufacturing but, as you point out, we simply can't compete with overseas suppliers. Indeed, those who bring up the miners strike seem to forget that much coal was starting to be imported from Poland at much cheaper prices...the writing was on the wall, IMHO.
It seems to me that the future for manufacturing lies in niche markets. For example, we have a thriving motor sports industry, with many F1 and indy cars being made here in the UK. For niche manufaturing we need to provide quality, quality and more quality. We cannot compete on price.
Interstingly, the Germans have managed to keep quite a good deal of their manufacturing base because they produce quality goods (or, at least, they are perceived to produce quality goods before we start an argument!). Think Audi, BMW, Kärcher, and many kitchen unit manufacturers such as Poggenpohl. If we can produce very high quality and innovative goods without concentrating too much on price, we could see a moderate revival. We can't look back and expect to see a new British Leyland rising from the ashes. It was rubbish then and it would be rubbish now. ;)
Just my thoughts. :y
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Yes.. god no, please no more Austin Allegros and Montegos! ;D
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I earn a 'performance' related bonus. I expect to receive a reasonable bonus if I perform well but in proportion.
Experienced engineering resource is now becoming hard to find (everyone is heading for the banking industry ::))
If I make seriously flawed engineering judgements, that cost my company large sums of money, I would expect to receive no bonus. If I made real howlers, I might expect to loose my job.
The banking industry have made some real howlers.
If we don't pay their 'performance' related bonus packages, the 'talent' will go elsewhere :-?.
Our European friends are all making things. Manufacturing washing machines, cookers, televisions, boilers, furniture, cars, industrial transformers (there is a five year waiting list!), steam turbines, nuclear power stations.....
We used to be world leaders in all of these categories..
We then moved to the finance industry.........
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I earn a 'performance' related bonus. I expect to receive a reasonable bonus if I perform well but in proportion.
Experienced engineering resource is now becoming hard to find (everyone is heading for the banking industry ::))
If I make seriously flawed engineering judgements, that cost my company large sums of money, I would expect to receive no bonus. If I made real howlers, I might expect to loose my job.
The banking industry have made some real howlers.
If we don't pay their 'performance' related bonus packages, the 'talent' will go elsewhere :-?.
Our European friends are all making things. Manufacturing washing machines, cookers, televisions, boilers, furniture, cars, industrial transformers (there is a five year waiting list!), steam turbines, nuclear power stations.....
We used to be world leaders in all of these categories..
We then moved to the finance industry.........
Fair comment, Mike, though I would add that the work ethic in the UK was seriously undermined by the unions in the 1970s with people like Red Robbo who constantly wanted more money without productivity increases. I think that countries like Germany were not held back by the industrial relations problems we had then and forged ahead. The trend towards the financial industry(which has served the UK well financially) was not a conscious decision, but rather driven by a collapsing manufacturing base. It was made worse, in my opinion, by a snobbery within the educational system at the time which deemed that anyone wanting to use their hands and actually build something was mentally retarded. Hence the rush for degrees in Politics, Philosophy & Economics et al, which were so fashionable at the time. Some may say that snobbery continues to this day. :(
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Many valid points have been raised relating to this issue. Being a free market society, all businesses big or small make whatever decision which they believe would be in the best interest of their owners, which is the share holders in this case.
The issue is because it is a "foreign institution" and therefore possibly relocating causes constination. Don't forget every major company which sets up in a foreign country does so if there are financial incentives, and this is considered over what value you would bring to the local economy in the way of employment and other benefits.
Quite rightly it's been said that England were world leaders in various categories for manufacturing :). I also agree with miked response.
But there were additional factors I believe, where choices were made by the next generation not wanting to work in industries where their parents work for little and nothing with possibly just ill health in repayment :( :(. Parents also agreed in this as they also did not want their little johnny/mary to follow them. London has always been seen as the place for someone to make their fortune (enter stage right Dick Whittington).
With the other countries providing cheaper labour obviously business would take advantage of this and therefore decided to locate there :( ,although in recent years this as been offset, only by a small degree, with some manufacturing companies setting up business here as they still saw there is a ready workforforce with a set of ready engineering skills. :) :)
UK decided to focus on the financial sector as they saw more money could be made in this, even to the point of wanting to be the centre for the Eurobean banks location. This is where specialism comes into it's own. I would say whatever government it was at the time, decided that was what the uk was good at as the Ciy of London had a long history of finance and trade and did so throughout the world and so therefore it was that other countries were left to manufacturing. ::) England still do have some manufacturing companies, mainly small family run concerns, but it is no way a manufacturing powerhouse.
I do not mean to digress so back to the HSBC having its roots in Asia. As the asiatic region, which is quite geographically substantial, I believe its decison to relocate, whenever that is, is more strategic than just the corparation tax issue and red tape. They would find it far more easier to take advantage of the economic growth of those various economies as Hong Kong is idealy strategically placed.
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I think that countries like Germany were not held back by the industrial relations problems we had then and forged ahead.
Germany is an interesting example.
I lived in Berlin for two years (96 and 97). The wall came down in 88 (or around then). Re-unification was only really getting going whilst I was there. West Germans were (at that time) rather bitter at the investment going into the East, the financial investment in the East was extensive and a tremendous drag on the countries resources.
What stands out to me, looking at our European partners in particular, those countries that manufacture things, physical tangible things is, in my view, reflected in their GDPs.
We don't make anything any more...
Don' t get me wrong. I don't want to see the back of the financial industry in the UK
However...
Mr. Diamond has just received a bonus package worth over £6M, a total package of over £9M for 2010.
He requested a reduced bonus because he was sensitive to the current ill feeling towards banks and the bonuses they award...
Pay awards on this scale are immoral and quite frankly distasteful. Many, many innocent people have and are suffering as a consequence of the banking industries reckless activities.
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Question ....
Why are so many of you so upset at the pay/rewards/bonuses of the financial industry .. but you say not a single word regarding your favourite footballers / golfers / tennis players ???
The financial leaders will spend many years learning their trade and building experience, before being put in charge of mega-billion pound companies.
Footballers spend 90 minutes (sometimes) chasing an inflated bladder...
The pay/bonuses these guys are getting are part of a simple thing called a CONTRACT ... you know .. one of those things the footballers ignore and break for a pastime ... the CONTRACT will have stipulated something along the lines of ... "for every million you increase turnover/profitability you will recieve 0.1%" so when profits rise by 90 billion the bonus is pretty good.
Footballers get a bonus for BREAKINg their contract and signing with a new club, they get a bonus for winning, they get a bonus for every round of the cup they get through ... yet you whinge not ....??
Politics of envy methinks..... perhaps you should have worked harder at school ??? :)
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I have nothing against bankers getting big bonuses.
And Uk manufacturing is only aroun 11% of GDP now.
A sad state of affairs on the manufacturing front
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Question ....
Why are so many of you so upset at the pay/rewards/bonuses of the financial industry .. but you say not a single word regarding your favourite footballers / golfers / tennis players ???
The financial leaders will spend many years learning their trade and building experience, before being put in charge of mega-billion pound companies.
Footballers spend 90 minutes (sometimes) chasing an inflated bladder...
The pay/bonuses these guys are getting are part of a simple thing called a CONTRACT ... you know .. one of those things the footballers ignore and break for a pastime ... the CONTRACT will have stipulated something along the lines of ... "for every million you increase turnover/profitability you will recieve 0.1%" so when profits rise by 90 billion the bonus is pretty good.
Footballers get a bonus for BREAKINg their contract and signing with a new club, they get a bonus for winning, they get a bonus for every round of the cup they get through ... yet you whinge not ....??
Politics of envy methinks..... perhaps you should have worked harder at school ??? :)
Rather interesting slant on things :-?
I agree, footballers ARE paid too much.
Golfers are paid less.
Tennis players are paid about the same as Golfers (I think).
Footballers, Golfers and Tennis players did NOT subject their teams (or themselves in the case of Golfers and Tennis players) to reckless, GREEDY short term HIGH RISK (sub prime) 'investments' that required MASSIVE financial input to stop them COLLAPSING, paid for by the TAX payers..... (tried to match the use of capitals!)
Am I envious? really not at all. A few of my University friends work in the financial industry, one for Barclay's Investment as a matter of fact.
I'm not at home in the city, I enjoy what I do, I am well paid for it and my family and I are very comfortable.
Should I have worked harder at school? most probably. What that meant was that I had to work even harder at college and then at University to get my honours degree in Instrumentation and Control Engineering.
I take it you work in the financial industry then?
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I take it you work in the financial industry then?
Nope .. I just pride myself on having an open mind and not regurgitating the pap from the daily mail/mirror/sun/[enter own paper].
There is always more than one side to every story ... the press of the UK seem to want to do nothing but sensationalise everything or cause strife/envy/argument.
Unfrortunately, from reading the threads in General Chat there seem to be many who think the BBC/sun/mirror/mail have the monopoly on accuracy and truth.... my experience is exactly the opposite .. :)
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I think the important thing is not to be envious. Remember, if there were no millionaires in this world, there would be no Bugatti Veyrons, no lush hotels, no (in the old days) Concordes. Yes, we could all live in a society where everyone earned the same, but how boring would that be? ;)
Also remember that there are many common-or-garden workers who rely on the rich for their income (e.g swimming pool fitters and contractors, luxury car mechanics, and so on). If you got rid of the "rich" overnight, an awful lot of workers would lose their jobs.
The politics of envy is not healthy. ;)
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I take it you work in the financial industry then?
Nope .. I just pride myself on having an open mind and not regurgitating the pap from the daily mail/mirror/sun/[enter own paper].
There is always more than one side to every story ... the press of the UK seem to want to do nothing but sensationalise everything or cause strife/envy/argument.
Unfrortunately, from reading the threads in General Chat there seem to be many who think the BBC/sun/mirror/mail have the monopoly on accuracy and truth.... my experience is exactly the opposite .. :)
I'll not believe everything I read about footballers, golfers and tennis players then. Thanks for the heads up!
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no (in the old days) Concordes.
I don't think Concorde ever made a profit, even with the super rich / banker (with a B) ::)
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no (in the old days) Concordes.
I don't think Concorde ever made a profit, even with the super rich / banker (with a B) ::)
Perhaps not, Mike, but never underestimate national pride, it's worth quite a few percentage points. Economics is not just about numbers. Behavioural economics is a discipline in its infancy, but it takes on board a number of psychological influences and is probably more in tune with the real world. Give people pride in their nation and you'll be surprised how production benefits. :y
Take it away and ...well, look around you now. :(
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no (in the old days) Concordes.
I don't think Concorde ever made a profit, even with the super rich / banker (with a B) ::)
Perhaps not, Mike, but never underestimate national pride, it's worth quite a few percentage points. Economics is not just about numbers. Behavioural economics is a discipline in its infancy, but it takes on board a number of psychological influences and is probably more in tune with the real world. Give people pride in their nation and you'll be surprised how production benefits. :y
Take it away and ...well, look around you now. :(
I totally agree
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I have nothing against bankers getting big bonuses.
And Uk manufacturing is only aroun 11% of GDP now.
A sad state of affairs on the manufacturing front
I certainly agree. :y
It's a bloody shame to say the least. The foundations of the country have been compromised by the allure of the high tech, service and financial industries - howsoever capricious their true worth.
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I have nothing against bankers getting big bonuses.
And Uk manufacturing is only aroun 11% of GDP now.
A sad state of affairs on the manufacturing front
I certainly agree. :y
It's a bloody shame to say the least. The foundations of the country have been compromised by the allure of the high tech, service and financial industries - howsoever capricious their true worth.
I also think the loss of focus on building a skills base is a major concern to.
Engineering degrees are very out of fashion and the skilled manual workers are no longer being trained.
I would like to hope the new apprentice scheme may be able to help address that but, only time will tell.
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I have nothing against bankers getting big bonuses.
And Uk manufacturing is only aroun 11% of GDP now.
A sad state of affairs on the manufacturing front
I certainly agree. :y
It's a bloody shame to say the least. The foundations of the country have been compromised by the allure of the high tech, service and financial industries - howsoever capricious their true worth.
I also think the loss of focus on building a skills base is a major concern to.
Engineering degrees are very out of fashion and the skilled manual workers are no longer being trained.
I would like to hope the new apprentice scheme may be able to help address that but, only time will tell.
Yes, correct again - if the basics are unsound, no amount of window dressing - however much in keeping with the current trend - will produce a satisfactory result or generate conditions where the nation can create and maintain real wealth.
It seems to me that these practical skills will be needed sooner rather than later judging by the international situation.
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no (in the old days) Concordes.
I don't think Concorde ever made a profit, even with the super rich / banker (with a B) ::)
Ohhh yes it did :)
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no (in the old days) Concordes.
I don't think Concorde ever made a profit, even with the super rich / banker (with a B) ::)
Ohhh yes it did :)
Indeed, although as it lacked passenger payload capacity v. costs, each passenger had to pay a considerable premium for flying on Concorde.
That actually produced a small profit on Concorde flights for BA when full. However along came the Paris crash, then worse still 9/11! It decimated passenger numbers on Concorde in particular, and spelt the end to a great aircraft that could never catter for the mass passenger markets due to the running costs.
The passenger loadings needed to be double the number from the start, with of course full access to all major USA airports which it never secured. The "son of Concorde" as envisaged by the great man himself, Sir Barnes Wallace, would have been double the size and no doubt would have overcome the issues of noise produced by those wonderful Olympus engines!
But that is one of those points in history of "if, maybe, should of, if only"! :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
One day supersonic passenger transport will return :y :y :y
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I have nothing against bankers getting big bonuses.
And Uk manufacturing is only aroun 11% of GDP now.
A sad state of affairs on the manufacturing front
I certainly agree. :y
It's a bloody shame to say the least. The foundations of the country have been compromised by the allure of the high tech, service and financial industries - howsoever capricious their true worth.
I also think the loss of focus on building a skills base is a major concern to.
Engineering degrees are very out of fashion and the skilled manual workers are no longer being trained.
I would like to hope the new apprentice scheme may be able to help address that but, only time will tell.
Yes, correct again - if the basics are unsound, no amount of window dressing - however much in keeping with the current trend - will produce a satisfactory result or generate conditions where the nation can create and maintain real wealth.
It seems to me that these practical skills will be needed sooner rather than later judging by the international situation.
Maybe, maybe not - personally I think we have a long way to go before technology is suddenly no longer needed because the entire world is living in the dark ages. There are entire continents who haven't yet caught up to our standards of living (India, China to name but two) and sooner or later they will - all those millions of new people using technology will require ever larger amounts of technology and people to keep it all working (people like me, incidentally, so you know where I'm coming from on this).
Having said that.. don't think that all of those people who sit on their arses all day earning money keeping the world revolving are only good at that. Quite a lot of us are also good at turning a wrench or laying bricks - we don't just sit around all weekend painting our nails and looking after our skin ;)
If the shit hits the fan and suddenly IT is no longer required I have no doubt I can do whatever else is necessary to earn a living - whether it's laying bricks or plumbing. But right now, keeping the technological gears of the world turning pays more than laying bricks with a lot less backache, so I think I'll stay where I am.. the rumours of our (the IT industry/banking industry/whatever non-manufacturing industry you care to mention) demise are greatly exaggerated..
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We do have a good manufacturing base.
Take the financial industry. A Modern day succes story though the base is founded way back in time.
You lend some folk some money you don't have and they pay it back with interest at a higher rate than you borrowed it. You have some plush offices and nice salaries to go with the illusion. people would avoid you if you operated out of a bar with some heavies on hand.
Then it becomes more sophisticated. Gambling on the future (with the banks or should I say punters money). Bet on the price of pork bellies, oil, coffee etc in the future be it tomorrow or next year.
Everything is hunky dory as you cannot fail even if the instrument you invented turns out to be a complete crock as then the people bail you out for you "cannot be allowed to fail". If you gamble successfully you are well rewarded. If you don't, well you still get rewarded.
need an example. Cablke TV and telephony. What a great idea. Dig up the streets and compete with BT. Cost a fortune and the returns weren't there. No matter declare chapter 11 and write off the losses (punters share value reduced to something like a hundredth) Now the assets are all owned by the bank and we can sell it to Virgin media for a profit. Winners =Goldman Sachs. Losers= punters
What do they manufacture?, well money of course ( worthless bits of paper you can exchange for real things of value). The best confidence trick of all time by far. ;D ;D ;D
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agreed Varche, money from nothing is literally unsustainable unless you have constant and accelerating growth, the minute that stops the whole house of cards falls down :o
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It seems to me that these practical skills will be needed sooner rather than later judging by the international situation.
Maybe, maybe not - personally I think we have a long way to go before technology is suddenly no longer needed because the entire world is living in the dark ages. There are entire continents who haven't yet caught up to our standards of living (India, China to name but two) and sooner or later they will - all those millions of new people using technology will require ever larger amounts of technology and people to keep it all working (people like me, incidentally, so you know where I'm coming from on this).
Having said that.. don't think that all of those people who sit on their arses all day earning money keeping the world revolving are only good at that. Quite a lot of us are also good at turning a wrench or laying bricks - we don't just sit around all weekend painting our nails and looking after our skin ;)
If the shit hits the fan and suddenly IT is no longer required I have no doubt I can do whatever else is necessary to earn a living - whether it's laying bricks or plumbing. But right now, keeping the technological gears of the world turning pays more than laying bricks with a lot less backache, so I think I'll stay where I am.. the rumours of our (the IT industry/banking industry/whatever non-manufacturing industry you care to mention) demise are greatly exaggerated..
I wasn't really thinking of the imminent collapse of the technological sector Aaron far from it
World stability and prosperity amongst other things depend on the maintenance and development of IT, so it’s essential that we have suitably qualified, imaginative people who are able to do just that.
I was looking at the demise of out national manufacturing base and the logical reduction in people seeking skill-sets to exploit in that area.
We have allowed this to happen over some time believing that there would be ample opportunities for our people in the new technologies along with the financial and service industries to replace those jobs lost in the traditional industries which made this country a formidable industrial force at one time.
I think this is short-sighted and has merely allowed us to be held hostage to those countries now engaging in the very same industrial possesses that we decided were of little consequence (for a variety of reasons) in the new technological age.
We should be taking back those lost industries - to provide not only jobs for our own people but, more importantly, to provide a sound base upon which to build our national prosperity as it’s never a good idea to place too much faith in one or two disciplines such as IT or finance to be the main facilitators for any nation’s economic security.
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It seems to me that these practical skills will be needed sooner rather than later judging by the international situation.
Maybe, maybe not - personally I think we have a long way to go before technology is suddenly no longer needed because the entire world is living in the dark ages. There are entire continents who haven't yet caught up to our standards of living (India, China to name but two) and sooner or later they will - all those millions of new people using technology will require ever larger amounts of technology and people to keep it all working (people like me, incidentally, so you know where I'm coming from on this).
Having said that.. don't think that all of those people who sit on their arses all day earning money keeping the world revolving are only good at that. Quite a lot of us are also good at turning a wrench or laying bricks - we don't just sit around all weekend painting our nails and looking after our skin ;)
If the shit hits the fan and suddenly IT is no longer required I have no doubt I can do whatever else is necessary to earn a living - whether it's laying bricks or plumbing. But right now, keeping the technological gears of the world turning pays more than laying bricks with a lot less backache, so I think I'll stay where I am.. the rumours of our (the IT industry/banking industry/whatever non-manufacturing industry you care to mention) demise are greatly exaggerated..
I wasn't really thinking of the imminent collapse of the technological sector Aaron far from it
World stability and prosperity amongst other things depend on the maintenance and development of IT, so it’s essential that we have suitably qualified, imaginative people who are able to do just that.
I was looking at the demise of out national manufacturing base and the logical reduction in people seeking skill-sets to exploit in that area.
We have allowed this to happen over some time believing that there would be ample opportunities for our people in the new technologies along with the financial and service industries to replace those jobs lost in the traditional industries which made this country a formidable industrial force at one time.
I think this is short-sighted and has merely allowed us to be held hostage to those countries now engaging in the very same industrial possesses that we decided were of little consequence (for a variety of reasons) in the new technological age.
We should be taking back those lost industries - to provide not only jobs for our own people but, more importantly, to provide a sound base upon which to build our national prosperity as it’s never a good idea to place too much faith in one or two disciplines such as IT or finance to be the main facilitators for any nation’s economic security.
I think Zulu you are forgetting a very important issue; the issue of labour costs, and how much the British worker wants per hour.
Our "old" industries went mainly due to the fact we could not compete on price, when in other countries there were workers who would work for a lesser amount. This, combined with a reduction in demand for the "old" products we used to produce, along with our great expertise in new technology, sent our country away from the days of the Industrial Revolution.
If we could persuade our workers to work for less pay, and undertake work without expensive H&S restrictions then we could, just could, reverse the trend and become the great industrial power that started a decline in the early 1900s. But who would work for less, and see the standard of living plummet to third world levels? ::) ::) ;)
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ah yes, have the downtrodden masses work for less, not the leeches at the top of the pile :y
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It simply isnt possible in this modern, civilised country with high standards of living and very high prices for basic living essentials,to manufacture low cost /high volume goods on a large scale. Its nothing to do with workers accepting less or "leeches at the top" even working for nothing. To compete with the countries which are now doing that kind of thing we would have to pay people wages which wouldnt even keep them from starvation, never mind put a roof over their heads. And even if those at the top sacrificed their seven figure salaries, it would still be a drop in the ocean of global competitiveness.
What has gone around might just in the longer term come back around again when the countries now producing these goods become wealthier and standards of living/wages/expectations etc. inevitably rise. Wouldnt want to bet my last quid on it though tbh.
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I think Zulu you are forgetting a very important issue; the issue of labour costs, and how much the British worker wants per hour.
Our "old" industries went mainly due to the fact we could not compete on price, when in other countries there were workers who would work for a lesser amount. This, combined with a reduction in demand for the "old" products we used to produce, along with our great expertise in new technology, sent our country away from the days of the Industrial Revolution.
If we could persuade our workers to work for less pay, and undertake work without expensive H&S restrictions then we could, just could, reverse the trend and become the great industrial power that started a decline in the early 1900s. But who would work for less, and see the standard of living plummet to third world levels? ::) ::) ;)
Yes I do understand the costs issue Lizzie but the desire to obtain goods/services at the lowest possible cost isn't necessarily a good thing.
By chasing the most cost efficient means of obtaining goods for distribution and sale we have allowed our own industrial base to wither to the point where we could not - even if we wanted to - produce similar goods by using our own skilled labour.
Sooner or later these foreign produced goods will be less attractive in terms of quality, availability and cost – what will we do then?
The automobile industry that remains here (such as it is) has been very successful in reinventing itself following that chaotic period during which union power lax management, stunted research and development and excessive worker behaviour effectively decimated it.
Effective management, good labour ethic and cost control have all ensured the continued success of this industry - can this not be done with other lost industrial processes? If the will exists then surely we can find the means to implement a resurgence of home grown industry.
We depend too much of foreign made goods, we have disadvantaged our own industrial base by putting the bottom line before everything else and, worst of all, we have allowed critical skills to disappear in the process.
We should be taking care of business by ensuring that we have a broad-based industrial capability here at home and disregarding the allure of cheap goods from abroad for, one day, those goods may not be so competitively priced.