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Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: mh_trigger on 06 September 2010, 21:32:56

Title: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: mh_trigger on 06 September 2010, 21:32:56
Im expecting some funny comments to this but im genuinely torn.......im puttin a 2.5v6 into a corsa and i was gonna do it fwd........but people keep planting seeds for rwd........hmmm.....what shall i do peeps? :-?
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: smithpa7 on 06 September 2010, 21:45:19
Quote
Im expecting some funny comments to this but im genuinely torn.......im puttin a 2.5v6 into a corsa and i was gonna do it fwd........but people keep planting seeds for rwd........hmmm.....what shall i do peeps? :-?
A small RWD car with a lot of power is fantastic fun on the twisties. I would always be my choice 8-) 8-)
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Omegatoy on 06 September 2010, 21:49:55
would always vote rwd having never owned a wrongwheel drive car!!
However do frequent a lot of tuning/customising forums etc, and have to say there are a load of corsa,s/cavaliers/vectra,s etc etc out there with v6 in driving f.wheels, so why not be different from the sheep and do it correct wheel drive? far more fun very different, and a member of a very select club!!  :y
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Del Boy on 06 September 2010, 21:51:46
I owned for a short while a BMW 120d, that had 163 BHP and was RWD, it's probably one of the cars I've had most fun in, in a very long time  :y

Go RWD  :y
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: mh_trigger on 06 September 2010, 21:53:27
hmmmmm....if i do rwd then.......how much work am i gonna have to do........gonna have to build a tunnel for the prop for a start! :-/
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 06 September 2010, 21:53:32
have seen some rwd small cars with high power done by mechanics , but they were very hard to control as they lack in necessary weight.. :-/

one example was a small fiat with a 200 hp 1.8t passat engine with rwd ..  :-? thingy never goes straight  ;D
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: geoffr70 on 06 September 2010, 21:55:22
respect for contemplating the rear wheel drive option which probably would be more fun. I'm having trouble making a home made tractor rear wheel drive so I bet this must be hard! Crazy torque steer is sometimes a laugh aswell!
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: mh_trigger on 06 September 2010, 21:55:43
Quote
have seen some rwd small cars with high power done by mechanics , but they were very hard to control as they lack in necessary weight.. :-/

one example was a small fiat with a 200 hp 1.8t passat engine with rwd ..  :-? thingy never goes straight  ;D

is this a bad thing? :-? :y
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 06 September 2010, 21:59:53
another example was the friend mechanics e30
with modded 328 engine.. phew...once you push the accelerator down it become an evil , extremely dangerous and nearly impossible to control it..

imo in those cases LSD is a must..
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 06 September 2010, 22:01:28
RWD + Plus Loadsa horses = fun. :y
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: mh_trigger on 06 September 2010, 22:03:18
well this is my main dilemma.......it will be myself (7 years in the trade) and a v.good mate (15 years in trade)building this silly project so i am concerned about the pains we will be faced with!the other is that i wanna be able to drive it.......without dieing :y
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Martin_1962 on 06 September 2010, 22:24:06
More than 100bhp and FWD becomes more difficult to control.

Talking Vauxhall for example, the old 1.8 Astra GTes were point and squirt, did not handle and felt unsafe. The contempary Senator - well put it this way - I lost a GTe with a 12V 3.0 Senator when I was car delivering on a twisty road.

RWD all the way.

I do feel if you can drive that RWD is lot safer - one thing people forget is lift off oversteer - this is why inferior hot hatches were often found on the inside of tight corners in the hedge, an older superior hot hatch from the likes of Vauxhall and Talbot would be disappearing off into the sunset with the driver pretending he is leading the RAC rally.

As DelBoy said even the BMW 120 Diseasel was fun.
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 06 September 2010, 22:25:51
Quote
well this is my main dilemma.......it will be myself (7 years in the trade) and a v.good mate (15 years in trade)building this silly project so i am concerned about the pains we will be faced with!the other is that i wanna be able to drive it.......without dieing :y

Thats simple.

Fit proper brakes and suspension that can cope with the power, and use the 2 right hand pedals on the floor accordly.

Plus if all road users abided by the high way code and laws of the land then why should any body die.
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Martin_1962 on 06 September 2010, 22:29:16
FWD lift off oversteer is to me extremely dangerous and is why I always think big engines should drive the back
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Del Boy on 06 September 2010, 22:30:11
Quote
More than 100bhp and FWD becomes more difficult to control.

Talking Vauxhall for example, the old 1.8 Astra GTes were point and squirt, did not handle and felt unsafe. The contempary Senator - well put it this way - I lost a GTe with a 12V 3.0 Senator when I was car delivering on a twisty road.

RWD all the way.

I do feel if you can drive that RWD is lot safer - one thing people forget is lift off oversteer - this is why inferior hot hatches were often found on the inside of tight corners in the hedge, an older superior hot hatch from the likes of Vauxhall and Talbot would be disappearing off into the sunset with the driver pretending he is leading the RAC rally.

As DelBoy said even the BMW 120 Diseasel was fun.
100% agree  :y
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 06 September 2010, 22:31:57
For me FWD would always be the option with a small car like a Corsa as you can push them to the maximum, into and around corners, along twisting roads.

The drives I had in my sons and daughters Nova and Corsa, let alone in the company owned Cavalier SRi! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)  Tried the same in a then new Carlton RWD 1.8 and ended up spinning 540 degres up a M4 slip road! :o :o :o

Yep, I recommend FWD! :D :D ;)

Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 06 September 2010, 22:33:05
 :-?

I recommend you to try a small, light car over 200 hp with rwd..you will see its not a joke when you hammer it..

for those light cars fwd is a lot safer..
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 06 September 2010, 22:35:10
Quote
For me FWD would always be the option with a small car like a Corsa as you can push them to the maximum, into and around corners, along twisting roads.

The drives I had in my sons and daughters Nova and Corsa, let alone in the company owned Cavalier SRi! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)  Tried the same in a then new Carlton RWD 1.8 and ended up spinning 540 degres up a M4 slip road! :o :o :o

Yep, I recommend FWD! :D :D ;)


you were lucky Lizzie.. you could end up with a tree even.. :-/
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: mh_trigger on 06 September 2010, 22:37:36
ok this is getting harder and harder to decide!does anybody know what body/chassis mods will need to be done to run rwd? :-[
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 06 September 2010, 22:37:42
Quote
Quote
For me FWD would always be the option with a small car like a Corsa as you can push them to the maximum, into and around corners, along twisting roads.

The drives I had in my sons and daughters Nova and Corsa, let alone in the company owned Cavalier SRi! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)  Tried the same in a then new Carlton RWD 1.8 and ended up spinning 540 degres up a M4 slip road! :o :o :o

Yep, I recommend FWD! :D :D ;)


you were lucky Lizzie.. you could end up with a tree even.. :-/


Yes Cem, I was very lucky, as I only damaged a wheel cover when it touched a kerb!! :o :o :D :D ;)
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Jinglemaster2 on 06 September 2010, 22:41:40
I catually drove a Corsa C with the 2.5v6 in last year. It was hell. Torque steer was frankly horrendous as you would imagine. The only car I ever drove that had worse torque steer was Laidbacks Saab Turbo. I will never forgive him for not mentioning that the steering column will come off if you floor the car, and the seta was not attached either.

Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Martin_1962 on 06 September 2010, 22:42:14
Quote
:-?

I recommend you to try a small, light car over 200 hp with rwd..you will see its not a joke when you hammer it..

for those light cars fwd is a lot safer..


I have seen small RWD cars with nearly 300bhp and they handled fine.I think this might be it

[media]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/WanAC8f9Ufs?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/WanAC8f9Ufs?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/media]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WanAC8f9Ufs
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Martin_1962 on 06 September 2010, 22:43:44
Quote
For me FWD would always be the option with a small car like a Corsa as you can push them to the maximum, into and around corners, along twisting roads.

The drives I had in my sons and daughters Nova and Corsa, let alone in the company owned Cavalier SRi! 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)  Tried the same in a then new Carlton RWD 1.8 and ended up spinning 540 degres up a M4 slip road! :o :o :o

Yep, I recommend FWD! :D :D ;)



Never had problems down twisty roads with RWD, and the only time I had full slide the back tyres were a dodgy brand
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 06 September 2010, 22:45:24
imo, the car chasis and weight distribution are designed at the factory according to rwd or fwd..

not very simple..
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: mh_trigger on 06 September 2010, 22:51:30
Quote
Quote
:-?

I recommend you to try a small, light car over 200 hp with rwd..you will see its not a joke when you hammer it..

for those light cars fwd is a lot safer..


I have seen small RWD cars with nearly 300bhp and they handled fine.I think this might be it

[media]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/WanAC8f9Ufs?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/WanAC8f9Ufs?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/media]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WanAC8f9Ufs




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJYKqBizLH0&NR=1


i dont wana do this tho! :'(
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Martin_1962 on 06 September 2010, 22:53:29
Weight distribution - the more 50/50 it is the better a car is at corners, so putting a gearbox in the middle does help.

Some Alfas and the latest GTR have rear mounted boxes for weight distribution
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: mh_trigger on 06 September 2010, 23:00:48
now that sounds even more intense than just makin it rwd! :-[
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: mh_trigger on 06 September 2010, 23:02:04
im wondering if i push the engine and box as far into the cockpit as possible that would do sortof the same?!?!?!?! :-?
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Brikhead on 07 September 2010, 00:10:36
Quote
...people keep planting seeds...

(http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo273/brikheadphoto/PerformanceVauxhall3-6-070011.jpg)
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: david036 on 07 September 2010, 00:34:30
Has to be RWD, although the weight issue on a small car could make it 'interesting'  But this can be sorted very quickly, just like the old plod 3.0l cappri's - a lump of concrete in the boot.  I'm sure and LSD will help as well!
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: andyc on 07 September 2010, 15:22:31
If your going RWD then before you start cutting the trans tunnel and bulk head check with VOSA .

As you will be changing the ID of the cars shell you might fall foul to VOSA rules and have to go through an SVA test.

Theres lots on the Nett about this and yes VOSA & DVLA aren't clean on there own rules either buts is worth checking before you spend a bucket of cash for it not to be legal

Cheers
Andy
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 07 September 2010, 18:47:42
Cant do this in a FWD

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-7757606796407168876#
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 07 September 2010, 18:53:22
Or make a project car for drag racing.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x2G2DSG9dU&feature=related[/media]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x2G2DSG9dU&feature=related
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: albitz on 07 September 2010, 19:05:20
RWD is definitely the way to go imo. A powerful FWD car is a bit of a waste of time as the driven wheels are also the steered wheeels, and doing both jobs at once with a reasonable amount of power going to the wheels isnt much fun. You spend the whole time fighting and being limited by torque steer.
Assuming the driver is fairly competent small/powerful RWD cars are about as much fun as it gets on 4 wheels imo. Break traction going into a corner and just steer it on the throttle, on opposite lock while looking out the side window.
As I said in another recent thread on the subject - there is no such thing as a purpose built FWD competition car afaik - theres a good reason for that. ;)
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Webby the Bear on 07 September 2010, 19:08:16
hi mate,

i'm really no expert but how on earth are you going to keep the thing planted on the ground. its awsome idea to put that engine in but its gonna be 2 much power aint it?
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: 2woody on 07 September 2010, 20:34:37
front wheel drive is easier, but rear wheel drive is much better.

FWD is easily-doable with pretty much standard parts. And, if you have equal-length drive-shafts then there won't be any torque-steer.

RWD is much, much better, but much harder to achieve. As a first, you'd need to make sure that the roll-centre is known and compatible with the front - and you then need to set about designing the suspension installation to suit. It's a really tough ask, and one I'd have to think twice about before embarking on, even having spent the last twenty years designing cars for a living.

a good start would be putting struts at the rear as well as the front, providing the roll characteristics are right.

semi-trailing arms as per Omega are not really suited to a small car, and as for a live-axle, don't even think about it, I'm presuming you want a car and not a tractor.
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: unclelicklug on 07 September 2010, 20:35:47
Just for the sake of getting the thing done at all I'd probably stick with FWD, which I think can be more or less made up from fairly standard production parts - sorry I know I'm probably over simplifying there.

But to make RWD you will have to engineer the car from scratch, most significantly to make up a new rear end to incorporate some transmission...I don't know off hand what you would put in for that, I am sure there are ways but you'd be looking at a lot of work to make it work right in a very light car, playing with spring and damper rates.

I'm sure you know what you are doing but the above would daunt me...

For insurance etc I expect you would need an engineer's report on your finished car, should not be a problem if your work is good.

TBH I think FWD or RWD this will be overengined either way...but final word is don't let anything put you off giving it a try.
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Martin_1962 on 07 September 2010, 20:38:01
Live axles can work pretty well
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: hotel21 on 07 September 2010, 20:45:50
Back in the day when the (FWD) Mark 3 Escort was introduced, the rally types converted them to RWD so they could use all the Mk 2 bits they already had.

Best pic I can come up with is the following.  Mark 6 escort but you get the drift.

See what I did there??   8-)

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://media2.turbosport.co.uk/2008/6/2009022520574461693Nick%2520and%2520I%2520Swansea%2520Bay%25202006%2520resize.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php%3F138392-My-MK6-Escort-RWD-Rally-Car&usg=__e7XWJ7uezGf9DKRHUq8aQxIZrgc=&h=457&w=640&sz=58&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=AdO94TeqgBEKiM:&tbnh=165&tbnw=212&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmark%2B3%2Bescort%2Brally%2Bcar%2Brear%2Bwheel%2Bdrive%2Bconversion%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1259%26bih%3D829%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=567&vpy=269&dur=3370&hovh=190&hovw=266&tx=152&ty=114&ei=OZaGTIu2JseQjAeI3fHmCA&oei=EpaGTIqqMJXNjAfN0aCbCQ&esq=7&page=1&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:0
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: mh_trigger on 07 September 2010, 22:13:13
Right then......ive spoke to somebody whos done a rwd c20xe corsa and ive been advised that....and i quote  "unless youve got loads of money,loads of time and loads of space......dont do it!" so....and this is a very difficult decision :'(......im not gonna do rwd..... :'(...not yet anyway!  ;)

maybe in a few years :y :y :y

So i would like to thank all the oof members that have been teasing me with pictures and putting both cases forward :y
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 07 September 2010, 22:15:30
Leave the engine  in the front as FWD, then stick another in the back then you have 3 drive choices.

FWD, RWD or 4 Wheel drive.  and yes it has been done before.
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 07 September 2010, 22:17:37
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPlAksTNT9Q[/media]
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: hotel21 on 07 September 2010, 22:18:14
Quote
Leave the engine  in the front as FWD, then stick another in the back then you have 3 drive choices.

FWD, RWD or 4 Wheel drive.  and yes it has been done before.

The twin engine 2CV immediately springs to mind...

http://www.cats-citroen.net/citroen_2cv/2cv_history_sahara.html

Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 07 September 2010, 22:18:37
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V49s6XG4wjU&feature=related[/media]
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: bigegg on 07 September 2010, 22:20:55
There's a word for vehicles which are pulled from the front - horsecart.

I *hate* fwd cars - the only reason is cheapness. a proper car has the engine at the front, and drive wheels at the back.



Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 07 September 2010, 22:21:32
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3myogJsAYE[/media]
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 07 September 2010, 22:24:53
Quote
There's a word for vehicles which are pulled from the front - horsecart.

I *hate* fwd cars - the only reason is cheapness. a proper car has the engine at the front, and drive wheels at the back.


But a properly sorted car has beeter weight distribution which is why some cars fit thier gearbox's at the rear, not sure if the corvette is one of these.

Others will say a peoper car is mid engined, and other rear engined with rear wheel drive.  ::)
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: mh_trigger on 07 September 2010, 22:25:12
Quote
Leave the engine  in the front as FWD, then stick another in the back then you have 3 drive choices.

FWD, RWD or 4 Wheel drive.  and yes it has been done before.

LMFAO ;D ;D ;D

Thats definatley something to consider! :y
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: bigegg on 07 September 2010, 22:31:26
Quote
Quote
There's a word for vehicles which are pulled from the front - horsecart.

I *hate* fwd cars - the only reason is cheapness. a proper car has the engine at the front, and drive wheels at the back.


But a properly sorted car has beeter weight distribution which is why some cars fit thier gearbox's at the rear, not sure if the corvette is one of these.

Others will say a peoper car is mid engined, and other rear engined with rear wheel drive.  ::)

Weight distribution is easy - b&q sell 25kg bags of sand for 99p.[1]
pile some in the boot if you need more weight at the back.
can't do that with a fwd (cept a beetle)


[1] £14.86 i spent to keep me mobile in january  :)
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: mh_trigger on 07 September 2010, 22:34:16
just like the slab of concrete in front of old sports beetle! ;D
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 07 September 2010, 22:35:32
I had a car mag with a factory build Scirocco in it, they put 2 x210bhp engines, 1 front, 1 rear.

Then could run either or both engines.  and reckon about 4 secs to 60 and a theorectical top speed of 189mph if they could max the race engibes, dont think they took it above 150/160 because of the aerodynamics, am talking lates 70's early 80's when ever the car came out, not sure when.
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: mh_trigger on 07 September 2010, 22:43:21
lol.it really is amazing what could be done back in the 'good old days' just like the cat b rally cars!good old metro 6r4 etc! :y
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Mr Skrunts on 07 September 2010, 22:46:01
Quote
lol.it really is amazing what could be done back in the 'good old days' just like the cat b rally cars!good old metro 6r4 etc! :y

Not many, and the list goes on.


Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Sixstring on 09 September 2010, 14:35:07
Can I chuck my tuppence in here?


I have a few cars, but one of them is a FWD 2.5V6 24v, one is a RWD 3.0V6 24v, and lastly, one is a little 16v 1.4 hatch.

Which handles better?   Which goes round corners safer?  which is the most fun?

Amazingly, the smallest engined FWD one.

Now I have had Dolly Sprints, Lotus Cortinas, Lots of "proper" souped up cars, but that little Corsa is definately the easiest to drive, inspires the most confidence, the limit of adhesion is easy to find, but controllable, and day to day, its the most FUN to drive. (as well as being the cheapest to run and insure!!)
I am not really a Corsa fan, but I can drive like a hooligan in that and feel totally in control.

RWD or FWD?  very much depends on what you want to do with it, and the power you want to get from it.  there is not really a hard and fast  "this is better" rule. Horses for courses.
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Bojan on 10 September 2010, 21:10:24
Quote
FWD lift off oversteer is to me extremely dangerous and is why I always think big engines should drive the back

(http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/8789/57505252.jpg) (http://img256.imageshack.us/i/57505252.jpg/)
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Martin_1962 on 10 September 2010, 22:54:00
Rule no 1 NEVER follow a small RWD car at the limit through bends, they brake when you don't want to, so you geet out of shape while I am laughing at the plonker getting out of shape.

If it looks like it has escaped from a rally leave a gap.
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: VXL V6 on 10 September 2010, 23:01:25
All depends on how competent the driver is and if they are capable of 'heel and toeing', but then, lets be honest, the vast majority of us drive a car sensibly most of the time with consideration for what might be around that next bend.

Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Martin_1962 on 10 September 2010, 23:50:45
Quote
All depends on how competent the driver is and if they are capable of 'heel and toeing', but then, lets be honest, the vast majority of us drive a car sensibly most of the time with consideration for what might be around that next bend.



When I had my Sunbeam it was a bit of a hot hatch magnet, and I knew my commute very well, and more than once I have seen cars getting out of shape trying to follow me.

I'm a lot older and more careful now
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: 24_Valve on 11 September 2010, 00:50:20
Bigegg wrote:
Quote
There's a word for vehicles which are pulled from the front - horsecart.  I *hate* fwd cars - the only reason is cheapness. a proper car has the engine at the front, and drive wheels at the back.
let's say you & I both need to get a heavy trailer up a hill... you can use a harness to pull it or stand behind & push? I've already got my harness on while your thinking about it  ;D

Top end Motorway cruising RWD every time :y hard into the bends, wet cornering & icy roads FWD. This is why RWD need traction control  :y

Albs wrote:
Quote
As I said in another recent thread on the subject - there is no such thing as a purpose built FWD competition car afaik - theres a good reason for that
Sorry Albs, have to disagree after owning a Neon ACR for 5 years  :y (All SRT-4 & ACR Neons are FWD)

"In SCCA ProRally racing, the SRT-4 (and more recently the ACR version) has dominated the Group 5 (2WD) class since 2003. In just its first year competing, the Dodge ended the stranglehold that the FWD DSMs and Volkswagens had on the class. With three competing the following year, the SRT-4 won every 2004 series race and end-of-season award. The SRT-4 has won every Group 5 and 2-Wheel-Drive class championship in US ProRally and Sno Drift since 2003, and its unprecedented dominance in 2004 helped Dodge earn its first US ProRally Manufacturers Championship in 28 years."

http://www.thesupercars.org/dodge/dodge-neon-srt-4/

(http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae249/londoner06/crawford_burnout_nhra.jpg)
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: bigegg on 11 September 2010, 11:28:34
Quote
Bigegg wrote:
Quote
There's a word for vehicles which are pulled from the front - horsecart
let's say you & I both need to get a heavy trailer up a hill... you can use a harness to pull it or stand behind & push? I've already got my harness on while your thinking about it  ;D


I'd hook it up to the back of the car and pull it.
And because it's a RWD car, the heavy trailer pushes the drive wheels into the road, instead of lifting them off the road. ;D

alternatively -
let's agree that we do it with the harness.
you use just your arms (FWD)
I'll use just my legs.  ;)

Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 11 September 2010, 11:52:21
ok.. I'll prefer a high hp big rwd car for empty roads and I can drive as I please..(thats possible only before 7 am and after 10 pm :()

but inside a heavy traffic with bumper to bumper those horses are useless and you spend fuel with many cylinders just for waiting.. :-/

I've driven clit in many styles and its really a predictable car in curves with high speed (if the traffic permit) and highly controllable although its fwd..

and must admit even 110 hp is more than necessary in many situations .. :-/

nowadays I'm using omega for weekends when we are crowded (with family) or if I'm planning to go somewhere else with friends..
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: unclelicklug on 11 September 2010, 21:08:51
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All depends on how competent the driver is and if they are capable of 'heel and toeing', but then, lets be honest, the vast majority of us drive a car sensibly most of the time with consideration for what might be around that next bend.




Not really with you there, heel and toing counts if you want to blip the throttle when down changing under braking for a smoother and/or clutchless change...did you mean left foot braking?
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Steve 1564 on 11 September 2010, 21:21:38
Having just bought a V70 -  have to say RWD wins hands down - possibly the only exception would be a "cheeky" mini - Heel & toe and looking for diesel spills on roundabouts  ;D....

On reflection most of the cars i owned in my youth were rwd and also on reflection thats the time i had the most convictions on my license !!!
"ahh... RS2000, Dolly sprint, toyota ST2000, fiat 131 (tc again) SD1's - wish i still had them now  :'(
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: VXL V6 on 11 September 2010, 21:24:46
Was trying to say that if the driver is competent enough to heel and toe (agree with you on the mechanics of the action) they therefore understand the need to equalise the engine revs to the next lowest gear to avoid the rear swapping ends, then thats someone I class as capable of driving 'at the limit' through the bends.

Regardless of FWD or RWD I was always taught to brake into and accelerate out of a bend (never anywhere within the bend) so I don't really understand the statement that says that a RWD will brake when a FWD doesn't want you too.

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Rule no 1 NEVER follow a small RWD car at the limit through bends, they brake when you don't want to, so you geet out of shape while I am laughing at the plonker getting out of shape.

If it looks like it has escaped from a rally leave a gap.
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Pipsqueak on 11 September 2010, 22:50:15
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Was trying to say that if the driver is competent enough to heel and toe (agree with you on the mechanics of the action) they therefore understand the need to equalise the engine revs to the next lowest gear to avoid the rear swapping ends, then thats someone I class as capable of driving 'at the limit' through the bends.

Regardless of FWD or RWD I was always taught to brake into and accelerate out of a bend (never anywhere within the bend) so I don't really understand the statement that says that a RWD will brake when a FWD doesn't want you too.


Quote
Rule no 1 NEVER follow a small RWD car at the limit through bends, they brake when you don't want to, so you geet out of shape while I am laughing at the plonker getting out of shape.

If it looks like it has escaped from a rally leave a gap.

Cant remember which way round it is, but there are different ways to get the most out of RWD, FWD and 4WD

One you can take the power into the bend but then feather off, (probaly FWD to prevent understeer) RWD you brake before the bend and power out once you trust the grip.  4x4 (4WD) can be powered all the way round the bend as long as you are not travelling fast enogh to roll the car at any pont.

Sensible rules still apply to all the above, but is generally regarded that any braking is done before you enter the bend.
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Martin_1962 on 12 September 2010, 00:05:34
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Quote
Was trying to say that if the driver is competent enough to heel and toe (agree with you on the mechanics of the action) they therefore understand the need to equalise the engine revs to the next lowest gear to avoid the rear swapping ends, then thats someone I class as capable of driving 'at the limit' through the bends.

Regardless of FWD or RWD I was always taught to brake into and accelerate out of a bend (never anywhere within the bend) so I don't really understand the statement that says that a RWD will brake when a FWD doesn't want you too.


Quote
Rule no 1 NEVER follow a small RWD car at the limit through bends, they brake when you don't want to, so you geet out of shape while I am laughing at the plonker getting out of shape.

If it looks like it has escaped from a rally leave a gap.

Cant remember which way round it is, but there are different ways to get the most out of RWD, FWD and 4WD

One you can take the power into the bend but then feather off, (probaly FWD to prevent understeer) RWD you brake before the bend and power out once you trust the grip.  4x4 (4WD) can be powered all the way round the bend as long as you are not travelling fast enogh to roll the car at any pont.

Sensible rules still apply to all the above, but is generally regarded that any braking is done before you enter the bend.


That is the one :y, I'm braking earlier to get on the power earlier
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Martin_1962 on 12 September 2010, 00:06:14
Quote
Was trying to say that if the driver is competent enough to heel and toe (agree with you on the mechanics of the action) they therefore understand the need to equalise the engine revs to the next lowest gear to avoid the rear swapping ends, then thats someone I class as capable of driving 'at the limit' through the bends.

Regardless of FWD or RWD I was always taught to brake into and accelerate out of a bend (never anywhere within the bend) so I don't really understand the statement that says that a RWD will brake when a FWD doesn't want you too.

Quote
Rule no 1 NEVER follow a small RWD car at the limit through bends, they brake when you don't want to, so you geet out of shape while I am laughing at the plonker getting out of shape.

If it looks like it has escaped from a rally leave a gap.

See th epost below :y
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: albitz on 12 September 2010, 00:45:12
Unless your proper good - then you would be setting it up sideways  with the scandanavian flick just before you get to the bend and planting your right foot even deeper and winding off the opposite lock as the bend starts to straighten out. :y
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: Steve 1564 on 12 September 2010, 06:44:05
Tarmac & on the limit there's little difference, get all your brakeing & gear selection done before you enter the bend & power out (correcting any under (fwd) or oversteer (rwd) on the way out) but you know that - gravel ect is a different story... Set it up sideways (Blomquist stylie!) and just power through - the flip scrubbs off some speed & points you to the apex (and looks dead cool!) - personally its easier in rwd (just use power) fwd needs a blip on the H/brake (or left foot) but kills the momentum but the front wheels willl drag it into the apex under power where rwd will increase the oversteer - 6 & 1/2 doz.... but hey its all good - Maybe i should look for a SWB quattro  8-)    Anyone here do any competitive driving ? (grass track, saloons hill climb ect ?)
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: 2woody on 15 September 2010, 10:01:58
someone almost got it right a bit back....

just look at it from a manufacturer's point of view :-

FWD is -
cheap to make
takes up less space
gives "safe" understeering handling for most drivers.

the downsides are -
handling is nowhere near as good
handling in extremis can be very bad (lift-off oversteer)
comfort is much worse

it all comes down to the use of tyres. Thyres hava a certain "available grip". You can choose to use this available grip to provide braking, traction an cornering forces.

on a FWD, in most cornering, you're expecting the front tyres to do the driving, braking and cornering, so it chould come as no surprise that they don't cope as well as they do when you re-locate the driving to the rear.

the only car that was available with either front wheel drive or rear wheel drive was I believe the Renault 21. And yes, the RWD variants were the sporty ones whilst the FWD ones were the "others"
Title: Re: FWD OR RWD?????
Post by: henryd on 15 September 2010, 12:42:55
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Unless your proper good - then you would be setting it up sideways  with the scandanavian flick just before you get to the bend and planting your right foot even deeper and winding off the opposite lock as the bend starts to straighten out. :y

if mr plod was coming the opposite way he would love that ;D