Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: Rogusu on 22 February 2011, 20:03:37
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Greetings and salutations,
I would like to unleash some of the V6 power. But I am not friend of a spanner (as my friend with Octavia says - the engine is that noisy black plastick thing under the bonnet ;) ), so I would like to ask for your opinions about some tips I have found here first. All jobs will be performed by garage or my brother in law (much better with mechanics than me), I will be only looking, I promise :)
For the overview, my Miggy is 97 3.0 sedan. I am running only cca 15-20 km short journeys most of the time, but sometimes I can get on longer trips and then I try to enjoy some right foot play :) I know this is not sporty coupe, but from what I read here, I beleive it can provide some interesting results :)
So I have 3 limits:
- I am little low on budget now, so I cannot buy some internal work on engine
- the car has to be still driveable in normal conditions (like pooling around town etc. cannot go in high RPM all the time)
- not as limit as just info, I do not care much about consumption. Now it is very good (cca 7-8 litres on 100km combinated drive :o) ), so I can go with something thirstier :)
Finally, what I have read here, I am thinking (just thinking now :) ) about this:
- using everything from intake up (injectors, FPR, plenum etc.) from 3.2 engine - here I would also like to ask if the throttle body is compatible?
- porting throttle bodies and intake plenum
- using 3.2 exhaust manifold
- mantzel type rezonator box (found some drawings, so I will try to have it done in work)
- installing cold intake
- ECU chip
- Do not know which one, so I do not know if I can afford it, but I would like to use lighter flywheel
All this will be done in steps during the year.
As I wrote, I am complete noob, and I beleive everything is easier to read than done, so I cannot estimate how difficult / expensive all those mods can be. I also cannot estimate the results... :) So any help, opinion, advice or tip is much welcomed.
Also, I am sorry for my English, it is not my native language
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2.6 / 3.2 manifolds are your best bet
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The standard air intake system is well designed and allows very good air flow. A replacement high flow panel filter is all you would really need :y
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- using everything from intake up (injectors, FPR, plenum etc.) from 3.2 engine - here I would also like to ask if the throttle body is compatible?
Pretty much indentical, so no gain
- porting throttle bodies and intake plenum
Unlikely to make a useful difference. Porting th heads may be more worthwhile
- using 3.2 exhaust manifold
Seems to be free-er flowing, might need 3.2 cats
- mantzel type rezonator box (found some drawings, so I will try to have it done in work)
I remain unconvinced that its an improvement on standard, and will certainly be less drivable
- installing cold intake
Standard car has a cold intake
- ECU chip
Some useful gains, generally at higher rpm, realistically <10% gain
I would like to use lighter flywheel
In reality, makes precisely sod all difference
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to be free-er flowing, might need 3.2 cats
You can use the existing cats, but you'll need to shave around 5mm off the lip on the top, where it meets the manifold :y
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You want performance, drop a V8 in....
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You want performance, drop a V8 in....
OP stated a tight budget ;)
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Hmmm... V6 chip ::) ::) ::) That reminds me :-X :-X ::) ::)
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Hmmm... V6 chip ::) ::) ::) That reminds me :-X :-X ::) ::)
Ah fak. Have you got a spare ECU?
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Hmmm... V6 chip ::) ::) ::) That reminds me :-X :-X ::) ::)
Ah fak. Have you got a spare ECU?
Oh, good! Do I get to play with my soldering iron in the bar at the Farnborough meet? ;D
Kevin
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Hmmm... V6 chip ::) ::) ::) That reminds me :-X :-X ::) ::)
Ah fak. Have you got a spare ECU?
Oh, good! Do I get to play with my soldering iron in the bar at the Farnborough meet? ;D
Kevin
Nope, socketed on all V6 :y
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Hmmm... V6 chip ::) ::) ::) That reminds me :-X :-X ::) ::)
Ah fak. Have you got a spare ECU?
Errm... Nope ::) Didn't think I needed one :-[
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Hmmm... V6 chip ::) ::) ::) That reminds me :-X :-X ::) ::)
Ah fak. Have you got a spare ECU?
Oh, good! Do I get to play with my soldering iron in the bar at the Farnborough meet? ;D
Kevin
Nope, socketed on all V6 :y
That answers that then ;D ;D
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Hmmm... V6 chip ::) ::) ::) That reminds me :-X :-X ::) ::)
Ah fak. Have you got a spare ECU?
Errm... Nope ::) Didn't think I needed one :-[
I dont have any spare chips, and its nice to keep your original in tack in case of issues.
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Hmmm... V6 chip ::) ::) ::) That reminds me :-X :-X ::) ::)
Ah fak. Have you got a spare ECU?
Errm... Nope ::) Didn't think I needed one :-[
I dont have any spare chips, and its nice to keep your original in tack in case of issues.
Isn't the immobiliser linked to the ECU too? Just so I know what I need to get
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Hmmm... V6 chip ::) ::) ::) That reminds me :-X :-X ::) ::)
Ah fak. Have you got a spare ECU?
Errm... Nope ::) Didn't think I needed one :-[
I dont have any spare chips, and its nice to keep your original in tack in case of issues.
Isn't the immobiliser linked to the ECU too? Just so I know what I need to get
We'll use your original ECU. We'll just use the chip from the scrap ECU ;)
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Hmmm... V6 chip ::) ::) ::) That reminds me :-X :-X ::) ::)
Ah fak. Have you got a spare ECU?
Errm... Nope ::) Didn't think I needed one :-[
I dont have any spare chips, and its nice to keep your original in tack in case of issues.
Isn't the immobiliser linked to the ECU too? Just so I know what I need to get
We'll use your original ECU. We'll just use the chip from the scrap ECU ;)
Ahh OK... I wonder if anyone coming to Farnborough has one kicking around ::)
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Hmmm... V6 chip ::) ::) ::) That reminds me :-X :-X ::) ::)
Ah fak. Have you got a spare ECU?
Errm... Nope ::) Didn't think I needed one :-[
I dont have any spare chips, and its nice to keep your original in tack in case of issues.
Isn't the immobiliser linked to the ECU too? Just so I know what I need to get
We'll use your original ECU. We'll just use the chip from the scrap ECU ;)
Ahh OK... I wonder if anyone coming to Farnborough has one kicking around ::)
Do you know what chip they take? 27256 IIRC?
I'll have a rummage in the junk box room house. :y
Kevin
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Hmmm... V6 chip ::) ::) ::) That reminds me :-X :-X ::) ::)
Ah fak. Have you got a spare ECU?
Errm... Nope ::) Didn't think I needed one :-[
I dont have any spare chips, and its nice to keep your original in tack in case of issues.
Isn't the immobiliser linked to the ECU too? Just so I know what I need to get
We'll use your original ECU. We'll just use the chip from the scrap ECU ;)
Ahh OK... I wonder if anyone coming to Farnborough has one kicking around ::)
Do you know what chip they take? 27256 IIRC?
I'll have a rummage in the junk box room house. :y
Kevin
Have posted a wanted but only if it can be taken to the meet... Not expecting much luck TBH so if you do find one that'll be great :y
I suppose I could nip into somewhere and pick one up if we know exactly what we need?
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I checked and I have a shedload of EPROMs of various sizes so will almost certainly have one. If someone can confirm the type I'll give it 15 minutes under the UV lamp to
top up its' tan make sure it's erased. :y
Kevin
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I checked and I have a shedload of EPROMs of various sizes so will almost certainly have one. If someone can confirm the type I'll give it 15 minutes under the UV lamp to top up its' tan make sure it's erased. :y
Kevin
Ahh... Marvellous :y :y TB would be the one to confirm, IIRC he's got one in his glovebox ;) ;)
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Wow, thanks for all replies :)
I do not understand much the late ECU discussion, so I assume it is not related to my post, right? :)
So from what I have understood now is that the biggest gain will be from ECU chip. Some other can be from 3.2 intake manifold and exhaust manifold. Minor changes can be achieved by throttle porting and using better panel filter (I bought the car with Steinmetz panel filter, I assume this is good enaugh) and Mantzel type rezonator is not good for everyday use (but this I will probably try as it will cost me nothing :) So I will report back).
I would like to ask what is th heads porting? And what will the lighter flywheel do (from TheBoy´s post)? I cannot translate it :)
I would also like to ask if there are more types of throttle bodies. I am thinking about buying the top of 3.2 engine (from intake manifold up), prepare everything and then change it as one set...
You want performance, drop a V8 in....
Well, it is my dream :) To put supercharger there. Or V8. Or supercharged V8 8-) But unfortunately, I live in diesel country (1.9 Tdi is almost saint here, dont know why), so nice V8 is very expensive. I have almost bought 5.7 V8, but then I realised that I do not have experience, skill and equipement to complete such project. But it is still dream, so if anyone has some tips, how to, parts needed etc, I will be gratefull for anything, so I can make notes and maybe sometime in future... :)
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The Boy said it does "sod all"...
which means it does nothing!
(Where are you from? What language?)
My personal understanding with lightweight flywheels is that they are quicker to speed up (less mass to rotate) that regular flywheels. This should lead to increased acceleration. However, they are also quicker to decelerate, and leave your car with less momentum, which is not a good thing if you live in an area with lots of hills!
Having said that, I have never installed a lightweight flywheel on ANY car, let alone an Omega. And I'm certainly not as experienced on these cars as forum legends such as The Boy, and other people with 63 stars under their name!!! :P
Also I believe because the Omega has a different flywheel to normal, you would have to change the clutch too to match it. Prob quite useful if you're going to go anywhere above 30% of the original BHP.
From what I've read about tuning Omegas, good things to do are:
Fit fast road cams (not race cams, unless it's just a track car!)
Uprated clutch - depends how much you push it...
Remap ECU?
(Of course some things have knock-on effects, like needing more fuel = bigger injectors = different FPR = uprated fuel pump! etc) This is why most tuning is done in "stages", so things are upgraded simultaneously to complement each other.
The age old thing my friend say: Air in, Air out. This is a good place to start Mods, so Stainless Steel Exhaust etc. Probably more important than most of the other stuff I've mentioned!
It all depends what you want to get out of it!!! Most SERIOUS upgrades are probably over the top for a daily driver!!
One more thing though, is you can always loose weight! I've been told the Omega weighs around 1700 kg. So you can strip things you don't need, and even replace with lightweight (carbon fibre etc) but I think we're getting beyond the realm of what you're asking!! That's more for track cars and underground street racing!!!!
I hope some of this has helped, even if I have gone off on a bit of a Fast and Furious tangent!! :)
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My personal understanding with lightweight flywheels is that they are quicker to speed up (less mass to rotate) that regular flywheels. This should lead to increased acceleration. However, they are also quicker to decelerate, and leave your car with less momentum, which is not a good thing if you live in an area with lots of hills!
Having said that, I have never installed a lightweight flywheel on ANY car, let alone an Omega. And I'm certainly not as experienced on these cars as forum legends such as The Boy, and other people with 63 stars under their name!!! :P
Also I believe because the Omega has a different flywheel to normal, you would have to change the clutch too to match it. Prob quite useful if you're going to go anywhere above 30% of the original BHP.
This all assumes the OP has a manual gearbox, of course!
But yes, a lightened flywheel will make a little difference in the lower gears due to the engine not having to accelerate such a mass.
You will need a sprung clutch friction plate as you'll be doing away with the dual mass flywheel.
A fair bit of expense and work for very little return, IMHO. Worth doing if you have to replace the clutch but not otherwise.
From what I've read about tuning Omegas, good things to do are:
Fit fast road cams (not race cams, unless it's just a track car!)
Uprated clutch - depends how much you push it...
Remap ECU?
(Of course some things have knock-on effects, like needing more fuel = bigger injectors = different FPR = uprated fuel pump! etc) This is why most tuning is done in "stages", so things are upgraded simultaneously to complement each other.
The age old thing my friend say: Air in, Air out. This is a good place to start Mods, so Stainless Steel Exhaust etc. Probably more important than most of the other stuff I've mentioned!
True, except that you'd be hard pushed to get enough power out of a V6 to require any of the fuel system to be uprated IMHO. Certainly not on the budget the OP eluded to.
Best path in this case would be to chip it and perhaps consider 3.2 exhaust manifolds IMHO. Intake setup is identical between 3.0 and 3.2 so no point in messing about there. Throttle bodies are not compatible as the 3.2 is drive by wire. I'm not a believer in porting throttle bodies as the standard ones are plenty large enough for the engine output and it's easy to make matters worse. The same is true of the panel filter also.
One more thing though, is you can always loose weight! I've been told the Omega weighs around 1700 kg.
Sage words indeed.
Kevin
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The Boy said it does "sod all"...
which means it does nothing!
(Where are you from? What language?)
My personal understanding with lightweight flywheels is that they are quicker to speed up (less mass to rotate) that regular flywheels. This should lead to increased acceleration. However, they are also quicker to decelerate, and leave your car with less momentum, which is not a good thing if you live in an area with lots of hills!
Having said that, I have never installed a lightweight flywheel on ANY car, let alone an Omega. And I'm certainly not as experienced on these cars as forum legends such as The Boy, and other people with 63 stars under their name!!! :P
Also I believe because the Omega has a different flywheel to normal, you would have to change the clutch too to match it. Prob quite useful if you're going to go anywhere above 30% of the original BHP.
From what I've read about tuning Omegas, good things to do are:
Fit fast road cams (not race cams, unless it's just a track car!)
Uprated clutch - depends how much you push it...
Remap ECU?
(Of course some things have knock-on effects, like needing more fuel = bigger injectors = different FPR = uprated fuel pump! etc) This is why most tuning is done in "stages", so things are upgraded simultaneously to complement each other.
The age old thing my friend say: Air in, Air out. This is a good place to start Mods, so Stainless Steel Exhaust etc. Probably more important than most of the other stuff I've mentioned!
It all depends what you want to get out of it!!! Most SERIOUS upgrades are probably over the top for a daily driver!!
One more thing though, is you can always loose weight! I've been told the Omega weighs around 1700 kg. So you can strip things you don't need, and even replace with lightweight (carbon fibre etc) but I think we're getting beyond the realm of what you're asking!! That's more for track cars and underground street racing!!!!
I hope some of this has helped, even if I have gone off on a bit of a Fast and Furious tangent!! :)
Thanks for help :) I didn´t want to doubt TheBoy´s statement, I justs didn´t know what "do sod all" is :)) I am from Czech Republic and still learning English :)
I am not going to race, I just think this car needs a few more horses to get the right feeling after flooring the gas pedal. It is good now, but I think it should be just a little better:) Cannot explain it, it is just the feeling :) So I was looking for some improvements.
Now it looks like I will get the porting and 3.2 intake at first, then during exhaust change I will also swap exhaust manifold and I will finish it with ECU. Should I use the one mention here: http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1293153796?
And I think that will be all. I cannot strap much as I am using this car also for familly trips.
I am just curious, what cams do you know for this engine? I was looking for them, but didn´t find anything :(
Again, thanks for your help :)
Just for the intake. The only reason I am still thinking about it is that I thought the 3.2 is using 3.8bar FPR, which is located near the injectors placed on intake manifold (just saw it on pictures, so I might be wrong). I might have a possibility to take the whole intake system from 3.2 cheap as the seller is unaware of this and I thought it should give me some reserve after better exhaust and ecu upgrade. But if it is placed in another area, I will leave it.
By porting I meant this: http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1267996783 so there is no gain? Again, I thought that for very low cost there can be some improvement :)
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In your first post you talk about the 3.2 throttle body and if they are compatible, as the 3.2 is fly by wire and the 3.0 has a throttle cable I dont think that there will be a lot of it that you can use.
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anyone got an idea if these are any good http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230521367776&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.co.uk%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm570%26_nkw%3D230521367776%26_sacat%3DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1&_rdc=1
they seem to have recieved good feedback from people who have bought it
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That will just be a chip from the MSD/GSI Vectra B
Looks worth it for the money tho
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That will just be a chip from the MSD/GSI Vectra B
Looks worth it for the money tho
In that case, it might not support the Omega's multiram setup.
Chips from ebay are a bit of a lottery, because you've no idea if the code came from a reputable chip that's been rippped-off (and sold illegally ::)) or a copy of something a teenager modified without knowing what he's doing.
Kevin
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You want performance, drop a V8 in....
OK, just for curiosity, I looked up some V8 engines :)
Althought not a GM 5.7 V8 I wanted, I have found some "affordable" 4.4 V8 from BMW. I have also found a mechanic, who agreed to help me. But we do not know, what this conversion can take. Does anyone have any experience with this? What else from engine do I need? What should I expect, avoid etc? :)
Any help will be much appreciated.