Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: Entwood on 19 September 2011, 17:58:56
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This is now an academic question as the situation has been resolved, but I still wonder if I actually broke the law or not ..... any views ???
Situation :
Put the wife's clit in for MOT 2 weeks before expiry of last ticket.
Car fails on 4 points, 2 of which are listed as "dangerous" 2 are just "fails".
Parts for the 2 "dangerous" and 1 of the "fails" obtained on the way home, the other "fail" required a parts order as not in stock.
Those 3 aspects were sorted over the next 2 days (Friday/Saturday), new parts fitted and checked as working .. but the 4th bit failed to arrive as ordered but it was a marginal fail and not dangerous in any way.......
For several reasons Mrs E had to use the car, so she did ..... but the point is .. was this legal ??
It had a current MOT, but it also had a fail, however the work had been done so it was NOT in an "unroadworthy condition" IMHO. ANPR would have flagged it as a "failed MOT" ... but how would that effect the driver ?? I'm guessing that the police/VOSA would have to prove "unroadworthyness" ??? but am I right or wrong ??
She wasn't stopped, the part arrived and was fitted, the car was taken for a retest, still prior to the expiry of the old, and passed with flying colours ... I was actually complimented on the standard of work by the tester, so as said .. its an academic question now .....
But .. was it legal or not ??? :)
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In my mind, it still had an MOT...
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I concur with Jamie. Thing is you were more 'not legal' before you went for the MOT as the car was in a dangerous condition by 2 of the failure points ..... you just didn't know it ;).
The car wasn't dangerous & still had a current MOT :y
AIMHO ;) ;)
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Depnds if it was given a failure which prevented its use on the road (which I am guessing you did not get as they would probably not let you take the car away)
However, its still illegal as although you still have an MOT you are driving a vehicle in an unroadworthy condition until ALL failure items are repaired.
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However, its still illegal as although you still have an MOT you are driving a vehicle in an unroadworthy condition until ALL failure items are repaired.
but the 4th bit failed to arrive as ordered but it was a marginal fail and not dangerous in any way.......
:y ;) :y ;)
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However, its still illegal as although you still have an MOT you are driving a vehicle in an unroadworthy condition until ALL failure items are repaired.
but the 4th bit failed to arrive as ordered but it was a marginal fail and not dangerous in any way.......
:y ;) :y ;)
I'm guessing that the law doesn't always/ever match common sense. Then again, you'll always get someone trying to push the limits....
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Depnds if it was given a failure which prevented its use on the road (which I am guessing you did not get as they would probably not let you take the car away)
However, its still illegal as although you still have an MOT you are driving a vehicle in an unroadworthy condition until ALL failure items are repaired.
That would be my take on it as well,once the repairs have been carried out the old mot (if any time remaining) would suffice up until the retest was carried out.
any fail however marginal is still a fail therefore rendering the vehicle unroadworthy in the eyes of the law
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Yep and you are knowingly driving a vehicle which is 'unroadworthy' (e.g. has a known MOT failure point)
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OK, different sceanrio (forgetting if MOTer was right/wrong).
I present my car with a month to go...
Fails on Air Freshener...
Is it still unlawful to drive?
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OK, different sceanrio (forgetting if MOTer was right/wrong).
I present my car with a month to go...
Fails on Air Freshener...
Is it still unlawful to drive?
Yes, until you remove the air freshener.
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It still has a valid MOT regardless of the fail points,however if it was a likely danger it would not have been allowed to leave the test center.
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OK, different sceanrio (forgetting if MOTer was right/wrong).
I present my car with a month to go...
Fails on Air Freshener...
Is it still unlawful to drive?
Yes, until you remove the air freshener.
Ah, but does it need the retest (post air freshener removal), before it becomes road legal again?
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OK, different sceanrio (forgetting if MOTer was right/wrong).
I present my car with a month to go...
Fails on Air Freshener...
Is it still unlawful to drive?
Yes, until you remove the air freshener.
Ah, but does it need the retest (post air freshener removal), before it becomes road legal again?
Technically no,once the umm repair has been carried out the vehicle is roadworthy again untill its retested
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OK, different sceanrio (forgetting if MOTer was right/wrong).
I present my car with a month to go...
Fails on Air Freshener...
Is it still unlawful to drive?
Yes, until you remove the air freshener.
Ah, but does it need the retest (post air freshener removal), before it becomes road legal again?
No as the defect has been addressed, the MOT would be valid until the current one expired.
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i'd have said that irrespective of whether you were still in the current mot period, as said before you were driving with something dodgy which could have been picked up if pulled over (depending on what point 4 was?! :-/)
as for the notorious air freshener, how big was it to fail a mot? lol
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if an MOT has been refused because of dangerous faults the car is deemed unroadworthy and can only be driven on a direct route to and from the garage to
A, THE PLACE THE REPAIRS ARE TO BE CARRIED OUT
it cannot or should not be used on a public road with the dangerous condition notice on it.
ergo you were driving illegally and the insurance would not have paid out in the event of an accident
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if an MOT has been refused because of dangerous faults the car is deemed unroadworthy and can only be driven on a direct route to and from the garage to
A, THE PLACE THE REPAIRS ARE TO BE CARRIED OUT
it cannot or should not be used on a public road with the dangerous condition notice on it.
ergo you were driving illegally and the insurance would not have paid out in the event of an accident
Quite happy with your first paragraph .. for the journey home .... but then the "dangerous" items were all fixed.
Using your statement, as written, it would not be possible to legally drive the car back for a restest !!!!
The only fault that was on the car was then "play at inner steering arm [steering rack fitted]" .. basicly the inner part of the trackrod, local dealer had plenty of trackrod ends but had to order the the inner part for me. I have had cars pass with more play than this one had.. it was not IMHO "excessive" but I did replace it once the parts arrived.
I suppose the root of the question is .... does a fail on the DVLA computer legally define "unroadworthy" or would police/VOSPA have to have the work I had done (on the "dangerous" items) checked in order to declare the car unroadworthy AT THAT TIME ..... ????
I capitalise that because we all know that having an MOT certificate only certifies roadworthiness at the time of the test.... so does a fail only denote "unroadworthiness" at the time of the test ....... :)
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A fail is a fail, simple as that, it has been deemed by the qualified tester to not be of a standard capable of passing an MOT. If it had been an advisory then it would have been different.
Remember that you can drive a car with 'failures' to a from an MOT station to a booked appointment OR a place of repair (remembering that if it had been 'dangerous' then they would not have let you take it away in the first place).
Clearly that does not include trips to the shops etc.
Yah bad old law breaker you ;D ;D ;D ;D :y
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A fail is a fail, simple as that, it has been deemed by the qualified tester to not be of a standard capable of passing an MOT. If it had been an advisory then it would have been different.
Remember that you can drive a car with 'failures' to a from an MOT station to a booked appointment OR a place of repair (remembering that if it had been 'dangerous' then they would not have let you take it away in the first place).
Clearly that does not include trips to the shops etc.
Yah bad old law breaker you ;D ;D ;D ;D :y
Legally I broke no laws ... as I didn't drive it she did !!! ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
(oK to be pedantic .. I only drove it back from the (failed) test and to the pre-booked retest)
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Lol, you wait till I see her next! ;D ;D ;D ;D :y
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OK, different sceanrio (forgetting if MOTer was right/wrong).
I present my car with a month to go...
Fails on Air Freshener...
Is it still unlawful to drive?
Yes, until you remove the air freshener.
Ah, but does it need the retest (post air freshener removal), before it becomes road legal again?
No as the defect has been addressed, the MOT would be valid until the current one expired.
What about gorging the testers eyes out with the scissors he offered to remove offending item. Is that a fail?
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A fail is a fail, simple as that, it has been deemed by the qualified tester to not be of a standard capable of passing an MOT. If it had been an advisory then it would have been different.
Remember that you can drive a car with 'failures' to a from an MOT station to a booked appointment OR a place of repair (remembering that if it had been 'dangerous' then they would not have let you take it away in the first place).
Clearly that does not include trips to the shops etc.
Yah bad old law breaker you ;D ;D ;D ;D :y
Legally I broke no laws ... as I didn't drive it she did !!! ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
(oK to be pedantic .. I only drove it back from the (failed) test and to the pre-booked retest)
Bloody Pikeys - never obey the laws of the land :P ;D
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Depnds if it was given a failure which prevented its use on the road (which I am guessing you did not get as they would probably not let you take the car away)
However, its still illegal as although you still have an MOT you are driving a vehicle in an unroadworthy condition until ALL failure items are repaired.
That would be my take on it as well,once the repairs have been carried out the old mot (if any time remaining) would suffice up until the retest was carried out.
any fail however marginal is still a fail therefore rendering the vehicle unroadworthy in the eyes of the law
MOT <> Roadworthy
Some of the MOT test points are nothing to do with safety
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Such as ?
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Depnds if it was given a failure which prevented its use on the road (which I am guessing you did not get as they would probably not let you take the car away)
However, its still illegal as although you still have an MOT you are driving a vehicle in an unroadworthy condition until ALL failure items are repaired.
That would be my take on it as well,once the repairs have been carried out the old mot (if any time remaining) would suffice up until the retest was carried out.
any fail however marginal is still a fail therefore rendering the vehicle unroadworthy in the eyes of the law
MOT <> Roadworthy
Some of the MOT test points are nothing to do with safety
Nobody mentioned safety, roadworthy is the name of the game here and the committed offence relates to driving a car in an unroadworthy state. :y
Simples!
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Whats the difference between roadworthiness and safety ?
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Whats the difference between roadworthiness and safety ?
seatbelts etc - nothing to do with roadworthy
a lot to do with safety
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Depends on the definition of roadworthiness I suppose.
Worthy to be on the road, including any possible events which may take place on the road,including an accident ?......in which case seatbelts would come under roadworthiness. :-/
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Depends on the definition of roadworthiness I suppose.
Worthy to be on the road, including any possible events which may take place on the road,including an accident ?......in which case seatbelts would come under roadworthiness. :-/
An MOT checks for roadworthyness, not safety as most of the safety was designed in at day 1.
Of course, a vehicle in a roadworthy condition may be safer than one that isnt
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Makes sense. :y.............sort of. ;D
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Whats the difference between roadworthiness and safety ?
Emmisions
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Depends on the definition of roadworthiness I suppose.
Worthy to be on the road, including any possible events which may take place on the road,including an accident ?......in which case seatbelts would come under roadworthiness. :-/
And on that basis all the old cars with no seatbelts at all would have to be taken off the road ;) (But they're not - they're roadworthy .. but arguably not very safe)
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Depends on the definition of roadworthiness I suppose.
Worthy to be on the road, including any possible events which may take place on the road,including an accident ?......in which case seatbelts would come under roadworthiness. :-/
And on that basis all the old cars with no seatbelts at all would have to be taken off the road ;) (But they're not - they're roadworthy .. but arguably not very safe)
:y :y :y :y
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Whats the difference between roadworthiness and safety ?
Emmisions
How on earth do you work that one out?
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I think thats more of a compromise situation than safety/roadworthiness definition.
When the seatbelt law was introduced it would have been political suicide to ban all the cars without seatbelts.
Nowadays they are few and far between - classic/veteran/vintage, covering very few miles in most cases. So in reality, an exception to the norm has been made for them.
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Whats the difference between roadworthiness and safety ?
Emmisions
I would imagine it would come under the heading of safety of the general public. Im no tree hugger, but we wouldnt want all vehicles pumping out the levels of pollution which used to come out of them in the 50,s/60,s would we ?
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I think thats more of a compromise situation than safety/roadworthiness definition.
When the seatbelt law was introduced it would have been political suicide to ban all the cars without seatbelts.
Nowadays they are few and far between - classic/veteran/vintage, covering very few miles in most cases. So in reality, an exception to the norm has been made for them.
hence my statement that safety is designed in and the MOT checks roadworthyness
It applies to more than seat belts, its brakes, suspension, crumple zones, airbags, side imapct bars etc etc etc.
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What constitutes roadworthy is defined when the vehicle was first registered, so if there was no requirement for seatbelts and emissions limits, so be it, although emissions testing was introduced retrospectively for some cars (at a level that they should easily have been able to pass) the general assumption is that you don't retrospectively impose requirements on older vehicles.
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Whats the difference between roadworthiness and safety ?
Emmisions
How on earth do you work that one out?
A car with high emmisions at idle would fail MT but not unsafe due to that
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A car with a number plate bulb out would also fail but its not unsafe....
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A car with a number plate bulb out would also fail but its not unsafe....
But what about driving at night? ::)
I think with all these things, its just a case of if you get caught. I accidentally let an MOT expire for almost a month, genuinely forgot. Never challenged, no wonder people don't bother.
Back in Brackley, your lucky to see a copper once a year, even then its a Panda car and not tricked up on with ANPR
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A car with a number plate bulb out would also fail but its not unsafe....
But what about driving at night? ::)
I think with all these things, its just a case of if you get caught. I accidentally let an MOT expire for almost a month, genuinely forgot. Never challenged, no wonder people don't bother.
Back in Brackley, your lucky to see a copper once a year, even then its a Panda car and not tricked up on with ANPR
Still not unsafe as its not classed as primary lighting, its there only to allow identification of the car via its number plate at night
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ANPR will only Flag if no current MOT and its a Low priority alert it gives off (may vary by police force)
ie A MIDAS alert (No insurance) will be priority one!
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ANPR will only Flag if no current MOT and its a Low priority alert it gives off (may vary by police force)
ie A MIDAS alert (No insurance) will be priority one!
Thats the question really .... is
MOT fail = no current MOT
on the "system", even though the last MOT certificate is still in date ... as MOT fail means unroadworthy it would seem.......
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ANPR will only Flag if no current MOT and its a Low priority alert it gives off (may vary by police force)
ie A MIDAS alert (No insurance) will be priority one!
Thats the question really .... is
MOT fail = no current MOT
on the "system", even though the last MOT certificate is still in date ... as MOT fail means unroadworthy it would seem.......
I can't see it updating that fast, I remember watching Road Wars they tugged a car, ANPR pinged a drugs alert. Turns out lady bought it about 2 months ago and had no record. If we are talking a week or two even days, even how rubbish the DVLA are, I don't think it would alert.
Problems you would have i think is having a prag on the way back, insurance might use it as an excuse not to pay out
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It will update the day after the MOT expired! the Siemens MOT system will update just like MID
PNC data this is the database the drugs info is on, the marker will stay until its removed by someone so if you had a drugs marker they pull you realise its changed hands they will remove the marker.
it will alert but at the end of the day its a non endorsable offence dealt with a £30 PCN as apposed to no insurance 6 points Section 165 & £200 fine plus recovery costs
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It will update the day after the MOT expired! the Siemens MOT system will update just like MID
PNC data this is the database the drugs info is on, the marker will stay until its removed by someone so if you had a drugs marker they pull you realise its changed hands they will remove the marker.
it will alert but at the end of the day its a non endorsable offence dealt with a £30 PCN as apposed to no insurance 6 points Section 165 & £200 fine plus recovery costs
Is the "expiry" date the original certificate expiry date, or the day the "fail" is issued ???.
This is the crux of the matter ... does a "fail" invalidate/supercede/overrule an existing "in date" MOT ???
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It would be the current valid one from last year as far as ANPR goes
I do understand your point and in the event of a serious accident if the police investigated the vehicle and found it had failed an MOT a few days previously i wouldn't like to be facing those sorts of charges but you say the serious defects have been rectified though which i would think in my opinion you would be ok in that eventuality aswell
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It would be the current valid one from last year as far as ANPR goes
So, does the Siemens MOT System update as and when an MOT is carried out (or a day after, say?) If so, does it update when a 'Fail' has been presented also (if the MOT had been carried out a couple of weeks before the MOT expiry date)? :-/
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it doesn't know about fails it just knows if a vehicle holds a Valid MOT if it doesn't it will Generate an alert informing the end user of the fact
i know this is true with no tax if it sees you about with no tax it can inform the DVLA which will persue you via the magistrates court for failing to pay VED you don't necessarily get pulled over you will get a court fine if you don't get pulled though so same result i suppose (this may vary by police force)