Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: nixoro on 14 November 2006, 09:33:36
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Having had abit of time spare on sunday I managed to have a look at my exhaust and have confirmed my exhaust manifold is blowing.
You can hear a tapping noise coming from that area.
I am looking to remove the exhaust manifold on saturday to rethread a couple of known knackered stud threads. Looking to get a tap and die set on saturday to sort this problem.
I was thinking what is the recommended to use for refitting the studs loctite or something similar also I am looking to change the gasket if it knackered what sort of sealant is recommended as I have some proper exhaust sealant but not sure its ok to use on the manifold to head join.
I assume that if any of the current studs have snapped its going to be a bugger to drill them out.
This job has been needing to be done for a while and so looking to get it sorted.
Any tips for removal or refitting would be much appreciated.
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Having had abit of time spare on sunday I managed to have a look at my exhaust and have confirmed my exhaust manifold is blowing.
You can hear a tapping noise coming from that area.
I am looking to remove the exhaust manifold on saturday to rethread a couple of known knackered stud threads. Looking to get a tap and die set on saturday to sort this problem.
I was thinking what is the recommended to use for refitting the studs loctite or something similar also I am looking to change the gasket if it knackered what sort of sealant is recommended as I have some proper exhaust sealant but not sure its ok to use on the manifold to head join.
I assume that if any of the current studs have snapped its going to be a bugger to drill them out.
This job has been needing to be done for a while and so looking to get it sorted.
Any tips for removal or refitting would be much appreciated.
I'f i'm correct the best locktite can survive up to 160degrees which is notheing compared to the 600+ that the manifolds go through. The gasket needs changing anyway so no need for seelant on it. clean the surfaces well. skim the manifold(at a machineshop) and you sould be fine.
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You dont need sealent, use a genuine (multi layer metal) gasket and flatten the manifold face as already said, you can actualy do this using a flat surface and some coarse emery as it does not need to be to accurate.......also check it for cracks.
New studs and nuts would be recommended but, I wouldn't locktite them in.....
You might find it easier to remove/slacken the nuts/studs with the engine hot (mind your fingers!) and prey you dont have any broken ones.
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Thankyou for both the responses
I am liking the Idea of the Emery paper on the manifold tip.
I am also thinking if I am going to be using a tap and die kit chances are I will need thicker studs do Vx do thicker studs or could I get away with using ordinary thicker bolts.
Another thing is the gasket I actually replaced it a while back when I did my clutch hence knowing about the missing studs left it too long really :-[ anyway would it be possible to reuse it or do they become unusable once removed, and so new one needed for refit.
Fingers crossed that none have snapped.
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Hi there,
an idea I read somewhere recently, was if a stud snaps off flush, why not try welding onto the end of it. This may give you enough to grip with a wrench and loosen. You should of course disconnect battery, alternator, (and the ECU?) to prevent the welding current damaging things.
As they say in Scotland, "don't force it, use a bigger hammer" ;D
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Absolute doddle if you use freeze spray, such as ambersil or loctite rust freeze/crack , or what ever its called !
As far as welding on to the end of broken stud, well FORGET IT unless you have a TIG plant / welding set !
You are far more likely to do more damage to the surrounding area using arc or MIG !
Gas tourch might be OK, but a naked flame on an engine urmmmmmmmmmm !!
You will also find that the VERY elevated heat put in to the broken stud and surrounding area will 99% of the time release the broken stud due to expansion of the metals etc ,and also the cracking of the oxides ( rust etc )
Also remember EVERY metal rusts or oxides, doesnt have to be red rust !!! Also there's galvanic reaction to contend with ( reaction between two disimilar metals, with moisture /water acting as the electrolite ! )
Galvanic reaction is a right barstewart, and far worse to contend with than rust alone !
I have known galvanic reaction to absolutly seize metals together and needing literally hundreds of tons of pressure to part them !
Hence the reason to always put a VERY slight smear of copper grease on bolts and studs especially when screwing them in to a disimilar metal such as steel studs in to an ally head or cast block !
The copper grease will slow down the galvanic reaction A LOT !
mARK
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So freeze spray is the stuff to use eh!! Same principle as heat I suppose but no chance of fire :y Is this the same stuff you can get for plumbing applications?
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Unfortuneatly NOT !
Both the Loctite and Ambersil products obviously freeze, but lubricate too ! ( high quality penitrating oils )
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Here's a link that explains how Ambersil Rust Flash works
http://www.manufacturingtalk.com/news/crn/crn101.html
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Looks interesting. Anybody know where it can be bought?
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Hi Nixoro, I had a broken manifold stud on the gls but was fortunate enough to have it out of the car when I replaced it ;) The manifold on the 2ltr isn't too bad to remove, undo flange to front pipe, remove heat shield on the manifold to access the bolts and undo the metal breather pipe that snakes around the rear breather pipe. The nuts are reasonably accessible and hopefully you'll have enough room to drill out any broken studs too. I'd recommend renewing the manifold gasket as it will probably have been damaged where it is leaking. The holes in the manifold allow for a bigger stud or bolt to be fitted, should you need to drill and re tap up a size.
Cheers Jim
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Hi Nixoro, I had a broken manifold stud on the gls but was fortunate enough to have it out of the car when I replaced it ;) The manifold on the 2ltr isn't too bad to remove, undo flange to front pipe, remove heat shield on the manifold to access the bolts and undo the metal breather pipe that snakes around the rear breather pipe. The nuts are reasonably accessible and hopefully you'll have enough room to drill out any broken studs too. I'd recommend renewing the manifold gasket as it will probably have been damaged where it is leaking. The holes in the manifold allow for a bigger stud or bolt to be fitted, should you need to drill and re tap up a size.
Cheers Jim
Cheers Jim for the advice its much appreciated.
I have removed the cat and the manifold before back when I did my clutch so I have a fair idea of whats going on, my main concern was whether I could get away with using the current gasket or should I buy new. I am just hoping that there are no nasty surprises other than the already known when I come to remove it on saturday.
Sad thing is I have left it so long now and now want to get it sorted, would you believe that back when I got the car I actually had the exhaust manifold replaced but as the work is out of warranty now the garage wont touch it. So now its for me to sort out. And since then its never been back as I know for a fact they messed one of the stud threads up only when i did the clutch I had a look only to find one of the studs floating about on the manifold god only knows how it has stayed on there for all that time.
*edit* forgot to mention when I refitted the manifold when I did my clutch I obviously knew of one missing stud but the rest were torqued into place and so there didnt appear to be any leak, granted I knew it was a weakness though that could return at anytime.
Still bring on saturday, hopefully it will go ok.
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Here's a link that explains how Ambersil Rust Flash works
http://www.manufacturingtalk.com/news/crn/crn101.html
Cheers for the recommendation if I get any problems I may have to seek out some of this I assume this cant be bought at halfords can anyone suggest where it could be bought from.
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wot size studs are on the 2.0l block m8 or m10 studs..
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M8 x 25 studs mate
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cheers bud nice 1
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Let us know how you get on with the studs NIXORO , I'm sure all of us with no experience of removeing a manifold will be interested :y Should do this job myself on my 2.5V6 but too busy and too scared at the moment :o ;D
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Let us know how you get on with the studs NIXORO , I'm sure all of us with no experience of removeing a manifold will be interested :y Should do this job myself on my 2.5V6 but too busy and too scared at the moment :o ;D
Cheers Eliteman Steve I shall post up how things go on Monday when back in work, the 2.0 manifold should be ok to do its alot less involved than on the v6 models but all the same can have a massive affect.
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Well had one pig of a weekend disconnected the cat on saturday and in the process sheered a bolt.
Bought a manifold gasket from a local parts shop only to be given one for a daewoo x20sed engine great
Removed all the bits from the top and removed the manifold to confirm oil was not being pumped into the cat but did find my rocker cover is leaking from the front and oil was running down the thermostat housing and had seeped into the manifold gasket. Manifold was definately blowing
Refitted everything back minus repairing the sheered nut started her up and it sounded like a right bag of shite.
left the car overnight and got back on it yesterday.
Removed all the bits from the top again, got under the car to disconnect the cat and then moved onto removing the manifold found that definately one stud had snapped and was nice and snug in the block.
With the manifold out of the car I then drilled out the sheered bolt and christened my tap and die kit which not only pushed the remainder of the bolt out but also cleaned the thread.
I then used the tool on the head itself and it worked a treat it even cleaned a thread I thought was knackered, so for the moment it would be held in place by 9 studs which is better than 8 out of 10.
I thought to myself its not worth refitting a new gasket for the time being as I need to get the rocker cover sorted first so I refitted the current gasket after giving it a good clean with spirits.
Refitted the manifold again using 9 studs instead of 8 refitted the cat and now i actually have back pressure and more poke from the engine.
Ideally I would have liked to have removed the snapped stud but getting a drill in was never gonna happen. I plan to redo the manifold and get the stud drilled out and the thread recut before fitting a new gasket and I will also be getting the rocker cover redone.
Now on the look out for either a right angled drill or a snake piece that goes in the end of a drill which should make life a little easier.
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Well done nixoro, life's never easy is it.
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Well done nixoro, life's never easy is it.
Well I'm certainly feeling the effects of the weekend managed to get plenty of battle wounds all over my hands mainly my knuckles.
I am abit gutted though I didn't manage to get the other stud drilled out but on the other hand I am pleased my car is usable for work now.
And even better proved the piston rings or valve seals are still good without having to remove the head. (No signs of oil in the exhaust outlets and in manifold)
The oil in the exhaust has been abit of a worry but I still have time to get it sorted before its next MOT next year which is one saving grace. New cat eventually for me :)
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Did the stud snap flush? Had the same problem with my Landy a few years back. A neighbour got out a very small cold chisel (about the diameter of a pencil) squirted the broken stud with WD-40 and just gave it a tap round with it. Came out a treat. It was jammed in solid before with bi-metallic corrosion.
As to greasing bolts with copper grease before fitting them, just be aware that lubricating bolts changes the torque required for setting them. Torque settings are determined by the type of bolt, application and lubrication. You could end up over-torquing a bolt leading to pre-mature failure.
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Did the stud snap flush? Had the same problem with my Landy a few years back. A neighbour got out a very small cold chisel (about the diameter of a pencil) squirted the broken stud with WD-40 and just gave it a tap round with it. Came out a treat. It was jammed in solid before with bi-metallic corrosion.
As to greasing bolts with copper grease before fitting them, just be aware that lubricating bolts changes the torque required for setting them. Torque settings are determined by the type of bolt, application and lubrication. You could end up over-torquing a bolt leading to pre-mature failure.
No I was unfortunate that it snapped near the end of the bolt inside the head so nothing is sticking out, so not sure really what my next action will be, at the moment I think i will see about getting a drill snake type jobby for better access and gauge the depth and try drilling it out, but I think I will leave it a little while now and keep an eye on it.
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Well done mate in doing your exhaust manifold.
If your determind to get the broken stud out of the block and DO IT in situ, then you can always use the manifold as a guide !
As you aew well aware, to drill a broken stud out you NEED to be smack on centre of the stud when you drill i to it !
Having a little sleeve made up ( do you know anyone with a lathe ) that slips in to the hole in the exhaust manifold with a 3 or 4 mm hole down the centre of this sleeve will allow you to guide a drill smack on centre in to the broken stud ! Depth can be measured NOT GUESSED, by obtaining a new stud ( which you need anyhow) and just measuring the depth of thread !
As far as being careful of torque setting or values on lubricated bolts, you have to use your common sence here ! A small amount of lubrication will not SIGNIFFICANTLY affect torque value, as these are affected anyhow do to dis=similar metals being used , such as steel bolt in to alloy or cast iron !
Lubricating bolts etc , with a smear of copper grease has many more pro's than con's , due to the fact that dis=assembly at a later date is made so much easier due to the fact that the copper grease slows down , very much, slows down Galvanic reaction between dis=similar metals !
Also bear in mind that replacing your studs and bolts with stainless replacements is even worse than lubricating steel bolts etc !
Stainless has a LOWER tensile strength, and has significantly more drag / friction than steel, so torque values are useless !
Also dont be fooled in to thinking stainless fixings dont rust or react with other metals !
EVERY metal will react ( galvanic reaction) when screwed/ fixed or partnered with another metal, although some pairings will be A LOT slower than others to show reaction !
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Well done mate in doing your exhaust manifold.
If your determind to get the broken stud out of the block and DO IT in situ, then you can always use the manifold as a guide !
As you aew well aware, to drill a broken stud out you NEED to be smack on centre of the stud when you drill i to it !
Having a little sleeve made up ( do you know anyone with a lathe ) that slips in to the hole in the exhaust manifold with a 3 or 4 mm hole down the centre of this sleeve will allow you to guide a drill smack on centre in to the broken stud ! Depth can be measured NOT GUESSED, by obtaining a new stud ( which you need anyhow) and just measuring the depth of thread !
As far as being careful of torque setting or values on lubricated bolts, you have to use your common sence here ! A small amount of lubrication will not SIGNIFFICANTLY affect torque value, as these are affected anyhow do to dis=similar metals being used , such as steel bolt in to alloy or cast iron !
Lubricating bolts etc , with a smear of copper grease has many more pro's than con's , due to the fact that dis=assembly at a later date is made so much easier due to the fact that the copper grease slows down , very much, slows down Galvanic reaction between dis=similar metals !
Also bear in mind that replacing your studs and bolts with stainless replacements is even worse than lubricating steel bolts etc !
Stainless has a LOWER tensile strength, and has significantly more drag / friction than steel, so torque values are useless !
Also dont be fooled in to thinking stainless fixings dont rust or react with other metals !
EVERY metal will react ( galvanic reaction) when screwed/ fixed or partnered with another metal, although some pairings will be A LOT slower than others to show reaction !
Funnily enough my dad was thinking the same thing about creating a sleeve for the drill bit to go into for drilling out that stud.
As for torque values on refitting I just used the values from the Haynes now whether these are wrong or right they seemed to work for me.
I am keen to get the other stud removed but all in good time, as with all things if you bodge it it can open a whole can of worms.
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Was the manifold flat or did it need adjusting?
Plus, did you use a Vaux multi layer metal gasket....
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Exactly mate, careful planning is the best way to go !
Just watch the depth you drill to, someone on this site, all be it a while ago, so cant remember who it was, drilled too deep and struck oil !!! :'(
If you can not get a good line on the broken stud with engine in situ, then dont push the issue ! You will simply just have to put up with having a broken stud or remove head from engine ! 5 minutes bodging can lead to many hours of tears ! :'(
I know taking head of the car seems the long way around to do things, but often the longer or harder way is best !
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Was the manifold flat or did it need adjusting?
Plus, did you use a Vaux multi layer metal gasket....
The gasket I used was the multi layer vx metal gasket.
The actual manifold itself I rubbed down with some emery paper and so the mating surface was flat.
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Exactly mate, careful planning is the best way to go !
Just watch the depth you drill to, someone on this site, all be it a while ago, so cant remember who it was, drilled too deep and struck oil !!! :'(
If you can not get a good line on the broken stud with engine in situ, then dont push the issue ! You will simply just have to put up with having a broken stud or remove head from engine ! 5 minutes bodging can lead to many hours of tears ! :'(
I know taking head of the car seems the long way around to do things, but often the longer or harder way is best !
I remember reading that a while back, i am not to keen on the idea of head removal as people tell of it becoming a weakness but to me if its done right then all should be ok.
I think in due course I will try drilling it out in situ but for the time being its better than having no car to use.
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I'm told there is a Company or Companies that are mobile stud drillers !!!!
I know for a fact that some VX dealerships use them, but its just finding out who there are !!!
Might be and idea if you can identify them, for a small cost, you get a job thats done right, if the fluuk it up, you just sue the arse of of them ;D
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I'm told there is a Company or Companies that are mobile stud drillers !!!!
I know for a fact that some VX dealerships use them, but its just finding out who there are !!!
Might be and idea if you can identify them, for a small cost, you get a job thats done right, if the fluuk it up, you just sue the arse of of them ;D
I like the sound of that shall have to do some research ;D :y
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Just make sure you ask for mobile stud drillers and not mobile studs , if you ring directory inquiries ;D ;D
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Just make sure you ask for mobile stud drillers and not mobile studs , if you ring directory inquiries ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D pmsl
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Hey Nixoro , it might be an idea to check out SCREWFIX they sell loads of good stuff and may well have a right-angled drill for not too much dosh . You can find them on the net and if your order is over 45 quid they deliver the next day for free!! :y Use them a lot for building stuff but they've got an automotive section as well which sells some good stuff .
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Hey Nixoro , it might be an idea to check out SCREWFIX they sell loads of good stuff and may well have a right-angled drill for not too much dosh . You can find them on the net and if your order is over 45 quid they deliver the next day for free!! :y Use them a lot for building stuff but they've got an automotive section as well which sells some good stuff .
Ahhhhh, but have you got a screwfix T-shirt 8-) they don't give them to anyone you know ::)
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Hey Nixoro , it might be an idea to check out SCREWFIX they sell loads of good stuff and may well have a right-angled drill for not too much dosh . You can find them on the net and if your order is over 45 quid they deliver the next day for free!! :y Use them a lot for building stuff but they've got an automotive section as well which sells some good stuff .
Ahhhhh, but have you got a screwfix T-shirt 8-) they don't give them to anyone you know ::)
No but I've got a Screw U T-shirt ;D ;D ;D ;D . But on a serious note my wife thought screwfix was a dating agency!! ;)
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Hey Nixoro , it might be an idea to check out SCREWFIX they sell loads of good stuff and may well have a right-angled drill for not too much dosh . You can find them on the net and if your order is over 45 quid they deliver the next day for free!! :y Use them a lot for building stuff but they've got an automotive section as well which sells some good stuff .
Ahhhhh, but have you got a screwfix T-shirt 8-) they don't give them to anyone you know ::)
No but I've got a Screw U T-shirt ;D ;D ;D ;D . But on a serious note my wife thought screwfix was a dating agency!! ;)
;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww hahahahhahaha excellent !
Bit like my wife had mirrors put up on the bedroom ceiling to watch her self have headaches ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hey Nixoro , it might be an idea to check out SCREWFIX they sell loads of good stuff and may well have a right-angled drill for not too much dosh . You can find them on the net and if your order is over 45 quid they deliver the next day for free!! :y Use them a lot for building stuff but they've got an automotive section as well which sells some good stuff .
Hi Eliteman Steve
Cheers for the suggestion have bought stuff from them before but never thought of checking there website for what i'm after. :y
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Hey Nixoro , it might be an idea to check out SCREWFIX they sell loads of good stuff and may well have a right-angled drill for not too much dosh . You can find them on the net and if your order is over 45 quid they deliver the next day for free!! :y Use them a lot for building stuff but they've got an automotive section as well which sells some good stuff .
Hi Eliteman Steve
Cheers for the suggestion have bought stuff from them before but never thought of checking there website for what i'm after. :y
Hey Nixoro , was leafing through their catalogue and saw a 90 degree chuck adaptor for 24 quid , might be right up your street ;)! Would post piccy but I'm not a computer whizz , catalogue number 39590-84 if you're interested , just punch in the numbers on their wesite :y
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Hi Nixoro
I am watching this with great interest as my 2.2 CDX has a broken stud (front lower) and it is also flush with the head :'(. I only know this because I found the broken bit in the bottom of the engine bay when giving it its first good clean. At the moment its not leaking as far as I can guage but its only a matter of time.....I have researched this alot on the net and it seems you are either lucky and its easy to get out by tapping the remaining part round and out with a very fine centre punch or you are unlucky and have to rely on some fairly drastic drilling or welding measures. Mobile stud drillers really does seem the easy way out , if you find one please let me know .Other than that all the best and I hope you are lucky with it. :y
Rich
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(http://www.screwfix.com/sfd/i/cat/38/p4469438_l.jpg)
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(http://www.screwfix.com/sfd/i/cat/38/p4469438_l.jpg)
But where from?
Oh! I see, Screwfix.....
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(http://www.screwfix.com/sfd/i/cat/38/p4469438_l.jpg)
But where from?
Oh! I see, Screwfix.....
Cheers for the suggestion guys
I haven't seen this type of adaptor before the only ones I managed to find on the screwfix site were the snake type one that attach to the end of the drill.
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(http://www.screwfix.com/sfd/i/cat/38/p4469438_l.jpg)
But where from?
Oh! I see, Screwfix.....
Cheers for the suggestion guys
I haven't seen this type of adaptor before the only ones I managed to find on the screwfix site were the snake type one that attach to the end of the drill.
Machine Mart do a cheaper one, see page 283 of their latest catalogue - £17.61 (inc VAT).
Won't display off their web site as it's a new addition.
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Hi Nixoro
I am watching this with great interest as my 2.2 CDX has a broken stud (front lower) and it is also flush with the head :'(. I only know this because I found the broken bit in the bottom of the engine bay when giving it its first good clean. At the moment its not leaking as far as I can guage but its only a matter of time.....I have researched this alot on the net and it seems you are either lucky and its easy to get out by tapping the remaining part round and out with a very fine centre punch or you are unlucky and have to rely on some fairly drastic drilling or welding measures. Mobile stud drillers really does seem the easy way out , if you find one please let me know .Other than that all the best and I hope you are lucky with it. :y
Rich
Unfortunately having been looking I have been unable to find any Mobile Exhaust manifold stud removal peeps, the most I have found is Many Many guides on how to remove them yourself which eventually will be the way I may go not unless Vx want to do it for me.
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Nixoro, taking car to VX, my well result in them calling out a mobile stud driller !!!
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Nixoro, taking car to VX, my well result in them calling out a mobile stud driller !!!
I wonder who they get out to do the job not unless i'm in the wrong area,Yell.com is next to useless when finding stuff anyways.
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Nixoro, have a look for wire erosion, or spark erosion services in your area !!
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Nixoro, have a look for wire erosion, or spark erosion services in your area !!
Cheers for the tip shall have a look now.