Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: ianrobbo on 07 November 2006, 18:24:21
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Guys,
First post on this site, though I had a few on the 'other one'.
My brother-in-law has a 2000 MY 2.5V6 auto facelift estate, and has big problems. He was driving to work yesterday, car started juddering, lack of power, running rough, ticking noise from engine. Limped to work, got RAC out, they took him to a Vauxhall dealer who has diagnosed no compression on No.5 cylinder, probably a valve problem (don't specify inlet or exhaust, but that's what you get for £180).
They quoted him a minimum of £2500 to fix it! Irrevelevant whether it's a fair price or not, he just can't afford it.
I plan to go to his in London this weekend, and take the cylinder head off. My own Omega is a 4 pot, so I have a few q's for you V6 experts:
1. Has anyone any experience of sticky valves/dropped valves/broken springs etc on the V6 engine?
2. I appreciate that there is poor access, is removal of 1 cylinder head a practical proposition, or should I seriously consider taking the engine out?
3. When (if) I sort out the cylinder head, I will need a locking tool kit for the timing belt - may I borrow/hire one from anyone?
All opinions/advice welcome!
Ta,
Ian
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Welcome to site :)
Heads can be done without removing engine.
Robin Hood was doing a DVD on head changes, may be worth contacting him for a copy, even if he hasn't fully edited yet.
I wouldn't be surprised if cambelt tensioner had failed, causing the problem in first place, so replace belt and tensioners. You will need locking/timing kit to retime the cams.
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I know for a fact he had the belt & tensioners changed back in the summer, so I think that isn't too likely (although anything's possible).
Ian
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I know for a fact he had the belt & tensioners changed back in the summer, so I think that isn't too likely (although anything's possible).
Ian
The garage that did it, did they use a timing kit? If it was back street mechanic, probably not... ...which may explain the current situation.
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I know for a fact he had the belt & tensioners changed back in the summer, so I think that isn't too likely (although anything's possible).
Ian
The garage that did it, did they use a timing kit? If it was back street mechanic, probably not... ...which may explain the current situation.
No idea - I'll find out at the weekend.
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Do not attempt to replace belt without locking kit ;)
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Do not attempt to replace belt without locking kit ;)
Or, by extension, install cylinder head.
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Guys,
Thanks for the advice about the locking kit, if you read my original post you'll see I'm already aware of the need for one, what I really need is advice on valve problems! The timing belt is still intact, the tensioners haven't failed, the engine was still running (albeit roughly - no compression on No.5 cylinder).
Does anyone have any experience of dropped/sticking/burnt valves, broken springs, maybe even bad hyd tappets?
Ian
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Soz, can't help with the last bit, hopefully one of the engine gurus will be along shortly...
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I suppose it could be a bad follower or even a broken cam (being the last cylinder). Haven't heard of any problems along those lines yet, and don't know any magic checks for that before taking a bunch of stuff apart.
I'm not an expert on these cars, but on these forums it sounds like the only valve problems are when the camshaft failed before, everything looked alright, and then a short while later it started playing up and turned out that the guides were cracked when the cambelt went.
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I'd take the cam cover off first and have a watch while turning the engine over with a ratchet on the crankshaft. Also take the plug out and have a look at it, see if anything has fallen off. No 5 is drivers side at the back in case you were wondering.
Loss of compression can be due to rings or valves but presumably they put some oil into the cylinder to check if it was rings.
Some pics of under the bonnet with bits missing here if it helps:
http://www.infohitsystems.ltd.uk/Gallery/dirwrap_photo.sh?path=Car
Best of luck.
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Do you know any of the history of the car?
The only valve problem I have ever known of was on my own car.....some muppet had re-built the cylinder heads after the belt broke/jumped some teeth and didn't sort the guides. As a result mine ate a piece of guide that came loose....the result, a slightly bent valve!
1-3-5 cylinder head is a bit easier to remove and access is a little easier than the passenger one.
If it was me, the first thing I would do is pop the cambelt cover off (PM Robin Hood and get the cambelt DVD as it will be of use for this job nad a bargain at 3 quid delivered) and wind the crank around to TDC to allow a basic check fo the belt timing to be done. When this is checked, you can then set the crank to 60 deg before TDC and remove the belt (its now safe as no valves make contact with pistons).
Then follow the cam cover gasket maintenance guide to get the drivers side cam cover off. Remove the cam belt backing plate and progressively remove the cam bearing caps to pop the cams out.
Before popping the head off, pull the followers out one by one and try to press the centre button in (its on the bottom side)
As for sticking valves, never known them on the V6...plus snapped cam...highly unlikely
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Should have also said, I would do a compression test myself first......
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Mark,
Good point about the compression test. I'll have to see what state the engine is in when I get there, I know the Vauxhall dealers have removed some bits including the cambelt cover & rocker cover, don't think they got further than that.
As regards the car's history, he's had the car about 3 years, bought it from a car supermarket with about 50,000 up, has about 100,000 now. Nothing untoward has happened in the time he's had it, and I think it had full history when he got it. Dunno if anyone managed to mess it up before he got it.
Ian
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As Mark said...these engines are generally bombproof. One would assume a correlation between cam blet / tensioners etc and recent problems.
My dilemma would be ( and it is with my veccy) will it run long enough ( without further damage) to do a compression test?
Also removing the heads is not a huge problem - can be done in situ
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Been up looking at the brov-in-laws car all weekend, timing was spot on, delts & tensioners were all good.
Took the head off, and found a broken spring on one of the No.5 inlet valves.
I'll post a picture here if someone tells me how.
Anybody seen broken springs on a V6 before?
Any advice onwhere to buy a new one?
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To post photos, see this link...
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1152786884
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Picture of the business end of the cylinder head, removed, with camshaft still fitted
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/ianrobbo/Keithscar009.jpg)
Picture of the valve spring
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/ianrobbo/Keithscar010.jpg)
First time putting a picture on, hope it works!
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Well I have never seen that happen......is the guide ok, no slop with the valve fitted.
Spring is a Vaux part although some on here may have a spare kicking about.
Give that head a dam good clean to.........paint stripper is very effective at carbon and varnish removal.
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Valve & guide good, although I'll take the valve to work with me tomorrow and check it for straightness on the surface plate.
Very very very lucky that the collets stayed on, I didn't need to compress the spring at all to get them off, just picked them off with my long nose pliers. If they'd come off it would have been a different story, he probably drove it for 10 miles or so running on 5.
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That head is VERY dirty....has it ever had an oil change ;)
Or has it had some dam additive put in it....
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I have some used springs if you want one, PM your address. Also spare valve if it turns out to be slightly bent.
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I have some used springs if you want one, PM your address. Also spare valve if it turns out to be slightly bent.
Thanks for that, PM on its way
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Just thought I'd close this one off, finished the brother-in-laws car at last, had plenty of delays for weather/taking kids swimming/dog been ill etc. etc. etc, thought I'd never get it done.
Thanks to everyone who gave their advice, it's all appreciated, and especially to Matchless for the replacement valve spring.
Snags I had - getting the flare nuts undone on the oil pipes which go into the block near the filter, lots of skinned knuckles. Just couldn't do it. Eventually, borrowed a 19mm flare nut crows foot off one of the boys at work and it was a doddle. Goes to show, its a lot easier if you've got the right tools. Mind you, it shouldn't be necessary to have to struggle with seized nuts on a MY2000 car.
The oil pipe banjo bolts which go into the oil cooler - I didn't put the seals on properly, had a massive oil leak when I first started it up, had to have the plenum/intake manifold/intake flange off again, which was a bind. My fault for not taking enough care.
Nipped the LH knock sensor wire, between the thermostat housing cooling pipe & and the rear timing belt cover. Didn't nip it hard, but it's a shielded co-ax type thing, and surprisingly delicate. When I figured it out, just spliced a new piece of cable in.
Camshaft timing wasn't a bad job at all, in fact I was a bit sceptical about needing the locking/setting kit, as it went on so easily, but when I checked it at the end with the gauge, it was actually one tooth out on the crankshaft pulley, so yes, £100 well spent.
So now its all done, cost about £300 in parts, plus my time (for nothing - I hope the brother-in law appreciates it!) and that includes a locking kit. Compare that to the £2500 he was quoted by Vauxhall.
It's a lot less daunting going into a big job like that if you know you can go somewhere for advice - so once again thanks to you guys and keep up the good work.
Ian
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Just thought I'd close this one off, finished the brother-in-laws car at last, had plenty of delays for weather/taking kids swimming/dog been ill etc. etc. etc, thought I'd never get it done.
Thanks to everyone who gave their advice, it's all appreciated, and especially to Matchless for the replacement valve spring.
Snags I had - getting the flare nuts undone on the oil pipes which go into the block near the filter, lots of skinned knuckles. Just couldn't do it. Eventually, borrowed a 19mm flare nut crows foot off one of the boys at work and it was a doddle. Goes to show, its a lot easier if you've got the right tools. Mind you, it shouldn't be necessary to have to struggle with seized nuts on a MY2000 car.
The oil pipe banjo bolts which go into the oil cooler - I didn't put the seals on properly, had a massive oil leak when I first started it up, had to have the plenum/intake manifold/intake flange off again, which was a bind. My fault for not taking enough care.
Nipped the LH knock sensor wire, between the thermostat housing cooling pipe & and the rear timing belt cover. Didn't nip it hard, but it's a shielded co-ax type thing, and surprisingly delicate. When I figured it out, just spliced a new piece of cable in.
Camshaft timing wasn't a bad job at all, in fact I was a bit sceptical about needing the locking/setting kit, as it went on so easily, but when I checked it at the end with the gauge, it was actually one tooth out on the crankshaft pulley, so yes, £100 well spent.
So now its all done, cost about £300 in parts, plus my time (for nothing - I hope the brother-in law appreciates it!) and that includes a locking kit. Compare that to the £2500 he was quoted by Vauxhall.
It's a lot less daunting going into a big job like that if you know you can go somewhere for advice - so once again thanks to you guys and keep up the good work.
Ian
Cracking job, and satisfying as well I suspect :y
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How did you get at the head bolts with the camshaft in mate?
from memory, I had to take the cams out when doing the heads on my V6..
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James,
Exhaust camshaft has to come out to get to the bolts, but inlet can stay fitted.
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Ian,
Glad you got it sorted and thanks for reporting back.
Your brother-in-law was very lucky to get away with just a spring, I guess the rising piston was creating enough gas flow through the valve to snap it shut so it didnt bend the stem.
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Ian,
Glad you got it sorted and thanks for reporting back.
Your brother-in-law was very lucky to get away with just a spring, I guess the rising piston was creating enough gas flow through the valve to snap it shut so it didnt bend the stem.
And I'm still amazed the collets didn't come off ..............