Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Idris on 15 December 2006, 18:58:25
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I bought a Y reg Omega estate a year ago When I took it back for a service recently, just within the Network Q 1 year warranty I complained that the pedal travel had become worse and that I was concerned that there was something wrong.
I collected it this evening for the FIFTH time, still being told that there is nothing wrong, that "they are all like that" - despite a new master cylinder having been fitted at the third visit - apparently to humour me despite there being "nothing wrong" and today new rear brake pads (don't ask why, I don't know either!)
After the first rejection of my complaint I happened to have to bleed the brakes of my 1939 Lagonda (a marvellously firm pedal!), involving of course pushing down firmly on the pedal to remove air as the bleed valves were opened in turn.
When I got back in the Vauxhall I did the same - and realised that with very firm pressure, after the initial soggyness was taken up, the pedal continued to move down quite slowly, without any increase of pressure - just like when a bleed valve has not been closed properly and fluid is still leaking out.
I checked the fluid level - no problem - so if there is a fluid leak, it must be internal not to the outside world. When I took it back they changed the master cylinder - no different.
But in the very few miles I have driven (carefully) between these five visits this symptom has got steadily worse, to the point that if I brake fairly hard to stop at red lights that have changed at the last moment, and keep the same pressure on the pedal while I wait for the green light - by the time the green does light up the pedal is effectively on the floor! That is, the pedal has moved several inches more, without any increase in pedal pressure - until it hits the mechanical limit of travel.
Yet this one mile from the Vauxhall main dealer who, having had the car for two days, insists there is nothing wrong with it! As it happened they had another Omega in for service - and the same "creep" symptom is evident on that - though not as bad as mine.
When I collected the car this time I said, after trying it, "OK, joke's over - which one of you is Jeremy Beadle? Where are the cameras?" - but they seem to be serious!
The best mechanic I know confirmed on the phone what my opinon has been for some time - this fault is potentially dangerous and I dare not use the car until it is fixed. It must surely be due to fluid leaking through a small hole
So a few questions:
Anyone have, or had, an Omega with similar symptoms? If so, how were they fixed?
Is there any pattern of problems of this type (a) with Omegas (b) with Vauxhalls generally?
and in detail:
Is it possible for the fault to be at a wheel cylinder without the leak being to the outside world leading to a drop of fluid level?
I wondered whether clamping of each of the 4 flexible hoses in turn might isolate the problem.
Given that the master cylinder has been changed, could the fault lie in the brake servo? It would seem to me that it could not, unless the brake fluid in the main system also circulates within the servo. (In other words I do not know whether the link between the servo and the main brakes is entirely mechanical, or done through a shared hydraulic system.)
Any recommendations for anyone who might know how to fix this problem? (I have put the dealer on notice that after they have failed 5 times to fix it I reserve the right to get it fixed elsewhere and pass the bill to them.)
Thanks in advance
Idris
irfrancis:onetel.com
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Welcome to the forum Idris, I'm no brake expert, but others with more tech. experience should be along shortly to help.
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As you well know, that is not normal!
Get the service mgr to sit in car with you, and show him - he cannot deny it then, or say thats normal.
I imagine there is a leak somewhere, but no idea where....
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has the brake fluid been properly changed at service?
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Saw it on a Seat in the late 70's and that was a rubber flexihose ballooning.
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As you well know, that is not normal!
Get the service mgr to sit in car with you, and show him - he cannot deny it then, or say thats normal.
I imagine there is a leak somewhere, but no idea where....
As Tb says that isnt normal.....any chance of taking it to another dealer to show them :-/
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has the brake fluid been properly changed at service?
I'd be more concerned with air in the system. When working one of my project cars i accidently un-did the wrong nut, which let air into the system. I had to move the car to fix it, it created massive travel in the pedal, almost reaching the floor.
Idris I would flush the brake fluid, there is a guide in the maintaince section. I created the guide its very easy to do, just one or 2 bubbles of air could create your problems.
Where are you located Idris, I would be happy to help over the xmas break :y
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Not sure what the problem is Idris, BUT.... Brakes on Omegas are very reliable and give very little grief, apart from the odd 'warped' disks etc. Leaks of all sorts, master cylinder problems, caliper problem etc are quite rare and when occur are usually down to neglect e.g. brake fluid not replaced every 2 years etc. The point I am trying to make is that whatever is wrong with your Omega - and something obviously is - it is NOT typical and NOT common to Omegas.
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If you pump the brake pedal a few times does this still happen?
If no there is probably air in the system.
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Good grief! I know braking systems are quite complicated these days, but this should be meat and drink to any competent mechanic.
As a last resort, you could threaten to take your car to a decent independant garage, and bill network Q for any necessary work. Might not work, but that particular problems needs sorting pronto.
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A sinking brake pedal is usually caused by fluid leaking past the master cylinder seals, back into the reservoir.
Air in the system would give a soft pedal on first press which hardens up as the air dissolves into the fluid, only to reform into bubbles over time so soft pedal returns after a few mins of non-use.
Soft or ballooning hoses cause the pedal to feel springy and can lead to excess travel but the pedal will not sink under constant pressure. ( sticking pads or new pads which havnt bedded in can feel the same)
Your master cylinder has been changed so the seals should be OK, has any mention been made of the ABS unit? This could cause similar symptoms if one of its internal valves is not seating properly.
I think I would refer this to Vauxhall rather than the dealer, they may send a technician to look at it and if he agrees that there is something wrong then he should advise the dealer on what to do.
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I had this on my Staples to Naples banger car.
I replaced everything, and I mean everything, (sometimes twice!!), and spent an absolute fortune on bleeding brake fluid. (pardon the pun!!)
It passed an MOT like that and it drove to Italy over the Alps and back via the Nurburgring and is still in daily service with monthly visits to Knockhill to be royally thrashed around it and the brakes still pull the thing up in a fine fashion.
The last time I drove it, the creep was still there. Whatsmore, my MV6 is the same.
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Never had this on any car, except a banger with leaking seals.
Call VAuxhall direct
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As you well know, that is not normal!
Get the service mgr to sit in car with you, and show him - he cannot deny it then, or say thats normal.
I imagine there is a leak somewhere, but no idea where....
Thanks - but several different "technicians" and a specialist from Network Q have sat in it and test-driven it, and flatly refuse to accept that there is anything wrong! List time I said "Ok, joke's over, whicj one of you is Jeremy Beadle?" and next letter will say "The last time anyone had this much of a problem trying to get a supplier to accept that there was something wrong, it was over a dead Norwegian Blue parrot!
Idris
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Saw it on a Seat in the late 70's and that was a rubber flexihose ballooning.
Can't be that in this case - there are two fundamentally different relationships:
1/ Whatever "give" there is in the system - seals, hoses, linkages act together in effect as a spring, and the brake pedal positon depends on how much force is applied to the pedal to compress the spring - and whatever the force, equilibrium is reached quite quickly.
2/ In this case, once moderate force is applied, the pedal continues to move slowly down without any increase in pressure - until it hits the end stops. That can only be viscous fluid leaking through a small hole - or perhaps air leaking through a very small hole indeed - latter unlikely.
Idris
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I think what ever garage your taking it too, you need to take a another facelift auto down there and get them to compare the 2, and then that proves there is something wrong with yours
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As you well know, that is not normal!
Get the service mgr to sit in car with you, and show him - he cannot deny it then, or say thats normal.
I imagine there is a leak somewhere, but no idea where....
As Tb says that isnt normal.....any chance of taking it to another dealer to show them :-/
Before I took it back last time I took it to a MOT centre, chap said at first "Vauxhall brakes are always long travel and soggy" but when I got him to sit in it and press the brake pedal, after 5 seconds or so he looked up and said "I see what you mean - you've got brake creep". As I understand it, and as one might expect, any MOT test of brakes includes not just pressing the brake pedal briefly, but also keeping it pressed for 10 or 20 seconds to check that it does stop going down.
I told the dealers this, then they changed the rear disc pads (!!!) and gave it back to me saying there is nothing wrong! Next step will probably need to be an independant specialist report - or perhaps just a "Fail" note from a MOT garage
Idris
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I think what ever garage your taking it too, you need to take a another facelift auto down there and get them to compare the 2, and then that proves there is something wrong with yours
As it happened, last time they had another Omega in for service - and that had the same fault symptoms - though rate at which pedal goes down is not as fast as mine!
Over 48 years of drving and 20+ cars, I have several total failures of brakes - never in dangerous circumstances, mostly getting in in the morning and finding pedal goes straight to floor after lfluid leaked out overnight (single circuit Ford Consuls and Zodiac Mk2 and have had similar symptons to present ones on other cars, always recognised as a fault and fixed.
No knowledge of brake fluid having been changed, but much of it presumably was when the master cylinder was changed.
Old contaminated fluid or with air in can of course make for long travel and soggy feel, or problems due to heat when braking from high speed, but not the current problem I would have thought.
Incidentally, after pressing pedal right down, releasing and applying again very quickly gives shorter travel and marginally better feel - ie pedal "pumps up" proving in my view that fluid is leaking out and then being replaced by next pedal stroke
Idris
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has the brake fluid been properly changed at service?
I'd be more concerned with air in the system. When working one of my project cars i accidently un-did the wrong nut, which let air into the system. I had to move the car to fix it, it created massive travel in the pedal, almost reaching the floor.
Idris I would flush the brake fluid, there is a guide in the maintaince section. I created the guide its very easy to do, just one or 2 bubbles of air could create your problems.
Where are you located Idris, I would be happy to help over the xmas break :y
Many thanks and to all who have responded.
For reasons given in previous postings and because pedal travel does seem to be worse than when I bought it, I would not be that surprised to find air in the system - even after new master cylinder must have necessitated bleeding.
Car is in Hanworth, near top end of M3, dealer is near Heathrow but I am home in Hampshire, in principle until early Jan. Most unusually for me, this fault is under warranty, so while in normal circumstances I can and do work on my cars myself, I am disinclined to work on this one myself, that partly because the moment anyone else works on it - without the dealer's acceptance - the dealer might then use that as an exuse to slip out from under.
Thanks anyway, but no, at least for the moment.
Incidentally, I always prefer a short travel, firm pedal as I find it gives me much more confidence - and do not agree at all with a comment elsewhere on this group that long travel and soggy feel is better, to allow more gradual braking! That seems to me to similar to the old American "Sneeze factor" excuse for useless steering with excessive play - "necessary so that the car does not turn if the driver sneezes" and the old (and for all I know current) Institute of Advance Motorists condemnation of heel and toe braking - because, they said, this allows drivers to brake more effectively and therefore encourages them to drive faster!
Idris
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Not sure what the problem is Idris, BUT.... Brakes on Omegas are very reliable and give very little grief, apart from the odd 'warped' disks etc. Leaks of all sorts, master cylinder problems, caliper problem etc are quite rare and when occur are usually down to neglect e.g. brake fluid not replaced every 2 years etc. The point I am trying to make is that whatever is wrong with your Omega - and something obviously is - it is NOT typical and NOT common to Omegas.
Thanks, it has been so obvious to me since the first time I realised that the pedal continues to move down - -and that it was getting worse - that I simply cannot understand how anyone who knows anything about brakes could believe that this is normal! Pleased to have it confirmed that I am not going mad, and that no one has been mad enough to design brakes that do work like this!
Idris
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If you pump the brake pedal a few times does this still happen?
If no there is probably air in the system.
Yes, as very recent post, once pedal has gone down a long way, lifting off and reapplying promptly "pumps" the brakes and travel is reduced - until it sinks down aagin. A few months ago the same thing started to happen on my 1939 Lagonda, in West London and I had to pump the pedal to be able to drive - cautiously - the few miles to my aunt's house. That turned out to be leaking seals in the master cylinder
Idris
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Good grief! I know braking systems are quite complicated these days, but this should be meat and drink to any competent mechanic.
As a last resort, you could threaten to take your car to a decent independant garage, and bill network Q for any necessary work. Might not work, but that particular problems needs sorting pronto.
Beyond belief, isn't it? Options seem to include getting a MOT failure certificate, taking it to another main dealer for confirmation of fault - and then giving my dealer an ultimatum - fix it or replace it, because it is too potentially dangerous (given rate of deterioration) to drive any distance.
Or Trading Standards, because after all they are handing back a car which IS dangerous, and could be a real problem if driven by someone who knows nothing about cars
Idris
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A sinking brake pedal is usually caused by fluid leaking past the master cylinder seals, back into the reservoir.
Air in the system would give a soft pedal on first press which hardens up as the air dissolves into the fluid, only to reform into bubbles over time so soft pedal returns after a few mins of non-use.
Soft or ballooning hoses cause the pedal to feel springy and can lead to excess travel but the pedal will not sink under constant pressure. ( sticking pads or new pads which havnt bedded in can feel the same)
Your master cylinder has been changed so the seals should be OK, has any mention been made of the ABS unit? This could cause similar symptoms if one of its internal valves is not seating properly.
I think I would refer this to Vauxhall rather than the dealer, they may send a technician to look at it and if he agrees that there is something wrong then he should advise the dealer on what to do.
All agreed with my previous experience - the particulary helpful point you make is that it might be in the ABS system. Although I know the basics of what ABS does I do not know in detail how the system works Except, you have reminded me, that the ABS system does indeed have valves (where - in a single central unit or at each wheel?) whch release pressure when a wheel starts to lock up.
If a valve IS leaking, and each valve is at the wheel rather than at the central ABS unit, would clamping up in turn each flexible hose to each wheel confirm at which wheel the fault is?
Similarly, does the fluid actually go in to the brake servo and perhaps leak there, or (as on much older cars) does the servo merely apply extra force mechanical to the pedal linkage?
Idris
Idris
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I had this on my Staples to Naples banger car.
I replaced everything, and I mean everything, (sometimes twice!!), and spent an absolute fortune on bleeding brake fluid. (pardon the pun!!)
It passed an MOT like that and it drove to Italy over the Alps and back via the Nurburgring and is still in daily service with monthly visits to Knockhill to be royally thrashed around it and the brakes still pull the thing up in a fine fashion.
The last time I drove it, the creep was still there. Whatsmore, my MV6 is the same.
Oh dear! Your reply and the surprise that another Omega in for service shows the same symptoms suggests that this may be a more general problem - and I have just remembered that a one man band classic specialist who bled the brakes on my Lagonda refuse point blank even to try out the Omega because he had tried and failed to fix another one - and ended up heavily out of pocket"
However, knowing how much mine has deteriorated - in terms of how hard I need to press and how fast the pedal goes down - in less than 50 miles I would not now drive it to Dover, let alone Naples. I could see it now.
Prosecution" "Did you write several times to the suppying dealer saying that there was a problem with the brakes?"
Me "Yes, several times"
Prosecution. "Yet you continued to drive it, and when the brakes failed you could not stop and ran down an entire bus queue?"
Me "Yes, that it correct."
Prosecution - "I rest my case."
Idris
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Information just received from one of my email contacts -
Idris, sounds as though this may be an ABS pump, controller and modulator failure. The unit is all-in-on and was a common fault on Vectras. Go he fomore information.
http://www.bba-reman.com/content.aspx?content=vauxhall_vectra_abs_pump_controller_modulator
There I read that this is a common fault on Vectras, and the symptoms listed include pedal going right to the floor (not literally I assume, but just to the end of the available master cylinder travel
Idris
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I had this on my Staples to Naples banger car.
I replaced everything, and I mean everything, (sometimes twice!!), and spent an absolute fortune on bleeding brake fluid. (pardon the pun!!)
It passed an MOT like that and it drove to Italy over the Alps and back via the Nurburgring and is still in daily service with monthly visits to Knockhill to be royally thrashed around it and the brakes still pull the thing up in a fine fashion.
The last time I drove it, the creep was still there. Whatsmore, my MV6 is the same.
Oh dear! Your reply and the surprise that another Omega in for service shows the same symptoms suggests that this may be a more general problem - and I have just remembered that a one man band classic specialist who bled the brakes on my Lagonda refuse point blank even to try out the Omega because he had tried and failed to fix another one - and ended up heavily out of pocket"
However, knowing how much mine has deteriorated - in terms of how hard I need to press and how fast the pedal goes down - in less than 50 miles I would not now drive it to Dover, let alone Naples. I could see it now.
Prosecution" "Did you write several times to the suppying dealer saying that there was a problem with the brakes?"
Me "Yes, several times"
Prosecution. "Yet you continued to drive it, and when the brakes failed you could not stop and ran down an entire bus queue?"
Me "Yes, that it correct."
Prosecution - "I rest my case."
Idris
The thing was, even though the 'creep' was evident, the brakes worked a treat and always pulled the car up admirably n a perfectly straight line, (even driving up and particularly down the Alps!!). I'd replaced all the major components of the system and so was satisfied that there were no leaks and that the majority of the components were working A1. As I say it's done probably about 5 or 6 thousand miles without a hitch since then!!
I did call a Vauxhall service department a couple of times, the first time they said it'd be a new ABS modulator, £1500 thanks!! (Chyeah right!!). The next time another bloke said that it's expected on Omegas!! (The MOT station concurred with him, 'cos I'd mentioned it to him when I took the car and he said it wasn't the first time he'd come across it. Like I say, my '02 plate MV6 does it too and that stops on it's nose when I need it to.
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well, this may or may not be the problem ... but there IS a Vx TIS bulletin (E0000880) which says:
complaint:
"poor performance"
"brake pedal goes to the floor"
- this affects many cars, not just the omega ...
cause:
"air bubbles trapped within the ABS unit"
remedy:
"use TECH1 to operate the ABS unit pump whilst simultaneously bleeding the system with a pressure bleeder"
... has this been done already?
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This is turning into a very enlightening thread.
Its a pity there are no Vx technicians reading ;D
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This is turning into a very enlightening thread.
Its a pity there are no Vx technicians reading ;D
Do you know any who CAN read? ;D
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The thing was, even though the 'creep' was evident, the brakes worked a treat and always pulled the car up admirably n a perfectly straight line, (even driving up and particularly down the Alps!!). I'd replaced all the major components of the system and so was satisfied that there were no leaks and that the majority of the components were working A1. As I say it's done probably about 5 or 6 thousand miles without a hitch since then!!
I did call a Vauxhall service department a couple of times, the first time they said it'd be a new ABS modulator, £1500 thanks!! (Chyeah right!!). The next time another bloke said that it's expected on Omegas!! (The MOT station concurred with him, 'cos I'd mentioned it to him when I took the car and he said it wasn't the first time he'd come across it. Like I say, my '02 plate MV6 does it too and that stops on it's nose when I need it to.
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Thanks, understood, up to a point. In my case however the symptoms are getting rapidly worse. In less than 50 miles between visits, creep has gone from barely noticeable under high pressure to down to the floor while waiting for a red light to turn green! I will not continue to drive it a few more miles until I crash for lack of brakes.
In any case, no way on earth should anyone who knows anything about brakes say "its normal with XYZ" - its not normal, its a fault.
Idris
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well, this may or may not be the problem ... but there IS a Vx TIS bulletin (E0000880) which says:
complaint:
"poor performance"
"brake pedal goes to the floor"
- this affects many cars, not just the omega ...
cause:
"air bubbles trapped within the ABS unit"
remedy:
"use TECH1 to operate the ABS unit pump whilst simultaneously bleeding the system with a pressure bleeder"
... has this been done already?
Not as far as I know - but this is NOT just air! It it were just air in the system the pedal would go down far enough to compress the air virtually to nothing and then become firm and stay firm. What is happening to mine is that it goes half way down (say), becomes reasonably firm - and then carried on going down as a function of TIME not pressure - which can ONLY be viscous fluid being forced through a hole - not air.
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I know Marks_DTM has got ait stuck in ABS unit before, hopefully he can enlighten us on the symptoms....
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I would phone Vauxhall Customer Services 01582 427200, explain the problems you are having with the dealer.
Mention that you understand from a reliable source there is a Vx TIS bulletin (E0000880) on this problem.
If you approach them courteously, I think you will find them very reasonable and understanding.
I would also suggest to them that you would like another dealer to examine the problem, as you are not satisfied with the current dealer.
This should not be a problem, as you can take a Network Q warranty claim to any dealer.
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Not sure if i missed it some where but is your car a deisel? If so continual pressure on the brake pedal while the car is stopped with engine running will induce the fault your describing due to the brake servo action and this is normal and applies to nearly all deisels on the market. On a deisel it uses a mechanical vacuum pump to create a vacuum for the servo, so the vacuum servo action builds up on one side of the servo and in effect pulls the pedal down, on a petrol engine unless there is a fault with the servo (assuming no visible leaks , master cylinder has been replaced and brake action and travel feel normal when driving i.e they pull up okay and in balance) the amount of vacuum stays consitant with the engine idle speed. So if its a petrol engine and all the above okay i would suspect a servo problem?
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Not sure if i missed it some where but is your car a deisel? If so continual pressure on the brake pedal while the car is stopped with engine running will induce the fault your describing due to the brake servo action and this is normal and applies to nearly all deisels on the market. On a deisel it uses a mechanical vacuum pump to create a vacuum for the servo, so the vacuum servo action builds up on one side of the servo and in effect pulls the pedal down, on a petrol engine unless there is a fault with the servo (assuming no visible leaks , master cylinder has been replaced and brake action and travel feel normal when driving i.e they pull up okay and in balance) the amount of vacuum stays consitant with the engine idle speed. So if its a petrol engine and all the above okay i would suspect a servo problem?
Thanks -but petrol. The only cause that matches the symptom is a fluid leak - and almost certainly in a ABS valve, as the master cylinder has been changed. I have seen a number of web sites on this issue giving the same symptom and diagnosis - and a MOT tester site which says that this symptom must fail the MOT.
Idris
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I have had the exact same problems on my Vectra, I have bled the brakes a number of times and even 'excercised' the ABS modulator with Tec2 to ensure there are no bubbles trapped in the ABS unit.
The fault has been traced to the ABS unit by clamping the hoses to the calipers and replacing the master cylinder, the ABS unit is the only item left unchecked.
As stated somewhere else it's worth checking the 'bba-reman' site as that's the cheapest place I can find a replacement ABS unit (The Bosch one in mine is over 1K from a stealers but a remanufactured one from bba is 380), it's no use buying one from a scrappy unless you can test it with the engine running and drive it around the block etc.
Trouble is that I only want to use the Vectra to trade in against a meega now so I really don't want to spend the money (also needs a manifold gasket!) and barely get the money back trading it in... may as well sell the parts on eBay, i'd make more....!
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The fault has been traced to the ABS unit by clamping the hoses to the calipers and replacing the master cylinder, the ABS unit is the only item left unchecked.
That's something I forgot to mention in my ramblings. I did that too. I clamped all the flexi hoses to the calipers and the brake pedal was rock hard, so I could eliminate the ABS/master cylinder etc from my suspicions. I also checked, (and had a second opinion on), the flexi pipes for 'balooning' so other than the calipers, (of which I tried two different pairs on both front and back!!), there wasn't much left!
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The fault has been traced to the ABS unit by clamping the hoses to the calipers and replacing the master cylinder, the ABS unit is the only item left unchecked.
That's something I forgot to mention in my ramblings. I did that too. I clamped all the flexi hoses to the calipers and the brake pedal was rock hard, so I could eliminate the ABS/master cylinder etc from my suspicions. I also checked, (and had a second opinion on), the flexi pipes for 'balooning' so other than the calipers, (of which I tried two different pairs on both front and back!!), there wasn't much left!
Thanks - faxed the dealer a 2 page letter last nght, with all the relevant info on anotjher 4 oages, saying I refuse to accept that they cannot recognise (a) that there is a fault (b) the causes, and asking for a date when I can take it back in to be fixed. Also saying it is too dangerous to drive any distance.
Seems to me we have opened a can of worms here - how many ABS cars are bring driven around by people who do not keep pedal pressure on long enough and/or do not realise that the pedal is (a) continuing to go down (b) should not continue to go down?
Worth a word in the ear of the relevant authorities?
Idris
PS You may have heard of my application to the European Court of Human Rights over the right to silence in S172 1988 RTA - the right to silence. If anyone gets a NIP, contact me before doing anything
IF irfrancis@onetel.com see also www.safespeed.org.uk and www.abd.org.uk
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One thing I forgot to mention about the failure of ABS pumps is that it is supposed to be caused by the wrong procedure when fitting new pads....
When retracting the pistons back into the calipers you should release the bleed nipple and let the fluid push out through the path of least resistance (the bleed nipple), however, the quick but wrong way is to push the fluid back into the reservior which on ABS equipped cars causes the ABS Modulator to have fluid forced through it in reverse....
Obviously a stealer would always use the correct procedure... obviously, cough, splutter
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Its classic of the symptoms I have seen on a car with air in the ABS modulator.
In this case it requried a scan tool to operate teh ABS unit and about 2 litres of brake fluid to be forced through in order to clear it.
The systems used on the Omega do give a progressive pedal (more so on later units with the power stop servo) but, there should be NO pedal creep.
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One thing I forgot to mention about the failure of ABS pumps is that it is supposed to be caused by the wrong procedure when fitting new pads....
When retracting the pistons back into the calipers you should release the bleed nipple and let the fluid push out through the path of least resistance (the bleed nipple), however, the quick but wrong way is to push the fluid back into the reservior which on ABS equipped cars causes the ABS Modulator to have fluid forced through it in reverse....
Obviously a stealer would always use the correct procedure... obviously, cough, splutter
This is a usefull thing to know :o :o!! Glad I haven't had to do my pads yet , 'cos I would have F*%ked my ABS modulator :o :o!
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I checked for this yesterday on mine whilst stopped at traffic lights - and can confirm there was NO discernable pedal creep on mine either. :)
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My brake creep problem has still not been resolved, dealers deny any problem!
It would be most helpful if everyone who has an Omega tests for this problem and tells me whether they have or do not have the same symptoms. Rather than clog up this web site with those messages, please just send me an email saying "I have same brake creep symptoms" or "I do NOT have same brake creep symptom. " The ones that do NOT will confirm that this is NOT normal, the ones that do will indicate the scale of the problem
Thanks
Idris
This continuing problem is only one of many reasons to believe that the world has gone mad!
Symtoms of brake problem on Y reg Vauxhall Omega Estate 2.2 litre petrol engined.
1/ Pedal travel is long, and feel then "spongy"
2/ Applying normal pedal pressure to stop, eg for a red light, and then maintaing that pressure (not increasing it) results in the pedal creeping slowly down until eventually it (seems to) hit the end of travel of the master cylinder.
3/ Releasing the pedal and then re-applying it rapidly results in much less pedal travel and a firmer "feel" - followed by the same slow creep down.
As the master cylinder has been changed to no effect, and there is no loss of fluid from the resevoir, these symptoms tell me - with the aid of comments from many of you and various web sites - that there is a slight leak in one or more of the ABS valves, due to corrosion or debris keep it or them slightly open.
This "creep" was not noticeable a month ago when I got a new MOT, and when I first noticed it a week or so later - because I had been bleeding brakes on another car - it took higher than normal pressure to notice very slow creep - to the point that I had to check several times to make sure it was happening.
Now however, after no more than another 50 miles, it happens with perfectly normal pedal pressure, and the rate of creep has increased to the extent that the pedal reaches the limit of its travel in the time it takes traffic lights to change from just going red to green.
All of these tell me that this is a dangerous fault that is getting rapidly worse and that I should not drive it again until it is fixed.
However the Vauxhall main dealer gave it back to me again just before Christmas flatly denying that there is any problem - that these symptoms are "normal" - they have not commented on the fact that the symptoms are getting rapidly worse. Another Omega in for service had the same symptoms, though not as bad as mine.
I telephone VOSA (Vehicle Operators Service Agency) who checked and told me that this is not a safety critical fault (!) and that modern engine management systems do cause the pedal to go slowly to the floor when the car is stationary - but that the ABS system knows when the wheels are turning and immediately restores proper operation!
They were unable to explain why anyone would design a system to do this, nor why the symptoms would change and get worse. Nor why any designer felt it necessary to reduce braking power when stationary - they had no answer to my question of what happens when stopped at road works, for example, on a steep hill.
I did not think to ask them wny no explanation of these symptoms - which would clearly worrry anyone not familiar with them - is given in the drivers' handbook.
It is of course not possible to check for these symptoms when on the move, because pedal pressure necessary to show up the symptoms would bring the car to a halt before the creep had become noticeable.
Yet despite these "explanations" a MOT testers web wite states unequivocally that brake creep of this kind is an automatic "fail"
Comments please!
Cheers
Idris
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I have tested mine a few times since you first posted.
I have NO creep on my 1998 MV6 Omega.
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I have tested mine a few times since you first posted.
I have NO creep on my 1998 MV6 Omega.
I have a slight amount on my 99 Elite but the pedal doesn't go to the floor. Since this thread has started I've tried, but I do find myself pumping the pedal slightly when I'm breaking from high speed ie down the off-slip of the motorway and the feel is definitely better after a pump or two (ooer!)
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Am I right to think the car is a manual now having had a similar issue with my dads 2.0 where the brake pedal would travel right to the floor with hardly any effect.
Basically the car had new brake pipes fitted and the guy who fitted them only bled the brake system at the calipers but not the clutch and topped the reservoir up and so as the two are on the same system I thought to bleed the clutch and now the brake pedal is much firmer and even the clutch is working much better, when bleeding a load of air came out which I can only assume was the problem.
Not sure this is any help to you but thought it maybe something to look at.
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My next course of action would be to call Vauxhall customer services......they are very helpful people.
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hmmm ... just an idea ... none of the calipers are sticking are they, especially the rear ones? I seem to remember the brake pedal on my old miggy being a bit odd, one of the rear calipers was seized ... possibly worth checking?
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I have tested mine a few times since you first posted.
I have NO creep on my 1998 MV6 Omega.
Thanks, keeping count
Idris
my email address is irfrancis@onetel.com
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I have tested mine a few times since you first posted.
I have NO creep on my 1998 MV6 Omega.
Thanks, keeping count
Idris
my email address is *****@onetel.com
Idris,
There is something called bots which is basically automated software routines that scan websites for email addresses and automatically compile spam email lists – so unless you are particularly interested in various enhancement medication or fake Rolex then it is best if you send your private email address by Personal Message (PM), and remove it from the post.
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replies to various - thanks to all
My Omega is an auto, so clutch issues do not apply.
My email address is everywhere anyway, so a few more won't make much difference!
Idris
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First, for anyone not wishing the read the whole of this:
Can anyone recommend a thorought competent brake specialist, preferably somewhere from SW London the Hampshire, or otherwise anywhere in SE England?
Does anyone know a garage or brake specialist who use - or the supplier of - Tech1 (Tec1?) a system which electronically opens and closes the ABS valves while pressure flushing the brake fluid? This offers the lowest cost solution if my diagnosis is correct.
Current symptoms, after not using the (petrol, ABS) Omega for more than 2 weeks over Christmas:
Brake pedal "creep" is significantly worse than before, taking no more than 4 or 5 seconds at typical brake pedal pressure for the pedal to creep down to the end of available travel - or close to the end.
Releasing the pedal and immediately re-applying it results in the original travel and then renewed creep, ie the pedal "pumps up."
Checking on an empty motorway in the early hours, braking reasonably from 70mph, I can now confirm that the pedal creep DOES happen when the car is moving - not just when stopped (one of the excuses for why this symptom"does not matter")
The pedal creep is also evident with the engine stopped and ignition off, though because there is no boosted pressure due to the servo, it is less obvious).
(As before, there is no fluid loss and the master cylinder has been changed to no effect)
The Vauxhall service manager, trying to be helpful, asked me to get an independent report confirming that these are fault symptoms, so that he can show it to the Network Q people who deny that there is and get them to authorise him to fix it.
I asked the local MOT garage who did the recent MOT to check the brake creep - no problem, they say! I pointed out that the pedal virtually reaches the end of the available travel, ie the stroke of the master cylinder - and the chap said "it doesn't - not quite!"
One car inspection company, which was hesitant on the phone about whether these are fault symptoms or not, wanted £150 to come to check it out - cash I would of course lose if they said that there is no fault. Today I went to 4 "brake specialists". The first two had side street garages rather smaller than mine at home and I could not sensibly expect Vauxhall to accept their opinion in preference to their own. At the third, the moment I mentioned "brake problems" he said that I should come back in the morning, as they would not have the spares until then. Quite how he knew that he did not have the spares in stock, but would have in the morning, before I had told him the nature of the problem I do not know - but in the time-honoured phrase, I made my excuses and left.
The 4th, Kwik-Fit in Isleworth, agreed that the symptoms were odd but were not prepared to say outright that there was a defect. So overall, I am dubious about being able to get an enforceable opinion that there is a fault so that Vauxhall give in, and for that reason am not inclined to give the car back and sue for it to be fixed or replaced.
Vauxhall's view is that this is "normal" - indeed they told me they have the same symptoms on a new Vectra in the whowroom! They also say that it only happens when the wheels are not turning, and that the ABS allows the pedal to creep down in this way.
Can anyone fault any of the following logic of why this is GARBAGE?
(1) A few members of the Omega owners web group have confirmed to me that they have similar symptoms - others that they do not, after checking in the light of my comments. So how can this be "normal"?
(2) The car did not have this symptom when I bought it a year ago - or I would not have bought it. A month ago the symptom was only just noticeable, with high pedal pressure. Now it is obvious with modest pressure. So how can it be "normal"?
(3) For anyone used to non -ABS cars, pedal creep is an unmistakable sign of a fluid leak - so if this ABS system was designed to do this, the handbook would surely have pointed out that the symptom is "normal" - but it does not do so.
(4) Nothing I have found on any web site, for MOT testers, VOSA etc, nor any MOT tester seems to have any official circular stating that this is not a fault symptom on these cars.
5/ If pedal creep WERE normal - how would a driver know that a leak was developing elsewhere - eg in a master cylinder seal - before it became dangerous?
6/ As I understand it, ABS valves, being electrically operated, are either open or closed - no proportional opening is possible. When triggered they chatter open and closed at 30 cycles per second, making that rattling sound and pulsing feel on the brake pedal. As I understand it the 4 valves - one for each wheel - are the only designed-in way that fluid can be released deliberately. All those being the case, how could it be possible for a "normal" valves to allow a SLOW leak? If they are closed, they allow no leak, if they are open they allow a major leak, and it is not possible that they could cause a slow leak by chattering, as they are designed to do, because (a) the chattering would be clearly audible and (b) easty to feel on the brake pedal.
7/ I refuse to believe that anyone would design a system that would allow the pedal to take up all or almost all of its available travel
8/ If the system WERE designed to allow the pedal to creep down almost but not quite to the end of its travel, the system would need to know when the pedal/master cylinder had reached that point - for example. by leaking the fluid through a hole which gets covered up as the pedal reaches that point. Unless and until someone confirms that this is what happens, I refuse to believe it.
As things stand therefore I plan to find someone who can use the Tech1 or similar system to try to clear the fault, and if that fails get the ABS valve block replaced myself, and when I can then show that the symptom has been eliminated, ask Network Q to pay
see also brief next post
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PS
BUT THERE'S MORE!
When I decided - after being told that the brakes are "normal" to drive slowly and carefully to get other opinions, I decided to test out the handbrake - only to find that it has virtually NO effect! It feels normal, but has no apparent effect on speed, except at very slow speeds indeed when it can just be felt. I took it back to the same MOT garage that passed it a month ago and they put it on their rolling road - and told me that it achieved DOUBLE the minimum of 16% efficiency ie 0.16g, at 0.33g!
I have many times driven my old cars with MOT testers in the passenger seat, monitoring the old style Tapley brake meter - still used for vehicles which cannot be used on rolling roads. I know perfectly well what 0.33g feels like - quite strong braking, but of course well short of a panic stop at close to 1g that can be achieved in optimal conditions. There seems to be no resemblance at all between the barely noticeable braking the handbrake gives on the road and the rolling road reading,
Any help and advice appreciated.
Idris
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sounds like the rear brakes need servicing ... the sticking caliper problem on my old omega keeps coming to mind when reading this!!
have a look at the guide here (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1152564750)
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Just a note. handbrake percentage has dropped from older cars to 16% due to split circuit braking. VOSA feel that the chances of both circuits failing on a modern car is very very small
point being that handbrakes don't have to stop the car any more just basically hold it on an incline to stop it rolling once the car has come to a stop.
Not to say that your handbrake shouldn't be able to stop but i would expect to see at least 30% of weight of car as your efficeincy.
What i've found normally gives a poor handbrake is continual adjustment of the cable to reduce slack.
Correct proceedure with drum style handbrake is to fully slacken cable/s adjust shoes up to just touch drum (don't rely on self adjusters working) back of a 1/4 of a turn then adjust cable/s to achieve correct h/brake cable. On rear disc models with h/brake shoes inside the drum of the disc relatively easy through hole in disc(with wheel removed!) with drum brake rears bit of a pain to keep taking drum off and on but a good time to check shoes and lip on drum for wear. not sure on 'meega's if there all disc any way. :)
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Can I sudgest that you take the car to another Vauxhall masterfit outfit and ask for a free brake check (most do this) as the pedal is sinking to the floor, dont mention network Q warranty or anything and wait for the free report.....
Then hit them with the Network Q warranty.....
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Incidentally, if you need to get the pump operated in the ABS unit, for you're car it is a Tech2. Tech1 is for pre 1997 cars...
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Thanks for various replies.
Dealer just fitted new rear pads - for no reason I can think of. I would tend to think they would have seen any sticking problem. Also, unable to see how sticking pads could cause my symptoms
Since writing have found more info, Tech 2 is the machine for my 2001 car. I will now ask dealer whether they have changed the fluid, and/or used Tech 2. If not will ask them to do it.
Thanks for free brake check info - good idea, will do if Tech 2 does not solve it
Re handbrake - what astonishes me is that a 30% efficiency reading on the rolling road, confirmed as meaning brake effect equivalent to 30% of weight, should mean 0.3g deacceleration. I have driven my old cars to test foot and hand brakes on Tapley meter, and I know more or less what 0.3g feels like - eg it corresponds to having to lean forward about 30 degrees to keep balance - but what the Omega provides on the road is barely noticeable at all. I intend to borrow a Tapley meter and see what thehandbrake is REALLY like.
30% should mean that handbrake would hold on a 1 in 3 hill - I doubt whether this would hold on a 1 in 20 hill, it certainly does not hold on a typical motorway slip road!
Idris
Cheers
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The hand brakes are not brilliant - they pass MOTs and that is good enough.
I prefer what they have to the alternatives, such as handbrake mechanisms within the calipers - they tend to leak, I aquired some Chrysler 180 rear calipers once but could not get the seal kit (common Sunbeam conversion) they were leaking around the hand brake mechanism. And the other alternative of rear drums :o
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The handbrake works well when correctly set.....which seems to rarely happen, I am yet to get an Omega where it works correctly !
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......
I prefer what they have to the alternatives, such as handbrake mechanisms within the calipers - .....
Citroen amongst others have had problems with handbrakes that use the disc. As the disc has cooled down they've let go and allowed the car to roll away. Drum brakes as crude as they are, are aparently better suited to handbrakes.
Also if you've ever had the 'pleasure' of replacing the rear pads of an Hyundai Lantra you'd change your mind about disc operated handbrakes! :(
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I've just been catching up with this thread Idris and sorry to hear about this tale of woe. :(
I have a 1999 Omega 2.5 V6 CD Estate and can confirm that I get no brake creep whatsoever. Do you also want me to send you an e-mail stating this?
Good luck in getting it sorted.
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Thanks.
I have now arranged to have the cars bled by the Vauxhall dealer, with the Tech 2 system I now know they must and do have ie operating the ABS valves electrically while pressure flushing the fluid.
If this fixes it - fine, If not I will get an after-market ABS valve block and hope that fixes it. If not, despite it being the biggest estate car (of a type that suits my model aircraft - long but not necessarily that tall) I may well decide to get rid of it because I could never be happy driving anything with such a big question mark over its ability to stop when I need it to.
If the MOT requirement is only for a handbrake that gives no percetible braking on the move, it simply is not good enough! On a 1960 Alvis TD21 DHC years ago - disc fronts, drum rears - a calipern bolt sheared miles from home and allowed the calipers to pivot so that the pads, if operated, ran on the rusty outer perimiter of the disc. I continued my 70 mile journey carefully, using just the handbrake, with no problems at all
Idris
Idris
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Wel i have just read this thread, and i have to say the things that would cause a pedal creep is/are
most common someone has replaced the brake pads without opening the bleed nipples and forced the master cylinder seals to turn itself this will result in a reasonable pedal at first then sinking to the floor and is bloody dangerous!!!!
Second a worn bore in the master cylinder will allow a small amout of brake fluid back past the seal intothe reservoir and the pedal will pump up but continue to fall down!! are you sure they replaced the whole mastercylinder and not just the plastic bit on the top??
Air in ABS system which will slowly compress and allow the pedal to creep but should stop and will also give a low problem sometimes the only way to slear it is to find a private stretch of road and do replated hard high speed stops trying to lock the brakes every time, this activates the pump modulator thus forcing the bubbles out of the accumulator, this treatment was the only way to cure a Lotus Carlton of its piss poor performance braking and the owner now reports a nice firm progressive pedal,
and the nost unlikely but if the car is used gently is a sticking usually rear caliper piston but this usually means a soggy unfeeling? pedal which cannot be bled properly despite appearing to flow nothing but clean fluid. although it can sink to a certain amount as the fluid becomes cavitated with the large airbubbles being forced to smaller almost miniscule ones under pressure!!
Omegatoy
edit
none of the asbove will actually show a loss of fluid!!
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Thanks, all makes sense.
The master cylinder, as seen in he engine bay looks new, though I did not see it fitted nor was I given the old one.
Again, this has to be a fluid leak (albeit within the system) not air in the system because air acts like a spring - giving a soggy brake pedal - and the pedal goes up and down in response to more and less pedal pressure whereas a fluid leak gives slow steady downward movement and no up movement until pedal pressure is reduced to below that of the return spring.
I agree that it is bloody dangerous - especially as it has got worse and worse over less than 50 miles - and the supposed 30% efficiency of the handbrake as tested on a rolling road translates to hardly eny slowing down at all on the road! What baffles me is that so many mechanics seem to think it is not a problem! For a start, having to push the pedal that far down even before the creep starts adds feet to stopping distances in an emergency.
I am convinced that it is leaking ABS valves and hope that the Tech 2 bleeding process, which activates them, will fix it, without the risks invoklved in repeated sudden stops on surfaces slippery enough to trigger valve operation.
If the Tech 2 system does not solve the problem and I am faced with buying a replacement from BBA or whoever, does anyone know whether
(a) it is possible or sensible for an amateur to remove the existing ABS valve block?
(b) for an amateur to take the existing one apart to try to find the fault and repair it?
(c) as above but an averagely competent mechanic rather than a specialist?
Obviously I do not wish to take any risks
Cheers
Cheers
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For reasons that become obvious below, I would like as many as possible to do the following test and email me the results:
1/ Sit in the driver's seat with the engine running.
2/ Press moderately hard on the brake pedal - and keep the same pressure applied for up to a minute.
3/ There are only two possible results - either:
(a) once the initial free play and compressibility have been taken up in the first second or so, the pedal stays where it is.
(b) once the initial free play and compressibility have been taken up in the first second or so, the pedal moves down slowly but steadily.
If in doubt, try holding a long stick or broom handle or whatever so that the bottom end rests on the brake pedal alongside your foot and the upper end rests against the edge of the steering wheel, making it easy to see any continuing movement rather than rely on "feel".
Either way, please confirm the following
More movement or not, make and model, age, petrol or diesel, ABS or not.
For hydraulic brakes only of course, not rod or cable!
Thanks
I have just collected my 2001 Vauxhall Omega for the 6th time, and the fault symptom remains the same (in kind, worse still in extent). When I do the above test, the pedal creeps downward under constant pressure, reaching the end of travel (now) within 5 seconds or so/
Amazingly, a brand new, unsold Vectra at the dealer's does the same - BUT WORSE! With relatively light pressure, the pedal continues to move down quite rapidly until it hits the end stop with an audible click! Apparently they all do this, and no one else has noticed and they sell them by the hundred!
I refuse to believe that anyone in his right mind would design a brake system to do this - quite apart from the safety and lack of confidence aspects, how can drivers control braking properly if the pedal keeps moving down - and what happens in a high speed stop, when the pedal hits the end of travel - inevitably taking some of the availble foot pressure - before the car stops?
I now intend to get the ABS valve block checked and if necessary replaced.
A friend rang to tell me that Watchdog on BBC this week referred to an unidentified "British" car manufacturer has a major safety problem that they refuse to recognise - I wonder if this is it?
Idris reply by email to irfrancis@onetel.com
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For reasons that become obvious below, I would like as many as possible to do the following test and email me the results:
1/ Sit in the driver's seat with the engine running.
2/ Press moderately hard on the brake pedal - and keep the same pressure applied for up to a minute.
3/ There are only two possible results - either:
(a) once the initial free play and compressibility have been taken up in the first second or so, the pedal stays where it is.
(b) once the initial free play and compressibility have been taken up in the first second or so, the pedal moves down slowly but steadily.
If in doubt, try holding a long stick or broom handle or whatever so that the bottom end rests on the brake pedal alongside your foot and the upper end rests against the edge of the steering wheel, making it easy to see any continuing movement rather than rely on "feel".
Either way, please confirm the following
More movement or not, make and model, age, petrol or diesel, ABS or not.
For hydraulic brakes only of course, not rod or cable!
Thanks
I have just collected my 2001 Vauxhall Omega for the 6th time, and the fault symptom remains the same (in kind, worse still in extent). When I do the above test, the pedal creeps downward under constant pressure, reaching the end of travel (now) within 5 seconds or so/
Amazingly, a brand new, unsold Vectra at the dealer's does the same - BUT WORSE! With relatively light pressure, the pedal continues to move down quite rapidly until it hits the end stop with an audible click! Apparently they all do this, and no one else has noticed and they sell them by the hundred!
I refuse to believe that anyone in his right mind would design a brake system to do this - quite apart from the safety and lack of confidence aspects, how can drivers control braking properly if the pedal keeps moving down - and what happens in a high speed stop, when the pedal hits the end of travel - inevitably taking some of the availble foot pressure - before the car stops?
I now intend to get the ABS valve block checked and if necessary replaced.
A friend rang to tell me that Watchdog on BBC this week referred to an unidentified "British" car manufacturer has a major safety problem that they refuse to recognise - I wonder if this is it?
Idris reply by email to irfrancis@onetel.com
I have tried this a couple of times now since your original post.
My Omega does NOT have this fault. No creep.
1998 Omega MV6 - mini facelift, so ABS/TC 5.3 (the newer ABS system fitted to post 98 cars). I can probably get the ECU model/part no from Tech2 if you require...
A (non abused) brake pedal hitting the floor is NOT normal.
I wonder if any of our police and MOT testers care to comment...
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My Omega (98built 99reg 3.0 V6 Elite Estate auto. ) does NOT do this... nor , to my knowledge, do any of the others i have driven in the last 5 years.
I rest my foot on the brake pedal a lot.... believe you me., I'd bloody well notice.
For the record, Nor does our V6 Sintra.... although it's had it's share of brake problems.... including requiring a new ABS block... none of them have had symptoms remotely resembling this...
Max
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2000 2.5V6 CDx Facelift Saloon Manual - 57K miles full service history
No pedal creep
1998 3.0V6 Ex-plod Mini facelift estate auto - 88K miles full service history
No pedal creep
1999 2.5V6 CDx Mini facelift Saloon Manual - 137K miles full service history
No pedal creep
I have spoken to a few people in the know....they have seen it on very high mileage Vectra B's with poor service history and it was cured every time by replacement of the master cylidner.....
They recommend contacting Vauxhall customer service directly at Luton (and one of them works at Luton!). Simply explain the faults to them and run through the issues with the dealer......point out how dangerous this would be if decending a hill......
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Thanks, confirming that this creep is NOT normal. I guess it is always possible that the new master cylinder is faulty, and I need to be pretty sure that my problem is really in the ABS valve block before spending £400+ for a replacement and more again to fit it.
Any ideas on how the valve block could be checked? Ideally without dismantling or removing but by disconnecting pipes eg
The block clearly must have 4 pipes leading to the 4 wheels, either 1 or 2 pipes from the master cylinder (2 for dual circuit brakes?) and another pipe to take fluid legitimately passed by the ABS valves, back to the reseivoir part of the system. It occurs to me that if that return pipe could be identified and opened up, leakage of fluid through one or more of the valves would be bound to show up as fluid coming from the valve block to that pipe.
Does anyone know a properly competent garage either in West London or Hampshire - or for that matter anywhere else nearby - who could investigate and if necessary fit a new block?
I will now ring Vauxhall customer service - although I know that the Network Q specialist has been involved again this time
Cheers
Idris
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Hello Idris
My brother used a mechanic in Tolworth (next town on from Kingston Upon Thames). The mechanic was also used by 4 of his work colleagues who rated him highly. His name is Steve and his business is called Sunray Motors tel: 0208 337 7866.
It's just him on his own in a large domestic style garage but he has all the gear and more importantly, knows his stuff. He's very thorough, very reliable and does a decent honest job. Plus his prices are very reasonable. Knowing some of the people who recommended him I think he will sort your problem out.
If he's too far away you might want to look up "Good garages" on the Honest John site: www.honestjohn.co.uk. There are a few garages in West London on there.
I tried my brake pedal tonight and it was solid. Didn't budge. Never has though.
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Thanks, confirming that this creep is NOT normal. I guess it is always possible that the new master cylinder is faulty, and I need to be pretty sure that my problem is really in the ABS valve block before spending £400+ for a replacement and more again to fit it.
Any ideas on how the valve block could be checked? Ideally without dismantling or removing but by disconnecting pipes eg
The block clearly must have 4 pipes leading to the 4 wheels, either 1 or 2 pipes from the master cylinder (2 for dual circuit brakes?) and another pipe to take fluid legitimately passed by the ABS valves, back to the reseivoir part of the system. It occurs to me that if that return pipe could be identified and opened up, leakage of fluid through one or more of the valves would be bound to show up as fluid coming from the valve block to that pipe.
Does anyone know a properly competent garage either in West London or Hampshire - or for that matter anywhere else nearby - who could investigate and if necessary fit a new block?
I will now ring Vauxhall customer service - although I know that the Network Q specialist has been involved again this time
Cheers
Idris
I use West End Vauxhall in Edgware Road (Vx Dealers) - I was not impressed with some aspects of their services but what I must say is that from the purely technical point of view they were very good - they did the cambelt on both my current and previous Omega, as well as the oil cooler, and all repairs were perfect and I had no problems with them. They charge around £45 for a basic diagnostic which is not unreasonable.
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Thanks for both references - I will try Tolworth first as nearer - I know it well as a business partner of mine lived there (and his wfe worked for the Civil Service in Tolworth Towers - on the Kingston bypass.
Idris
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Hi Idris
Been following your problem and just thought that I would mention a couple of problems that I had with my Omega brakes when I first purchased it. Mines a 99 2.5 Elite which I believe has same system as yours. It was brought from Network Q with 15000 miles.
The symptons I had were:
Very long pedal travel
In my mind a very spongey pedal.
This in my case made me lose confidence in the brakes especially as you mentioned when leaving motorways on slip roads, also unless hard pedal pressure maintained at lights etc car had tendancey to creep if you relaxed pressure slightly.
This went back to Vauxhall on at least 8 occasions with main man from Luton testing it twice. the system was bled every way possible new pads all round but still felt the same pedal went solid about
1 inch from floor but felt that it was against a stop.
If pedal stamped on hard wheels would lock and ABS would cut in OK.
This resulted eventually in a rather polite discussion in the dealers Service managers office with the man from Luton where he informed me the brakes were within spec and they could carry out no further work under warranty and i might be more happy going back to a Ford.
After argument spilling out into showroom which was quite funny especially when i sugested that he should consider a Change of Career maybe to washing the cars we parted company.
At this point I must say the dealer service manager did continue to be extremely helpful after this episode.
Still getting to the point after now giving up with Vauxhall I decided tor start looking myself.
What I found and I don't think its been mentioned to you is that the Brake pedal travel can be adjusted at pedal and since I carried out this agjustment 6+ years ago now the brakes have been fine the pedal stops about two thirds of the way down which as the pedal is now closer to me gives a
lot more confidence whilst braking.
Might be worth a try or ask your garage to check it but be sure to retighten locknut after adjustment.
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Thanks.
Passed through Alton today in Omega, asked opinion of Bentley/Rolls specialist I know well - he said he could not believe that anyone could consider the brake pedal creep normal or safe! Took it to the Tolworth chap, only yo find that he too denies there is any problem, would not even admit that the pedal keeps going down, said no point in him doing anything as he can see nothing wrong with it
I have ahd about 10 more emails all saying no pedal creep - not all Omegas - and that I should not give in.
Re last hepful reply - all agreed and understood, and I am in favour of taking out all available slack in the pedal mechanism. But Tolworth chap, testing on slight incline, says they start to bite at 1" travel, so that is normal, - but spongy so treavel is long by time on hard - but after that comes creep.
Anyone feel like taking test drives in new(ish) Vauxhalls to see how many are bad?
I now have another contact to try. One email, indrectly from service manager of a Ford dealer said it must be the ABS valves
Idris