Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: hugster62 on 24 April 2007, 21:22:54
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Hi guys
Nice site. I have a BIG problem. Here's the story... A couple of days ago whilst doing about 70mph, white/grey smoke started to billow out of the back of the car (A 1996 2.0 16V CD), it lasted for about 10 seconds and the stopped. The rest of the day and pretty much all of the next day it was fine, no smoke. Then yesterday it did it again, again for about 10 seconds, and then stopped. Finally tonight it did it again (only when i got to about 60-70mph again though, same as the last two times) but this time it was continual. I was only about 1 or 2 miles from home so got back and turned it off.
Here's some points... It has had a slight oil leak (very slight) and had been topped up with oil this morning. There is plenty of water, it hasn't been disappearing and i haven't had a water leak or needed to top it up. The engine management light has been coming on intermittently but isn't in now and the white grey smoke is now coming out of the exhaust whilst the car is idling.
Can anyone help me please? I fear the worst... HEAD GASKET?!!???
Graham
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I know its hard to tell in this recent heat, but do your heaters in the cabin work? (warm air from the vents)
It could be a HBV (heater by-pass valve) problem...
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Step one......read teh stored fault codes.....the ECU light has been lit so a fault will have been logged.....
Also, what service history does it have....any recent.....last air filter change?
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Hi, not sure because i haven't had the heaters on for a while and i don't really want to start the engine. I will try the heater without the engine running to see. If it is the problem you suggested will I get heat or not? Thanks, Graham
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Well it's not the HBV as that has no connection to the combustion system.
First check the fault codes (look in the maintenance guide). Even though the EM light is not on, the codes will be stored.
Post up the results.
Next, how is the oil filler neck and the bottom of the dipstick? Any signs of contamination.
A bit of creamy deposit round the filler is ok, I am talking big amounts.
How is the temperature gauge? Is it going over 100?
How is the car running? Is it idling and revving smoothly or is it very lumpy and hesitant?
It could be the HG (which on the 2.0 is not that bad) or it could be other things including a failing catalytic convertor (hence the EM light).
We will know better with the answers to the above questions.
Oh, and welcome to the forum, I just wish it was under better circumstances.
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Ok, just tried the heater, they work fine hot air from vents.
Graham
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Ok, just tried the heater, they work fine hot air from vents.
Graham
My mistake it won't be HBV... sorry :-[ (bit stupid when it comes to cars!)
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Thanks for the welcome guys...
answers to questions...
1. I bought the car a month ago and it doesn't have a manual or anything so not sure hoe to get the codes off the display
2. No signs of contamination at all (hopefully that's good)
3 Definitely not going over 100 on the temp gauge
4 Not much of a service history really, but overall in really good condition. It drives really well, when it idles it does sometimes feel like it may stall but doesn't and it's only very occasionally.
(I'm really impressed with this Omega, it's the first one i've had and would def. have another even after all this!!)
Graham
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Read this.
http://topbuzz.co.uk/info/fault_codes/fault_codes.htm
Diagnostic socket is under steering column. 16 pin connector mounted vertically.
Short pins 4 & 6.
Pin 1 is top right, pin 2 is directly below etc.
You will have The Siemens/Simtec Ecu.
Read the codes, post up the results. :)
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....and pop the airfilter out to make sure its clean....
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any coolant loss?
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Ok guys
I will check the codes first thing in the morning as it's quite dark now, In answer to your other questions I have no coolant loss and this is going to sound real dumb... where exactly is the air filter located, i don;t have a manual or anything with this car
Thanks guys
Graham
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Ok guys
I will check the codes first thing in the morning as it's quite dark now, In answer to your other questions I have no coolant loss and this is going to sound real dumb... where exactly is the air filter located, i don;t have a manual or anything with this car
Thanks guys
Graham
You can't miss it mate, Huuuge black square box at the front of the engine, to the drivers side. A few clips, lift up the top, and there you have it!
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Thank you, I will check that first thing in the morning also and will post all results tomorrow.
For all your help so far guys I thank you, what a great site
Graham
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Morning guys
OK following on from last night I have checked the air filter and it looks like brand new. I have also located the 16 pin ALDL plug and here are the results. I inserted the paper clip and turned on the ignition. The light flashes 10 times, pauses, flashes 3 times, pauses, flashes 4 times, pauses, and then flashes 10 times. It seems to repeat itself after this.
Ok, fingers crossed it's not too bad...
Graham
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Well, its showing a camshaft sensor fault......not unusual on the 4 pots....that doesnt explain the smoke though...
Any mayo on the dipstick or oil filler cap...
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Right, just checked the oil cap and the dipstick and both show no signs whatsoever of emulsified oil, they actually look really clean (apart from oil of course...)
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Sounds like cam cover gasket gone. Does it smoke more on right hand bends?
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It only seems to smoke when i get up to 65-70mph and not particularly on bends. In fact the first two times were on a straight bit of road, just a big puff or smoke for a few seconds then nothing.
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Confirming white/grey smoke and not oily blue?
White/grey is, to me, either water (steam) or brake fluid.
Do you have to top up the brake fluid master cylinder? Not sure of the specific internals on the Omega but I have seen (cant remember specific car or make) where the vacuum accumulator and seal arrangement passes and draws the brake fluid into the engine and gets burnt as grey smoke.
Similar to the brake fluid decokes that were done years ago - poor mans Redex down the neck of the carb. ;)
Just a thought....
B
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Ok, this is getting stranger by the minute. I'm pretty sure it's white/grey smoke, the brake fluid master cylinder looks fine, it's full and i haven't needed to refill it but I have noticed a small hole in my exhaust pipe, you can hear now that it's blowing (but it wasn't doing that last night???) but yes, pretty sure white not blue smoke.
Thanks, Gra
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Ok, this is getting stranger by the minute. I'm pretty sure it's white/grey smoke, the brake fluid master cylinder looks fine, it's full and i haven't needed to refill it but I have noticed a small hole in my exhaust pipe, you can hear now that it's blowing (but it wasn't doing that last night???) but yes, pretty sure white not blue smoke.
Thanks, Gra
If theres a hole, could the baffling material be coming loose through the corrosion, getting hot and burning?
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So, if no coolant loss, the white smoke can't be coolant.... ....if its blue oily smoke, is the oil level going down?
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Yeah, what you're saying make perfect sense. There is no water loss but I do have an oil leak, to give you an idea, left overnight. I expect to get a drip of oil about 3-4cm in diameter left on the driveway. I have been keeping an eye on the oil level, topping the oil up, but not really excessively I don't think, I have put in about 2 litres since I bought the car at the beginning of February (about 3 months). Is that excessive? allowing for the small leak?
Graham
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Yeah, what you're saying make perfect sense. There is no water loss but I do have an oil leak, to give you an idea, left overnight. I expect to get a drip of oil about 3-4cm in diameter left on the driveway. I have been keeping an eye on the oil level, topping the oil up, but not really excessively I don't think, I have put in about 2 litres since I bought the car at the beginning of February (about 3 months). Is that excessive? allowing for the small leak?
Graham
I never, ever top up my oil between changes (every 3 - 4k), even when my cam covers failed.
That is quite a leak, can you see where from?
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Right, I've just had a look under the car and there seems to be a small pointed "thing" just about level with the back of the front wheel (as you look at the car from the drivers side) if that makes sense, and pretty much in the centre of the engine (it's just to the back of the actual engine itself, nearly level with the exhaust downpipe). Not sure if that "pointed thing" is anything to do with the oil or maybe that's the route the leak is taking. (It's a real shame I cant post photos)
Any ideas?
Gra
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Right, I've just had a look under the car and there seems to be a small pointed "thing" just about level with the back of the front wheel (as you look at the car from the drivers side) if that makes sense, and pretty much in the centre of the engine (it's just to the back of the actual engine itself, nearly level with the exhaust downpipe). Not sure if that "pointed thing" is anything to do with the oil or maybe that's the route the leak is taking. (It's a real shame I cant post photos)
Any ideas?
Gra
Host the photo for free at www.photobucket.com ;)
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doh!?
I have my own website... here's the link
http://www.studio62.co.uk/leak.html
hope this works
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Looking at the picture, looks like the oil is coming from higher to me... ...can you clean it up a bit to help you seeing where it comes from?
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It is a cam cover get the gasket, the 10 O rings, clean all the breathers, wipe up any loose oil.
Take off the Ecotec panel - you will see oil around the plug leads.
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does it happen under heavy load? (heavy acceleration/ going uphill)
How old is the oil?
Is there signs of oil leaking from the rocker cover?
I had a similar baffling problem with my old 4 pot veccy (same engine) I changed the oil and filter an dhey presto!!!
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Ok
I have taken the Ecotec cover off and here's what i found underneath
http://www.studio62.co.uk/plugs.html
Is that what i should see?
Thanks for all your help guys, really appreciate it
Gra
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Pull the plug leads, is there any oil in there?
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Hi the oil is quite new but it does only happen under acceleration (in the car were myself, the wife and three kids) I do have an oil leak but under the car, i've just posted a couple of images that may be of help in explaining what the problem is.
Gra
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Ok
I have taken the Ecotec cover off and here's what i found underneath
http://www.studio62.co.uk/plugs.html
Is that what i should see?
Thanks for all your help guys, really appreciate it
Gra
Whats underneath the plug cap? When my cam cover gasket went the plugs became full of oil...
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Pull the plug leads, is there any oil in there?
TB you must have beat me by seconds there ;-)
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Pull the plug leads, is there any oil in there?
TB you must have beat me by seconds there ;-)
Keep up :P
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ive checked the plugs, they aren't sitting in oil that's for sure but there is a very faint trace of oil on the rubber plugs as they come out. Inside the plugs they are really quite clean, no oil but they progressively "sticky" towards the back of the engine... it could be oil, it has a slight yellowy colour on the inside of the plug sockets.
Gra
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Pop a bit of kitchen roll in the rear plug well, and see if the corner comes out oily. Until you've seen it before, its difficult to visualise what it should be like. Any wet oil on the kitchen roll will mean the gaskets have failed...
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Here's inside the plug socket if thats any good
http://www.studio62.co.uk/inside.html
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put some kitchen roll in, i wouldn't say it was oily, definitely not wet but did come out "dry dirty"
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Well that is one of the main smoke causes the oil drips onto the exhaust creating smoke.
Check the manifold & downpipes for signs of burnt oil.
Seals would be on startup.
Rings would be whenever under power.
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Here's inside the plug socket if thats any good
http://www.studio62.co.uk/inside.html
Can you get a better picture, showing all the way down...
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Hiya Martin
There is an oil leak that's for sure but the exhaust manifold and downpipe look actually really clean, just rusty. This has happened three times, the forst two were under acceleration, big white plumes of smoke, the third time it seems to be pumping out smoke from startup but only if i rev the engine, so if i just turn it over and start it, nothing, no smoke, if i rev it then it starts to smoke.
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Thing is, oil smoke is blueish in colour...
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This is the best i can do, this is the second plug in, cant get camera any further back
http://www.studio62.co.uk/inplug.html
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Well i just started the car up, it starts fine, no smoke on start up from exhaust so i gave a good rev for a few times but i can't get a damn drop of smoke to come out of it now?, I really revved it as well!!?? It was REALLY billowing last night, caused the people behind me to swerve like mad, like a james bond film, almost funny ( ;D) but this is driving me loopy :-/
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Is it only when cold.....or only when hot.....
Does it occur continuously when it happens or only following a period of engine braking (i.e. throttle shut)
It could be as simple as condenstaion from the exhaust....
Its worth cleaning all the breathers and the throttle body etc as a matter of course....so that we know the engine is not getting pressurised and forcing oil past the rings....
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This is the best i can do, this is the second plug in, cant get camera any further back
http://www.studio62.co.uk/inplug.html
They are dry ;)
Take M_DTM's suggestion, and clean up throttle body and breathers (guide in Mainatenece Guides section)...
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UPDATE
I had a mobile mechanic come out this morning and have a look at the car. Didn't really do anything but did say that it looked like either a head gasket problem or, more likely, he suspects it's a valve that has gone. He ran a diagnostic check but it couldn't really tell him anything(?) but he said if i wanted it fixed it would be a couple of days and £410 for parts and labour.
Not sure if this is a good price or not, i paid £700 for the car in February with one years MOT which sounded a good deal (it's very tidy) but to add another £400 onto this is an R reg Omega wort £1100? Not sure now what to do, really like the car, could break it down and sell it as parts but then i'd love to get it going again...
Thanks for all your help guys
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UPDATE
I had a mobile mechanic come out this morning and have a look at the car. Didn't really do anything but did say that it looked like either a head gasket problem or, more likely, he suspects it's a valve that has gone. He ran a diagnostic check but it couldn't really tell him anything(?) but he said if i wanted it fixed it would be a couple of days and £410 for parts and labour.
Not sure if this is a good price or not, i paid £700 for the car in February with one years MOT which sounded a good deal (it's very tidy) but to add another £400 onto this is an R reg Omega wort £1100? Not sure now what to do, really like the car, could break it down and sell it as parts but then i'd love to get it going again...
Thanks for all your help guys
If you're not losing any coolant, and the oil level is not changing or going mayonaise like then how can he be suggesting head gasket? Did he do a test on the header tank that sniffs for exhaust gases in the coolant? If not I wouldn't be taking his advice at all..
Thats if he's suggesting its going to be £410 for a new head gasket, a bit of skimming and a few hours labour, sounds way over to me. My local mechanic did this on my astra which really had gone - £200 all in...
You need to definitevley find the problem before you start thinking about getting a mechanic to fix whatever it is - my guess is if you gave him the money to do the HG now, you'd still have the problem and be wasting your money..
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What Chris Said.
If your not losing coolant and there is no mayo on the dip stick then its not the head Gasket.
How do the Mechanics come up with these diagnosis's i think they just randomly pick something that sounds good.
Craig
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Well I have taken the advice of people on this site who really know their stuff and i agree with you. He didn't do any tests whatsoever on the car apart from plugging in a computer and then his expression said he didn't really know what he was looking at (i hd already been told how to do this with a paper clip on this very site) Perhaps i should ring round some garages, it was definitely a water problem he said, most likely a valve but could be a head gasket but until he stripped it all down there was no way of telling.
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The reason for it being a water problem he said was due to the white smoke from the exhaust. He said you could smell it also(?) I'm absolutely no loosing coolant although due to an oil leak i have had to top it up each month with a litre bottle.
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The reason for it being a water problem he said was due to the white smoke from the exhaust. He said you could smell it also(?) I'm absolutely no loosing coolant although due to an oil leak i have had to top it up each month with a litre bottle.
You do get a lot of condensation in Omegas, its the most I've ever had in a car but mine is a V6 - in the morning, the first time you start it - its going to smell of steam as the condensation gets heated up and pushed out.. It doesn't explain why you only get it at certain points at a certain speeds..
You are sure that nothings burning inside that backbox are you? That smoke would probably also be white/grey..
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Well another thing if the exhaust gases were going into the coolant system like it did on mine the coolant system would get pressurized
you can normally hear this as the header tank cap hisses after a drive and the system gets up to pressure.
The cap releases pressure at a fixed PSI cant remember what it is i think its printed on the cap somewhere.
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Well we did discover yesterday that the exhaust was blowing but not sure where. I've had some great advice from the people on this site, I think the mechanic may have just been trying to get me have the head gasket "repaired". I'm going to leave the car running for a while and see if it is a condensation problem i can burn the water off and someone did tell me that i could try some stuff that kind of looks like glitter (it's a little like radweld) that you put into the expansion bottle as it could be the beginning of a HG and that might plug the leak? worth a try?
It may just solve the problem temporarily but long enough for me to get to Motorworld and trade it i for another one!!!
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OK
I have just been out in the car on about a 10 mile journey to the parts shop, the car was running normal, no smoke, didn't take it above 50mph. Bought some stuff called K Seal which you pour in the radiator expansion bottle. Drove the car home, got to about 50mph and heard a rattleing/knockin sound coming from the engine, lost a little power, it started to judder and then smoke poured from the exhaust. Eased off the pressure and drove the last couple of miles home with slight, but constant smoke coming from the exhaust. The rattle/knockin is a new thing to add to the list but it is definitely not right and i won't be driving it again.
Plus the K Seal obviously doen't work or it's not something that needs sealing!?
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Your 100% Sure Your Not Losing any Coolant get a marker pen and mark it on a level surface.
If the Smoke is not Oil then it has to be Coolant. Oh try smelling your exhaust gases to see if you can smell antifreeze.
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I'm sure its water, i got out and it really smells like a radiator but i'm losing no water from my expansion tank?. On the last run i did the temperature of the car ran between 92-95 but didn't go over 95.
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nope, just checked again after leaving for 20-30 mins, the water level is right where it should be.
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Could the smoke be unburnt petrol?. If one pot was occasionally not firing, then you would get unburnt petrol out the back. THis happened to me once with an old datsun with a duff head gasket. Water was getting in, and some pots weren't firing. It was quite amusing driving along with your own fog bank following! ;D, although I guess the people behind weren't too happy. Are the plugs OK?
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Is the expansion tank actually doing anything? I mean, does the water circulate through it, tank get hot, pressurise etc? Reason being if the tank is somehow blocked (using things like radweld and k-seal!!, not really recommended...) then water loss will not show on the tank and engine be running without the proper circulation, hence steam from rear, with no aparent coolant loss but the system will be getting progressively drier....
just a thought.....
B
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I thought exactly the same thing but the temperature doesn't seem to increase enough. After 10 miles i thought it would have gotten higher than 95. I will go and check though, how can i tell if there is water anywhere else other than the expansion tank? Is it just a matter of removing pipes to see if there is any water in them? Thanks
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when i opened the expansion tank at the parts store it was hot and pressure had built up though. Water started to come out when i took the lid off. Just thought.
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When the system is cool enough todo so safely, remove the expansion tank cap and then squeeze the large radiator hoses to/from the rad and watch for water movement within the tank. As you squeeze the hose the displaced water should move into the tank. No great need to physically remove a hose to see if its clear....
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ok i just took the lid off and squeezed the pipes and nothing is happening from either one. I squeezed quite hard but no water is being squeezed back into the tank.
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Please forgive my ignorance when it comes to mechanics... I just started the car and removed the expansion tank lid. The water inside it is just sitting there not doing anything while the car is running. Is that normal for that to do that, or should it be pumped continuously around the engine while the car is running?
Graham
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Does the 'smoke' smell of anything? oily (doesn't sound like that from the colour), antifreeze (sweet), petrol...?
If the engine was cold I don't think you would see anything in the header tank. May be wrong though.
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smells like anti freeze - like when a radiator bursts. I took the pipe from the expansion bottle off and poured water down it, it must have gone somewhere because the expansion tank started to fill up so i guess there isn;t a block anywhere.
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SO....it is loosing water.....
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but the expansion tank isn't going down thats the problem. I haven't had to fill it up at all since i bought it. The level was exactly at the arrow on the tank, it still is today.
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Any oil loss.....
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I think he said he was losing oil, but doesn't appear to be camcover seal. Is it dripping off the bottom? What rate is it losing it?
But whatever it is , presumably coolant but he's not losing any :-/, is going up the exhaust rather than being burnt off it.
Have we absolutely confirmed that?
If it was oil I think it would be dark and smelly - unmistakable really.
and what is this noise? something breaking down under load - gasket, electrical? or is it mechanical. Is it temp related or speed/load? or a completely different problem?
Just trying to summarise - quite a challenge this one!
Cheers
Ian
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Huggy, where are you located? I could prob come around and do some tests for you such as compression which would let you know one way or another what the prob is.
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Hi Ian, you've hit the nail on the head, great explanation! It is dripping from the bottom and i guess standing on the driveway i lose about a 5-6cm circle of oil deposited on the floor overnight. I presume it's dripping when drive also. I'm also pretty sure that it's not oil burning, it really smells like a hot car radiator. As for the noise, that's a new one, kind of like a knockin that you would get from tappits (that''s going back a few years) but louder and only under acceleration (about 55mph).
Mr Gaffney, I'm in peterborough, the guy who came out to see me charged me £30 and did nothing!! apart from telling me it would be £450 although he didn't know what the problem was??!!
thanks guys
Gra
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this is tricky; no coolant loss & defo not burning oil so it must be fuel; a dodgy injector or leaking injector would cause it to smoke; on a diesel this would be white smoke but generally the smoke is constant. not sure what colour excessive petrol would be?
or it is burning oil and leaking it too.... 1 litre of oil per month is alot (to get from min - max on the dipstick is usually around 1 litre)...could be thin cheapo oil ( i assume it is if you're using a litre a month?) and as Mark said blocked breathers which is forcing the oil past the pistons and into the chamber?
have you cleaned the breathers? i would do all the cheap/free stuff first so that we can knock them off the list.
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sure, can anyone point me in the right direction of how to clean the breathers (sorry i have no manuals or anything with this car) and i will gladly go and do that if it will help eliminate another possibilty.
thanks Gra
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look in the maintenance guides section; im not sure where you would find them on this engine (i still dont know where mine are) but i would look under the ecotec plastic thing.
hopefully someone can point you in the right direction ifyou cant find anything in the guides section.
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If the tappits are getting loud the oil pressure is dropping in the engine.
I needed a new oil pump and my tappits sounded like a tank engine as there was no pressure in the oil system at all.
I was told that a seal can go and it leaks oil all over and the pressure drops i think its a pressure release valve
Craig
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I could pop down next weekend, help you clean the breathers do a compression test and give you my 10 pence. I have quite a bit of experience on HG blows so I could tell you there and then if it is that.
Unfortunately I cannot do anything before then because of an exercise....... :-X ::)
Personally, and just to confuse you further, I am thinking blocked injector/faulty spark plug with a water pump on the way out...
If it was HG then the smoke would be constant from the first occurance not intermittent like you say - unless the blow was magically resealing itself every now and then.
Gaffers
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sure, can anyone point me in the right direction of how to clean the breathers (sorry i have no manuals or anything with this car) and i will gladly go and do that if it will help eliminate another possibilty.
thanks Gra
try this one. Although its for a 2.2 it will be similar enough (I used it on my 2.0 - improved things no end)
BTW - tip - update your profile to show your location and car, esp engine. Will help people help you without having to hop around the thread.
Cheers
Ian