Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: hotel21 on 06 May 2007, 00:37:07
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I had to deploy an 'energetic' standing start today to get out of the way of an &rsehole who got it wrong and I was in their road. No contact between the cars, thankfully, but I had the worrying effect of severe clutch slip on launch in first and worse, continuing when upchanging to second. You know the thing, car sounds like a slush-o-matic with loads of noise and excess revs but minimal forward motion..... No obvious smoke or twin tyre tracks behind the car, so must think the worst.....
Everything seemed OK afterwards and I even ventured a repeat performance later in the day and all was OK.
Car has 94k or thereabouts and pedal is not the highest I have driven, but is towards the top of its travel.
Did I just get the car really delivering the goods and was asking for more than it could give, or is it probable that its time to be looking for a clutch kit? Car drives fine and, as always, gives the smoothest of changes with little work.....
PS - he was gone by the time I got turned, so remains unchastised..... ;D
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PS - he was gone by the time I got turned, so remains unchastised..... ;D
I'm sure a man of your position could always find out who he/she is! :-X
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PS - he was gone by the time I got turned, so remains unchastised..... ;D
I'm sure a man of your position could always find out who he/she is! :-X
::)
:-X
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PS - he was gone by the time I got turned, so remains unchastised..... ;D
I'm sure a man of your position could always find out who he/she is! :-X
A man in this profession also realises that there are many a*holes out there, and that sometimes people DO make genuine mis-judgements, and that discretion needs to be used as to whether it's worth following up I guess?
As far as the clutch goes, Try pulling away in 4th or something with the handbrake on, see if it lets go?
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A man in this profession also realises that there are many a*holes out there, and that sometimes people DO make genuine mis-judgements, and that discretion needs to be used as to whether it's worth following up I guess? .......
Sorry! Was I being cynical again?
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James - thanks for your constructive and supportive comments. I will try the 4th gear suggestion in the morning. Dunno why I didn't think of it at the time!
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..... I will try the 4th gear suggestion in the morning. Dunno why I didn't think of it at the time!
Or try 'gunning' it in lower gears from start off to make it let go . ...... mind your speed though! :)
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AndyB - what do you think I was doing to make it slip in the first place? Please re-read the original post.
I welcome constructive comment on the specific mechanical problem I posted, but sarky off hand tosh and throw away comments regarding my employ is not....
I know what I do for a living as do a number of other members here, but this does not make me your personal Aunt Sally. I do not need reminded at each and every opportunity by you. Please refrain from doing so.
thanks and good night...... >:(
Admins - as previously advised. >:(
B
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AndyB - what do you think I was doing to make it slip in the first place? Please re-read the original post.
I welcome constructive comment on the specific mechanical problem I posted, but sarky off hand tosh and throw away comments regarding my employ is not....
I know what I do for a living as do a number of other members here, but this does not make me your personal Aunt Sally. I do not need reminded at each and every opportunity by you. Please refrain from doing so.
thanks and good night...... >:(
Admins - as previously advised. >:(
B
Broccie,
I'm really not sure how to read into the above post,
But please accept my personal apologies if anything I mentioned in my reply offended or annoyed you. It really wasn't meant to whatsoever.
I was just trying to emphasise, off the back of Andy's comment, that there is a lot more that would need to be considered, before just simply "finding out who he is!"
It's understandable that you would get tired of your profession being mentioned a lot on the forum (after all - most of us come here to get away from work and unwind - the last thing I'd want is to be reminded about what's going on in the office :)
Cheers
James
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Setting aside your profession for the moment and going back to the clutch...
1. I don’t know much about the manual Omegas, and also I am not familiar with the Omega’s dual-mass flywheel and clutch system. But the below is general advise based on previous experience with manual cars.
2. You did not ‘ask too much’ of the car, a fully engaged clutch should never slip, to the extent that it will actually stall the engine if you ask ‘too much of it’.
3. Mileage doesn’t really come into it, since the vast majority of the clutch wear is done while shifting gears (though there is also some very minimal wear when it is engaged), so long motorway mileage will have little effect on the clutch wear. And if you throw in driving style and gear changing techniques, then the actual mileage means very little. My wife uses her car almost only for the school run, and it needed a new clutch after just 30k… My father on the other hand has the annoying habit of ‘holding’ the car on the clutch in traffic lights when standing on an uphill slope, and yet regularly manages to get 70k out of his… which I find almost unbelievable, though he does do a lot of motorway mileage (or used too, he is retired now) so that must have compensated for it.
4. In most cases slipping clutch is either due to the friction material wearing down and degrading, or to a faulty/broken spring or pressure bearing. However sometimes you get a perfectly good clutch slipping as result of oil leak from the crank rear seal, in which car there is no point in putting a new clutch in before a the leak if fixed, but luckily the Omega isn’t particularly prone to rear crank seal oil leaks. Anyway if you take off the clutch you will see if it is wet.
5. And last, overlooking the obvious… and I am referring to thick mats. These prevent from the clutch pedal being fully engaged and will result in premature clutch failure. Or it is possible that the mat just shifted slightly while you were doing your emergency manoeuvre and prevented you from fully engaging the clutch? Or that another object rolled under the pedal (it happens with the kids toys in wife’s car – very dangerous especially if they get under the brake pedal!). However, going back to the issue of your profession I assume that you will be all too familiar with this sort of thing… I actually added this last paragraph for the benefit of other members who might be following this thread.
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The old trick used to be to drive at about 25 mph and drop it in fifth then floor it.....
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AndyB - what do you think I was doing to make it slip in the first place? Please re-read the original post.
I welcome constructive comment on the specific mechanical problem I posted, but sarky off hand tosh and throw away comments regarding my employ is not............B
I wasn't being particularly 'sarky'! :o I was merely stating that if your clutch had slipped due to your energetic standing start - I had read the original post - then it does imply a fault somewhere within the clutch. Years ago in a Manta B I did the same kind of energetic start and my clutch slipped. I tried to replicate the slip but couldn't & so put it down to something slippery on the road. About a week later, the day before we were due to drive from Pompey to Gatwick to go on holiday, the bugger was slipping so badly that we only just made it. The Ł100 bill on our returm was most welcome - NOT! :( (it was over 20 years ago).
Anyway .... Who's Aunt Sally? Wasn't she something to do with Worzle Gummage? :-?
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Also, the Omega has a hydraulic clutch – again, I am not too familiar with this specific system though I had the on an Alfa Romeo I use to drive. So it is worth checking for any leaks in the master cylinder and slave cylinder area, as well the pipes, and ensuring the reservoir level is not dropping.
There should also be a bleed nipple on the slave cylinder – I don’t know if the Omegas has separate reservoirs for the brake and clutch (the Alfa did), but if they are separate than the clutch fluid should also be replaced from time to time and the air bled,
And last, on the Alfa the position of the slave cylinder and pipes was such that if it leaked it did not actually get into the clutch itself – not sure how it is on the Omega, i.e. if a leaking salve cylinder can contaminate the clutch?
In short, the clutch could also slip if there is a problem with the hydraulic system, though if this was the case then you should have probably felt that through the pedal - i.e. soft and with little 'bite'.
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If it did it only after engaging, weak spring a possibility?
Did the TC come on?
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I tried to replicate the fault today by various means, including a Grand Prix start, 4th gear move off (stalled it a few times!) and trying to move off with the handbrake jammed hard on. Again, it stalled.... Also tried the 20 mph, 5th gear floor it ploy. Car simply pulled away, albeit slowly, with no slip.
There are no spurious carpets, toys or empty sweetie tins that would have interfered with the pedal operation when the vault appeared. The traction control lamp did not illuminate (does work though.... ;) ), the road was dry and there were no tell tale twin black tyre streaks on the road where I could have left a few thousand miles over a few feet. The clutch was simply slipping in first and after a brutal change into second... I had to be swift as the wazzock at fault and causing the sudden movement by me was thundering hard towards my rear at the time. Good job I had an eye on the rear mirror....
Dunno about the weak springs, hence thinking on the miles. I realise that the clutch wear is relative to the number of (bad) gearchanges and not simply the miles covered, but the miles route is measurable. The bad gearchanges prior to my aquisition of the car is not.
Will monitor it meantime and see if it reappears.
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..... and there were no tell tale twin black tyre streaks on the road ......
LSD then?
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..... and there were no tell tale twin black tyre streaks on the road ......
LSD then?
It is possible to get 2 blackies without an LSD. Apparently ::)
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..... and there were no tell tale twin black tyre streaks on the road ......
LSD then?
It is possible to get 2 blackies without an LSD. Apparently ::)
Oh! ;D
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..... and there were no tell tale twin black tyre streaks on the road ......
LSD then?
It is possible to get 2 blackies without an LSD. Apparently ::)
Oh! ;D
Harder with FWD, as the front tends to bounce a bit whilst doing it. Again, apparently....
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I had to be swift as the wazzock at fault and causing the sudden movement by me was thundering hard towards my rear at the time. Good job I had an eye on the rear mirror....
THat is interesting - I would guess than 90% of drivers would have been rear ended. :y
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It is possible to get a clutch slipping by a very aggressive start when otherwise it will handle the full torque of the engine with no problems. Take the scenario that you accelerate to the limiter in 1st gear and then quickly snatch second. The engine may be up at 6500 RPM and there is a serious amount of energy stored in the rotation of the flywheel and crankshaft.
In second the revs may drop to say 5000 RPM (not sure how big a jump there is between 1st and 2nd on a manual Omega). If you are quick you'll have grabbed second and released the clutch before the engine has slowed significantly. The difference in speed between the clutch plates is 1500 RPM. That can't disappear immediately due to the huge energy that needs to be dissipated to slow the flywheel. It must be dissipated by one of the two friction surfaces in the system - between the tyres and the ground or betweeen the clutch plates. If traction was good, maybe the clutch plates started slipping in this instance. It's a toss up between how much torque either friction surface can handle.
My experience is that once a clutch slips a little in this instance, it will continue to slip under engine torque for a second or two before biting, maybe because of heat buildup on the friction material.
Kevin
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Thanks for that, Kevin. Your comments are in line with my thoughts. I think I simply got the power/clutch thing a bit out of sync, such that the revs overtook the bite of the clutch - it was a really rapid dump and go! The very hurried and snatched change to second probably had the same adrenaline input as the launch, hence the continued slipping. All was good afterwards, though.
cheers. :y