Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Tafty on 11 August 2007, 20:01:08
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Hi fellas,
hopefully some advice will help me out. After putting my car back together after chickening out doing the cambelt I have just returned from a one hour run down the motorway and the smell of burning rubber was immense - my kids who where in the car where complaining of feeling dizzy - which is really worrying :'(
The work I have done on it prior to rebuild:-
1. Cleaned out breathers - very slight hiss being heard from the "ecotec" part - is this normal as they where blocked prior to work so not sure??
2. Camcovers - Checked for leaks all around that I can reach - with a paper towel which is coming out clean (car getting to Chopsdad standards ;D)
3. Pipercross air filter fitted
4. Spark Plugs replaced
5. Water pump replaced whilst accessible
6. Oil Pressure switch replaced due to leaking - isn't now :y
7. Wynns Hydraulic lifter application given to engine though smell does not smell of oil issue but rubber.
8. Aux belt (genuine GM) - really does seem to be here that the smell is coming from - do they have a "bedding in" period of a few miles or so - it was the cars first run upto full running temperature. Also the Aux Belt Tensioner was regreased due to being dry - exactly like the cambelt dvd!!
Have left it for 2 hours and gone back to it without any conclusive direction as to what is happening - Have noticed that the engine is very hot - though the temp display is within normal.
Am I just being paranoid or is this something to worry about??
Lee
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Sounds odd. aux belt not rubbing anywhere?
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Sounds odd. aux belt not rubbing anywhere?
Not that I can see but shall go and get my inspection mirror out whilst it's still light - One thing I haven't done just checked where I could see from standing up!!!!. When I regreased the tensioner pulley I just tightened the cover to fully tight - no torque figure mentioned on dvd - not related by any chance??
Lee
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Nothing touching as regards to the aux belt - is there a certain tension the belt should be and how do you measure it?? - Is it possible it's too tight?
Lee
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The aux belt tensioner is spring loaded so it establishes the correct tension. If the belt is the right length...
There was a spate of belts from autovaux earlier this year which were too short leading to failure of the tensioner because they ran too tight.
Kevin
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The aux belt tensioner is spring loaded so it establishes the correct tension. If the belt is the right length...
There was a spate of belts from autovaux earlier this year which were too short leading to failure of the tensioner because they ran too tight.
Kevin
Hi Kevin, belt from VX dealers so am very confident it's the right one.
CAn anyone confirm that the temperature in the bonnet is hot - I mean the plastic cover tray above the radiator - which on mine at the moment is nearly untouchable - engine has been turned off for approx 45 mins!!!
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The aux belt tensioner is spring loaded so it establishes the correct tension. If the belt is the right length...
There was a spate of belts from autovaux earlier this year which were too short leading to failure of the tensioner because they ran too tight.
Kevin
Hi Kevin, belt from VX dealers so am very confident it's the right one.
CAn anyone confirm that the temperature in the bonnet is hot - I mean the plastic cover tray above the radiator - which on mine at the moment is nearly untouchable - engine has been turned off for approx 45 mins!!!
Sounds a bit too hot... ...even my tractopr with all its cooling issues starts to cool off after that time
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Might be worth checking the radiator fans are running ok?
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The aux belt tensioner is spring loaded so it establishes the correct tension. If the belt is the right length...
There was a spate of belts from autovaux earlier this year which were too short leading to failure of the tensioner because they ran too tight.
Kevin
Hi Kevin, belt from VX dealers so am very confident it's the right one.
CAn anyone confirm that the temperature in the bonnet is hot - I mean the plastic cover tray above the radiator - which on mine at the moment is nearly untouchable - engine has been turned off for approx 45 mins!!!
Sounds a bit too hot... ...even my tractopr with all its cooling issues starts to cool off after that time
Cheers TB, am going to drop the coolant tomorrow and maybe see if I'm suffering from a blockage/airlock of some sorts.
On another point - while I've had my head in close to the cambelt cover - every now and then (1/2 mins) I'm hearing a tapping noise coming from within the cambelt cover - now when I had the cover off I never actually dismantled anything other than the water pump which isn't actually inside the cover - am I looking at the early signs of a tensioner failure. Does the belt "flap" or "slap" in sections that would make this characteristic "normal"
Cheers
Lee
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no. investigate further.
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A few years ago I had what turned out to be a cambelt idler bearing failure, one of the symptoms was a hot rubber smell, the other was knocking noise. I was very lucky, the idler bearing had seized. and was rotating on the securing bolt.
Take the cover and check carefully!
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A few years ago I had what turned out to be a cambelt idler bearing failure, one of the symptoms was a hot rubber smell, the other was knocking noise. I was very lucky, the idler bearing had seized. and was rotating on the securing bolt.
Take the cover and check carefully!
That doesn't sound good :(
I assume the only way is to strip right back down and crank by hand on the "crank" and look see at all the rollers - so annoyed I never did this anyway before calling it quits on changing the belt. I notice your's is a 2.6 - have you gone through the experience of the cambelt change on this yourself Mike?
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When is the next cambelt change due? Bear in mind the service interval for cam belt and rollers has been decreased to 40,000 miles / 4 years. Are you confident that it was done when the history says it was done?
IMHO, if you're going to the trouble of taking off the covers to get to the belt, if there's any suspicion of a problem you may as well replace the belt and rollers while you're at it. It will make a real mess of the engine if it fails.
If the belt is slapping around in there it may well have been damaged anyway. If there's a problem it should be obvious but check all runs of the belt are tight, that all tensioner mountings are tight and that the tensioner pully has the alignment marks roughly in the right place.
I wouldn't run the engine until I'd checked this if it were me.
Kevin
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Sorry, just read the post again and realised it's you.
I think it's worth having a look at the belt. If something hasn't gone back together correctly or there's something rattling around in the cam cover that shouldn't be the consequences could be nasty.
Kevin
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Is it auto? If so, when you did the cam covers did you disturb the autobox breather pipe so that it now touches the exhasut manifold? Have you changed or disturbed the cramk senor? same problem.
DO NOT LEAVE THIS
1. It is potentially lethal if the kids are geting headaches from the fumes
2. It is likely to catch fire.
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Am not going to be running the engine again till I've stripped it right down again to see what the break is happening inside the belt cover.
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Is it auto? If so, when you did the cam covers did you disturb the autobox breather pipe so that it now touches the exhasut manifold? Have you changed or disturbed the cramk senor? same problem.
DO NOT LEAVE THIS
1. It is potentially lethal if the kids are geting headaches from the fumes
2. It is likely to catch fire.
It's a manual and is very probable that the crank sensor wiring was disturbed due to activity around it and the location of it.
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Bit of an update.
Stripped it back to the cambelt - nothing untoward found until I started to check for everything for tightness - remembering that I never touched the belt or any idlers etc - well found that the upper idler securing bolt was handtight :o :o :o also the lower idler was just nipped up :o
Timing luckily was only slightly out so have adjusted to bring it back into spec and done god knows how many hand rotations of the crank, checking, double checking and then several more - checking for timing and slack developing in the bolts etc - so at this point in time I believe I am timed and torqued up (2.6 remember too!!!)
Is there anything I should do before putting it all back together - I can take photos of positions if necessary - would be good to get confirmation. Haven't needed to touch the tensioner so left well alone. Am assuming the burning smell may have been the belt as it was obviously not quiet secure.
Feedback greatly appreciated.
cheers
Lee
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You should check that the tensioner pulley is correctly adjusted too, as if slack has been allowed to develop it might not be. Slacken the nut and use an allen key to add tension until the marks line up (for a used belt).
Edited to say: However, I'd check the belt carefully for damage. If there has been the smell of burning rubber the belt is likely damaged.
Kevin
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You should check that the tensioner pulley is correctly adjusted too, as if slack has been allowed to develop it might not be. Slacken the nut and use an allen key to add tension until the marks line up (for a used belt).
Edited to say: However, I'd check the belt carefully for damage. If there has been the smell of burning rubber the belt is likely damaged.
Kevin
Have maticulously checked the belt and can't find anything of note and tensioner adjusted to meet the line - so am going for it and putting back together..... crosses fingers :o
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All back together and the knocking/rattling noise coming from the cambelt cover is still coming in every other minute or so - am able to stop the rattle with a blip of the accelarator :( So am in a firm frame of mind that one of the idlers/tension roller has gone and only shows itself at running speed. So that's the last I will hear my engine running till I can get a mobile VX mechanic to who knows what he is doing to replace the sodding belt and kit for me.
Anyone recommend a mechanic in Liverpool that is cheaper than VX price of £375!!
Lee
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Hello Lee, late reply I'm afraid, my 2.6 is just about due a cambelt change. So far I have only removed the covers, inspected the the idlers and checked the timing marks with the Laser tool. Will be changing in the next couple of weeks.
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Hello Lee, late reply I'm afraid, my 2.6 is just about due a cambelt change. So far I have only removed the covers, inspected the the idlers and checked the timing marks with the Laser tool. Will be changing in the next couple of weeks.
Hi Mike,
well I really believe I've been in full panic mode the last day or so and getting myself in a right stressed state - wanted to use my car to drive to work up in Aberdeen on Wednesday - but obviously not happening so am flying up instead to take the pressure off myself. Have no confidence in the many mobile mechanics I've spoken to tonight due to the lack of knowledge they've had with the VX V6's - I've now just slowly re-read the whole procedure with fresh eyes and a new found growing confidence - so will be returning to VX to obtain a cambelt tensioner kit - minus the belt and source the "marked" belt elsewhere. Then when I return from offshore in a couple of weeks will be making a concerted effort and fit the bloody thing to VX standards. :y
Lee
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Well done. Take it step by step and you'll be fine. Panic is your worst enemy when tackling jobs like this and you're right to take a break from it and return with a fresh head.
I was the same the first few times I did cam belt changes and then one day ended up building an engine with no timing marks anywhere and just a few timing specs that came with the cams. Once you're comfortable with it and you know it's just a matter of time and graft before it's back together it makes a big difference.
Kevin
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Well done. Take it step by step and you'll be fine. Panic is your worst enemy when tackling jobs like this and you're right to take a break from it and return with a fresh head.
I was the same the first few times I did cam belt changes and then one day ended up building an engine with no timing marks anywhere and just a few timing specs that came with the cams. Once you're comfortable with it and you know it's just a matter of time and graft before it's back together it makes a big difference.
Kevin
It was the missus to be honest well she was part of the mindsetting fix. Good old SWMBO!!!! (Gotta be careful here as I know she reads this to see if I've been slating her !!! As if I'd do that!!! :o) Also, after discussing the complexities of the job and the unhelpul conversations with the VX techs on the phone and also some of the mechanics I've spoken too tonight - came to the conclusion that the belt was put on by someone of possibly equal capabilities to myself (maybe less if it was VX ;)) and that they followed the exact same procedure I have been mindlessly staring at for the the last three days but not actually reading it - if you see what I mean :-? But the penny has finally dropped in the know how and the recovery of Nickbats predicament gave me a huge confidance boost and a thorough boot up the arse. So all I've got to do now is go get a Gates "marked" belt and do the job 8-) Hopefully wont be back under stressed circumstances when I do the job in September :o :D
:y
Lee
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Well done. Take it step by step and you'll be fine. Panic is your worst enemy when tackling jobs like this and you're right to take a break from it and return with a fresh head.
I was the same the first few times I did cam belt changes and then one day ended up building an engine with no timing marks anywhere and just a few timing specs that came with the cams. Once you're comfortable with it and you know it's just a matter of time and graft before it's back together it makes a big difference.
Kevin
It was the missus to be honest well she was part of the mindsetting fix. Good old SWMBO!!!! (Gotta be careful here as I know she reads this to see if I've been slating her !!! As if I'd do that!!! :o) Also, after discussing the complexities of the job and the unhelpul conversations with the VX techs on the phone and also some of the mechanics I've spoken too tonight - came to the conclusion that the belt was put on by someone of possibly equal capabilities to myself (maybe less if it was VX ;)) and that they followed the exact same procedure I have been mindlessly staring at for the the last three days but not actually reading it - if you see what I mean :-? But the penny has finally dropped in the know how and the recovery of Nickbats predicament gave me a huge confidance boost and a thorough boot up the arse. So all I've got to do now is go get a Gates "marked" belt and do the job 8-) Hopefully wont be back under stressed circumstances when I do the job in September :o :D
:y
Lee
Tafty,
Sorry I replied in haste to your other thread about mobile mechanics without reading this thread first. I had a torrid time with my cambelt, but I can honestly say that many of my problems were due to a lack of confidence following the initial crisis of an unmarked belt and the discovery of a non-adjustable lower pulley (which few had heard of). What made it worse was the fact that, like you, I felt under time pressure. I got to the stage where I was afraid to do anything. Having Kevin Wood come down and "hold my hand" (metaphorically-speaking!! ;D ;D) was a huge help. No, it was more than that, it was an automotive life-saver.
The problem with cambelts is that you can seriously damage your engine but, having said that, people like Ronnie McBurger are a godsend in that they will tell you time and again that it IS do-able by us amateurs, if we listen to their advice and take our time.
There are a number of important points with regard to my cambelt that I have learned this past week:
1. Use only belts with markings (or paint them on yourself using the old belt for a pattern)
2. If you have the non-adjustable roller setup, you must have an extra tooth of slack between the crank and No. 4 cam to enable the roller to be inserted.
3. Ideally, the locking tool should be set at 10 degrees BTDC (so that it looks vertical) before you insert the roller. The act of then setting it to TDC gives the belt the required tension.
4. For this engine, the Allen key distance on the adjustable pulley should be set at 10mm before crank rotation (NOT the 3-4mm as specified in Haynes for the 2.5)
5. If you get the timing out, do not panic. Take the belt off and then set the crank to about 4 o'clock. This sets the pistons in a configuration so that you can move the cams back to the proper TDC marks without any danger of the valves striking the pistons.
6. Have an extra helper on hand, especially if moving the cams about.
7. Keep your fingers well away from the cams when they are not locked. They have the power to take a digit off no problem.
8. Keep plugging away until everything lines up and stays that way when the engine is cranked round.
At the end of the day, as Kevin pointed out, if the everything lines up at TDC after rotation, the job's a good 'un. How you get there may be a bit hit and miss on these engines but as long as you don't damage the valves (see 3 above), just keep trying until it comes good.
I don't wish to sound like some super cambelt sage. I'm not. All I have learned has come directly from Ronnie and Kevin.
Good luck, mate. :y
Nick
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Well done. Take it step by step and you'll be fine. Panic is your worst enemy when tackling jobs like this and you're right to take a break from it and return with a fresh head.
I was the same the first few times I did cam belt changes and then one day ended up building an engine with no timing marks anywhere and just a few timing specs that came with the cams. Once you're comfortable with it and you know it's just a matter of time and graft before it's back together it makes a big difference.
Kevin
It was the missus to be honest well she was part of the mindsetting fix. Good old SWMBO!!!! (Gotta be careful here as I know she reads this to see if I've been slating her !!! As if I'd do that!!! :o) Also, after discussing the complexities of the job and the unhelpul conversations with the VX techs on the phone and also some of the mechanics I've spoken too tonight - came to the conclusion that the belt was put on by someone of possibly equal capabilities to myself (maybe less if it was VX ;)) and that they followed the exact same procedure I have been mindlessly staring at for the the last three days but not actually reading it - if you see what I mean :-? But the penny has finally dropped in the know how and the recovery of Nickbats predicament gave me a huge confidance boost and a thorough boot up the arse. So all I've got to do now is go get a Gates "marked" belt and do the job 8-) Hopefully wont be back under stressed circumstances when I do the job in September :o :D
:y
Lee
Tafty,
Sorry I replied in haste to your other thread about mobile mechanics without reading this thread first. I had a torrid time with my cambelt, but I can honestly say that many of my problems were due to a lack of confidence following the initial crisis of an unmarked belt and the discovery of a non-adjustable lower pulley (which few had heard of). What made it worse was the fact that, like you, I felt under time pressure. I got to the stage where I was afraid to do anything. Having Kevin Wood come down and "hold my hand" (metaphorically-speaking!! ;D ;D) was a huge help. No, it was more than that, it was an automotive life-saver.
The problem with cambelts is that you can seriously damage your engine but, having said that, people like Ronnie McBurger are a godsend in that they will tell you time and again that it IS do-able by us amateurs, if we listen to their advice and take our time.
There are a number of important points with regard to my cambelt that I have learned this past week:
1. Use only belts with markings (or paint them on yourself using the old belt for a pattern)
2. If you have the non-adjustable roller setup, you must have an extra tooth of slack between the crank and No. 4 cam to enable the roller to be inserted.
3. Ideally, the locking tool should be set at 10 degrees BTDC (so that it looks vertical) before you insert the roller. The act of then setting it to TDC gives the belt the required tension.
4. For this engine, the Allen key distance on the adjustable pulley should be set at 10mm before crank rotation (NOT the 3-4mm as specified in Haynes for the 2.5)
5. If you get the timing out, do not panic. Take the belt off and then set the crank to about 4 o'clockare you turning it through clockwise at all times??. This sets the pistons in a configuration so that you can move the cams back to the proper TDC marks without any danger of the valves striking the pistons.
6. Have an extra helper on hand, especially if moving the cams about.
7. Keep your fingers well away from the cams when they are not locked. They have the power to take a digit off no problem.
8. Keep plugging away until everything lines up and stays that way when the engine is cranked round.
At the end of the day, as Kevin pointed out, if the everything lines up at TDC after rotation, the job's a good 'un. How you get there may be a bit hit and miss on these engines but as long as you don't damage the valves (see 3 above), just keep trying until it comes good.
I don't wish to sound like some super cambelt sage. I'm not. All I have learned has come directly from Ronnie and Kevin.
Good luck, mate. :y
Nick
Cheers Nick just what I was after TBH - the more information directly related to the 2.6 is of enormous help. I will probably be on when I'm going through with the install in September when I get home.
Cheers matey :y :y
Lee
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Tafty,
When the belt is off, you can turn the crank anticlockwise. Of course, you'll need to turn it anticlockwise anyway to get the 10 degree BTDC setup.
It'll be fine, mate. Trust me, I'm a muppet! ;D ;D ;D
Cheers,
Nick
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Nobody else spotted the deliberate mistake then?
On non of these cars do you line the tensioner lines up. On the 2.5 and 3.0 you take then inner line up by 3-4 mm. On the 2.6 you go up 10mm!
If you just lined the lines up, you will have 10mm too much slack and hence the slapping.
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Hi all,
I did my 2.6 with the fixed lower idler at the weekend. I have done several 2.5's before with no problems.
I took me 7 times to get the timing right!! It always seemed to be 1 tooth out, I finally got it spot on by fitting the belt lined up with the crank at TDC, then lined it up with the marks on the cams (as normal), I then rotated the crankshaft back 10 degrees (cam locking tools still on) so the crank locking tool is vertical this then gives you enough slack to fit the lower idler, when this is fitted I returned the crank back to TDC, rotated every thing and the timing was spot on.
Will take me half the time next time, I do a lot of miles so it wont be that long.
Regards,
Frank.
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That's the correct procedure according to the VX instructions. Nickbat and I ended up with it 1 tooth out after trying that several times. I think the belt run from the tensioner roller to the crank was getting too tight back at 10deg btdc and it was slipping a tooth without us noticing.
Anyway, having established that the whole lot is out by one tooth, it's easy to lock the cams up again at TDC positions and slip the crank pulley round one tooth on the belt, before tensioning the belt again, removing the cam locks, crank 2 turns and checking. Seemed easier than starting again at any rate.
As you say, once you've got the knack and deciphered the instructions it's going to be a lot easier next time.
Kevin