Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: GastronomicKleptomaniac on 26 October 2007, 18:19:18
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My local friendly mechanic's going to do my timing belt and kit. Now, I was disappointed, he didn't look even slightly nervous when I said "V6 Omega timing belt" (compared to my old boss, who had a phone enquiry for the same, screamed, said "I don't want to touch it" and hung up...).
So, apart from the belt... what else is worth changing while he's in there - water pump, aux belt, etc...?
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Timing belt KIT - tensioner, 2 x idlers, belt.
Water pump
Aux belt
Check the aux belt tensioner.
Make sure whoever does the work
1) uses the correct setting kit for this specific V6, and gets the timing bang on.
2) torques the pulleys up correctly, avioding premature failure.
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Timing belt KIT - tensioner, 2 x idlers, belt.
Water pump
Aux belt
Check the aux belt tensioner. get them to regrease the ball bearings and inner race too - both sides - really easy job and saves trouble in the future :y
Make sure whoever does the work
1) uses the correct setting kit for this specific V6, and gets the timing bang on.
2) torques the pulleys up correctly, avioding premature failure.
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My local friendly mechanic's going to do my timing belt and kit. Now, I was disappointed, he didn't look even slightly nervous when I said "V6 Omega timing belt" (compared to my old boss, who had a phone enquiry for the same, screamed, said "I don't want to touch it" and hung up...).
So, apart from the belt... what else is worth changing while he's in there - water pump, aux belt, etc...?
Cambelt and cambelt tensioners need replacing together. If the guy does not have a GM V6 cam locking/timing kit, walk away, whatever he may say.
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My local friendly mechanic's going to do my timing belt and kit. Now, I was disappointed, he didn't look even slightly nervous when I said "V6 Omega timing belt" (compared to my old boss, who had a phone enquiry for the same, screamed, said "I don't want to touch it" and hung up...).
So, apart from the belt... what else is worth changing while he's in there - water pump, aux belt, etc...?
:-? Seriously, he may be a good mecahanic and want to help you out but if he has never done one before or doesn't have the right tools then let him down gently.... :)
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My local friendly mechanic's going to do my timing belt and kit. Now, I was disappointed, he didn't look even slightly nervous when I said "V6 Omega timing belt" (compared to my old boss, who had a phone enquiry for the same, screamed, said "I don't want to touch it" and hung up...).
So, apart from the belt... what else is worth changing while he's in there - water pump, aux belt, etc...?
Even these days there are some mechanics who do know thier stuff and never use cam locking kits, didnt someone say they used clothes pegs. Torque settings for all cars manufactured are avilable in one publication together with all other tech specs. Locking kits tend to be used by less experianced newer type mechanics (the part changers)
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My local friendly mechanic's going to do my timing belt and kit. Now, I was disappointed, he didn't look even slightly nervous when I said "V6 Omega timing belt" (compared to my old boss, who had a phone enquiry for the same, screamed, said "I don't want to touch it" and hung up...).
So, apart from the belt... what else is worth changing while he's in there - water pump, aux belt, etc...?
Even these days there are some mechanics who do know thier stuff and never use cam locking kits, didnt someone say they used clothes pegs. Torque settings for all cars manufactured are avilable in one publication together with all other tech specs. Locking kits tend to be used by less experianced newer type mechanics (the part changers)
No disrespect intended, but that is exactly the attitude I was trying to warn about. Some mechanics think that doing the GM V6 can be done without a locking/timing kit, same as most other engines. It can't. The locking/timing kit is essential.
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My local friendly mechanic's going to do my timing belt and kit. Now, I was disappointed, he didn't look even slightly nervous when I said "V6 Omega timing belt" (compared to my old boss, who had a phone enquiry for the same, screamed, said "I don't want to touch it" and hung up...).
So, apart from the belt... what else is worth changing while he's in there - water pump, aux belt, etc...?
Even these days there are some mechanics who do know thier stuff and never use cam locking kits, didnt someone say they used clothes pegs. Torque settings for all cars manufactured are avilable in one publication together with all other tech specs. Locking kits tend to be used by less experianced newer type mechanics (the part changers)
No disrespect intended, but that is exactly the attitude I was trying to warn about. Some mechanics think that doing the GM V6 can be done without a locking/timing kit, same as most other engines. It can't. The locking/timing kit is essential.
I wholly agree with Jaime (yes TB, you can have that in writing ;D )
Only point to add, is that the locking kit for the V6, is also a SETTING kit, and is needed due to the nature of the micro-adjustable rollers...
You CANNOT get this right without the kit.
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Who is this idiot "Justme", please listen to the other more knowledgeable members.
I have just had the cam belt changed (including rollers, tensioner) the work was done by a Vauxhall service manager (not Vauxhall price) who used the full fitting kit, as already said it acts as a checking fixture as well.
regards
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well what can i say, ive never used a locking kit on a gm v6. ive always been under the impressiion that the locking kit is one of those items that make a fiddly time consuming job a doddle. what ive always done is adjust the rh bank onto its alignment marks via the rh adjustable roller with the crank on tdc,then rotate by the engine by hand acouple of times then bring the lh bank on line by adjusting the centre adjustable roller. where as with a kit you just lock the cams (on a couple of occasions ive used mole grips to do the same job ,lightly applied) and then lock the crank, change the belt and voila job done.each to there own i suppose, ive never bought the kit because i dont make a living at this, i just do it for fun.ps ive done approx 12- 15 engines like this including yesterdays 2.5 v6 WITHOUT any issues.now sits back with popcorn to await the furore and wrath of the forum
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well what can i say, ive never used a locking kit on a gm v6. ive always been under the impressiion that the locking kit is one of those items that make a fiddly time consuming job a doddle. what ive always done is adjust the rh bank onto its alignment marks via the rh adjustable roller with the crank on tdc,then rotate by the engine by hand acouple of times then bring the lh bank on line by adjusting the centre adjustable roller. where as with a kit you just lock the cams (on a couple of occasions ive used mole grips to do the same job ,lightly applied) and then lock the crank, change the belt and voila job done.each to there own i suppose, ive never bought the kit because i dont make a living at this, i just do it for fun.ps ive done approx 12- 15 engines like this including yesterdays 2.5 v6 WITHOUT any issues.now sits back with popcorn to await the furore and wrath of the forum
Sassanach - as you know, I have a huge respect for your abilities :)
Few things...
The markings on the rear cam cover plate are only a guide to initially get belt on roughly, not accurate.
Getting exact TDC without the crank lock is always going to involve guesswork.
The engine is not 'safe' at tdc, so the cam locks are easier than holding 4 cams.
Cam timing needs the timing tool, as you can't get accurate without.
Whatever you do one your own car is one thing, but if you paid someone, you would expect them to use the proper kit (seeing as its pretty impossible to get it spot on without the kit). The number we have seen that are out shows how many are being done carelessly...
BTW - Sassanach, if ever you need the locking (and timing) kit, give me a shout... ....it would be interesting to pop off the cover, and test with the kit to see how close you got it :y
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...............now sits back with popcorn to await the furore and wrath of the forum
;D ;D ;D ;D
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Who is this idiot "Justme", please listen to the other more knowledgeable members.
I have just had the cam belt changed (including rollers, tensioner) the work was done by a Vauxhall service manager (not Vauxhall price) who used the full fitting kit, as already said it acts as a checking fixture as well.
regards
Just a member trying to help others. I believe he is wrong in this case, but we are all entitled to our own opinions. We all get it wrong sometimes ;)
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*looks at open can, and worms everywhere* :D
Cheers guys, appreciate the advice. I'll be ringing him tomorrow, I'll ask him then. If not, it'll be either finding a decent specialist... or a VX stealer...
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Before I become fully competent with Omegas, when I was at the "have a go, experimental" stage, I fitted a V6 cambelt kit following the Haynes manual, which said it could be done without (but would need checking afterwards).
It's only now, I know why it ran like a bag of nails!
Knowing what I know now, I would always use the correct kit.
I recon I must have done near on 30+ cambelts on the Omega for other people, and 28 of them probably weren't bang on!
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Before I become fully competent with Omegas, when I was at the "have a go, experimental" stage, I fitted a V6 cambelt kit following the Haynes manual, which said it could be done without (but would need checking afterwards).
It's only now, I know why it ran like a bag of nails!
Knowing what I know now, I would always use the correct kit.
I recon I must have done near on 30+ cambelts on the Omega for other people, and 28 of them probably weren't bang on!
Was that before or after you had done them? ;)
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My local friendly mechanic's going to do my timing belt and kit. Now, I was disappointed, he didn't look even slightly nervous when I said "V6 Omega timing belt" (compared to my old boss, who had a phone enquiry for the same, screamed, said "I don't want to touch it" and hung up...).
So, apart from the belt... what else is worth changing while he's in there - water pump, aux belt, etc...?
Even these days there are some mechanics who do know thier stuff and never use cam locking kits, didnt someone say they used clothes pegs. Torque settings for all cars manufactured are avilable in one publication together with all other tech specs. Locking kits tend to be used by less experianced newer type mechanics (the part changers)
No disrespect intended, but that is exactly the attitude I was trying to warn about. Some mechanics think that doing the GM V6 can be done without a locking/timing kit, same as most other engines. It can't. The locking/timing kit is essential.
None taken TB I did say "experianced" I would not recommend anyone without experiance to take on such a job with or without a kit, having a kit does not automatically give you the ability. And I would add, this site provides more than enough info on the subject, not to mention the dvd which incidentally I also have together with the sp kit not to mention a few others. Perhaps a little bit more care by some, in reading what was actually written and the context in which it was written may be called for.
"My local friendly mechanic's going to do my timing belt and kit. Now, I was disappointed, he didn't look even slightly nervous when I said "V6 Omega timing belt"
Which does rather highlight what I was trying to put across in the first place.
I wonder what the cost would be to buy timming kits for all the vehichles requiring them. It just does not happen in the real world. They dont but the book of lies either.
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Even these days there are some mechanics who do know thier stuff and never use cam locking kits, didnt someone say they used clothes pegs. Torque settings for all cars manufactured are avilable in one publication together with all other tech specs. Locking kits tend to be used by less experianced newer type mechanics (the part changers)
Yep, all the values are available from sources such as Autodata but I have also seen plenty of errors in them as well, even GM make mistakes and have to send out tech notes that supercede their original guidance.
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Even these days there are some mechanics who do know thier stuff and never use cam locking kits, didnt someone say they used clothes pegs. Torque settings for all cars manufactured are avilable in one publication together with all other tech specs. Locking kits tend to be used by less experianced newer type mechanics (the part changers)
Yep, all the values are available from sources such as Autodata but I have also seen plenty of errors in them as well, even GM make mistakes and have to send out tech notes that supercede their original guidance.
So what price the book of lies.
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AFAIK most independant small garages rely quite heavily on autodata/TIS type software for their information, and some of it is quite accurate.
Autodata for the Omega-B CLEARLY states that special tools are required, and proceeds to list them. Although I have not heard of "kent moore" tools, the descriptions of each item matches the tool sets I have seen. The itemised work sheet describes the use of these tools at the appropriate time.
I would therefore expect any work done on my car to follow such instructions ...... :)
I cannot see how even the most experienced "eye" can line up 4 items and check tension accurately without any "measuring" device
just my 2.7 p's (inc VAT) :)
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AFAIK most independant small garages rely quite heavily on autodata/TIS type software for their information, and some of it is quite accurate.
Autodata for the Omega-B CLEARLY states that special tools are required, and proceeds to list them. Although I have not heard of "kent moore" tools, the descriptions of each item matches the tool sets I have seen. The itemised work sheet describes the use of these tools at the appropriate time.
I would therefore expect any work done on my car to follow such instructions ...... :)
I cannot see how even the most experienced "eye" can line up 4 items and check tension accurately without any "measuring" device
just my 2.7 p's (inc VAT) :)
IIRC Kent Moore are the makers of the kit the dealers are supplied by Vaux
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there are four measuring devices one above each cam and the tension is preset :)
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AFAIK most independant small garages rely quite heavily on autodata/TIS type software for their information, and some of it is quite accurate.
Autodata for the Omega-B CLEARLY states that special tools are required, and proceeds to list them. Although I have not heard of "kent moore" tools, the descriptions of each item matches the tool sets I have seen. The itemised work sheet describes the use of these tools at the appropriate time.
I would therefore expect any work done on my car to follow such instructions ...... :)
I cannot see how even the most experienced "eye" can line up 4 items and check tension accurately without any "measuring" device
just my 2.7 p's (inc VAT) :)
IIRC Kent Moore are the makers of the kit the dealers are supplied by Vaux
It was the kit used by vauxhall, TB was it Gethin (N Wales/Liverpool) on the other side who worked on engine warranty returns at Vauxhall, it is the kit he uses and charges £120 inc parts to do. And was it not McB who arranged with his local motor factors to supply genuine kits @ £65 just before you started this site.
my final words on this subject and to set the cat amongest the pigeons.
James was it not the laser kit you used to use :question, no dought it is listed. There is no micro adjustment on the meega. When you come across the vernier adjustment youll know you have arrived.
I know quite a few EXPERIANCED people who I would trust implicitly to change a belt without a kit. That is far from everyone.
When I see the meega engine I feel like leaning over and just lifting it out.
Many would have seen another way to change the belt : To cut the existing in half : put on the new and then cut away the rest of the old job done. Who is to say that is wrong if it works :y
for as many problems that exist there will be as many solutions. Thats what makes us all diffrent.
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Many would have seen another way to change the belt : To cut the existing in half : put on the new and then cut away the rest of the old job done.
This used to work on the older 8v engines, but cannot work on the 16v / 24v V6, due to the lips on the pulleys.
I know quite a few EXPERIANCED people who I would trust implicitly to change a belt without a kit
That's your choice, but, no amount of experience, and no good an "eye" will get the crank dead on TDC, hence you will never be sure the cams are correctly aligned.
Getting the marks on the pulleys in line with the cutouts on the covers on the V6 is NOT accurate. No amount of experience will be any match for precision-engineered tools when timing up the V6.
There is no micro adjustment on the meega.
Must disagree. Once the belt is installed, the banks of cams can be rotated through extremely small fractions, (using the adjustable idlers), to get the valve timing spot on. This is the micro adjustment.
James was it not the laser kit you used to use
I bought one, but once I realised how awful it was, I never ever used it to time up a car. I ended up returning it, and buying a SP kit, which is much better.
Who is to say that is wrong if it works
Just becaue it works, doesn't mean it's done properly, or was a good job. When I checked the timing on my own V6, the tensioner was set way off, and the cams were a few degrees out. This "worked".. in the sense that it could be driven etc.. but it was still definately wrong!
I know quite a few EXPERIANCED people who I would trust implicitly to change a belt without a kit.
I also know some extremely experienced people, including a handful of members here - but I still wouldn't let them fit my cambelt without a kit!
for as many problems that exist there will be as many solutions. Thats what makes us all diffrent.
Agreed - although my personal solution would be to buy a timing kit ;)
We will have to agree to disagree, because I 100% maintain that you will not get one of these engines right without a timing kit.
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Many would have seen another way to change the belt : To cut the existing in half : put on the new and then cut away the rest of the old job done. Who is to say that is wrong if it works :y
for as many problems that exist there will be as many solutions. Thats what makes us all diffrent.
Seen that idea mentioned before for other engines and I can see the simplicity of it, the only thing that would concern me doing it that way would be that the main failure point is the tensioners and they aren't getting replaced.
Also the tensioners need to be adjusted to suit the belt ie. reusing a belt or fitting a new one as I understand it, obviously this could be easily overlooked fitting a belt in this way.
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kin ell this is gonna run and run and im out of popcorn ;D
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..reminds me of the pic somewhere of someone who had cable tied the cams together rather than locking them... each to his own I suppose ;)
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You need the kit for this engine....anybody who does it without is NOT doing a thorough job and can not guarantee the timing or tension......and you dont want either of these wrong. Plus, the belt suppliers wont support any warranty claim unless the job is doen using the correct tools.
And yes, the cams are infinately adjustable (all be it in pairs) on this power plant.
And its also pretty suprising how many I see where the timing is wrong and where the cam sprockets have been covered in dabs of white paint.
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is it the case that vauxhall did away with the right hand adjustable roller on the 2.6/3.2 engines ??
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is it the case that vauxhall did away with the right hand adjustable roller on the 2.6/3.2 engines ??
On the late ones yes, interestingly I have found that this adjuster on the later oil pump engines (approx post 98) pretty much always points at 12 Oclock when setup on the adjustable ones so it may be that the designers had noted this to......it does still have the adjustable idler for getting the two banks aligned which is going to be key to get good load sharing between both banks.
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would it be fair to say then, that the rh bank is now "fixed"in position ie not infinately adjustable and the lh bank can only be adjusted in relation to the rh bank and not the crankshaft :)
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I'm off for another bag of popcorn ;D
My own view remains that the GM V6 cannot be done 'properly' without the kit, unlike all the other engines I've worked on.
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how do i get one of those smileys like jamesv6cdx has with the horns sticking out of the noggin? :)
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how do i get one of those smileys like jamesv6cdx has with the horns sticking out of the noggin? :)
Dunno, but I've just been to the shop and bought a jumbo family sized pack of popcorn, want some?
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Vauxhall and Haynes say you need the tool, but hey you can undo a nut with a pair of pliers and undo screws with a knife if you're a cowboy.....
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how do i get one of those smileys like jamesv6cdx has with the horns sticking out of the noggin? :)
You mean a [smiley=evil.gif]
To left of box where you type is a box 'More Smilies' - should be obvious from there :y
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how do i get one of those smileys like jamesv6cdx has with the horns sticking out of the noggin? :)
You mean a [smiley=evil.gif]
To left of box where you type is a box 'More Smilies' - should be obvious from there :y
Oh Yes!
[smiley=vrolijk_26.gif] [smiley=bath.gif] [smiley=beer.gif] [smiley=dankk2.gif]
I never noticed them before.