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Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: PaulyQ on 17 December 2007, 10:46:16

Title: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: PaulyQ on 17 December 2007, 10:46:16
Got a 99 mini facelift elite 2.5 V6 automatic, and it has give up the ghost.

When I engage the gears(doesn't matter which), it doesn't go anywhere....well it does but you haver to rev the tits off the car to move 1 yard.

Any idea what could be wrong?
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: ffcgary1 on 17 December 2007, 11:04:28
Check the fluid level first, if ok then try changing the box filter and fluid, then if no better a 2nd hand ar30 will do the trick, and before you fit that change the trust washer to make sure everything is tip top and dandy. :y
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: PaulyQ on 17 December 2007, 11:07:19
cheers mate. Seems a bit more severe than filter/fluid but could be wrong so will check it out.

2nd hand AR30's .... are they the standard box or better?
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: ffcgary1 on 17 December 2007, 11:24:08
AR30 WAS THE BOX FITTED TO THE 3.0, AND THEREFORE ABLE TO TAKE MORE POWER AND THE AR25 WHICH YOUR CAR HAS GOT IS A BIT WEAK. :y
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: PaulyQ on 17 December 2007, 11:28:20
just need to find somebody to fit one or to play about with mine, autobox specialists are extremely thin on the ground up here.
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 17 December 2007, 11:41:49
Its an AR35.....there is no AR30.

The fault sounds like a lack of fluid or a lack of pressure which is affecting the torque converter operation.
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: ffcgary1 on 17 December 2007, 11:57:52
Sorry my mistake, your quite correct mark as usual,  Whata mistaka to maka. :-X
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: PaulyQ on 17 December 2007, 12:53:22
Had car in for a major service last week and have just been on the phone to the geeza and he reports that there was no leaking at all from gearbox and he didn't know how to top up gearbox levels, which is fair comment since he never works on them. To be fair I don't think the box will have ever been topped up since new apart from one of the vauxhall services at maybe 40,000 miles.

Anyways, will report back
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: PaulyQ on 17 December 2007, 13:59:59
How would I change filter box and does it need special tools?

Asking as my mechanic hasn't got a clue how to do it.

found out how to check the autobox level via the guides but have a question... where is the oil level plug? When it comes to auto's both me and the mechanic are complete noobs.

cheers
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: Dave-C on 17 December 2007, 19:56:46
Did it just happen or has it shown signs of failure, i.e. losing drive when going round a roundabout, up a hill etc... trying to define if it's a fluid level issue or not...
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: TheBoy on 17 December 2007, 20:00:34
If you've really let the autobox slip, its will be knackered.  If it has only just happened, and you haven't let it slip too much, you may get away with a fluid change
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: Dave-C on 17 December 2007, 20:11:26
Fingers and toes crossed for you, however there's an AR35 in Shropshire....  I've tested it on a scrapper prior to it being stripped..
Details on this link > > > http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1194209015/26#26

DC
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: PaulyQ on 17 December 2007, 22:23:34
1st thing... went around roundabout and it went. Was getting a tad lumpy on changes as well, so am definately erring on the side of caution and thinking it's the levels.

@theBoy: It did around 10 maybe 20 yards or so with it slipping. Had to do that so I wasn't on roundabout....think that will have killed it?? It still "clunks" when I put it into gear, just doesn't go anywhere.

After reading a bit I understand it's best to top up the oil when the oil is warm.... hows that going to happen if I can't take the car for a drive to warm it up?? Would it be best to top up the oil as best as possible.... take it for a drive(assuming the gearbox isn't a goner) and then re-top up?

As for filter box etc.... any links on removal/replacing?

Cheers chaps.

Thanks Dave C for the link.... will give him a phone if new box needed.
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: Entwood on 17 December 2007, 22:32:03
No expert me .. but if it was mine I'd drop both sumps and throw away any remaining fluid as well as changing the filter, then replenish the fluid, run it for 500 miles - if it works ok - and then change the fluid again. Damned sight cheaper than replacing the box IMHO  :)

Level check how to :

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1152783586

Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: PaulyQ on 17 December 2007, 22:34:57
Thanks Entwood.

Location of sumps? Tools needed? No expert myself and need to try and explain this to the guy that is going to be doing the car.

Just hoping that the box is not dead.
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: Kevin Wood on 17 December 2007, 22:35:24
Quote
After reading a bit I understand it's best to top up the oil when the oil is warm.... hows that going to happen if I can't take the car for a drive to warm it up?? Would it be best to top up the oil as best as possible.... take it for a drive(assuming the gearbox isn't a goner) and then re-top up?

Yep. Top it up with the engine running and box cold as best you can, move it through each position on the gear selector with engine still running, top up again if it'll take more, then take it for a gentle drive. Chances are the fluid will expand when hot so when you check it hot it'll actually lose some fluid.

There's a HOWTO on gearbox fluid change which covers draining and changing / cleaning the filter.

I would be inclined to see if it recovers with a fluid top-up before going too much further.

Kevin
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: Dave-C on 18 December 2007, 18:15:41
Quote
1st thing... went around roundabout and it went. Was getting a tad lumpy on changes as well, so am definately erring on the side of caution and thinking it's the levels.

@theBoy: It did around 10 maybe 20 yards or so with it slipping. Had to do that so I wasn't on roundabout....think that will have killed it?? It still "clunks" when I put it into gear, just doesn't go anywhere.

After reading a bit I understand it's best to top up the oil when the oil is warm.... hows that going to happen if I can't take the car for a drive to warm it up?? Would it be best to top up the oil as best as possible.... take it for a drive(assuming the gearbox isn't a goner) and then re-top up?

As for filter box etc.... any links on removal/replacing?

Cheers chaps.

Thanks Dave C for the link.... will give him a phone if new box needed.

Hi PaulyQ, Notice that you're from Hartlepool...  If you have to come to Shropshire to collect you could borrow a Canoe to come in, there's a river close by ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Sorry, I thought it was funny....  really hope the top up works....  Best of Luck..DC
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: PaulyQ on 18 December 2007, 20:30:25
Yes Dave.... Hartlepool... twinned with Panama  ;D
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: sassanach on 18 December 2007, 23:24:24
 check the oil level if correct then the fun really starts. :-X
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: PaulyQ on 18 December 2007, 23:31:04
Hi Sass,

NOT the thing to say  :P

If the box still works I will thank Santa personally for an early xmas pressie. Got it booked in for the next few days to get sorted (levels/filters).

If knackered, ar35 box on standby with Thrust Washer.

It's either £100 or £400++  ...... I know which one I'm going for!!  :y
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: sassanach on 18 December 2007, 23:39:02
not doing it yourself then? it isnt that terrible :-?
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: PaulyQ on 18 December 2007, 23:58:05
nah man, not doing this job myself.  :o

Got a mechanic that rarely works on auto's doing it for me....trying to get as much info as possible to help him out.

If I had the time I would give this a crack myself, but just haven't got the time due to me being at work and it being a bit dark when I get home. Costing me £60 to get the car to the mechanics as it is, not going to risk towing the car in it's present state so have paid for a truck to transport it the 4 miles to the garage.

Level filler is just behind the cat(obviously on the gearbox), is that correct?

If the car starts to work after topping up the oil he is then going to change the filter, myself... I'll do the selector switch on saturday. I will then makes some enquiries about getting the software updated on the box to smooth it out a bit.

Ho Hum... it's a wonderful life!!
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: sassanach on 19 December 2007, 00:08:58
check oil level then if correct connect a 0-200 psi guage to the test point on the n/s of the box just behind the bell housing(10 or 11mm af spanner)if i recall correctly you should see approx 40 psi at idle 140 psi at stall speed.  pump should operate regardless of condition of clutches etc.no pressure=knackered pump OR blocked filter.filter easy, pump =box out. let me know how you get on.
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: Golfbuddy on 19 December 2007, 08:27:00
Quote
Quote
1st thing... went around roundabout and it went. Was getting a tad lumpy on changes as well, so am definately erring on the side of caution and thinking it's the levels.

@theBoy: It did around 10 maybe 20 yards or so with it slipping. Had to do that so I wasn't on roundabout....think that will have killed it?? It still "clunks" when I put it into gear, just doesn't go anywhere.

After reading a bit I understand it's best to top up the oil when the oil is warm.... hows that going to happen if I can't take the car for a drive to warm it up?? Would it be best to top up the oil as best as possible.... take it for a drive(assuming the gearbox isn't a goner) and then re-top up?

As for filter box etc.... any links on removal/replacing?

Cheers chaps.

Thanks Dave C for the link.... will give him a phone if new box needed.

Hi PaulyQ, Notice that you're from Hartlepool...  If you have to come to Shropshire to collect you could borrow a Canoe to come in, there's a river close by ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Sorry, I thought it was funny....  really hope the top up works....  Best of Luck..DC

But, leave the monkeys alone. They all look like that around Dave's way anyhow.  ;D ;D
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: PaulyQ on 20 December 2007, 14:50:06
Not looking good, not good at all!!

Have had the box drained and not a great deal of crap in the sump. Oil was black though and smelly (burnt smell according to mechanic):(

Oil was topped up and box is still not connecting at all... it wants to connect but just doesn't seem to have the pressure to do it.

 Torque Converter, pump or Full box job?    I'm inclined to think the box has gone kaput with the oil that colour, or as mentioned above could be a box out and pump job.

Better to get the pump checked or get a new box?
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: PaulyQ on 20 December 2007, 18:32:57
Found a second hand box for £200, that's a good start, I can pick it up tomorrow, the next thing is to get somebody to fit it.... especially over the next few days since it's Xmas weekend.

Don't think I'll have till January :(
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: sassanach on 20 December 2007, 19:42:21
i only wish i was closer,i'd love to know what happened to the old one.£200 bit steep though!!
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: PaulyQ on 20 December 2007, 19:56:49
£200 - steep. Personally thought it was quite reasonable(that's with everything I'll need or so I am led to believe and selector switch). That's my last option.

Have just had a look through yellow pages and found an autobox specialist not too far away.

Any bets on what it could be that is wrong?

If the oil is black was under the impression that the box was probably goosed!! :-X

@Sassenach... you are quite possible too much of a distance away.... erm around 300 miles to be exact, would take 5 hours approx to get here. ::)
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: PaulyQ on 21 December 2007, 15:44:09
OK... before I go out and buy a box for £200 and then pay £300 to fit it............ is there anyway to determine what the most probable cause is. Would rather go down the route of methodical diagnosis than just forking out money.

As mentioned above... if the oil was black does that mean a new box?

It is trying to engage in both forward and reverse gears but seems to just cut short of fully engaging.... does that seem indicative of the Torque Converter?

Would ANY of this possibly be a knackered Selector Switch?

Just looking for a few answers before fully committing as I'm trying to save money, xmas and all that.


 Cheers chaps
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: Kevin Wood on 21 December 2007, 15:59:13
I guess a fluid pressure test is the next step in the diagnosis. Either way, it's going to be a gearbox internal problem and the state of the fluid might be indicative of a major problem :-/

Kevin
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: PaulyQ on 21 December 2007, 16:57:20
So... instead of farting around I may just opt for the other gearbox.

Swapping a box over will be quicker than looking for a needle in a haystack I guess ?? :-?
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: Kevin Wood on 21 December 2007, 17:28:41
If you can find a known good gearbox then that's what I'd do.

Kevin
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: sassanach on 21 December 2007, 20:25:20
how many miles has this box done?
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: PaulyQ on 21 December 2007, 21:50:27
If it's the original box it's done 100,000 or near as dammit - unknown history on the box(i.e. fluid changes etc)
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: sassanach on 24 December 2007, 14:06:37
hows this one progressing?
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: philayl on 24 December 2007, 14:58:11
I had exactly the same problem, same symptoms, afraid it was a goosed gearbox. Cost me £300 for a second hand gearbox off a known 38,000 miler, with 12 months warranty.
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: PaulyQ on 24 December 2007, 21:31:26
Will be after the new year when I get the motor back :(... will be a second hand box job for def by the looks of it... that will cost me £200, then the fitting is £300.

Hopefully back in the first week of new year to report back. I just the guy who is doing the motor changes the Thrust Washer(whatever that does) and is nice enough to clean out the selector switch as well.
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: PaulyQ on 28 December 2007, 23:07:35
Well, went to see the car today to see what was happening, guy has emptied the gearbox oil(as he was taking off the gearbox) and again it is black (after replacing it all last week), it looks like both reverse and forward clutch has burnt out (does that make sense to anybody??).

So.... new gearbox on Monday and hopefully my car back :)
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: sassanach on 28 December 2007, 23:10:58
enlighten please there are 3 forward clutches and one reverse.
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: PaulyQ on 28 December 2007, 23:15:06
Quote
Enlighten please

Wish I could...Guy just mentioned just that mate.... forward and reverse clutch was knackered.

Now, call me cynical here, but the car won't engage into ANY gear so 3 forward clutches conking out is pretty much impossible (tried every which way to get the gears engaging - snow mode, sport etc... ), I am assuming it is just one of the forward gears and reverse.

Spoke to the guy who checked my filter and refilled last week and he said there was some muck and rubbish in the filters but nothing substantial, now I don't know the internals of a gearbox so don't know if something failed and decided to go for a float around the box and ruin things?

Question.... thrust washer..... what is it ... what does it do?
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: sassanach on 28 December 2007, 23:16:46
has this gearbox been dismantled?
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: PaulyQ on 28 December 2007, 23:19:01
gearbox not dismantled(just removed), and I'm not letting the mechanic get his hands on it either. I'm taking the old box with me.  :y

The reason it hasn't been dismantled is that I just need the car on the road and this chap is not a gear box specialist by any thinking.
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: sassanach on 28 December 2007, 23:21:06
i wish you were just around the corner anything to escape this boredom called christmas!!!
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: PaulyQ on 28 December 2007, 23:22:10
LMAO.

Do you think you know what it is?

Apart from a fooked box ?

Hey... think I'm about the only guy on here from around this neck of the woods.... full on Billy No Mates in the Omega world.  ;D
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: sassanach on 28 December 2007, 23:29:32
there is a strong possibility that you have a f@cked force motor in the front sump.this item controls the line pressure to ALL the clutches and band.however i have to admit at 100,000 miles you could simply have a knackered tranny.without a pressure test or a stripdown you will never know.
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: PaulyQ on 28 December 2007, 23:48:41
Well... since the "new" gearbox is arriving next week, I'll get that bunged on and keep the old one back.... I can then "tinker".

Very few gearbox specialists in our area so wouldn't mind getting my hands dirty and seeing what I can find out about the boxes, open it up and learn a bit.
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 29 December 2007, 08:28:13
For a bit more info on the omega autobox.....have a read of the info here:

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1183545930
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: johnc46 on 29 December 2007, 09:44:25
I was reading about autoboxes recently and the advice regarding changing boxes after the troubles listed above was to change the torque converter as well because of the contamination inside it. Failure to do this could result in early failure of the replacement box.
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: PaulyQ on 29 December 2007, 12:01:49
Well chaps... think it's time to put this thread to sleep unless something else crops up next week.

Many thanks for all of your info and suggestions  :y
Title: Re: knackered car...gearbox ?
Post by: PaulyQ on 31 December 2007, 14:37:30
Sorted... got gearbox fitted today, is a lot smoother(only done 30,000) now need to find somebody local to upgrade the software via Tech 2 to make it even smoother.