Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: tunnie on 13 January 2008, 17:57:00
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Took the heap's engine apart today to reach the tappets... finally got down and took off the cam covers.
I took the lifters out to pump the clean as per MDTM's guide, I previously also had a go at doing a couple at his place.
I did not get along so well, i have a small vice borrowed from Jaime but i spent half the feking time keeping the vice still and level as its not mounted and as i close it, it slips.... also the handle to wind is less than a 3rd the size of the handle on MDTM's vice, so it proved very had to pump them clean.
I managed to pump it a few times, took it out, pushed with my thumb and it pumped ok, but then went rock hard. To get more leverage i attacked my jack and used the handle of that on the vice... but i think i must have gone too far, i managed to get more oil out of 2 of the lifters, along with flakes of brown crud. Problem is i think i crushed the lifters too much... :-/ They feel a lot futher up than the ones i have not touched yet. :'(
I only have 3 replacement ones, i think, i have oppsed 2 of the old ones already, and this is on the good side, its the passenger side where the dud lifter is.
Picture before i took the cams out....
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l210/tunnie84/tappets.jpg)
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Are the older and newer type lifters interchangable?
If so, lets just shove 12 in there off my breaker (known good) - and stick the thing on fleabay pronto!! ;D
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not sure if tunnies lifters are new or old type....
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Old... that's a 1995 engine!
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aye its old!!! :(
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question for MrDTM - Lifters, are they interchange able?
You gave me 6, 3 of each type... could i put a full set of the later lifters in my pre 1997 engine?
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question for MrDTM - Lifters, are they interchange able?
You gave me 6, 3 of each type... could i put a full set of the later lifters in my pre 1997 engine?
As said, check with DTM
But personally, I can't see an immediate problem with using a complete set of one type of lifter in the engine,
But I'd want to confirm with Mark before popping them in...
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I dont think they are interchangeable.
The later type seem to have been introduced at the same time as the higher capacity oil pump and the modified 'T' vents, these act as flow restrictors, the later ones have larger holes implying that the later followers are designed to work with a higher pressure in the cam oil gallery.
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As stated, the later type work with the higher flow oil pump and the smaller T-vents so I would say......no they cant.
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Tunnie, I have some old type lifters you can have.
I have just tried to compress one and it was solid......I suspect that the old ones dont have a return spring so the usual flushing technique wont work. Ill work on another method.
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As stated, the later type work with the higher flow oil pump and the smaller T-vents so I would say......no they cant.
I thought the later T vent had larger holes......higher capacity pump can deliver more oil for a fixed pressure so doesnt need to restict the flow into the cam gallery so much. Hence the cam gallery will be at a higher pressure.
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As stated, the later type work with the higher flow oil pump and the smaller T-vents so I would say......no they cant.
I thought the later T vent had larger holes......higher capacity pump can deliver more oil for a fixed pressure so doesnt need to restict the flow into the cam gallery so much. Hence the cam gallery will be at a higher pressure.
Yep, wrong way round....it was late and I was tired
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Matchless and I have had a chat and we are going to carry ut a few tests on some of the earlier lifters and look to get a full set ready.
I ahev to say, the internals of that engine are 'worrying'...........did it used to belong to the coal board?
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Matchless and I have had a chat and we are going to carry ut a few tests on some of the earlier lifters and look to get a full set ready.
I ahev to say, the internals of that engine are 'worrying'...........did it used to belong to the coal board?
It is pretty manky, isn't it?
Little surprise that it's ended up with noisy lifters with the condition the oil must have been in to cause that much staining!
Kevin
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Definitely needs to be 'Sold as seen' ASAP!
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thanks guys... did i defo bugger the 2 i tried to pump clean then?
I was a bit shocked by the contents, i know from when James did my dads 2.2 head gasket, what state they should be. My dads ones where shinny clean!
I think those vents you talked about which pump oil in must be clogged, the oil in that area was very dark!
I know the lifters should go back in the same position they came out, but i don't think i really matters in my case??
I can pop up to Nottingham on Saturday, and bring all the lifter with me? Including the ones i *think* i have buggered.
During the evenings this week, i will clean up the brackets and cam area.
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is it worth having another go at the lifters i have removed, or just wait?
Also how will i know/reconise the dud lifter when i see it? Is it likley to be cracked/damaged?
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I have 8 followers ready to go, can do some more tomorrow, how many do you need?
All the ones I have were rigid, I heated them up slightly then filled them with hot fully synth using a hypo syringe and needle, after a bit of time to soak I put them in the vice and gently squeezed them to get the plunger moving then submerged them in warm oil and pumped them for a few mins to flush out some of the muck.
The early followers do have a return spring but they seem to have less travel than the later type. Once cleaned out they move freely under finger pressure.
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I have 8 followers ready to go, can do some more tomorrow, how many do you need?
All the ones I have were rigid, I heated them up slightly then filled them with hot fully synth using a hypo syringe and needle, after a bit of time to soak I put them in the vice and gently squeezed them to get the plunger moving then submerged them in warm oil and pumped them for a few mins to flush out some of the muck.
The early followers do have a return spring but they seem to have less travel than the later type. Once cleaned out they move freely under finger pressure.
Well i the first 2 on the drivers side, go as described... the go solid and have no moment.
I think since i have stripped down this far, a whole set is needed.... what i can do is come up to Nottingham on Saturday?? with all my lifters and I can work on them too?
I don't have a hypo syringe, or means to heat the oil..... i think since its stripped down this far i might as well do the job fully... and get them all sorted!!
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OK Tunnie, Ill talk to Mark and see if we can prepare a full set between us ready for the w/e. I have time available on dark wet evenings but weekends are reserved for building my garden edifice.
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OK Tunnie, Ill talk to Mark and see if we can prepare a full set between us ready for the w/e. I have time available on dark wet evenings but weekends are reserved for building my garden edifice.
Many Thanks :y
How long does it take per lifter? I am more than happy to get stuck in at the weekend, once i have seen one being done.
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right i am confused now, do i have the older or newer type??
Went up to MrDTM's today (even though he was out) he kindly left me a box of the earlier type lifters (also thanks to Matchless).... but they don't match what i have :'(
I must have the later ones?? But the engine is pre-97. :-/
This is a lifter removed from my engine (bad state i know):
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l210/tunnie84/lifter1.jpg)
This is the older type Mark supplied me with:
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l210/tunnie84/lifter2.jpg)
So i must have the newer type? - Yet when i try to pump them clean, they just go solid! :(
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Tunnie, I think I'm going to be your best friend.
I have 24 of those lifters (what are in your engine) in a bag in my car, and they are all known good ;)
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Tunnie, I think I'm going to be your best friend.
I have 24 of those lifters (what are in your engine) in a bag in my car, and they are all known good ;)
dude.... :D :D :D :D :D
I belive mother tunnie is doing a Sunday roast tommorow ;) :y
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I belive mother tunnie is doing a Sunday roast tommorow ;) :y
Is that an open OOF offer? Or just to those bearing oily gifts? ;) ;)
:y :y
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I belive mother tunnie is doing a Sunday roast tommorow ;) :y
Is that an open OOF offer? Or just to those bearing oily gifts? ;) ;)
:y :y
;D
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........
I belive mother tunnie is doing a Sunday roast tommorow ;) :y
Is that an open OOF offer? Or just to those bearing oily gifts? ;) ;)
:y :y
;D
;D ;D
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Tunnie, I think I'm going to be your best friend.
I have 24 of those lifters (what are in your engine) in a bag in my car, and they are all known good ;)
dude.... :D :D :D :D :D
I belive mother tunnie is doing a Sunday roast tommorow ;) :y
Bugger, I'm in Surrey. Could murder a good roast :(
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What position is the lower belt idler in?
Early or late style....
Do you have a mix of different ones, if not, why the hell didn't you say earlier!
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What position is the lower belt idler in?
Early or late style....
Do you have a mix of different ones, if not, why the hell didn't you say earlier!
Errrr :-/
I went though the 6 i have taken out allready, they are all the same...
I assumed since the engine was pre97, i had the earlier type!
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Is the bottom cambelt idelr close to the oil pump or close to half way between the oil pump and number 4 cam?
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Do you have a mix of different ones, if not, why the hell didn't you say earlier!
Permission to thump Tunnie granted ;D
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Is the bottom cambelt idelr close to the oil pump or close to half way between the oil pump and number 4 cam?
sorry! still not got a clue....
I am feking useless when it comes to cars.... think i will stick to mobiles!
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Is the bottom cambelt idelr close to the oil pump or close to half way between the oil pump and number 4 cam?
sorry! still not got a clue....
I am feking useless when it comes to cars.... think i will stick to mobiles!
post a picture of the cambelt setup so we can work out what oil pump it has.
Got to say that the state of that lifter is very bad!
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Do you have a mix of different ones, if not, why the hell didn't you say earlier!
Permission to thump Tunnie granted ;D
Can't you wait so we can all watch ;D
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Is the bottom cambelt idelr close to the oil pump or close to half way between the oil pump and number 4 cam?
sorry! still not got a clue....
I am feking useless when it comes to cars.... think i will stick to mobiles!
post a picture of the cambelt setup so we can work out what oil pump it has.
Got to say that the state of that lifter is very bad!
Have to say when i removed the cam sproket from the cam itself... was suprisingly easy...
As all will know i am not very strong, and i was able to remove the came sproket single handed...... which means they could have been out at some point :-/
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Heres an easier question......how many holes are in the SIDE of the T vent (the rod type thing we were talking about before with the torx head that screws in to the head near the cams)
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ok back to basics....
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l210/tunnie84/tappets2.jpg)
1) The Cam
2) Torx Bolt
3) The oil flow, to fill the tappets?
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1) Correct!
2) No, if you look in the photo where the wires are draped across the head, on the top cam area in the pic you can just see a torx head under the wires where the casting wraps round it.....this is one of the T vents. The other is almost directly below it but screws into the head at an angle.
3) No!
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Tunnie, I got your PM mate.
We'll get together very soon and get this together (once we're convinved it's got the right lifters in!)
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i'll get some more pictures up today of the cambelt area, and i will also strip down the passenger side.
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i'll get some more pictures up today of the cambelt area, and i will also strip down the passenger side.
TAKE THE T VENTS OUT AND COUNT THE NUMBER OF HOLES ON THE SIDE OF THEM!
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Might be in Daventry later, if so, I'll pop in and have a gander...
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right the photos.... now if you have small kids put them to bed its not a nice sight this!!!
I know fek all about engines, but i know cams should not be rusty!! :o
The cambelt arrangement
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l210/tunnie84/DSC07787.jpg)
Average state of the lifters
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l210/tunnie84/DSC07789.jpg)
This is the drivers side cam, far left if standing infront of the engine.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l210/tunnie84/DSC07791.jpg)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l210/tunnie84/DSC07792.jpg)
This is still the same cam, its fine on the other side.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l210/tunnie84/DSC07793.jpg)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l210/tunnie84/DSC07794.jpg)
Passenger side cam
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l210/tunnie84/DSC07801.jpg)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l210/tunnie84/DSC07802.jpg)
Cam area
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l210/tunnie84/DSC07803.jpg)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l210/tunnie84/DSC07806.jpg)
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must also add, there was a strong smell of burnt oil....
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how on earth has the camshaft gotten rusty :-? was this engine left standing for a long time before fin put it in ?
Thats the only reason i can think of
It would be better for you just to swap the heads over for better ones for piece of mind, they are really full of crud, Clean up the old heads reput back together and sell on
Craig
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Not a pretty sight as you say. I think that engine was standing for a while as said. Does the rust appear fresh or does it appear to have run with it?
If the rust is any more than a light coating on the surface it will have penetrated the hardened surface and the cams will wear rapidly... :'(
Kevin
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the 2.5 and 3.0 heads are interchangeble i belive....
James!!!! ;) ;) ;D ;D ;D
But if i change the heads, that means i need to change the head-gasket!?
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Not a pretty sight as you say. I think that engine was standing for a while as said. Does the rust appear fresh or does it appear to have run with it?
If the rust is any more than a light coating on the surface it will have penetrated the hardened surface and the cams will wear rapidly... :'(
Kevin
I drove it to Nottingham & back just two weeks ago......
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i would change the head gasket if i changed the head, but i doubt you would need a skim as it will not be warpped.
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Thats the problem you have when you buy from a breakers, there is no history and you dont know how long and under what conditions the engine has been stored :(
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i would change the head gasket if i changed the head, but i doubt you would need a skim as it will not be warpped.
If i can get away without chaning the heads i would prefer that, its just extra expense :(
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I don't believe the heads are interchangeable. The combustion chambers will be different volumes. However, whilst dirty, the heads should be OK.
I would replace the rusy cams, if they can't be cleaned up with some very light buffing with some fine, oiled wet and dry. 2.5 cams ought to be around. Enough people have upgraded them...
Have a look at the surfaces of the lifters before re-using any in case they have been scored by the rust too.
Does make me wonder if that engine has suffered a general lack of oil to the top end, looking at the muck, the fact that the cams have rusted, etc.. Bearing journals look OK though. :-/
Kevin
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Does make me wonder if that engine has suffered a general lack of oil to the top end, looking at the muck, the fact that the cams have rusted, etc.. Bearing journals look OK though. :-/
Kevin
It looks like it has been starved of oil the top end as the oil that was already up there would burn under the heat and give you the mess you have also it would be another reason for the rust on the camshafts
Or i could be totaly wrong ;D
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Judging by the state of the top end of that engine (I wonder what the bottom end is like - Oil pickup / pump etc), it's unknown history, it being an early engine in a late car and all the problems you've been encountering then would you not consider dropping another engine in it?
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Judging by the state of the top end of that engine (I wonder what the bottom end is like - Oil pickup / pump etc), it's unknown history, it being an early engine in a late car and all the problems you've been encountering then would you not consider dropping another engine in it?
Its getting to that point!
I did think oil pump, but if the oil pump had failed or low oil pressure, the engine would have let go in a big way by now?
Done 750+ miles in it since i got it, so it would have let go a long time ago!
Wondering if the oil feeds to the lifters got blocked an not enough oil is reaching the lifters?
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What a nail......what an absolute heap of.......
That poor engine is in a bad way.
Any way, its got the early pump on so needs the early lifters (in theory) but, worth also cehcking what T vents are fitted (as I keep preaching).
Try buffing the cams up with some brassos, if they dont come clean then you have problems.
Its a pity because there was a set of 2.5 cams in the scrap metal that was in Jamies boot for the tip last weekend!
My view is that the engine you have is not worth a head change.........
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So I remove these 2 for the T Vents?
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l210/tunnie84/tvents.jpg)
If its got the early pump whats the later lifters doing in there?
James has a full set of known good lifters (later type) try those?
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What a nail......what an absolute heap of.......
That poor engine is in a bad way.
Any way, its got the early pump on so needs the early lifters (in theory) but, worth also cehcking what T vents are fitted (as I keep preaching).
Try buffing the cams up with some brassos, if they dont come clean then you have problems.
Its a pity because there was a set of 2.5 cams in the scrap metal that was in Jamies boot for the tip last weekend!
My view is that the engine you have is not worth a head change.........
The cams are still in the green box (been going done tip with just a couple of heads at a time), but if I'm honest I haven't been looking after them....
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So I remove these 2 for the T Vents?
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l210/tunnie84/tvents.jpg)
If its got the early pump whats the later lifters doing in there?
James has a full set of known good lifters (later type) try those?
Yep, they are the T vents.
Remove them and clean throughly, there is a small hole in the torx head that will need poking out with a strand from a wire brush etc.
The engine has the early oil pump so should be re-built with early T vents and cam followers. Post a pic of the T vents (all 4) so we can work out what you have.
Clean the cam lobes with some 600 grit wet & dry soaked in oil then polish with brasso or solvol autosol (or any pumice based polish).
Im concerned that the oil ways in the heads could be blocked, can you get an oil can with flexible spout onto each of the cam bearing oil holes and cam follower oil holes? Pump oil through each hole to check that oil flows to adjacent holes.
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When you get to the re-build stage:
Plugs out. Cam belt off. No followers or T vents.
Crank the engine until you get fresh oil out of all 4 T vent drillings.
Re-fit T vents.
Crank until oil appears at all cam bearing oil holes and cam follower oil holes.
Set crank at 60 deg BTDC, do not turn again until belt is fitted and timed correctly.
Re-fit followers and cams, fit cam sprockets (you will need help)
Fit belt and time-up etc.
Dont forget a THIN smear of green sealant under the front edge of the front cam bearing caps. (degrease the caps and head first)
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When you get to the re-build stage:
Plugs out. Cam belt off. No followers or T vents.
Crank the engine until you get fresh oil out of all 4 T vent drillings.
Re-fit T vents.
Crank until oil appears at all cam bearing oil holes and cam follower oil holes.
Set crank at 60 deg BTDC, do not turn again until belt is fitted and timed correctly.
Re-fit followers and cams, fit cam sprockets (you will need help)
Fit belt and time-up etc.
Dont forget a THIN smear of green sealant under the front edge of the front cam bearing caps. (degrease the caps and head first)
Excellent advice, thanks :y
The vents between the cam bearing oil holes I think are (see red dots):
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l210/tunnie84/tvents2.jpg)
Not sure if they were exact.. but i rember seeing tiny holes around that area in each hole, its these that should be clear?
Do they lead to the next cam hole?? Could i poke a straight paper clip though it? to help clear it?
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The red dots indicate the oil feed holes for the cam followers, the small holes next to the cam bearing cap bolt holes are the oil feeds for the cam bearings.
Dont poke paper clips into any hole in a bearing surface, its so easy to raise a slight burr that can then 'pick-up' and lead to seizure.
If you cant get oil to come out of all the holes then try flushing out with WD40 or carb cleaner. If you must poke something into the oil ways use something like a nylon guitar string or even 7/0.2 pvc insulated wire.
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Tunnie if you need a set of 2.5 cams pm me and i will send you a set. I have a couple of sets going spare. :y
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cheers :y
Might very well need them.... will have a go at cleaning them up next weekend, i'll take the T vents out tommorow :y
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cheers :y
Might very well need them.... will have a go at cleaning them up next weekend, i'll take the T vents out tommorow :y
You not working tomorrow Mark?
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cheers :y
Might very well need them.... will have a go at cleaning them up next weekend, i'll take the T vents out tommorow :y
You not working tomorrow Mark?
I am, i'll take them out in the evening. 2 min job to take those out, i'll clean them in the house.
I am away next Saturday.... :(
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instead of a nylon guitar string or even 7/0.2 pvc insulated wire i have heard that good 100Lb sea fishing line if good for checking the oil feeds are clear, as its nice and strong but also very flexible
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cheers :y
Might very well need them.... will have a go at cleaning them up next weekend, i'll take the T vents out tommorow :y
Check the state of the cams that Jamie still has, they may be fine......
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cheers :y
Might very well need them.... will have a go at cleaning them up next weekend, i'll take the T vents out tommorow :y
Check the state of the cams that Jamie still has, they may be fine......
If not, I have some 3.0 ones..
Not that this engine deserves them!!!
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cheers :y
Might very well need them.... will have a go at cleaning them up next weekend, i'll take the T vents out tommorow :y
Check the state of the cams that Jamie still has, they may be fine......
If not, I have some 3.0 ones..
Not that this engine deserves them!!!
This engine deserves being used as an anchor... ;D
Kevin
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cheers :y
Might very well need them.... will have a go at cleaning them up next weekend, i'll take the T vents out tommorow :y
Check the state of the cams that Jamie still has, they may be fine......
If not, I have some 3.0 ones..
Not that this engine deserves them!!!
This engine deserves being used as an anchor... ;D
Kevin
As do all V6's!
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cheers :y
Might very well need them.... will have a go at cleaning them up next weekend, i'll take the T vents out tommorow :y
Check the state of the cams that Jamie still has, they may be fine......
If not, I have some 3.0 ones..
Not that this engine deserves them!!!
This engine deserves being used as an anchor... ;D
Kevin
As do all V6's!
:o :o
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cheers :y
Might very well need them.... will have a go at cleaning them up next weekend, i'll take the T vents out tommorow :y
Check the state of the cams that Jamie still has, they may be fine......
If not, I have some 3.0 ones..
Not that this engine deserves them!!!
This engine deserves being used as an anchor... ;D
Kevin
As do all V6's!
Only because the 4 pot would be useless at that as well ;D
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cheers :y
Might very well need them.... will have a go at cleaning them up next weekend, i'll take the T vents out tommorow :y
Check the state of the cams that Jamie still has, they may be fine......
If not, I have some 3.0 ones..
Not that this engine deserves them!!!
This engine deserves being used as an anchor... ;D
Kevin
As do all V6's!
Oooh! :P
Kevin
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cheers :y
Might very well need them.... will have a go at cleaning them up next weekend, i'll take the T vents out tommorow :y
Check the state of the cams that Jamie still has, they may be fine......
If not, I have some 3.0 ones..
Not that this engine deserves them!!!
This engine deserves being used as an anchor... ;D
Kevin
As do all V6's!
Oooh! :P
Kevin
I guessing i am being unfair, but every V6 i have ever owned has been as healthy as a dead duck!
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I guessing i am being unfair, but every V6 i have ever owned has been as healthy as a dead duck!
;D
It's a shame this one doesn't appear to be shaping up better.. :(
Kevin
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I'll dig out the cams I have, and check...
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I'll dig out the cams I have, and check...
Cheers :y
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cheers :y
Might very well need them.... will have a go at cleaning them up next weekend, i'll take the T vents out tommorow :y
Check the state of the cams that Jamie still has, they may be fine......
If not, I have some 3.0 ones..
Not that this engine deserves them!!!
This engine deserves being used as an anchor... ;D
Kevin
As do all V6's!
Oooh! :P
Kevin
He shoots......
HE SCORES!!!! ;D ;D ;D