Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Tony O on 20 February 2008, 08:51:51
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Hi guys Im planning on doing my cambelt any ideas where I can get the locking kit?
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Hi Tony, best bet is to borrow one for a weekend, some of the guys on here have them but you have to have at least 500 posts before they would consider lending it out (very expensive tool). If your looking to buy one, just type (VS130) into your search engine and hey presto. They are about 165 pounds new.
Hope this helps
Mark
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They can be found for much less than this. Keep an eye on Ebay if your need is not urgent. Otherwise, some of the cheaper makes are well under the £100 markl. Beware of Laser kits because they are not accurately made and don't always fit!
Kevin
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Hi Tony, you can try autovaux, I bought my cam belt kit from them, along with hiring a locking kit, couldn't justify spending £100+ for a locking kit I'm only gonna use once or twice. They take £15 a week plus £100 deposit. Things are quiet for them at the moment on the cam locking kit front, so they gave me it for 2 weeks for the price of 1. Give them a try.
Note, their cam locking kit is a bit worn so the two cam locks have a small bit of play, so your 2nd timing belt mark might not line up to the cam tooth, you'll know what I mean when you get around to fitting your cam belt. You can move the cam by hand with the locking kit in place to get the belt to fit onto the correct tooth. Ensure all the marks line up before you rotate the engine.
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Just posted this in another post try http://www.ccw-tools.com/Sealey/Vehicle-Service/Setting-&-Locking-Tools/Sealey-VSE130---Petrol-Engine-SettingLocking-Tool-Kit-5pc---GM-&-Saab/p-4-8-9-11978/
£71 inc vat and delivery.
lee
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you dont need a locking kit, when you have all your timming marks inline clamp the cam shafts together with mole grips, fit you belt anticlock wise a be very carefull, if it helps use a tipex white pen to highlight the timming marks first,
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you dont need a locking kit, when you have all your timming marks inline clamp the cam shafts together with mole grips, fit you belt anticlock wise a be very carefull, if it helps use a tipex white pen to highlight the timming marks first,
I wouldn't listen to this statement, if the topmen on here say you need to use Locking Kits then you need them :y
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you dont need a locking kit, when you have all your timming marks inline clamp the cam shafts together with mole grips, fit you belt anticlock wise a be very carefull, if it helps use a tipex white pen to highlight the timming marks first,
I wouldn't listen to this statement, if the topmen on here say you need to use Locking Kits then you need them :y
You need a locking kit - Geffd who used to work a VX engine plant -done more belts than I've had hot dinners would not change one without a locking kit.
Timing marks are only a guide.
Use mole grips could be end result:
(http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n21/iggy21_2006/JSeaman/Step389.jpg)
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if you have your engine timed up correct lock it up with mole grips, if you cant get the tools ,done it load of times,
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if you have your engine timed up correct lock it up with mole grips, if you cant get the tools ,done it load of times,
How do know it been done right B4, and is correct ?
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i take your point ,if your doing a belt change you use the tools to lock the shafts, how do you no it was done correct before you dont ? its the same with or with out the fancy tools, use the timming marks thats why they are there to help you time the engine, if you get the tools great but if you cant afford them there is this way, i have done it and its all ok
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But with the Proper Locking Kit if it was out you would see it and correct it... so it would be right when you had done.
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Locking kit less than £200 maximum , probably a lot cheaper.
New Engine more than £1000, probably more
2nd hand engine more than £500
last 2 ... loads of hassle to change....
do the maths your self and ask the question ........
is the risk worth it ? ........
then ask your self ...
am I a mechanic or a cowboy ???
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if you built up an engine that had broken its belts you aligne the cam marks and insert the tools, what i do is aligne the marks and clamp the cam shafts wheels, it does the same job , ie locks the shafts with the timing marks, it may scare some folks but it can be done, just trying to help the guy, but yes if you can get the tool beg steal or borrow it use it
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if you built up an engine that had broken its belts you aligne the cam marks and insert the tools, what i do is aligne the marks and clamp the cam shafts wheels, it does the same job , ie locks the shafts with the timing marks, it may scare some folks but it can be done, just trying to help the guy, but yes if you can get the tool beg steal or borrow it use it
You will never be sure the V6 timing is spot on without the locking kit.
I agree, pretty much any other engine you can just lock the cams and if the marks line up you're good - but NOT on the GM V6. The timing on these engines is fractionally adjustable with the idlers, and you CANNOT get this right without the kit. Trust me ;)
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lets have a summer cambelt party bring your mole grips for a dare :-* will show you how, and drink lots of beer and wine then fit a belt,
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lets have a summer cambelt party bring your mole grips for a dare :-* will show you how, and drink lots of beer and wine then fit a belt,
You're on - and then when you think it's "done" I'll check it against my SP timing kit, and show you how many degrees out you are, on either the cams or the tension ;)
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lets have a summer cambelt party bring your mole grips for a dare :-* will show you how, and drink lots of beer and wine then fit a belt,
You're on - and then when you think it's "done" I'll check it against my SP timing kit, and show you how many degrees out you are, on either the cams or the tension ;)
Your car - I think not!
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if you built up an engine that had broken its belts you aligne the cam marks and insert the tools, what i do is aligne the marks and clamp the cam shafts wheels, it does the same job , ie locks the shafts with the timing marks, it may scare some folks but it can be done, just trying to help the guy, but yes if you can get the tool beg steal or borrow it use it
You will never be sure the V6 timing is spot on without the locking kit.
I agree, pretty much any other engine you can just lock the cams and if the marks line up you're good - but NOT on the GM V6. The timing on these engines is fractionally adjustable with the idlers, and you CANNOT get this right without the kit. Trust me ;)
Not done a GM V6 but surely it's just like any other modern engine?
As long as ALL the timing marks are alined and the belt tension is set right (ie to ensure no slip but not too tight to cause premature failure of bearings or belt). :question
The idlers are there to do just that IDLE ie nothing but help the belt change direction between the banks and crank?
Agreed this will be difficult to do without the locking kit as you need to get all 4 cams and the crank aligned at once - but not impossible (molegrips though??) :)
I'm sure i will be corrected so standing waiting :-?
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you dont need a locking kit, when you have all your timming marks inline clamp the cam shafts together with mole grips, fit you belt anticlock wise a be very carefull, if it helps use a tipex white pen to highlight the timming marks first,
jesus christ is this fella for real :o :o :o :o :o
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if you built up an engine that had broken its belts you aligne the cam marks and insert the tools, what i do is aligne the marks and clamp the cam shafts wheels, it does the same job , ie locks the shafts with the timing marks, it may scare some folks but it can be done, just trying to help the guy, but yes if you can get the tool beg steal or borrow it use it
You will never be sure the V6 timing is spot on without the locking kit.
I agree, pretty much any other engine you can just lock the cams and if the marks line up you're good - but NOT on the GM V6. The timing on these engines is fractionally adjustable with the idlers, and you CANNOT get this right without the kit. Trust me ;)
Not done a GM V6 but surely it's just like any other modern engine?
As long as ALL the timing marks are alined and the belt tension is set right (ie to ensure no slip but not too tight to cause premature failure of bearings or belt). :question
The idlers are there to do just that IDLE ie nothing but help the belt change direction between the banks and crank?
Agreed this will be difficult to do without the locking kit as you need to get a 4 cams and the crank aligned at once - but not impossible (molegrips though??) :)
I'm sure i will be corrected so standing waiting :-?
Timing is micro-adjustable through idlers......
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the idler pulleys adjust the cam timing bud not just a case of lock it up and fit !! can make a massive difference to performance of engine !! any muppet who uses molegrips is asking for lots of trouble >:( >:(
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the idler pulleys adjust the cam timing bud not just a case of lock it up and fit !! can make a massive difference to performance of engine !! any muppet who uses molegrips is asking for lots of trouble >:( >:(
sorry don't understand how? i'm used to one fixed postion of timing if you get it out by a tooth it will run like a bag of nails, if timing a performance cam you fit vernier sprockets for finite adjustment but what do the idlers do :-?
and i will be corrected but that's why i'm here to learn :y
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Yep, the position of the idlers affects the valve timing on the V6
I'll show you sometime :y
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the idler pulleys adjust the cam timing bud not just a case of lock it up and fit !! can make a massive difference to performance of engine !! any muppet who uses molegrips is asking for lots of trouble >:( >:(
sorry don't understand how? i'm used to one fixed postion of timing if you get it out by a tooth it will run like a bag of nails, if timing a performance cam you fit vernier sprockets for finite adjustment but what do the idlers do :-?
and i will be corrected but that's why i'm here to learn :y
get the cambelt dvd bud it shows you there !! basically you have to adjust the banks to be in time with each other !! when i did mine watched the dvd 4 times before i got it propley and im a mechanic !! ;D
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the idler pulleys adjust the cam timing bud not just a case of lock it up and fit !! can make a massive difference to performance of engine !! any muppet who uses molegrips is asking for lots of trouble >:( >:(
sorry don't understand how? i'm used to one fixed postion of timing if you get it out by a tooth it will run like a bag of nails, if timing a performance cam you fit vernier sprockets for finite adjustment but what do the idlers do :-?
and i will be corrected but that's why i'm here to learn :y
get the cambelt dvd bud it shows you there !! basically you have to adjust the banks to be in time with each other !! when i did mine watched the dvd 4 times before i got it propley and im a mechanic !! ;D
Cheers Mark
James is gonna show me how to do it soon ;) ;D
night guys :y
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this just gets better, explain how a fixed belt tentioner thats has been tentioned corectly can adjust the vave timing, dont forget the new belts has the timming marks on it, the tentioner just becomes a belt guide once its set ? but please tell this muppet more
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there is only 1 tensioner then there are two idler pulleys which are on concentric centres therefore enabling you to adjust the cam timing !! the tensioner adjusts only the tension of the belt ! if only it were that easy bud !! :y you have to time 1+2 banks firist then 3+4 banks then turn round and check and then adjust again if needed !! :y
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the idler pulleys adjust the cam timing bud not just a case of lock it up and fit !! can make a massive difference to performance of engine !! any muppet who uses molegrips is asking for lots of trouble >:( >:(
sorry don't understand how? i'm used to one fixed postion of timing if you get it out by a tooth it will run like a bag of nails, if timing a performance cam you fit vernier sprockets for finite adjustment but what do the idlers do :-?
and i will be corrected but that's why i'm here to learn :y
get the cambelt dvd bud it shows you there !! basically you have to adjust the banks to be in time with each other !! when i did mine watched the dvd 4 times before i got it propley and im a mechanic !! ;D
Cheers Mark
James is gonna show me how to do it soon ;) ;D
night guys :y
no worries mate all i can say is use the locking and setting kit it saves heartache in long run !! :y
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correct full points to you, time up the engine,AND LOCK WITH MOLE GRIP , remove old belt etc, fit full new belt kit, tentioners and ideler pulleys, start at crank with belt mark to crank mark ,fit in a anticlock wise direction, twin lines on belt will aligne with cam marks,when its all on ,adjust right tention anticlock wise, making sure nothing moves, then do same to left tentioner anticlockwise, recheck nothings moved, REMOVE THE MOLE GRIPS, turn engine 2 turns, all belt marks will be out of agline now,adjust again in the same order but tention clock wise this time, recheck nothings moved,set final tention 2,3 mm job done , put back together ,THEN GO TO PUB
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this just gets better, explain how a fixed belt tentioner thats has been tentioned corectly can adjust the vave timing, dont forget the new belts has the timming marks on it, the tentioner just becomes a belt guide once its set ? but please tell this muppet more
Not all belts are supplied with markings unfortunately :(.
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SORRY I SHOULD SAY ADJUST RIGHT IDELER ANTICLOCK WISE THEN LEFT ANTICLOCK ,THEN TENTIONER ANTICLOCK WISE,TURN ENGINE 2 TIME THEN REPEAT ADJUSTING EVERTHING CLOCK WISE, ANY WAY, I DO THAT DONT WANT A KIT I HAD NO PROBLEMS, BUT IF YOU HAVE A SUPER ALL SINGING DANCING TOOL KIT THAT YOU WONT NEED FOR 4 YEARS AGAIN USE IT
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SORRY I SHOULD SAY ADJUST RIGHT IDELER ANTICLOCK WISE THEN LEFT ANTICLOCK ,THEN TENTIONER ANTICLOCK WISE,TURN ENGINE 2 TIME THEN REPEAT ADJUSTING EVERTHING CLOCK WISE, ANY WAY, I DO THAT DONT WANT A KIT I HAD NO PROBLEMS, BUT IF YOU HAVE A SUPER ALL SINGING DANCING TOOL KIT THAT YOU WONT NEED FOR 4 YEARS AGAIN USE IT
Whatever! :-X :-X :-X
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is this thread some sort of jest? Oh and sorry to say. . Its bank 3 and 4 that you get right first and then time bank 1 and 2 to it :y
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Been reading this thread with great interest, as somebody who can't contribute to the theory.
But isn't Rad Cap's point that the whole thing depends on locking the cams and crank into positions from which they cannot move until you want them to. There's no doubt that the kits make this easy and certain and accurate, but I can't see why the same result cannot be obtained with an alternative locking method, which would not damage the sprockets, provided it was foolproof from the movement point of view. Aren't you just saying that the kits are altogether easier and safer, and more certain to be accurate?
Or am I completely bonkers?
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the two idlers are adjustable and significantly affect valve timing. If you remove an idler which you need to do to change a belt kit then you will not get the correct position when re fitting without the timing kit. Remember its a setting tool not just a locking kit.
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the two idlers are adjustable and significantly affect valve timing. If you remove an idler which you need to do to change a belt kit then you will not get the correct position when re fitting without the timing kit. Remember its a setting tool not just a locking kit.
but then if you read the haynes manual ;D you can set the idler to 0.5-1mm gap turn engine over twice then set to 2.5mm?? :question
(had to stick my oar back in) ;D
:y
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anyone who trusts haynes is not going near my car ;D
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OK. I still can't quite take that in, but I'll watch it being done at Shifnal and hope that the penny drops then.
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SORRY I SHOULD SAY ADJUST RIGHT IDELER ANTICLOCK WISE THEN LEFT ANTICLOCK ,THEN TENTIONER ANTICLOCK WISE,TURN ENGINE 2 TIME THEN REPEAT ADJUSTING EVERTHING CLOCK WISE, ANY WAY, I DO THAT DONT WANT A KIT I HAD NO PROBLEMS, BUT IF YOU HAVE A SUPER ALL SINGING DANCING TOOL KIT THAT YOU WONT NEED FOR 4 YEARS AGAIN USE IT
No need to shout chap - we aint deaf!!!!!!!!! :-X :-X
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you dont need a locking kit, when you have all your timming marks inline clamp the cam shafts together with mole grips, fit you belt anticlock wise a be very carefull, if it helps use a tipex white pen to highlight the timming marks first,
Sorry, it is not possible to correctly time up the GM V6 cambelt without a locking and timing kit.
I would urge anyone NOT to attempt it.
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correct full points to you, time up the engine,AND LOCK WITH MOLE GRIP , remove old belt etc, fit full new belt kit, tentioners and ideler pulleys, start at crank with belt mark to crank mark ,fit in a anticlock wise direction, twin lines on belt will aligne with cam marks,when its all on ,adjust right tention anticlock wise, making sure nothing moves, then do same to left tentioner anticlockwise, recheck nothings moved, REMOVE THE MOLE GRIPS, turn engine 2 turns, all belt marks will be out of agline now,adjust again in the same order but tention clock wise this time, recheck nothings moved,set final tention 2,3 mm job done , put back together ,THEN GO TO PUB
To explain a little.
Most engines, you can get away with your method (though on this type of engine, I'd rather spend £4.99 on the correct wedge that damage sintered cam sprockets ;)). This type of engine generally has no adjustment - its either right, or a tooth out. If its right, and you dont make a mess of the tensioner, then job done.
The GM V6 has infinately adjustable timing. This has advantages (being able to time up perfectly, despite tolerances in manufacture etc) and disadvantages (it needs the proper locking/timing tools!). Presumable you are changing the entire kit (as its usually the idlers/tensioner that fails), not just the belt, which means you are disturbing the timing. Seeing as the marks on the cam cover back plate are just rough markings to assist with initial belt install, you have no accurate way of checking - and it will be out, because you have replaced the infinately adjustable idlers. Even if you were by pure luck bang on with both banks - highly unlikely - you may be off with the crank not being perfectly at TDC (and remember, as its infinately adjustable valve timing, being 'near' like many other engines won't be good enough).
Hope that clarifies things a little.
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There are what, 10 cambelts being done this weekend?
They will all have their timing checked BEFORE hand
This will likely show most have been fitted by people without the kit before hand and have been incorrectly done.
From what I gather here, A correctly timed v6 is the exception not the rule!
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There are what, 10 cambelts being done this weekend?
They will all have their timing checked BEFORE hand
This will likely show most have been fitted by people without the kit before hand and have been incorrectly done.
From what I gather here, A correctly timed v6 is the exception not the rule!
Main dealer did my last belt change so like to think it's timed right >:(
But they couldn't even get the plugs out to change them so not overly confident ;D
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In my experience, it pays to use the correct tools for the job in the long run. :y
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This again reminds me of that pic from the guy who locked his cams by cable tieing them together.
What concernes me is that there may well be those who don't know better (like me a year ago) who are tempted to try it without the locking and timing kit.
BTW you don't have to buy one. There are plenty of generous chaps on here who will lend one, or Autovaux will hire you one for 20 quid.
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Thanks guys I think i'll go with the locking kit it would be my luck something will move. thanks again Tony
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Even cheaper :)
http://www.pvrdirect.co.uk/productinfo.aspx?catref=VSE130
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Even cheaper :)
http://www.pvrdirect.co.uk/productinfo.aspx?catref=VSE130
I've orderred tools from them before - pretty good supplier.
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Buy one, use it, sell it on here or e-bay... at a small loss maybe, but, you could class it as rental costs, if you get my meaning :y :y