Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Kate on 30 March 2008, 18:46:11
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Hi everyone. Had my thermostat done at the cambelt party and now it's leaking coolant really badly. :'(
Do you think it will be the coming from the thermostat housing or transfer pipe? Or could there be another source?
Any help would be greatly appreciated as I can only drive a couple of miles without overheating. :-X
Thanks very much!
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Can you see which area it is coming from?
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yea need to know genaral area to say kate !! :y
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Yeah, more info on where from. May be unrelated, such as the common hbv etc
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Well it does seem to be coming from the cylinder block area. Thanks for helping! :y
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do you know where to look for hbv kate :question
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do you know where to look for hbv kate :question
No, I don't even know what that is! ;D
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Just joined the forum a few months back. You must be having problems with the HBV (heater bypass valve). Look in the engine towards the passenger side.
Thanks
Bright
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this might help. picture of the hbv on a v6:
(http://images.omegaowners.com/images/guides/HBVV6/VaderPictures015.jpg)
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Here's a how-to guide as well!
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1193594464
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Hi Kate, hope you are keeping well.
Try to pinpoint the exact area of the leak. Cylinder block area is too general. Is it at the front or back, which side etc/ The thermostat and transfer pipe which you know so well would tend to show at the front r/h side of the engine, and the heater bypass valve at the rear l/h side at the back. Unfortunately water can travel away from the source before becoming obvious but looking at the engine from below should give you a very good clue.
So, front or back, left or right?
Don't let the engine overheat too much, if you can run it any distance, and remember that your corrosion protection fluid will be diluted by repeated re-filling, so will need replenishing when the problem is solved, as it will be.
Bit of a change, having too much heat instead of too little. ::)
Keep us posted.
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Thanks Bill. I had another look and the coolant is dropping over the top of the sump at the front and back.
If you look at the engine from the front of the car you can see coolant dropping down behind the drive belt and over the sump. It is more to the left, not where the transfer pipe ends.
It is not coming out of the end of the transfer pipe, I checked that and tightended the jubilee clip.
I took the black pipes off and had a look at the thermostat housing but couldn't see any coolant there but I didn't have a good view obviously.
When I looked under the car coolant was also running over the top of the sump towards the back of the car.
Has anyone got any ideas where the leak is coming from.
I was going to try and fix it myself but I really am hopeless! ;D
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By the way, can coolant come of the HBV? :-X
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When the HBV fails, it can cause fracture of the plastic body which then leaks water, or it may be simply split/cracked hoses. This water tends to drip off the back of the sump under the car.
If you have water actually dripping from the auxiliary belt area, ie. down the front of engine, then it could be that the seal between your water pump and the engine block has failed, (the pump is bolted onto the block and a rubber ring seals the joint between the pump and the hole in the block when bolted up), or more likely, the gland seal on the pump itself has packed up, letting water leak out round the pump shaft. The water pump on the V6 is driven by the aux. belt which makes it a relatively simple job to replace, and you could follow the maintenance guides on here to do it yourself.
You should first check closely that the problem isn't as simple as a split hose on the radiator or on the throttle body, or even the pipes from the expansion tank. Have a look with the engine running but keep fingers, hair, scarves etc. well clear.
I know the Haynes manual has caused you uncertainty in the past, but do see if it helps in this instance to identify pipes etc.
Good luck.
Bill.
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Thanks again Bill. I'll have another look but I think I'll have to brave the garages again! :'(
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Could it be coming from waterpump area?
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The source of the leak really needs to by tied down as best as you were able..... :-/ I know that the thermostat and transfer pipe job was done as correctly as possible, including a redoo when fitting new O rings...
Remember the thermostat had been removed from your car for some reason by a previous owner which meant that it was not heating up correctly, hence the cold cabin heater. Once it was replaced, the cabin heat returned but it could mean that flow is getting restricted elsewhere now.
If the rag jammed on top of the oil cooler plate is a guage of the standard of work done by the previous owner, who knows what other mysteries the car can potentially reveal..........
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You're right Broocie. You did a great job but the previous owner didn't take care of the car properly and now it's got another problem.
I had a look and it's not leaking from the thermostat housing or transfer pipe. Thanks again for sorting it out for me.
I think the previous owner sold it because he knew the engine had problems. I bought it off Ebay and the listing said nothing about the engine not warming up.
Thanks again Broocie!
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The source of the leak really needs to by tied down as best as you were able..... :-/ I know that the thermostat and transfer pipe job was done as correctly as possible, including a redoo when fitting new O rings...
Remember the thermostat had been removed from your car for some reason by a previous owner which meant that it was not heating up correctly, hence the cold cabin heater. Once it was replaced, the cabin heat returned but it could mean that flow is getting restricted elsewhere now.
If the rag jammed on top of the oil cooler plate is a guage of the standard of work done by the previous owner, who knows what other mysteries the car can potentially reveal..........
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Now, now, Broocie, don't be depressing Kate too much. ;D
It can seem daunting, Kate, but the problem will almost certainly be solveable relatively easily once the cause is established. If you go to a garage, just get a report first of all and post the results here for dissection by the known experts.
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You're right Broocie. You did a great job but the previous owner didn't take care of the car properly and now it's got another problem.
I had a look and it's not leaking from the thermostat housing or transfer pipe. Thanks again for sorting it out for me.
I think the previous owner sold it because he knew the engine had problems. I bought it off Ebay and the listing said nothing about the engine not warming up.
Thanks again Broocie!
Was there not signs of red hylomar being used to seal the oil cooler plate?
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yes....... :(
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yes....... :(
I know where I would be placing my money for the source of the leak!
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Where would that be Mark?
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I'm taking the car to the garage tomorrow.
Does anyone think the cars a duffer and I should scrap it and get a new one? :-/
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Does anyone think the cars a duffer and I should scrap it and get a new one?
Didn't have a close look at it at Telford but it is unlikely to be anything major. Problem is, as you are already aware, garages keep making a meal out of things.
The problem is there's quite a bit of dismantling required to find leaks like this, and it normally turns out to be something straightforward at the end of it.
A garage won't like running up an open-ended labour bill without some certainty of what the problem is. They will usually say it's the head gaskets, knowing that once they've landed a nice big job to do, any little leaks can be fixed along the way. >:(
Kevin
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Thanks for the advice, Kevin! :y
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Where would that be Mark?
One thing we noticed was that the oil cooler plate in the bottom of the valley had been fitted using red hylomar......it needs to be a special flange sealent or you get water leaks!
I suspect its thrown the towel in and is leaking.
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Where would that be Mark?
One thing we noticed was that the oil cooler plate in the bottom of the valley had been fitted using red hylomar......it needs to be a special flange sealent or you get water leaks!
I suspect its thrown the towel in and is leaking.
Thanks Mark. So would it be difficult to fix? I realise all those parts would need to come off again so do you think my local back street garage will be able to fix it?
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It isn't to harder a job to be quite honest, but if it were me who's oil cooler plate was leaking I would fit a new oil cooler as you have to remove the plate to re seal it, plus by putting a new oil cooler in you save yourself a lot of messing around when the cooler goes....
Are you not close to a member of the forum who can do it for you?
I would do it for you if you could get it here :y
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Thanks loo-knee but the coolant gushes out so I couldn't get the car to Stoke as it overheats after couple of miles.
Is the oil cooler expensive?
I don't know if there are any oof members around my way - I wish there were!
Thanks again for the offer! :y
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looking at the map kate there are a few not to far from you,hopefully someone can help a damsel in distress.
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looking at the map kate there are a few not to far from you,hopefully someone can help a damsel in distress.
Well if there is anyone near me who can help that would be great! :y
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The source of the leak really needs to by tied down as best as you were able..... :-/ I know that the thermostat and transfer pipe job was done as correctly as possible, including a redoo when fitting new O rings...
Remember the thermostat had been removed from your car for some reason by a previous owner which meant that it was not heating up correctly, hence the cold cabin heater. Once it was replaced, the cabin heat returned but it could mean that flow is getting restricted elsewhere now.
If the rag jammed on top of the oil cooler plate is a guage of the standard of work done by the previous owner, who knows what other mysteries the car can potentially reveal..........
[/highlight]
Now, now, Broocie, don't be depressing Kate too much. ;D
It can seem daunting, Kate, but the problem will almost certainly be solveable relatively easily once the cause is established. If you go to a garage, just get a report first of all and post the results here for dissection by the known experts.
I do hope so - got tomorrow off to have another go with fixing my MV6!
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If water is gushing out at the front and back of the engine it does seem to sound asthough cooler plate could be leaking.... does everyone agree?
Oil Coolers are around £90, plus four washers, sealer think £100 all in all...... I only say about changing it while it is all off, plus it is far easier to do before cooler goes if that makes sense, because the water system needs cleaning many times to get the gunky water and oil mixture which is a pain in the arse....
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Is it a hard job? I might have a go myself! :o
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Is there a guide to oil cooler replacement, one for dummies? :P
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I dont mean this to be rude Kate but do you mess under the bonnet on your car?
I don't think its a hard job and I am Certainly not a Mark DTM.....
But it is rather daunting the first time.....
You will also need a torque wrench when you put it all back together....
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I haved changed spark plugs on cars before and I know that is a simple job in comparison.
I watched Broocie do my thermostat and it scares me to think of doing it. It's money thats the problem as I'm not working at the moment and garages charge a fortune and always try and rip me off.
I'm taking it to the garage tomorrow but most of the garages round my way only want simple little jobs to do. The last time I took it to a garage the mechanic acted like I'd taken a space shuttle in for repair! ;D
What would I use a torque wrench for by the way?
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its not a hard job, but certainly time consuming.
As well as the normal sockets, inc torx sockets, you will need s crowsfoot spanner (19mm?) to undo bottom end of oil pipes near filter.
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I would guess the cooler would not need changing given it looked quite new although poorly fitted!
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I would guess the cooler would not need changing given it looked quite new although poorly fitted!
I agree, I would investigate before buying bits. Have the (grey?) sealant ready though :y
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and spare dowty washers
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I think I'll get the garage to do it! :P
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Let's remember that Kate isn't conversant with all the technicalities of part/tool names, fellas.
If it's the oil cooler, Kate, this is like a small radiator, sitting in the bowels of the engine unfortunately, (where Broocie was at Shifnal), through which the oil passes to be maintained at a safe temperature by water from the cooling system. The oil cooler itself will be intact, otherwise you would have noticed Loo Knee's gungy mess in your cooling system expansion tank. The water flow is obviously run through pipes to the oil cooler and it seems there was evidence of the sealing having been botched, and it does seem that this has broken down causing your present problem.
The solution would be to strip the engine to the same point as at Shifnal, and then go a bit further to reseal the oil cooler plate with the correct equipment or, as Loo Knee suggests, replace the oil cooler as well, if necessary, as a belt and braces job.
If you could find someone to help and/or advise and provide the few extra tools required, you could do it yourself perfectly well, but it is going to cost you money for parts and you would be wise to allow for the car being off the road for a while so that you could take your time.
It's a pity you don't have a garage you can trust. It might be an option to offer to pay a member with the appropriate knowledge to do the work for/with you.
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To answer your question, Kate, the job is not one which would prompt me to scrap the car unless I knew that a dozen other things were wrong.
With all the opinions voiced here so far, could you not have a chat with a garage to see if it sounds as if they know what they're talking about before committing to any spend?
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I would certainly help out if I was nearby, I'm not sure how far you are from me, and my next couple of weekends are certainly tied up.
My biggest advice would be not to drive it at all, if it's dumping coolant at that rate. The result would be the heads warping, which in turn WILL make the car closer to the scrap yard...
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Thanks for the advice. :y
Got a call from the garage today and they said it looked like the water pump. They said they would sort it out.
They also said that they could do the cambelt at the same time as it involves stipping the engine so it might as well be done.
I hope this is right?
Thanks again for the advice. Now I'm worried that the oil cooler will go next. :-X
This job is costing over £200 which I have had to borrow from a friend.
I've got to sell my private reg now to pay her back.
They are keeping the car tonight so I will let you know what happens tomorrow. :-*
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Thanks for the advice. :y
Got a call from the garage today and they said it looked like the water pump. They said they would sort it out.
They also said that they could do the cambelt at the same time as it involves stipping the engine so it might as well be done.
I hope this is right?
Thanks again for the advice. Now I'm worried that the oil cooler will go next. :-X
This job is costing over £200 which I have had to borrow from a friend.
I've got to sell my private reg now to pay her back.
They are keeping the car tonight so I will let you know what happens tomorrow. :-*
Coolant is in the wrong place for it to be the water pump IMHO
And when they do the cambelt they must be changing the tensioners and idler as well as using the proper locking/timing tools, are they doing this?
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Kate, just a thought, if you are worried about their diagnosis then refer them to this site and the guide on the oil cooler removal and refit, also the sealants that you need to do it.
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Coolant is in the wrong place for it to be the water pump IMHO
And when they do the cambelt they must be changing the tensioners and idler as well as using the proper locking/timing tools, are they doing this?
I don't know Mark, they never said.
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Kate, just a thought, if you are worried about their diagnosis then refer them to this site and the guide on the oil cooler removal and refit, also the sealants that you need to do it.
Mechanics never seem to like to get advice from women.
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Kate it is your car and if they have a problem with that then take it some where else. you are the cutomer and you demand that it be repaired to your satisfaction and that includes them refering them to those that know how to do it. :y
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They have started work on it now. How will I know if they have done it properly?
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Well first of all it wont be leaking, but if it is refuse to accecpt the car untill it if fixed and ask to have all the parts that they have replaced returned to you. if it fails at a later date take it back and demand that it is sorted at there expence as they miss diagnosd the fault. Bear in mind that the water pump is about £25 and the coolant system needs about 4.5 litres of anti freeze for a 50.50 mix. :y
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Thanks for the advice. I will get a receipt and take it back if it leaks again. I have used the garage before and they seem honest - it's a father and son team and they have been alright in the past.
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OK kate good luck, if there of any thing of a decent garage they will take some advice as they will not have knowledge of every fault on every car. :y
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I am worried because 200 quid is cheap hence why I have a suspicion they are only changing the belt.
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I am worried because 200 quid is cheap hence why I have a suspicion they are only changing the belt.
Will there still be a risk of it snapping Mark?
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I am worried because 200 quid is cheap hence why I have a suspicion they are only changing the belt.
Will there still be a risk of it snapping Mark?
The belts dont fail for no reasons, they are normaly taken out by the idlers or tensioner.
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Maybe I should ask about the idlers and tensioner?
They won't like it though, me being a woman.
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Kate.
I have some Oil Cooler Plate sealer here, I would need to call and get some dowty washers, then Captain Zok and Myself would come up and do this cooler plate for ya Saturday.
But are you saying the Cambelt and Tensioners need doing? If so, we or you would need to get the bits so we can do it too.....
We obviously wouldn't want any thing for doing it but would ask for my petrol.
Cheers
Daz :y
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Kate.
I have some Oil Cooler Plate sealer here, I would need to call and get some dowty washers, then Captain Zok and Myself would come up and do this cooler plate for ya Saturday.
But are you saying the Cambelt and Tensioners need doing? If so, we or you would need to get the bits so we can do it too.....
We obviously wouldn't want any thing for doing it but would ask for my petrol.
Cheers
Daz :y
Thats really nice of you Daz, thanks very much.
Unfortunately I took the car to the garage today so they are supposed to be doing the work.
They reckon it is the water pump but said they would do the cambelt at the same time. I don't trust them really to be honest but they have got the car now and have started the work.
I really appreciate your offer and I know just know that something else is going to go wrong right away.
I'll let you know what happens. It'll probably need even more work.
Thanks very much Daz, you're the best! :y
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Well do you want the bad news or the even worse news?
Got a call from the garage today. It's not the water pump as they said. They took the car to bits and said that one of the cylinders was knackered and they said something about reskimming.
They said it would cost about £700 and they weren't sure if they could do it. I haven't got £700 anyway and the car is not even worth that.
So the work is costing me £100 and the car is knackered.
I'm really pi**ed off now as I have no car. I did share a Beetle with my friend that I live with but it's going to be off the road soon due to needing welding for its MOT.
I'm sick as a chip. :'(
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I wouldn't be too disheartened just yet. It sounds like the usual "must be the head gasket" rubbish that garages come out with when they can't be bothered or lack the skills to investigate further.
I'd tell them to put it all back together and take Loo Knee and CaptainZok up on their offer. Most likely to be the oil cooler cover plate still.
Kevin
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I wouldn't be too disheartened just yet. It sounds like the usual "must be the head gasket" rubbish that garages come out with when they can't be bothered or lack the skills to investigate further.
I'd tell them to put it all back together and take Loo Knee and CaptainZok up on their offer. Most likely to be the oil cooler cover plate still.
Kevin
Thanks Kevin. Do you think it is the oil cooler plate?
I suggested that to the mechainic and he seemed adamant that it wasn't?
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I wouldn't be too disheartened just yet. It sounds like the usual "must be the head gasket" rubbish that garages come out with when they can't be bothered or lack the skills to investigate further.
I'd tell them to put it all back together and take Loo Knee and CaptainZok up on their offer. Most likely to be the oil cooler cover plate still.
Kevin
Thanks Kevin. Do you think it is the oil cooler plate?
I suggested that to the mechainic and he seemed adamant that it wasn't?
Depends :-/
It's possible he's done a thorough job of diagnosing it and indeed found that it's not the oil cooler.
On the other hand (and more likely IMHO) he's not prepared to strip the engine down far enough so that he can SEE the oil cooler until he's landed a £700 quid job.
I would get sopmeone who knows these engines (i.e and OOF'er) give it a once over before condemning it. On the balance of probabilities, the oil cooler plate is a much more likely problem, specially as the incorrect sealant has been observed in that area.
Kevin
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Arrange for it to be towed back to your address as it is , with all parts intact, and let LK and the Captain investigate things as per their very generous offer. I'm sure they'll be able to diagnose properly, and if it's already stripped down the jobs will be so much easier/quicker. If you can get the tensioner and pulleys on Trade Club, it will save a lot of money.
If the garage doesn't hand you a new belt in its packaging make sure they haven't charged you.
Good luck,
Bill.
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Well if Loo Knee and Captain Zok are willing to come on Saturday I will gladly pay the petrol and parts etc.
That is so nice of them. :y
My friend and I will make some food (do you like corned beef pie?) and I've got some home made wine (for taking home)!
Otherwise the car will have to go to the scrapyard. :'(
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......
But are you saying the Cambelt and Tensioners need doing? If so, we or you would need to get the bits so we can do it too.......
If you get into cam belts etc & you need a cam lock kit I'm only down the road from John/CpnZok.
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I think both CapnZok and Loo-Knee have got one.
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Thanks for all your help.
Just got the car back and the 'report' says: 1. poss. o/s cylinder 2. head gasket leak.
So it's this that needs sorting really, rather than the cambelt.
I hope it's the oil cooler as head gasket problems sound fatal to me.
:-*
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so have they removed one of you cylinder heads kate ?? if so you are gona need headgasket set !! >:( of wich they will have had no bussiness in doing so ! :o
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I didn't read it that way Mark..
I hope they didn't charge you Kate, given that their original diagnosis was so far off the mark (although I'm afraid they did..)
There second diagnosis is almost certainly wrong - did they expain why they now thought HG was the problem? I don't see why bore wear would cause an external coolant leak anyway.
Very frustrating.
I suspect that as you now have a car running hotter (as the stat is fixed), this has now caused something else to leak - possibly the cooler plate as suggested. Its worth shining a torch around the engine - particularly round the back (if you stand next to the drivers side wheel) to see if you can see moisture higher up. Down at the sump it could have come from anywhere.
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Hi everyone. Had my thermostat done at the cambelt party and now it's leaking coolant really badly. :'(
Do you think it will be the coming from the thermostat housing or transfer pipe? Or could there be another source?
Any help would be greatly appreciated as I can only drive a couple of miles without overheating. :-X
Thanks very much!
Did you replace the gasket between the thermostat casing and engine, if there was one?#
Lizzie Zoom x :o
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If it says poss No 1 cylinder head gasket they have not removed the head and if they had they would have seen a problem or not, so you can rule out hg failure. I will put my money on a oil cooler plate leak, and the car is not ready for the scrapper yet. As kevin has said they do not want to strip it down untill you have agreed to spending loads of hard earned, and then they find the leaking plate and they are ££££ in. ::)
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To answer your questions:
I don't know if they removed the cylinder heads but I doubt it very much.
They charged £70 for nothing really.
They didn't really explain properly why HG was a problem.
Yes o rings were used I think when doing thermostat. Broocie did the thermostat job but only a used transfer pipe was available so I thought this might have been a problem. Broocie did a great job by the way, the police are very lucky! :y
Thanks for all your advice! :y
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Knowing ht21 he will have done the job puckker, but still think it is plate leaking. ;)
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Loo-knee I have sent you an email with my phone number and address. Let me know if you don't get it as I'm not sure if my email is working. :y
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Hi everyone. Had my thermostat done at the cambelt party and now it's leaking coolant really badly. :'(
Do you think it will be the coming from the thermostat housing or transfer pipe? Or could there be another source?
Any help would be greatly appreciated as I can only drive a couple of miles without overheating. :-X
Thanks very much!
Did you replace the gasket between the thermostat casing and engine, if there was one?#
Lizzie Zoom x :o
There is a big rubber O ring and i am certain it would have been fitted :y
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Loo-knee I have sent you an email with my phone number and address. Let me know if you don't get it as I'm not sure if my email is working. :y
Yeap you e-mailed perfectly :D