Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: VX1 on 16 September 2008, 18:37:57
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I have red the how to on replacing the lower wishbones and drop links, but there is no mention on how long it should take for each side. It takes me approx 5 hours. Is this the norm or should it be less?
TIA :y
Paul :y
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I have red the how to on replacing the lower wishbones and drop links, but there is no mention on how long it should take for each side. It takes me approx 5 hours. Is this the norm or should it be less?
TIA :y
Paul :y
You get a technique pretty quickly with this job, I reacon on 1.5-2 hours a pair.
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I have red the how to on replacing the lower wishbones and drop links, but there is no mention on how long it should take for each side. It takes me approx 5 hours. Is this the norm or should it be less?
TIA :y
Paul :y
You get a technique pretty quickly with this job, I reacon on 1.5-2 hours a pair.
For both sides or each side? I tend to get frustrated on re-fitting and linning up the rear bolt.
Paul :y
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In fairness, we had all the tools out and jack/stands ready but my mate and I did the 2nd one in 45 minutes.
The first one took 3 hours...
The difference was down to learning that releasing the balljoint first releases the load on the wishbone. You can then keep it all lined up to remove the main bolts and pull it straight out. Reverse the process for refitting.
This approach needed a spare jack under the hub and a big lever :)
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So 5 hours is realistic for time for stubborn bolts etc? I have done these many a time but alway's come across with siezed bolts on all the ones I have done. Plus-gaz wil be used first on ALL the bolts first though.
Paul :y
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Yes, I was lucky I didn't have any seized bolts. Just one seized nut - the one keeping my ears apart...
I liberally greased the bolts and kingpin on reassembly too.
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..... and kingpin ......
Errr! :-? :-? :-? which Kingpin would that be? ;)
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my right arm must be considerably bigger than the left then, as left pass side took a lot longer. It has leveling sensors but apart that i guess the more you do the easier it gets. I guess 5 hrs would be about right.
I found the trick was getting the rear bush in without the spacer twisting in the holes and jamming. Lineing it up right so the bolt just drops in makes such a differance.
Car pulls alot less but still does a bit. Wim on thurs all being well.
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..... and kingpin ......
Errr! :-? :-? :-? which Kingpin would that be? ;)
King pin is the ball joint on the end that attaches to the hub. 3 points of contact, 2 bush bolts and the king pin. Is that that you meant Andy?
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my right arm must be considerably bigger than the left then, as left pass side took a lot longer. It has leveling sensors but apart that i guess the more you do the easier it gets. I guess 5 hrs would be about right.
I found the trick was getting the rear bush in without the spacer twisting in the holes and jamming. Lineing it up right so the bolt just drops in makes such a differance.
Car pulls alot less but still does a bit. Wim on thurs all being well.
Spacer?? :-/ :-?
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my right arm must be considerably bigger than the left then, as left pass side took a lot longer. It has leveling sensors but apart that i guess the more you do the easier it gets. I guess 5 hrs would be about right.
I found the trick was getting the rear bush in without the spacer twisting in the holes and jamming. Lineing it up right so the bolt just drops in makes such a differance.
Car pulls alot less but still does a bit. Wim on thurs all being well.
Spacer?? :-/ :-?
Yes, sorry, poor choice of words. The metal tube, or spacer as i called it, running through the rubber of the bush that the bolt goes through. Because its difficult(or it is when i do it) to get the wish bone in at the right angle, i often find that the metal centre of the bush twists into the bolt holes as the wish bone is under tension from the anti roll bar, as its in the way a bit.
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.....King pin is the ball joint on the end that attaches to the hub. 3 points of contact, 2 bush bolts and the king pin. Is that that you meant Andy?
A ball joint is a ..... ball joint. ;) A kingpin is from a suspension setup that you'd get off a Scimitar or many other 1950/1960 cars that require greasing or oiling via a nipple every hundred yards.
best I could find (http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.visn2.com/images/Front_Suspension_Componentsmgcar_club1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.visn2.com/Flash%2520Website/1500_Suspension_System.html&h=278&w=293&sz=24&hl=en&start=24&usg=__wPPiWASeSOmRgpnBEjglAVHeOOI=&tbnid=aDVAW1RtOg1HDM:&tbnh=109&tbnw=115&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dkingpin%2Bsuspension%26start%3D21%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN)
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.....King pin is the ball joint on the end that attaches to the hub. 3 points of contact, 2 bush bolts and the king pin. Is that that you meant Andy?
A ball joint is a ..... ball joint. ;) A kingpin is from a suspension setup that you'd get off a Scimitar or many other 1950/1960 cars that require greasing or oiling via a nipple every hundred yards.
best I could find (http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.visn2.com/images/Front_Suspension_Componentsmgcar_club1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.visn2.com/Flash%2520Website/1500_Suspension_System.html&h=278&w=293&sz=24&hl=en&start=24&usg=__wPPiWASeSOmRgpnBEjglAVHeOOI=&tbnid=aDVAW1RtOg1HDM:&tbnh=109&tbnw=115&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dkingpin%2Bsuspension%26start%3D21%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN)
same difference - kingpin was a pin in ye olden days but still refered to as KPI 'King Pin Inclination' in suspension design - basicaly the hub carrier / upright is the Kingpin :y
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingpin_(automotive_part)
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took me a day to do both sides :-[
really struggled to get bottom ball joint separated on O/S :(
N/S not to bad - tricky to get back together used spring compressors to pull strut up and big screwdriver from below to align rear bush :y
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same difference - kingpin was a pin in ye olden days but still refered to as KPI 'King Pin Inclination' in suspension design - basicaly the hub carrier / upright is the Kingpin :y
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingpin_(automotive_part)
They're completely differnt from each other. Kingpin angle is still refered to but no cars now use a kingpin.
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Sorry for the wrong terminology. I meant the waisted pin that is connected to the ball joint and sits in the hub carrier, eventually. The same one that pinches the bolt on removal so you can't get it out and sits too deep in the hole so you can't get the bolt back in afterwards.
If someone can give me the correct terminology I would be grateful.
In the meantime - I still think it should start with 'King' given the royal pain in the arse it creates :)
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same difference - kingpin was a pin in ye olden days but still refered to as KPI 'King Pin Inclination' in suspension design - basicaly the hub carrier / upright is the Kingpin :y
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingpin_(automotive_part)
They're completely differnt from each other. Kingpin angle is still refered to but no cars now use a kingpin.
Well, someone needs to phone up wheels in motion and tell them they dont know what they are talking about then, because thats what wim called it a king pin at the knowledge day.
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Well, someone needs to phone up wheels in motion and tell them they dont know what they are talking about then, because thats what wim called it a king pin at the knowledge day.
People still refer to wing mirrors, fan belts, pulling the chain etc etc, but your Omega doesn't have a kingpin. A kingpin angle but not a kingpin.
I'm sure that Tony(?) from WIM will agree.
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same difference - kingpin was a pin in ye olden days but still refered to as KPI 'King Pin Inclination' in suspension design - basicaly the hub carrier / upright is the Kingpin :y
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingpin_(automotive_part)
They're completely differnt from each other. Kingpin angle is still refered to but no cars now use a kingpin.
No they're not - essentialy the "kingpin" is the axis formed by the hub carrier and strut pivoting between the bottom balljoint and the strut top mount. (on a mcpherson strut type setup)
have a read of this and you'll understand how the kingpin inclination effects suspension control:
http://www.amazon.com/Competition-Car-Suspension-practical-handbook/dp/1844253287/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221594922&sr=8-2 ;)
agreed they haven't got an actual kingpin but still does the same thing :y
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agreed they haven't got an actual kingpin but still does the same thing :y
Which was what I said in the very first place. :) The original mention of kingpin actually related to the bottom ball joint. :y
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I have red the how to on replacing the lower wishbones and drop links, but there is no mention on how long it should take for each side. It takes me approx 5 hours. Is this the norm or should it be less?
TIA :y
Paul :y
i managed to do a bottom arm or wishbone which ever you want to called it in around 20 mins to half hour
but had not truble with the bolts bit of grunt and they came undun
took just over an hour to do both sides thats with taking the wheels on and off
(oh and no tea breaks lol)
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Just got a quote to do the the wish bone bushes etc £157.00. Cheap? :-/ Got to better than 5 hours fighting a king pin :y
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i got my wishbones at £30 each for delphi with the vat
at trade discount and extra discount knocked off lol not saying how
lol
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i got my wishbones at £30 each for delphi with the vat
at trade discount and extra discount knocked off lol not saying how
lol
so that means I'm paying £100 for fitting. I'm happy with that after reading the probs the other guys have had ;)
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i never had any probs
quite straight forward
ive been doing stuff like that all my life working in a garage since i was 14
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i never had any probs
quite straight forward
ive been doing stuff like that all my life working in a garage since i was 14
I think I am getting to old to scrabble underneath cars now. :-[ Used to love it as it saved a fortune, but not now although I love my Omegas. ;)
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shame u didnt live closer i would of gladly gid you a hand to get them done and sorted as now i dont work would of gid me something to pass the time while the other half was in work
lol
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I think I am getting to old to scrabble underneath cars now. :-[ Used to love it as it saved a fortune, but not now although I love my Omegas. ;)
My Dad's 71 now & still crawls about under his car. :y
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I think I am getting to old to scrabble underneath cars now. :-[ Used to love it as it saved a fortune, but not now although I love my Omegas. ;)
My Dad's 71 now & still crawls about under his car. :y
Spose your right, my dads 90 and still tinkers with his car. Ok, but I'm not a mechanic and maybe just a tad bone idol ::)
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I think I am getting to old to scrabble underneath cars now. :-[ Used to love it as it saved a fortune, but not now although I love my Omegas. ;)
My Dad's 71 now & still crawls about under his car. :y
Spose your right, my dads 90 and still tinkers with his car. Ok, but I'm not a mechanic and maybe just a tad bone idol ::)
While I was answering you my wife said "Yes, you are bone idol " Wonen!!!! They just don't understand ::)
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While I was answering you my wife said "Yes, you are bone idol " Wonen!!!! They just don't understand ::)
It's funny how they seem to have such a low opinion of us! ;D ;D
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While I was answering you my wife said "Yes, you are bone idol " Wonen!!!! They just don't understand ::)
It's funny how they seem to have such a low opinion of us! ;D ;D
Think it might be because I asked here to make me a coffee when she has finished the dishes ;)
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i got my wishbones at £30 each for delphi with the vat
at trade discount and extra discount knocked off lol not saying how
lol
so that means I'm paying £100 for fitting. I'm happy with that after reading the probs the other guys have had ;)
no REAL probs just usual old rusty car issues trying to undo 11year old bolts :D
plus it was snowing when i did mine - slowed me down a bit ;D
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i got my wishbones at £30 each for delphi with the vat
at trade discount and extra discount knocked off lol not saying how
lol
so that means I'm paying £100 for fitting. I'm happy with that after reading the probs the other guys have had ;)
no REAL probs just usual old rusty car issues trying to undo 11year old bolts :D
plus it was snowing when i did mine - slowed me down a bit ;D
Yes, but you Herford guys are tuff with all that snow and stuff. Might attempt it if the sun was guarenteed for a few days. ::)
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i got my wishbones at £30 each for delphi with the vat
at trade discount and extra discount knocked off lol not saying how
lol
so that means I'm paying £100 for fitting. I'm happy with that after reading the probs the other guys have had ;)
no REAL probs just usual old rusty car issues trying to undo 11year old bolts :D
plus it was snowing when i did mine - slowed me down a bit ;D
Yes, but you Herford guys are tuff with all that snow and stuff. Might attempt it if the sun was guarenteed for a few days. ::)
i'm not one of 'those' Hereford guys ;)
even tougher ;D
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I read up lots about doing wishbones before i did mine, getting the ball joint pinch bolt off and re-locating the rear wishbone mounting bolt seem to be the usual problems. As does the fact that both the wishbone bold heads and nuts are both 21mm (who of us diy'ers has two 21mm sockets?)
I used a smear of copper grease on the inner surface of the subframe mountings and a little bit on the rear bearing steel insert, made it easy to line up, especially if you used the bolt inserted from underneath and whacked it in with a hammer first to line up the joint (you are replacing the bolts anyhow aren't you!!)
Pinch bolt was my problem, had to take the brake calliper and calliper mounting off first to get an 18mm socket on it squarely, easy enough to do, but annoying delay.
And a 13/16th AF socket fits better than a metric one on the 21mm main bolts anyhow :)
Mine took me 3 months to do! is that a record?
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I read up lots about doing wishbones before i did mine, getting the ball joint pinch bolt off and re-locating the rear wishbone mounting bolt seem to be the usual problems. As does the fact that both the wishbone bold heads and nuts are both 21mm (who of us diy'ers has two 21mm sockets?)
I used a smear of copper grease on the inner surface of the subframe mountings and a little bit on the rear bearing steel insert, made it easy to line up, especially if you used the bolt inserted from underneath and whacked it in with a hammer first to line up the joint (you are replacing the bolts anyhow aren't you!!)
Pinch bolt was my problem, had to take the brake calliper and calliper mounting off first to get an 18mm socket on it squarely, easy enough to do, but annoying delay.
And a 13/16th AF socket fits better than a metric one on the 21mm main bolts anyhow :)
Mine took me 3 months to do! is that a record?
Got to do mine soon, would appreciate a list of tools required so I don't get caught out :y
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I read up lots about doing wishbones before i did mine, getting the ball joint pinch bolt off and re-locating the rear wishbone mounting bolt seem to be the usual problems. As does the fact that both the wishbone bold heads and nuts are both 21mm (who of us diy'ers has two 21mm sockets?)
I used a smear of copper grease on the inner surface of the subframe mountings and a little bit on the rear bearing steel insert, made it easy to line up, especially if you used the bolt inserted from underneath and whacked it in with a hammer first to line up the joint (you are replacing the bolts anyhow aren't you!!)
Pinch bolt was my problem, had to take the brake calliper and calliper mounting off first to get an 18mm socket on it squarely, easy enough to do, but annoying delay.
And a 13/16th AF socket fits better than a metric one on the 21mm main bolts anyhow :)
Mine took me 3 months to do! is that a record?
Most do and dont know it.....think the older large spark plugs :y
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I read up lots about doing wishbones before i did mine, getting the ball joint pinch bolt off and re-locating the rear wishbone mounting bolt seem to be the usual problems. As does the fact that both the wishbone bold heads and nuts are both 21mm (who of us diy'ers has two 21mm sockets?)
I used a smear of copper grease on the inner surface of the subframe mountings and a little bit on the rear bearing steel insert, made it easy to line up, especially if you used the bolt inserted from underneath and whacked it in with a hammer first to line up the joint (you are replacing the bolts anyhow aren't you!!)
Pinch bolt was my problem, had to take the brake calliper and calliper mounting off first to get an 18mm socket on it squarely, easy enough to do, but annoying delay.
And a 13/16th AF socket fits better than a metric one on the 21mm main bolts anyhow :)
Mine took me 3 months to do! is that a record?
Most do and dont know it.....think the older large spark plugs :y
Really, thats interesting, will have a rummage through the toolbox later :y
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Just got a quote to do the the wish bone bushes etc £157.00. Cheap? :-/ Got to better than 5 hours fighting a king pin :y
£19 for bushes(thanks to iggy21) , some postage(£4iirc), and a phew beers for Mr DTM(in the process of sorting that). With help from ians to bring the pressed wishbones back from Newent. The mighty oof at work, cant beat it.
I have my old wishbones here if anybody want to press some new bushes into them and have them ready to fit to the car.
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I read up lots about doing wishbones before i did mine, getting the ball joint pinch bolt off and re-locating the rear wishbone mounting bolt seem to be the usual problems. As does the fact that both the wishbone bold heads and nuts are both 21mm (who of us diy'ers has two 21mm sockets?)
I used a smear of copper grease on the inner surface of the subframe mountings and a little bit on the rear bearing steel insert, made it easy to line up, especially if you used the bolt inserted from underneath and whacked it in with a hammer first to line up the joint (you are replacing the bolts anyhow aren't you!!)
Pinch bolt was my problem, had to take the brake calliper and calliper mounting off first to get an 18mm socket on it squarely, easy enough to do, but annoying delay.
And a 13/16th AF socket fits better than a metric one on the 21mm main bolts anyhow :)
Mine took me 3 months to do! is that a record?
Got to do mine soon, would appreciate a list of tools required so I don't get caught out :y
The pinch bolt nut is 18mm which many socket sets don't have. I would recommend a hardened (black) socket as I managed to split my normal one (Halfords replaced it no quibbles :y) the first time I did a wb.
The wishbone comes out and goes in much easier if its horizontal - which means getting the hub gubbins out of the way - hence discussion on spring compressors, removing the caliper (improves access to the pinch bolt too) and jacking on the hub.
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I read up lots about doing wishbones before i did mine, getting the ball joint pinch bolt off and re-locating the rear wishbone mounting bolt seem to be the usual problems. As does the fact that both the wishbone bold heads and nuts are both 21mm (who of us diy'ers has two 21mm sockets?)
I used a smear of copper grease on the inner surface of the subframe mountings and a little bit on the rear bearing steel insert, made it easy to line up, especially if you used the bolt inserted from underneath and whacked it in with a hammer first to line up the joint (you are replacing the bolts anyhow aren't you!!)
Pinch bolt was my problem, had to take the brake calliper and calliper mounting off first to get an 18mm socket on it squarely, easy enough to do, but annoying delay.
And a 13/16th AF socket fits better than a metric one on the 21mm main bolts anyhow :)
Mine took me 3 months to do! is that a record?
Got to do mine soon, would appreciate a list of tools required so I don't get caught out :y
The pinch bolt nut is 18mm which many socket sets don't have. I would recommend a hardened (black) socket as I managed to split my normal one (Halfords replaced it no quibbles :y) the first time I did a wb.
The wishbone comes out and goes in much easier if its horizontal - which means getting the hub gubbins out of the way - hence discussion on spring compressors, removing the caliper (improves access to the pinch bolt too) and jacking on the hub.
From memory and in no particular order,
Torque wrench with 120nm range. But one with a short handle would be handy if there is such a thing.
2 21mm sockets (or 1 socket and 1 spanner.)for bush bolts.
18 mil socket and spanner for pinch bolt(cant remember if pinch bolt and nut are the same size.) i did not remove the hub and caliper so did not use any tools for them.
A hammer and wedge head cold chisel to spread
The ball joint/king pin clamp.
Penetrating oil, plus gas or wd 40.
A long punch to reach the king pin and belt it out from the top while jacked from the bottom to hold the wishbone up.
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oh, and been meaning to ask, how tight do vx do up the wishbone bolts at the factory?
Because if mine where 120nm then im the pope!
They where more like 20 or 30nm. Very easy to undo, so i wonder if the car is on its second set and they where not done up tight enough by the fitter?
Its only done 70k. The wishbones had AA painted on them.
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The best method I find (personaly) for splitting the ball joint is to:
1) Treat with a good penetrant (and WD40 is crap at this!)
2) Tap a small chisel into the hub pinch point to spread it slightly (dont go over the top!)
3) Apply a long lever to the base of the hub pinch point which levers against the end of the wishbone/ball joint assembly.
4) Strike the lever with a heavy hammer close to the ball joint to free the assembly.
5) Now use a long 1/2 inch extension (or other suitable drift) parralel to the strutt (feed it through the maze of pipes and wires so it touches the end of the wishbone/ball joint casting) to tap the ball joint the final 10-15mm out (it takes very little effort at this point, if its still tight repeat the lever trick)
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Ball joint pinch bolt should be 100Nm
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Or the easiest way to do split the ball joint is with a ball joint splitter! The type that are a wedge shaped fork. At the end of the day you are replacing it if you're fitting new 'bones so it doesn't matter if the boot splits!
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Just got a quote to do the the wish bone bushes etc £157.00. Cheap? :-/ Got to better than 5 hours fighting a king pin :y
£19 for bushes(thanks to iggy21) , some postage(£4iirc), and a phew beers for Mr DTM(in the process of sorting that). With help from ians to bring the pressed wishbones back from Newent. The mighty oof at work, cant beat it.
I have my old wishbones here if anybody want to press some new bushes into them and have them ready to fit to the car.
Think it was more than £19.00 unless I underchaged u
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I have found the wedge type splitters problematic with this setup (i.e. on the ones you really cant split it dont work :y)......plus if your re-bushing the wishbones then its not to be recommended
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I have found the wedge type splitters problematic with this setup (i.e. on the ones you really cant split it dont work :y)......plus if your re-bushing the wishbones then its not to be recommended
It certainly didn't work too well on one of James' wishbones (other one was OK), and it will muller the bottom balljoint.
Kevin
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Just got a quote to do the the wish bone bushes etc £157.00. Cheap? :-/ Got to better than 5 hours fighting a king pin :y
£19 for bushes(thanks to iggy21) , some postage(£4iirc), and a phew beers for Mr DTM(in the process of sorting that). With help from ians to bring the pressed wishbones back from Newent. The mighty oof at work, cant beat it.
I have my old wishbones here if anybody want to press some new bushes into them and have them ready to fit to the car.
Think it was more than £19.00 unless I underchaged u
Oh ok may have been, my mad cows disease is getting the better of me.(Moooo)
Edited.
How much did you get a set for iggy?
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The best method I find (personaly) for splitting the ball joint is to:
1) Treat with a good penetrant (and WD40 is crap at this!)
2) Tap a small chisel into the hub pinch point to spread it slightly (dont go over the top!)
3) Apply a long lever to the base of the hub pinch point which levers against the end of the wishbone/ball joint assembly.
4) Strike the lever with a heavy hammer close to the ball joint to free the assembly.
5) Now use a long 1/2 inch extension (or other suitable drift) parralel to the strutt (feed it through the maze of pipes and wires so it touches the end of the wishbone/ball joint casting) to tap the ball joint the final 10-15mm out (it takes very little effort at this point, if its still tight repeat the lever trick)
I take it you do this after removing the pinch bolt :-/
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I read up lots about doing wishbones before i did mine, getting the ball joint pinch bolt off and re-locating the rear wishbone mounting bolt seem to be the usual problems. As does the fact that both the wishbone bold heads and nuts are both 21mm (who of us diy'ers has two 21mm sockets?)
I used a smear of copper grease on the inner surface of the subframe mountings and a little bit on the rear bearing steel insert, made it easy to line up, especially if you used the bolt inserted from underneath and whacked it in with a hammer first to line up the joint (you are replacing the bolts anyhow aren't you!!)
Pinch bolt was my problem, had to take the brake calliper and calliper mounting off first to get an 18mm socket on it squarely, easy enough to do, but annoying delay.
And a 13/16th AF socket fits better than a metric one on the 21mm main bolts anyhow :)
Mine took me 3 months to do! is that a record?
Got to do mine soon, would appreciate a list of tools required so I don't get caught out :y
The pinch bolt nut is 18mm which many socket sets don't have. I would recommend a hardened (black) socket as I managed to split my normal one (Halfords replaced it no quibbles :y) the first time I did a wb.
The wishbone comes out and goes in much easier if its horizontal - which means getting the hub gubbins out of the way - hence discussion on spring compressors, removing the caliper (improves access to the pinch bolt too) and jacking on the hub.
From memory and in no particular order,
Torque wrench with 120nm range. But one with a short handle would be handy if there is such a thing.
2 21mm sockets (or 1 socket and 1 spanner.)for bush bolts.
18 mil socket and spanner for pinch bolt(cant remember if pinch bolt and nut are the same size.) i did not remove the hub and caliper so did not use any tools for them.
A hammer and wedge head cold chisel to spread
The ball joint/king pin clamp.
Penetrating oil, plus gas or wd 40.
A long punch to reach the king pin and belt it out from the top while jacked from the bottom to hold the wishbone up.
Thanks Chris :y
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The best method I find (personaly) for splitting the ball joint is to:
1) Treat with a good penetrant (and WD40 is crap at this!)
2) Tap a small chisel into the hub pinch point to spread it slightly (dont go over the top!)
3) Apply a long lever to the base of the hub pinch point which levers against the end of the wishbone/ball joint assembly.
4) Strike the lever with a heavy hammer close to the ball joint to free the assembly.
5) Now use a long 1/2 inch extension (or other suitable drift) parralel to the strutt (feed it through the maze of pipes and wires so it touches the end of the wishbone/ball joint casting) to tap the ball joint the final 10-15mm out (it takes very little effort at this point, if its still tight repeat the lever trick)
I take it you do this after removing the pinch bolt :-/
Yep
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The best method I find (personaly) for splitting the ball joint is to:
1) Treat with a good penetrant (and WD40 is crap at this!)
2) Tap a small chisel into the hub pinch point to spread it slightly (dont go over the top!)
3) Apply a long lever to the base of the hub pinch point which levers against the end of the wishbone/ball joint assembly.
4) Strike the lever with a heavy hammer close to the ball joint to free the assembly.
5) Now use a long 1/2 inch extension (or other suitable drift) parralel to the strutt (feed it through the maze of pipes and wires so it touches the end of the wishbone/ball joint casting) to tap the ball joint the final 10-15mm out (it takes very little effort at this point, if its still tight repeat the lever trick)
I take it you do this after removing the pinch bolt :-/
Yep
Ta :y
Is it possible to remove the pinch bolt and wishbone without removing the caliper?
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Said yesterday £157.00 that was fitted. Why all the agro buying ball joint splitters, 120mm sockets and sitting on a cold floor for an average of 5 hours. I no my wife says I'm know my wife said I was bone idol but lets put it in perspective. Is it worth the grief for 157 squids :-?
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Said yesterday £157.00 that was fitted. Why all the agro buying ball joint splitters, 120mm sockets and sitting on a cold floor for an average of 5 hours. I no my wife says I'm know my wife said I was bone idol but lets put it in perspective. Is it worth the grief for 157 squids :-?
It is if you haven't got £157 to pay someone to fit them ::)
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Said yesterday £157.00 that was fitted. Why all the agro buying ball joint splitters, 120mm sockets and sitting on a cold floor for an average of 5 hours. I no my wife says I'm know my wife said I was bone idol but lets put it in perspective. Is it worth the grief for 157 squids :-?
It is if you haven't got £157 to pay someone to fit them ::)
Point taken, apoligies :'(
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Just got a quote to do the the wish bone bushes etc £157.00. Cheap? :-/ Got to better than 5 hours fighting a king pin :y
£19 for bushes(thanks to iggy21) , some postage(£4iirc), and a phew beers for Mr DTM(in the process of sorting that). With help from ians to bring the pressed wishbones back from Newent. The mighty oof at work, cant beat it.
I have my old wishbones here if anybody want to press some new bushes into them and have them ready to fit to the car.
Think it was more than £19.00 unless I underchaged u
Oh ok may have been, my mad cows disease is getting the better of me.(Moooo)
Edited.
How much did you get a set for iggy?
2 x £9.00 + 2 x £5.00 + vat - plus you came a got them ?
Unless I have the MOO MOO problem . BAA :D :D
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ar they come in "2s", at last someone who talks my language. ;)
So 28 mooo baas then. :P
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ar they come in "2s", at last someone who talks my language. ;)
So 28 mooo baas then. :P
Cluck !!! oinK !!!
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The best method I find (personaly) for splitting the ball joint is to:
1) Treat with a good penetrant (and WD40 is crap at this!)
2) Tap a small chisel into the hub pinch point to spread it slightly (dont go over the top!)
3) Apply a long lever to the base of the hub pinch point which levers against the end of the wishbone/ball joint assembly.
4) Strike the lever with a heavy hammer close to the ball joint to free the assembly.
5) Now use a long 1/2 inch extension (or other suitable drift) parralel to the strutt (feed it through the maze of pipes and wires so it touches the end of the wishbone/ball joint casting) to tap the ball joint the final 10-15mm out (it takes very little effort at this point, if its still tight repeat the lever trick)
I take it you do this after removing the pinch bolt :-/
Yep
Ta :y
Is it possible to remove the pinch bolt and wishbone without removing the caliper?
yes no probs :)
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[/quote]
Ta :y
Is it possible to remove the pinch bolt and wishbone without removing the caliper[/highlight
I guess so, but I could not get my 18mm socket on either the nut head or nut square. Even when I did after taking caliper holder off it still would not budge - I had to buy a Draper extending wrecking bar (400mm to 600mm) with 1/2 inch drive, and that got it off pretty smartish. Also useful to carry in the boot for the wheel nuts!!
One tip on replacing the wishbones, the front (horizontal) bearing needs to be torqued up with the car on the ground and bearing under load, virtually impossible to do unless you have a pit. What I did was note the angle the wishbones were at whilst car was on the road before even starting the job, I then positioned them to the same angle to tighten them up before re-engaging the ball joint. This method then requires a lot of down force on the wishbone to get the balljoint back into the hub. I found a 3 foot peice of 2x2 softwood wedged under the antiroll bar did the trick but a spare pair of hands is handy here.
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apparently the OOF recomended method (Mark?) is to tighten the front nuts as tight as possible with a normal wrench with the bones loaded i.e. car on the deck, then jack high and torque up :y
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Also correct.
I have never removed the caliper or anything, I just use the correct size socket (half inch), a short extension with bar and a ring spanner.
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Also correct.
I have never removed the caliper or anything, I just use the correct size socket (half inch), a short extension with bar and a ring spanner.
Maybe with my 1/2inch socket set (which is nearly 30 years old) the sockets were slightly too long or the socket shoulder was too thick, it def' fouled the caliper holder in some way. Anyhow it gave me the opportunity to check the calipers, pads and grease the caliper sliders.
apparently the OOF recomended method (Mark?) is to tighten the front nuts as tight as possible with a normal wrench with the bones loaded i.e. car on the deck, then jack high and torque up
That method sounds good to me, wish i had read that before doing the job. But even so space is severely limited on low profile tyres and i have a bad back!!
One other observation, I found that there was not enough clearance on the subframe indent to get a socket and vernier style torque wrench in (squarely) on the front wishbone bearing nut as the diameter of the ratchet head of the torque wrench was to wide.
Maybe again it is possible my sockets are longer, but soon got round that problem - used my spring beam torque wrench instead!!
PS: Heynes joke book says torque is 120nm plus angle tightening of 15 degrees plus another 30 degrees (ie. an extra eight of a turn) which is easily estimated if you don't have an angle gauge thingy guide.
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Still dont understand the need for the angle tighten business. Why not just do it up to 130nm or what ever the equivalent is?
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Exactly Chris, why are we not still doing ft/lbs? Stoopid europe! ;D
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Still dont understand the need for the angle tighten business. Why not just do it up to 130nm or what ever the equivalent is?
Torque loadings are actually very variable ... the measure is the "stiction" usually between the bolt head and the mating surface, although in theory the thread also has "stiction" .. this is often screwed up by folks using oil, grease, spit etc etc that results in inaccurate torque values, especially at higher values.
The correct method of "tightening" is actually the "clamping" force .. the squeeze of the two materials (also called "preload").. this is what angle tightening tries to achieve . it takes the bolt into its "elastic" range, which is why it should ALLWAYS be done in two steps (those you think 15 + 30 = 45 in one go are doing it wrong !!). Angle tightened bolts should always be replaced.
If you want some in depth theory ...
http://www.hexagon.de/tasignat.htm
slightly more readable ..
http://www.boltscience.com/pages/tighten.htm
HTH
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Still dont understand the need for the angle tighten business. Why not just do it up to 130nm or what ever the equivalent is?
Torque loadings are actually very variable ... the measure is the "stiction" usually between the bolt head and the mating surface, although in theory the thread also has "stiction" .. this is often screwed up by folks using oil, grease, spit etc etc that results in inaccurate torque values, especially at higher values.
The correct method of "tightening" is actually the "clamping" force .. the squeeze of the two materials (also called "preload").. this is what angle tightening tries to achieve . it takes the bolt into its "elastic" range, which is why it should ALLWAYS be done in two steps (those you think 15 + 30 = 45 in one go are doing it wrong !!). Angle tightened bolts should always be replaced.
If you want some in depth theory ...
http://www.hexagon.de/tasignat.htm
slightly more readable ..
http://www.boltscience.com/pages/tighten.htm
HTH
Hmm, i did a bolt up and it felt crap so i took the nut off and greased thread and mating surface, obviously it did up alot easier and 120nm was reached with less grunting, so with less friction you might argue that the clamping force would be greater.
I sort of understand the description you kindly posted, but im having trouble getting my head round how turning a nut, which is all you can do with it, one way with a torque wrench is different to turning it to an angle afterwards.
So are we saying after a point(120nm in this case)that the stretching of or elasticity of the bolt is more important than the tightness of the mating surfaces? Or to put it another way, after 120 nm the bolt will be in the correct elastic zone when angle tightened by 30 plus 15, or whatever the spec. is?
I now have a headache.
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Tightening a bolt to a torque depends on the friction between the threads, as to how much clamping force you end up with.
Tightening to an angle (assuming the starting point is roughly the same, I.E. when the bolt has started to clamp) will stretch it by a pre-determined amount regardless of the torque required and will therefore give a more accurate clamping force.
Kevin
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As Kevin says ... another example ...
On a dry nut/bolt you tighten to 80 Nm, then up to 120 Nm .. the bolt might only turn 1/8 of a turn due to the friction being high as the surfaces are dry
On a lubricated nut/bolt, the second tightening might take 1/2 a turn as the friction is far less.
The second bolt will have a higher clamping force as more of the bolt has passed through the nut.
To get the clamping force the same in both cases, tighten to 80 Nm then an additional 1/4 turn.
The use of the 80 Nm figure gives around the same starting point as friction values should not change too much with regard to lubrication at this level.
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Still dont understand the need for the angle tighten business. Why not just do it up to 130nm or what ever the equivalent is?
Torque loadings are actually very variable ... the measure is the "stiction" usually between the bolt head and the mating surface, although in theory the thread also has "stiction" .. this is often screwed up by folks using oil, grease, spit etc etc that results in inaccurate torque values, especially at higher values.
The correct method of "tightening" is actually the "clamping" force .. the squeeze of the two materials (also called "preload").. this is what angle tightening tries to achieve . it takes the bolt into its "elastic" range, which is why it should ALLWAYS be done in two steps (those you think 15 + 30 = 45 in one go are doing it wrong !!). Angle tightened bolts should always be replaced.
If you want some in depth theory ...
http://www.hexagon.de/tasignat.htm
slightly more readable ..
http://www.boltscience.com/pages/tighten.htm
HTH
Hmm, i did a bolt up and it felt crap so i took the nut off and greased thread and mating surface, obviously it did up alot easier and 120nm was reached with less grunting, so with less friction you might argue that the clamping force would be greater.
I sort of understand the description you kindly posted, but im having trouble getting my head round how turning a nut, which is all you can do with it, one way with a torque wrench is different to turning it to an angle afterwards.
So are we saying after a point(120nm in this case)that the stretching of or elasticity of the bolt is more important than the tightness of the mating surfaces? Or to put it another way, after 120 nm the bolt will be in the correct elastic zone when angle tightened by 30 plus 15, or whatever the spec. is?
I now have a headache.
So... er... Yes?