Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: unlucky alf on 12 September 2008, 14:22:17
-
just when i thought id got myself up & running :'( i set off this morning,reversed out of the drive, select "D" & away i went, got about 25 yards [half way across the crossroads] & nothing, ive totally lost all drive, got it back to the house by pushing it, jacked up the side to check the atf level & with it running i took the plug out & got about 2 litres of atf come gushing out, its almost like the whole auto system has chucked all the fluid back into the box, not only that it was cold despite of the engine being warmed up,& for what is was worth i did run the selector up & down the non exsistant gears so obviously my question is why did i lose all drive suddenly & why was there so much atf coming out of the g/box filler plug, im really getting peed off so somebody please help, oh & there was no warning pop up on the screen either.
-
If memory serves me ... as ATF breaks down it actually expands, which might explain the excess fluid you got.
Was the fluid you got out a dirty browny/burned colour ?? if so its another sign of fubared ATF.
Question is why the oil is burned ... could just be very old ?? or is there a major problem inside the gearbox that has caused it... that side is beyond my knowledge I'm afraid.. but I'm sure an more knowledgeable person will pass by shortly and put me right !!
-
My guess is that the fluid pump has failed (thrust washer?) and the torque converter, cooler pipes, etc. have therefore emptied hence the additional fluid in the sump.
Front sump off to have a look, I reckon.
Also, have a look at the fluid for contamination, and see if it smells burnt.
Kevin
-
thanks ENTWWOD, the thing is ive had the car on the road for exactly 1 week since fitting another g/box so the atf was as red as it was new, didnt even get any warning it just went all of a sudden, i probably done 100 miles yesterday & it drove lovely thats why im surprised about what happened today, but thanks anyway.
-
cheers KEVIN, so if im correct ive got to drop the front sump & look for shrapnel, oh happy days >:(
-
As Kevin says then .. sounds like mechanical failure internally.. :(
Can you get the box replaced under any warranty as you've only just changed it ?? I know some places give 28 days on stuff .. but not everywhere does... :(
-
i got it off MUTANTCAV so its down to how nice he wants to be ;)could also do with some help with it as last time it was a total nightmare on my own on 2 axle stands & 2 trolley jacks, not pleasant :'(
-
If the gearbox has been off so recently, might be worth checking the selector lever, switch and wiring are all present and correctly adjusted.
Kevin
-
Stupid thought has occured to me ... (nowt unusual I know)
Given that a large amount of fluid came out, even with the engine running, and we know that this occurs with the engine not running.....
and the reported total and instant lack of drive
could it be the input to the gearbox from the engine has failed ??
Think its called the spigot something or other .... so although the engine is turning the input to the gearbox is not .... if that makes any sense to anyone ??
-
i see your point KEVIN but it drove o,k all day yesterday, also it wouldnt explain the g/box spewing out 2 litres or more of atf even with the engine running, i filled it correctly when i fitted it & double checked it as i like to be 100% sure, also i would still be able to select 1,2 &3 but getting sod all drive from anywhere.
-
i see your point KEVIN but it drove o,k all day yesterday, also it wouldnt explain the g/box spewing out 2 litres or more of atf even with the engine running, i filled it correctly when i fitted it & double checked it as i like to be 100% sure, also i would still be able to select 1,2 &3 but getting sod all drive from anywhere.
No, I was clutching at straws. :(
The other possibility I can think of is that the filter has fallen off and the pump is therefore not picking up oil. Was the filter changed with the 'box? Any chance it could have been inadequately torqued?
Drive from engine to fluid pump is from the lugs on the nose of the torque converter so unlikely to have failed without a lot of drama, I'd say.
My prognosis is that fluid supply has failed for some reason, TC has emptied hence loss of drive and excess oil.
Don't suppose the fluid cooler pipes have kinked? Can't see that affecting oil supply to the main bits of the box though. :-/
Kevin
-
cheers ENTWOOD, the main shaft from an auto goes into the torque converter so i dont believe there is a spigot as such, the t/c bolts to the ring gear so when the engine is running its got to turn!, now i know why ive avoided automatics! humphhhhh :(
-
cheers KEVIN, ive checked the pipes & they are fine, as for the filter i didnt touch it as i didnt want to mess about with it until i knew it ran o,k, then i was going to do the lot engine oil change as well as the box as ive just ordered my ecu chip so wanted everything pukka so to speak for when the power increases, this has buggered those plans innit >:(
-
there are a few things you can check before you condemn the box, for instance your system voltage ie 14.4 volts at the battery,if it goes beyond 18v the gearbox will lose ALL drive.also check your electrical connections on the side of the box as one off them will b@gger it up also.at the moment you can rule out pump failure or tc failure simply because they would make "horrible" noises when they fail.filter falling off will make no difference to the oil pickup as the inlet is permamently submerged in oil anyway.for what its worth at the moment i am inclined to think you have an electrical issue.
-
thanks sassanach, im still confused as to why so much atf came out of the plug, by rights if the pump is working surely i wouldnt have got over 2 litres of atf come gushing out of the filler hole as the pump would have been cycling it, anyhow i will check the electrics tomorrow as yet again its bleedin` raining again >:(
-
One things for sure...as you got the box from me, if its the box needing replacing then a replacement is yours no problem at all...got 4 here so you can come select one you like...although as you do indeed appear to be as unlucky as they come maybe I should choose one for you? lol :)
I seem to be more lucky than you...had the cambelt done on the new car today...turns out the old cambelt was stripped of teeth across 80% of its surface and holding on by the remaining 20% (PICS TO FOLLOW LOL) as a result of the tensioners being over tightened...running nicely now :)
-
thanks MC, perhaps as im unlucky & you are very lucky you could fit the box for me just to make sure;), anyhow PM sent & thanks for being understanding, now the tricky bit persuading my mrs to let me use her auto astra ;D
-
Bloody hell Tim, no point asking your lottery numbers, you aint gena win jack.
For those that somehow missed his very long thread Tim had gear box ecu failure as it turned out, only diagnosed after changing the box 3(?) times and all else besides after everyone said ecu failure was almost unheard of. It was the last thing to be changed, and bingo, away it went.
Now, when i hear electrical issues rearing their head again, i start getting the deja vu feeling. Box warning or not.
Surely you cant be lining up your second ecu Tim?
Should we start the sweep now?
-
hi CHRISGIXER, i think we are in agreement the gearbox is fubar, & for the record ive only put one g/box in :P, i think the g/box overheard me talking about the ecu chip thatll be here tomorrow so has chickened out ;D,think i`ll give the lottery a miss this week as the way my luck is going i`ll probably catch clap off the toilet seat next :D, ive got a gut feeling that when i meet up with you lot i`ll probably get a good kicking as you must be all fed up with my episodes, but believe me im nice really ;)
-
Agreed, Tim is a really nice bloke...just bloody unlucky! lol
-
at least nobody will ask me to help them if they are local ;D not that i mind helping as when i do other peoples cars i dont have a problem, perhaps if i put the miggy in the mrs name i might have more luck :y
-
were all learning Tim. Thats what its all about for me. Always interested to hear about these things, you never know when you might need it. If we meet ill buy you a drink if it suits, sounds like you need it. Alc. free only tho, dont want any DnD issues to add to the list now, do we? ;)
-
So....you had an issue where you could not get drive so changed the box and ecu.....you now have another issue where you cant get drive......maybe, just maybe the oirginal fault is back?
Or is it different?
-
So....you had an issue where you could not get drive so changed the box and ecu.....you now have another issue where you cant get drive......maybe, just maybe the oirginal fault is back?
Or is it different?
Should not answer for him, but hes off line and it may speed things up a bit. Iirc it would drive but not in auto, only by changing the gear manually. He bought it with the fault, the owner said he suspectued ecu as he had changed the box, another ar25, but no change in the fault.
He asked if anyone thought it was the ecu and all said no, it never happens. So he put an ar35 in, cars 3rd box, and still no change, checked all else, could not find anything0wrong. He even took the box ecu out altogether and it still drove the same. Selector leds still lit up. So, it is different, as he had drive, but no more. Hope Tim does not mind me butting in. Might be better to have a look through his thread its over 100 replys long.
Hth.
-
there are a few things you can check before you condemn the box, for instance your system voltage ie 14.4 volts at the battery,if it goes beyond 18v the gearbox will lose ALL drive.also check your electrical connections on the side of the box as one off them will b@gger it up also.at the moment you can rule out pump failure or tc failure simply because they would make "horrible" noises when they fail.filter falling off will make no difference to the oil pickup as the inlet is permamently submerged in oil anyway.for what its worth at the moment i am inclined to think you have an electrical issue.
I agree with your theory mate, and you are the expert!
Remember my old box though, the first one you took apart and how knackered it was inside? This went by exactly the same symptoms as the one described above
-
ah but did it drive perfectly the day before!.this box has been changed 3 times with no result,you have got to be looking elsewhere by now for this fault surely?
-
sassanach has my vote : Mark also makes a very good argument.
At least Mutantcav has steped up to the plate, good one.
Right Tim down to you prove us all wrong again
-
i think some reading lessons needed here :D, firstly the gearbox changes were an issue which ended up being the g/box ecu,[ive only changed 1 box] has been fine for a week with no faults & no warnings popping up but today i lost drive totally, this is a totally different fault to the last one, CHRISGIXER thanks for that you got it in pretty much spot on, MARKDTM the original fault when i got the car was g/box check lit, ended up being g/box ecu but could drive the car manually,this g/box that went today got me 25 yards or so then lost drive,no manual change either but no check message, all the atf has gone into the g/box main sump, as taking the plug out with engine running i would expect a dribble not a torrent of atf that half filled my groundbait bucket [5 litre bucket], so my theory is that it aint pumping & to what ive read & also been told the likely candidate is the thrust washer, i know its difficult to follow my story as so much has gone on & even i get confused sometimes ;D, so the best thing is to treat it as a one off fault rather than trying to combine the two episodes as the original fault was not the gearbox,,,,,blimey i need a stiff one,,,errrrr drink that is :y as for this car well im waiting for the ghost of jeremy beadle to pop up on the back seat cos this cant be real :o :o
-
forget the thrust washer in this instance as it has no effect on the pump.are you going to swap this box out or are you going to try and fix it?
-
I was thinking of posting up the original thread but like you TIM i was not sure if that would complicate the issue further. Youd need the patience of a saint to read through that lot.
-
i think some reading lessons needed here :D, firstly the gearbox changes were an issue which ended up being the g/box ecu,[ive only changed 1 box] has been fine for a week with no faults & no warnings popping up but today i lost drive totally, this is a totally different fault to the last one, CHRISGIXER thanks for that you got it in pretty much spot on, MARKDTM the original fault when i got the car was g/box check lit, ended up being g/box ecu but could drive the car manually,this g/box that went today got me 25 yards or so then lost drive,no manual change either but no check message, all the atf has gone into the g/box main sump, as taking the plug out with engine running i would expect a dribble not a torrent of atf that half filled my groundbait bucket [5 litre bucket], so my theory is that it aint pumping & to what ive read & also been told the likely candidate is the thrust washer, i know its difficult to follow my story as so much has gone on & even i get confused sometimes ;D, so the best thing is to treat it as a one off fault rather than trying to combine the two episodes as the original fault was not the gearbox,,,,,blimey i need a stiff one,,,errrrr drink that is :y as for this car well im waiting for the ghost of jeremy beadle to pop up on the back seat cos this cant be real :o :o
Tim,
In reality you have answered your own question, you drove it as a manual ?, as stated by many your box was OK. Without electrics you aint going anywhere, auto or manually, mechanically you would have known all about it. Now you can swapout the box the problem will not be resolved.
That is why I asked you about your old ecu, still dont think there is anything wrong with it. Back to the drawing board.
-
with answer to sassanach, i think its safer to change it to be honest as id have to take it out to repair it anyway, but it would be nice to find the problem for future reference, but whatever the problem is happened when everything was cold as it was o,k on the motorway yesterday, perhaps if i was to drop the front sump & i found bits floating about that would indicate the washer,if as you say the washer doesnt effect the circulation of fluid then it must be the pump, i would also like to eliminate the t/c but dont know enough about them but would have thought the pump if working would have kept the big sump at a normal level & the t/c would still have the atf in it knackered or not, & as the pump is mechanical i dont suppose it can be tested easily,,,,thanks for your info as you probably understand autos better than me.
-
JUSTME, I changed the ecu & the g/box warning went, this is after changing the ar25 for a ar35 with no joy, & yes you can drive a auto with no electrics as i had the ecu sitting indoors while i drove it manually around the block,& people were saying my ecu was o,k & it was the g/box that was the probable fault, oh & the ecu is knackered as the new one makes a single click when ignition is switched on, the old one clicked twice which indicates a relay shutting down as a protection,[hence the g/box warning] at the time i didnt realise this & assumed it was due to one relay activating another but looking inside & seeing one relay confirmed it.
-
the pump can be tested very easily in the car with a pressure gauge,which is why i asked you what you were planning to do, as i have one here which i am willing to send to you.ps you might possibly have a blocked filter which would also cause the problem you describe ie no flow = no pressure
-
hi SASSANACH, thanks for your offer of the pump, the only thing is that if it turns out not to be the pump ive then got to return the g/box to MUTANTCAV & i dont think he`d appreciate me taking it to bits then returning it, i still have an ar25 laying about if the pump would fit from that, perhaps if i talk to MC first & see what he says, the next thing of course is i dont have a pressure gauge to test the original one,also how do the pumps come out?, so just to recap on ths fault, if it was the thrust washer the atf would still circulate, which then leaves the pump as the likely problem, so do i first take off the small sump to check for bits from the washer before going further or take it the pump is u/s & go straight for that as it does sound logical & save me time, anyhow if somebody can tell me A] is the ar25 pump the same & B]how does it come out & C] while the bottom is off is there anything else to do or look for,, its a shame i didnt have my 2 spare sumps ready as im in the process of fitting them with drain plugs, oh well :(
-
Tim if the gearbox is fubarred then it doesnt matter if its in bits or not...it will be going down to the scrappy! If it needs fixing and you can easily fix it then great, do what you need to do to fix it :) If it cant be fixed, come get a replacement and bring back the old one, all in one or in bits and I will send the old one to meet its maker! lol
-
you misunderstand mate ,ive got a pressure gauge here i am willing to lend you.you can only test the pump in the car as its engine driven.if you are brave you can remove the test plug on the gearbox where a test gauge would fit and start the engine :o.the pressure there is approx 50 psi and you will find out very quickly(and messily)if the pump is functioning.ps is messily a real word?
-
you misunderstand mate ,ive got a pressure gauge here i am willing to lend you.you can only test the pump in the car as its engine driven.if you are brave you can remove the test plug on the gearbox where a test gauge would fit and start the engine :o.the pressure there is approx 50 psi and you will find out very quickly(and messily)if the pump is functioning.ps is messily a real word?
Where is the test plug on the box, Sas?
-
Was going to ask that too lol
-
you misunderstand mate ,ive got a pressure gauge here i am willing to lend you.you can only test the pump in the car as its engine driven.if you are brave you can remove the test plug on the gearbox where a test gauge would fit and start the engine :o.the pressure there is approx 50 psi and you will find out very quickly(and messily)if the pump is functioning.ps is messily a real word?
Checked TIS and at idle 50psi is spot on Sas :y
put it in Reverse apply brakes and rev motor (box stall speed) and it rises to 190psi :o now that's messy ;D
edit:
was trying to get pic out of TIS and on to photobucket and on to OOF but no luck getting out of TIS (i'm cr4p with pc's) :-[
-
you misunderstand mate ,ive got a pressure gauge here i am willing to lend you.you can only test the pump in the car as its engine driven.if you are brave you can remove the test plug on the gearbox where a test gauge would fit and start the engine :o.the pressure there is approx 50 psi and you will find out very quickly(and messily)if the pump is functioning.ps is messily a real word?
Checked TIS and at idle 50psi is spot on Sas :y
put it in Reverse apply brakes and rev motor (box stall speed) and it rises to 190psi :o now that's messy ;D
edit:
was trying to get pic out of TIS and on to photobucket and on to OOF but no luck getting out of TIS (i'm cr4p with pc's) :-[
Shift + Print screen and then paste into photo or similar drawing package, save as a jpg, upload to photo bucket and post the link.
-
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/Marks_DTM_Calib/autooilpressure.jpg)
-
so i take out plug no1 as its labelled, start up & wait for a gusher!, could jam a bit of pipe in it to a bottle or something, right id better try it as the mrs is getting annoyed & chopping firewood with her bare hands :o, i think i can just make out what plug it is or is it a bolt but i take it its on the nearside sort of above the front sump, if it dont gush its phuqed itake it. ;)
-
just a thought before i go under, if i was to have the engine running & slacken the plug rather than take it out would i get a hissing or some fluid weeping around the threads?, itll save the mess & too much loss of atf but will indicate pressure wouldnt it?
-
right!, i got what i think is the correct plug [11mm] started it up & sod all came out in the way of fluid, now does this tell me 100% that its the g/box pump?, then the next question is does an ar25 pump fit the ar35 box?, id like to know before stripping stuff apart all over the place as i dont want to waste my time, i suppose it would be best to clean the filter, will engine cleaner do it as ive got some of that, anyhow im awaiting a reply now so i can get on with it, many thanks to all for your help, its gonna be the biggest round ive ever bought ;D
-
drop the rear sump and check the filter first,make sure that it isn,t blocked.the ar25 and ar35 pumps are identical.
-
no need to get to heavy on the filter cleaning just see if it will pass liquid even water will do.
-
right the fliter is out, tried water in the pickup end & it just sat there not moving, wouldnt the atf stop water anyway? i dunno but as its out i`ll clean it,[engine cleaner o,k?] there was quite alot of sludgey stuff on the magnet is this normal?now the pump, is that the thing that looks like a metal tit in one corner!, im just as well to change it to play safe as i know the old box was pumping o,k, before i get on is there anything else i should be looking for as i dont want to keep taking it apart, i await my next instructions ;)
-
The filter should pass water and fluid, engine cleaner will shift the crudd (or the one in your old box might be better?).
In reality, the filter is little more than a strainer!
-
cheers MDTM how about the pump, is it that tit shaped thing in the corner, it would be silly not to change it as i dont know the state of mine especially as its been running dry.
-
no, the atf would not stop the water, could be you have the first blocked filter that im aware off,question is what blocked it.the thingy in the corner is a magnet to trap large particles.the pump sits at the front of the box behind the tc in the box, you have to remove the box and bell housing to see it.clean or nick the filter from your ar25 and try your pump test again.
-
No its not, the pump is inside the box....
-
So....we have water in the oil?
Engine loosing coolant?
-
Ow yes, the little tit you can see is the brake band servo
-
just as well i asked but hearing that youve never heard of a blocked filter is worrying, but as i say water dont seem to pass through it unless i have to leave it for any amount of time, with my luck its probably the pump but we`ll soon find out i suppose, & just to confirm that the pump or filter are the only things that would stop the flow of atf.
-
no no no DTM!, no water in g/box, just trying filter with water, you havent been down the pub have you ;D
-
I'd say clean the the filter out (apparently petrol works well) and sh 1 t or bust and see if (with some oil in..) it'll work.
Possibility - only a theory - the long run went and cleaned the box out when the oil was nice and hot. Sludge seperates from the oil, then sits in the bottom of the sump until the first cold start, where it promptly gets stopped by the filter as its now a lot thicker than it was..
Make sense to anyone else? I've only had half a beer so far, so brain is still (sort of) working..
-
just as well i asked but hearing that youve never heard of a blocked filter is worrying, but as i say water dont seem to pass through it unless i have to leave it for any amount of time, with my luck its probably the pump but we`ll soon find out i suppose, & just to confirm that the pump or filter are the only things that would stop the flow of atf.
Tim, no-one had ever heard of a dead ECU before...you seem to go where others had never thought of.. Perhaps change your name to Cpt. Kirk?
-
Clean the filter and give the magnet a clean/wipe...put it all back and run it to see if its nowpumping out...should be enough fluid in the system still so as not to damage the box for this quick simple test...if its pumping out then your sorted for now...if not then I guess its the pump which has failed...
As it came out of a car that was taxed/MOT'd and running fine uncluding gearbox, 1 week of use before the pump going would have to go down as seriously unlucky! lol
Of course, as said there could be a reason why the box has blocked and sludged up (could be as simple as it not having been serviced for a while before) but you may find if its just the filter blocked you need to clean it out a time or two more till all the system is cleaned out fully...
Fingers crossed anyway for you mate
-
No its not, the pump is inside the box....
I seem to recall when Mr Sassanach took mine apart it was just behind the bellhousing - the thrust washer sits on it? :-/
-
i was thinking the name isaac hunt would be more apt for me PHIL ;), Ive taken the sump off the old box thinking i could use it as my sump gasket fell to bits & guess what,,,,,no bleedin` gasket :o just some blue gunge & the bolts were so tight my 1/4 drive ratchet gave up, one had been stripped so i fought like a bugger to get it out, ive changed the filter over now but as ive got no gasket i`ll have to wait til monday, i bet vx dont keep them so itll be another couple of days, then buying new atf etc & so it goes on, & what is the betting it still wont work, if this car was a horse they would shoot the bloody thing :D & me like an idiot wont give up :(
-
if the pump is that dirty great lump thats held in place by the bellhousing bolts how the hell could that fail [oops i forgot its me thats why :'(] has it got the mainshaft on it?, oh & MC i know you wouldnt knowingly sell a duffer so dont feel guilty, just come round here with another box & fit it & we`ll say no more about it ;)
-
Not giving up doesn't make you an idiot, tim...
If it makes you feel any better, i managed to rescue a car (the first Reliant Scimitar SS1, chassis No.1, and also 1984 Motorshow Car) from a 10 year slumber. Engine siezed, etc. Unsiezed the engine, then it overheated (blocked rad). Got it on the road last month, now the petrol tank is rotten (fuel looks like proper scrumpy). Got that sorted - now some "£$%^&*((* has smashed the front bumper (then just driven off), destroying the immaculate, one-off Pearl paint job which has survived 24 years...
All this a day before its about to be shown off at a public exhibition to ex-Reliant employees who prepared it in 1984..
-
HEY PHILHOWARD we must be related, :D i was restoring a mk1 monza which was one of only 25 built in that spec, the friend whos garage i was using done a moonlite flit from his landlord, landlord sees car & scraps it, it was due to be painted that weekend so i know how you feel [& dont get me started on my corsair] :'(
-
JUSTME, I changed the ecu & the g/box warning went, this is after changing the ar25 for a ar35 with no joy, & yes you can drive a auto with no electrics as i had the ecu sitting indoors while i drove it manually around the block,& people were saying my ecu was o,k & it was the g/box that was the probable fault, oh & the ecu is knackered as the new one makes a single click when ignition is switched on, the old one clicked twice which indicates a relay shutting down as a protection,[hence the g/box warning] at the time i didnt realise this & assumed it was due to one relay activating another but looking inside & seeing one relay confirmed it.
Tim would you like to rethink that.???
that aint no gearstick you are using ? guess what is on the end of it ?
I'll give you a clue "it was full of oil" I could have sworn that it was a switch.
Again no electrics no gear change. it is the solonoids that change your gears they are electrically operated. Nothing else that I am aware of will do it for you. Anyone who knows diffrent please let me know.
OK Electrics in a mess solonoids & brakebands dont know where they are (funny things happen with bad electrics) Does the box get naffed, of course it does not. Oil gushing out of course it will it aint got nowhere else to go when you remove the plug. whats happened the bypass valve has opened, just as it was meant to all the time. built in safety wonderfull thing asint it, saved your box or as it.?
The replacement ecu was second hand wasnt it ?
Was the double click trying to tell you something ?
Driving without ecu : what is achieved it has done away with
Converter lockup cntrl
oil temp sensor
Main fluid pressure cntrl ?
crankshaft sensor
output speed sensor, used soley by the box
turbo diesel cntrl unit
to name just a few.
Your AT switch is connected to your ignition switch & starter motor, EGR solonoid, injection rectifier solonoid, filter heating assembly, & reversing lights. via D : F : E : H on the switch
there is a story there somewhere.
Would you asscribe the previous owner with enough gumption to alter the electrics in trying to solve the problem. ?
Gearbox changed : ECU changed : Problems persist. Time to move on
Oil gushing out nowt wrong with your oil pump. it is the only thing that will give you pressure, or the oil would just sit there so forget it. Others have mentioned enough to exclude the box, in my opinion for what it's worth.
-
o,k JUSTME, i always thought that the gearbox was mechanical as well as electrical & again i did drive it with no ecu, electrics are fine, when ecu was changed everything was o,k & not problem persist as you say, the atf gushing out was not under pressure but it was due to the system failing somewhere & torque converter not being replenished with atf due to an obvious fault in the gearbox, so if there is no atf being pumped then there is no atf to the t/c & consequently no drive to the transmission & a overfill scenerio of the g/box sump being the result, so working on the theory i have explained it all points to zero pressure due to blocked filter or g/box pump failure. & if the electrics were the issue i would get a warning message, this im not getting so its definately a mechanical issue.
-
move on to where? What do you suggest?
-
ive moved from boolsshot to logical i think that is a wise move innit chris! ;D
-
ive moved from boolsshot to logical i think that is a wise move innit chris! ;D
Yeah, and no small amount of patience. Blimey.
-
i thought i explained that the gearbox sump appeared overfull due to no circulation, perhaps a picture of me & my bait bucket half full of atf might help :D
-
You ca use Loctite 598 instead of the gasket and this is readily available from Halfords.
As for the box operation, the 4L30E is a mechancial box with electronic control and can run with the ECU removed!
-
thanks DTM, i cant do anything today anyway as weve got to visit the inlaws :(, i will try & get a gasket first tomorrow as im of the opinon that if it should be there i put it there,[from my mechanical training], also a trip to the £1 shop to get a couple of washing up bowls so if it still doesnt work after changing filter at least i can salvage the new atf ;), in your opinion & experience do you think the filter is/was the culprit?, have you ever known it ?, its just it happened so suddenly, oh & thanks for confirming the mechanical g/box operation thing, i already knew that as i might be mad [& going madder] but im certainly not stupid ;)
-
thanks DTM, i cant do anything today anyway as weve got to visit the inlaws :(, i will try & get a gasket first tomorrow as im of the opinon that if it should be there i put it there,[from my mechanical training], also a trip to the £1 shop to get a couple of washing up bowls so if it still doesnt work after changing filter at least i can salvage the new atf ;), in your opinion & experience do you think the filter is/was the culprit?, have you ever known it ?, its just it happened so suddenly, oh & thanks for confirming the mechanical g/box operation thing, i already knew that as i might be mad [& going madder] but im certainly not stupid ;)
Lol, well my design training tells me that gaskets are used to speed production assembly where as, more often than not, a sealent would do a better job :y
You will be doing well to find anybody with one in stock to ;)
-
hi DTM, i wasnt blowing my own trumpet or having a dig at you, its just to make the point that im not as green as i am cabbage looking [if you know what im on about ;)]
-
i thought i explained that the gearbox sump appeared overfull due to no circulation, perhaps a picture of me & my bait bucket half full of atf might help :D
Hi Tim I should have gone to specsavers
-
good idea ;),,,they do say it makes you go blind 8-) :o,,,,,,,ouch ;D
-
You ca use Loctite 598 instead of the gasket and this is readily available from Halfords.
As for the box operation, the 4L30E is a mechancial box with electronic control and can run with the ECU removed!
Surely Mark an hydraulic box with electronic control, every schematic i have seen on this box is hydraulic, the point about the ecu was not being made other than not recommended, the point about electrics was being made, the gear shift is an electric switch.
At least an oil pump failure is by far more common than the rather rare ecu failure.
Without question most problems experianced with auto boxes are engine related.
-
hi again, i think what we are saying is that the g/box is hydraulic that goes without saying, but the hydraulics are run by a mechanical means, hence why it will still drive without an ecu [limp mode],the gear selector is not only connected to the switch but is also connected to the g/box mechanicaly on the selector shaft, im now fine electrically but its now the hydraulics that are in question,& if you dont have hydraulics you dont have limp mode,[no drive] this is another totally different fault to the original one, please believe me ;)
-
You ca use Loctite 598 instead of the gasket and this is readily available from Halfords.
As for the box operation, the 4L30E is a mechancial box with electronic control and can run with the ECU removed!
Surely Mark an hydraulic box with electronic control, every schematic i have seen on this box is hydraulic, the point about the ecu was not being made other than not recommended, the point about electrics was being made, the gear shift is an electric switch.
At least an oil pump failure is by far more common than the rather rare ecu failure.
Without question most problems experianced with auto boxes are engine related.
Have a little read of this article.....
http://images.omegaowners.com/downloads/Autobox_Docs/4L30E_Article.pdf
Note the initial diag methods, the 4L30E will run without the ECU (and I have tried it) by using manual shifting!
-
& i thought my word would be good enough ;), anyhow back to the real problem, changed the filter,went to vx & tried to get g/box sump gasket, DTM you were correct they didnt have one, the guy said there was 2 different types of gasket for the large sump, i told him there was not, so after him saying he should know he invited me to look on his p,c, i looked & agreed that there was in fact 2 types on his screen, but i also pointed out he was looking at the engine diagram ;D & perhaps looking at the g/box one could be more beneficial, i think that upset him a bit [knob], anyhow ive used instant gasket stuff & filled it but it is still not pumping, so M,C if you are reading this im affraid another box is required :'(, if there is anyone who could help me fit it i would be grateful as im not getting any younger & it nearly killed me last time, just name your price & i`ll try & meet it, i`ll even cover fuel costs, supply tea [or coffee]& biccys or if you are inclined to drink beer during the day so be it, & if it was possible id even have your babies :o, thats how desperate i am :'(
-
i am obsolutely peed off with this, ive dropped the g/box after a fight with one nut & bolt, now i cant get the torque converter off the box!, it moves about 3/4" or so & then sticks solid, ive put a lever bar through the inspection hole to try & coax it from the back & managed to take a small chunk out of the bellhousing, of coarse i cant get the bellhousing off without the t/c coming off first, ive had to come away from the car before i smash it to bits, when i turn the t/c on the box it feels really horrible & jerky, when i fitted this old box not long ago the t/c was tight going on to the shaft & need tapping lightly [nylon hammer]to push it home but t/c was still smooth on the old box as i thought id check to make sure the t/c wasnt damaged by doing a comparison, anyhow thats it so far, it looks like i`ll be needing a t/c & a bellhousing but i dont think i can ask for bits on here yet so im well & truly stuffed.
-
easy tiger, time for a cup of tea. Maybe leave the sledge hammer in plane view of the car so it can see it, give the car something to think about.
Or maybe not, a bit to close to hand perhaps. ;)
-
lets put it this way CHRIS, my neighbours were shocked at the language flying about, & they are as rough as nuts, but one thing is for sure,,,this f***ing car is cursed, ive never known a t/c get stuck on a g/box,,,utter utter shite. in fact ive never had a car thats been hell bent in poxing me off.
-
lets put it this way CHRIS, my neighbours were shocked at the language flying about, & they are as rough as nuts, but one thing is for sure,,,this f***ing car is cursed, ive never known a t/c get stuck on a g/box,,,utter utter shite. in fact ive never had a car thats been hell bent in poxing me off.
Now now lets not get carried away, its got to be worth at least a box of matches.
Wish i could be of more help tbh.
-
is by saying it 3 times CHRIS goading me to torch it?, believe me at the mo i dont need goading :'(
-
is by saying it 3 times CHRIS goading me to torch it?, believe me at the mo i dont need goading :'(
DAW, i dont know why it does that, rather thing just crashed.
Sorry, now deleted.
-
Hi Tim, are you sure the shaft didnt somehow get bent if your struggling to get the TC off over it??? And you managed to break the solid metal bell housing??? LOL At least I just break parts I dont need lol
-
not solid its cast ;), its bloody stupid as it starts to slide then stops solid, my t/c was fine when i done the first change as it stayed with the ring gear & just slid off the box a treat, it seems that something is bent or become bent, but to be honest i dont give a monkies arse as long as i can get it sorted somehow. :(
-
Cut the metal shaft off?
-
what shaft where? cant get behind it chris,
-
here is the latest, i got the torque converter off in the end with a crowbar & lump hammer :y, found the reason it was stuck was due to the pump [i think] all busted & the bits that flew about mashed up the tail end of the t/c somehow, ive now emery papered the burrs on the t/c & managed to get it free of nasty gouges, it fits on the new box a treat :) the bit of bellhousing that broke off is now epoxy putty but its better than nothing, so its refit time tomorrow & fingers crossed my luck could be changing ;), mind you i went to MEGAVOX today, megaprice more like it, £385 for a box with t/c [wouldnt do me a t/c on its own] mind you there was a miggy in the carpark, but at those prices i would have thought he would have a new ferrari :o, oh well they got nowt from me thats the main thing :y, oh & by the way is there a reason why the pump gear shattered or is it just one of those things. :o
-
I'd be careful that the torque converter isn't full of crud from when the gearbox disintegrated. It could contaminate the new box. At least wash it out with plenty of paraffin before refitting. Also make sure it is held firmly by the bush in the gearbox and that the nose of the TC is not scored otherwise it will take out the bush and/or front seal.
Good luck with the reassembly. :y
Kevin
-
cheers KEVIN, the t/c shaft i done with coarse emery then polished off with fine so its as smooth as a babies bum, i did also give the t/c a quick rinse out with engine cleaner just in case the emery dust got passed the tissue i blocked it up with, but thanks anyway as thats the sort of thing that gets overlooked, its just i dont want to go through this again so ive double checked everything, the only thing that might let me down is my back cos its aching at the mo, i need a nice relaxing massage [preferably from some nice young oriental girls with nimble fingers :D]
-
Question, do you bolt the torque converter to the flex plate and then offer the gearbox up or did you fit the torque converter to the gearbox (fully), offer the gearbox up and then bolt the converter to the flex plate.
-
hi DTM, i put the t/c into the gearbox, bolt up bellhousing then put the 3 t/c bolts in, i trust thats correct as ive always done it that way, something about getting b/housing square with the engine block first.
-
hi DTM, i put the t/c into the gearbox, bolt up bellhousing then put the 3 t/c bolts in, i trust thats correct as ive always done it that way, something about getting b/housing square with the engine block first.
Excellent
Was the torque converter fully home as per the following:
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/Marks_DTM_Calib/TorqueConverter.jpg)
Where distance 2 is 31mm?
-
hi DTM, the first time i did the box the t/c did move out whilst sliding it under the car, i offered it up & found it wouldnt go [didnt force it] so i dropped it back down & tried pushing it back in, it was a little tight so i gently tapped it with a nylon hammer & it went in with very little effort, as for the measurements you quote, i cant see what choice you have as its going to sit where it wants to sit unless this is to determine if something is bent/distorted, dont forget mine is a diesel in case there is a difference in the measurements, i also know that the spigot/pin is tight on the ring gear as i had a job getting it off the first time due to rust, so it was cleaned & a dab of silicone grease & it was fine, anyhow i will check the 31mm measurement [even though i dont do metric ;)] & what do i do if it isnt 31mm :question, over to you ;)
-
hi DTM, the first time i did the box the t/c did move out whilst sliding it under the car, i offered it up & found it wouldnt go [didnt force it] so i dropped it back down & tried pushing it back in, it was a little tight so i gently tapped it with a nylon hammer & it went in with very little effort, as for the measurements you quote, i cant see what choice you have as its going to sit where it wants to sit unless this is to determine if something is bent/distorted, dont forget mine is a diesel in case there is a difference in the measurements, i also know that the spigot/pin is tight on the ring gear as i had a job getting it off the first time due to rust, so it was cleaned & a dab of silicone grease & it was fine, anyhow i will check the 31mm measurement [even though i dont do metric ;)] & what do i do if it isnt 31mm :question, over to you ;)
Lol, I dont do imperial but then we did go metric in the seventies and I am aware we still have a few imperial hangers on (plus the yanks) :y
Yes, the measurement is pretty constant and is not engine dependent as the auto boxes and torque converters are the same dimensions across all engines (ignoring the 5L40E used on the EU 2.5CDTi)
Reality is if its not this then the torque converter is possibly not fully home and it might well apply some extra load to the box causing a failure (hence the question).
I have seen one where the torque converter was bolted to the flex plate as a short cut, when the box was then fitted it crushed the torque converter (some what more extreme).
To be honest, just trying to work out how the oil pump would fail in such a catastrophic manner. :y
Ow yes, if you can, it would be worth blowing out the oil cooler pipes to the rad.....
-
hi DTM,its me the imperial old fart ;D, the metric system is just another import from the bleedin europeans, so what you use is yet another thing thats part of the EU takeover bid, [its being done gradually as so not to raise suspicion :(], anyhow back to the situation in hand, i would also like to know what caused this pump to fail but i can only put it down to "one of those things", my late father was a motor mechanic & he taught me how to work on cars in all aspects so im not one for cutting corners or bodging otherwise i would be less surprised myself, im just wondering if the g/box could have got damaged or stressed during removal [not having a go MC ;)], as you know its always the policy to remove an auto box with the t/c as there is no undue strain put on the t/c or box, anyhow im pleased to anounce that IM BACK ON THE ROAD ;D,next job is fitting my chip to get some more gee-gees out of the old bessy, oh just one other thing, the box came with the cross member but its got another big lump of rectangular rubber which sits directly underneath the prop doughnut but dont seem to do anything, any idea what it is?, anyhow its getting late for this old fart so i will put on my tartan slippers with the pom-poms on the front & drink my cocoa :D,,,,many thanks all & please dont run a "tim g/box sweepstake" as to how long this one lasts ;D
-
I always take the engine and gearbox out together...
Then drop (not literally) the box off then remove the Torque converter...easier to turn the torque converter round to get the 6 bolts into position to remove them...
Is there and easy way to rotate the gearbox/torque converter with the box still in place when its all out and sat on the driveway?
-
whoa whoa MC, i wasnt having a go honestly, i know you are careful but that g/box may have been off or something before you got it & if they had tried to cut corners it could have weakened it, then it getting taken out & me fitting it might have upset it a little more, how many times do you hear of getting stuff off of a good breakers only to find there is something wrong with it when fitted, ive had it happen once or twice, so the result is "its just one of those things", & dont forget my luck aint exactly brilliant is it :D, & i still think your`e wonderful :y
-
Wasnt taking it as having a go at all dont worry mate, just glad you have the car running again...hopefully more than a week this time lol
Although dont you have to take the box off again to replace the damaged torque converter and bell housing??? lol
-
....
Lol, I dont do imperial but then we did go metric in the seventies and I am aware we still have a few imperial hangers on (plus the yanks) :y
........
In this metric world we live in ....
What do you weigh? .........
How tall are you? .........
What's your fuel consumption? .........
What's the speed limit on our roads? .........
What measure do you buy your ale in? .........
What size DIA rims are on your car? .........
:y :y :y :y :y :y :y
-
How big is your c*ck lol
-
How big is your c*ck lol
There's always someone to lower the tone!! ;D ;D :y :y
-
a great comeback to the whippersnapper ATM AndyB :y & MC that was rather rude, but i was thinking along the lines of female funbags ;D, mind you the metric makes them sound bigger than they really are :'(
-
a great comeback to the whippersnapper ATM AndyB :y & MC that was rather rude, but i was thinking along the lines of female funbags ;D, mind you the metric makes them sound bigger than they really are :'(
Yep, 12 inchs sounds alot bigger than 300 mill... :o
-
If you told a girl you were 30 cm in the UK she would just look at you like you were strange!
-
ive never had any problem with girls, they would just approach me while i was sitting at the bar licking my eyebrows,,,,,,,, ;D
-
Some of the SI units come from British research, also Newton and Kelvin were British scientists.