Omega Owners Forum

Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: SmiffyMan on 16 November 2008, 21:41:56

Title: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: SmiffyMan on 16 November 2008, 21:41:56
Hi all, I have just replaced my wishbones today (Ugh)! to eliminate the juddering I was getting on braking at anything upwards of 60mph. On test drive, to my utter hoprror... the judder is still there. I have detected a small amount of play in the steering (Turn the wheel back and forth) which seems to tell summit ain't right here although it passed the MoT 2 months ago with no probs. Is there a steering box 'take-up' screw like I had in my old Merc 190 or is it something else. Brake discs are'nt warped so it ain't that!. The judder is quite severe and throws the steering wheel left to right. Not fun when you have passengers - (My 15 year old daughter -'sh*t Dad what the hell is that?....) Any help would  be greatly appreciated.
Cheers
Ian
Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: ngrainqey on 16 November 2008, 21:47:55
sounds a bit like one of your wheels is buckled  :-?
mine suffered a bit back till i swapped the front to the back on passenger side! mine was around 50+ though

if you find it's brake disc related and yours is 2.0 then i have a brand new set of 286 front discs just run in basically as i'm now scrapping the car :(
Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 16 November 2008, 21:49:07
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Hi all, I have just replaced my wishbones today (Ugh)! to eliminate the juddering I was getting on braking at anything upwards of 60mph. On test drive, to my utter hoprror... the judder is still there. I have detected a small amount of play in the steering (Turn the wheel back and forth) which seems to tell summit ain't right here although it passed the MoT 2 months ago with no probs. Is there a steering box 'take-up' screw like I had in my old Merc 190 or is it something else. Brake discs are'nt warped so it ain't that!. The judder is quite severe and throws the steering wheel left to right. Not fun when you have passengers - (My 15 year old daughter -'sh*t Dad what the hell is that?....) Any help would  be greatly appreciated.
Cheers
Ian

if I were you, I would double check the front brake discs..
Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 16 November 2008, 21:51:00
the disc surface may not show with naked eye but when you connect to the machine it will show the play..
Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: ngrainqey on 16 November 2008, 21:52:47
which engine is yours sniffyman lol?
Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: SmiffyMan on 16 November 2008, 21:55:20
On previous experience with brake disc warping, I get a back pressure through the brake peddle which decrease in frequency with lowering speed. There is no ervidence of this. I get no speed wobble up to 110 mph. The braking is straight and true when I do an emergency stop below 50. I really though the wishbones would be the prob as it had all the charecteristics of this. I had the 4 wheels balanced in October so I think the fitter (Who I know) would have told me if one was buckled. I'm stumped! I'm running an MV6 (2000 W) 3.0 Auto.
Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 16 November 2008, 21:58:46
if without brakes you have no problem at any speed the solution is brake discs..
Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: Lazydocker on 16 November 2008, 22:03:10
Get the wheels balanced again... Very common cause of wobble with no other evidence of problems. It's no unheard of for weights to move or fall off, especially if fitted by a "Can't fit fitter" ::) ::) :o :o
Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: scoopery on 16 November 2008, 22:03:51
I'm with cem. Stay with the brakes. The steering is just telling you something is wrong.
Check your caliper is free to move and that the free pad is not binding on corrosion on the caliper, causing braking force on only one side of the disc.
One problem I had once on old 5 series was caused by taking too long to change out a bad disc, which didnt cure the problem, because the hub and bearings had become damaged, although the bearing still felt good when you spun the wheel. Just when the load went back on the bearing it caused the vibration on braking.  
Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: Elite Pete on 16 November 2008, 22:04:21
Check the steering idler and track rod ends. There is an adjuster on top of the steering box, it has an allen key screw with a locking nut.
Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: Pete Elite on 16 November 2008, 22:11:27
Hi Ian,
         It does sound like a rotor problem but if your pretty confident it's not then have you tried the suspension top mounts for ware/movement or possibly a broken spring?
Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: SmiffyMan on 16 November 2008, 22:13:10
Cheers guys... Thats my Saturday sorted then...  This will make you laugh.. did my wishbones today.. first was ok, secend was a pig. But as I'd taken a coffe and bacon sandwhich break, I went back an put the wrong bolts in the inner mounting sections. They are slightly different in length. It took ages to get that bloody thing all sorted and then I had to dismantle it all and start again. Better ways to spend aSunday afternoon what!
Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: markey mark on 16 November 2008, 22:14:24
i would put money on warped discs !!  :y
Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: ngrainqey on 16 November 2008, 22:15:17
im glad in a way i dont have to worry about warped discs (can take them to work and skim them hehe!
Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: SmiffyMan on 16 November 2008, 22:22:08
Surely guys with warped discs.. when you brake you get the pedal pushing back at you at the frequency of the revolution (That sounds posh don't it!) I'm not getting any push-back though the peddle - you know.. it gets less frequent as you slow down. I had it on a Cavalier once and replacing the discs did solve the prob. But it was very evident through the peddle feed-back that it was the discs. These wheels are 17" with 235 tyres by the way.
Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: SmiffyMan on 16 November 2008, 22:23:05
Maybe I should stay below 50! Lol ;D
Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: markey mark on 16 November 2008, 22:24:02
might as well get a 2.0 litre then matey lol ;D
Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: Bandit127 on 16 November 2008, 22:24:44
Don't imagine for a moment that your tracking is still right after doing wishbones.

Mine was out 11.5mm after I changed mine - and it really felt like the front was falling apart. Loose was an understatement.

I strongly recommend you get that checked before going any further with your 'loose' steering. You might find that (like mine) fixes a lot of it.
Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: ngrainqey on 16 November 2008, 22:26:23
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might as well get a 2.0 litre then matey lol ;D

my 2.0 auto did 130 i'll have you know lol!
Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: feeutfo on 17 November 2008, 00:37:40
judder on the breaks is break related.
Judder when not on the breaks, aint brake related unless there is a binding issue. Jack the car and spin the wheel, you should hear no brake disc/pad noise and the wheel should spin freely. I take it the discs have not been off recently? If they have, centre them by doing up the wheel nuts in the discs without the wheel before doing up the disc bolt. Hth
Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: MikeDundee on 17 November 2008, 05:45:14
I had the same problem couple of years ago, would only get the juddering when breaking above 60+ :(,, ....these discs where new aftermarket ones and were not that old, funnily enough the mechanic that changed them at the time did warn me about warping, was kinda ironic :-X.............anyway got them changed asap and no more problems since :y  
Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: dbug on 17 November 2008, 08:45:54
Change front discs for gen Vx discs and pads - yours are probably aftermarket.  Cured mine!!
Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: beemerdevil on 18 November 2008, 11:32:18
when i had that prob, i swapped fronts to rears, had wheels balanced and aligned.............sorted  :y :y :y
Also, a cheap, sh**ty  (warped) tyre can cause it (have had that before) - i would check all these before changing discs etc....... HTH
Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: markey mark on 18 November 2008, 14:08:08
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might as well get a 2.0 litre then matey lol ;D

my 2.0 auto did 130 i'll have you know lol!

mabye so but it dont get there as quick as a 3.0/3.2 !! and my mv6 did 155 mph !!  8-) 8-)
Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: SmiffyMan on 18 November 2008, 18:19:25
Well there ya go!.... Took the front end down and checked the pads... spun them free-hand and sure enough, they were binding on hi-spots. This was both sides. SO.... having done my friggin wishbones for nothing, I will now set about doing my discs and pads. Both front tyres are Perellis and quite new so ruled them out. Must admit though... I did strangely enjoy doing my wishbones in a wierd sort of way.. at 45 years old it proved that I could still get under a car, spill coffee over my chest, lose a socket, rip  my knuckles open on an axle stand when the socket slips off :'(, get rust in my eye, hit my head on the steering linkage, get grease in the links of my new watch (I know... she told me to take it off!), and.. keep my cool when my nosey anorak neighbour pops his head under the car and says 'got a problem then?' F*** O**!!!
Thanks for the tips guys.
Ian ;)
Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: cem_devecioglu on 18 November 2008, 20:54:49
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Well there ya go!.... Took the front end down and checked the pads... spun them free-hand and sure enough, they were binding on hi-spots. This was both sides. SO.... having done my friggin wishbones for nothing, I will now set about doing my discs and pads. Both front tyres are Perellis and quite new so ruled them out. Must admit though... I did strangely enjoy doing my wishbones in a wierd sort of way.. at 45 years old it proved that I could still get under a car, spill coffee over my chest, lose a socket, rip  my knuckles open on an axle stand when the socket slips off :'(, get rust in my eye, hit my head on the steering linkage, get grease in the links of my new watch (I know... she told me to take it off!), and.. keep my cool when my nosey anorak neighbour pops his head under the car and says 'got a problem then?' F*** O**!!!
Thanks for the tips guys.
Ian ;)

if you enjoy your time and feel better ,no problem :y
Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: ngrainqey on 18 November 2008, 21:18:39
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might as well get a 2.0 litre then matey lol ;D

my 2.0 auto did 130 i'll have you know lol!

mabye so but it dont get there as quick as a 3.0/3.2 !! and my mv6 did 155 mph !!  8-) 8-)

lol but my 134 bhp managed 130..your 207? managed 155 :P

Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: feeutfo on 19 November 2008, 00:24:16
i doubt your wishbones where a waist of time. Of 15 omegas attending the wheels in motion knowledge day, 13 cars got on the ramp to be checked, all except 2 of those(1 had new bones fitted just prior) had shot bushes and one of the 2 that didnt the owner knew his where shot as well, mine!
 
My theory is they go with age mostly. Cant see vx having a load of claims within 3 years of sale, and its not unusual to get reps doing over a 100k in that time so dont think its miles that kill then. I have seen or read of cars with as little as 35k iirc, on the clock with shot bushes. So they probably needed doing anyway. Did you torque the bolts with wheels loaded, car on the ground and all that?

Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: SmiffyMan on 19 November 2008, 08:11:24
Hi,
I have not torqued the bolts yet - I don't know what the settings need to be. Any clues? Can't find anything on the forum that gives the settings. Car is not being used at the moment so no problem to wait.
Thanks
Ian
Title: Re: Serious Judder on Braking at 60+
Post by: markey mark on 19 November 2008, 09:48:09
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might as well get a 2.0 litre then matey lol ;D

my 2.0 auto did 130 i'll have you know lol!

mabye so but it dont get there as quick as a 3.0/3.2 !! and my mv6 did 155 mph !!  8-) 8-)

lol but my 134 bhp managed 130..your 207? managed 155 :P


but mine didnt take 2 miles to get there lol  :D