Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: chris mac on 01 January 2009, 20:10:40
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Dangerous Omega! Hi I have just experienced a dangerous full throttle incident on my 03 2.2DTI and could do with some advice please? The car suddenly took off like a banshee in 4th gear (no throttle applied)! switching off the car on the key had no effect. I had to stall the car to get it to stop which frghtened the hell out of me.Luckily I had a clear road & no roundabout ahead. I stoppd in a cloud of grey smoke, the engine re started on the key but ran away again straight through the rev limiter again only stopping with a forced stall
Can anyone assist with potential causes? being drive by wire I thought this would be impossible?
thanks Chris Mac
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new pants needed by the sounds of it :o
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Sounds to me like the throttle has stuck fully open. Throttle body might need a clean ??? First thing I'd do is to whip it off and have a look.
If its DBW I suppose its possible an electrical/electronic fault is sending a "open fully" signal, but I'd check the physical prossibility first as thats easier than electronics .. to me anyway !!!
If its NOT DBW then its mechanical and should be checkable by removing the input to the throttle body and seeing if the throttle closes ??
This is all based on logic and NOT any knowledge of a TD lump .. I know nowt about them at all .... so could be totaly wrong !!
edited for smelling pistakes
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Didn't even know if the 2.2 D's actually have a throttle at all?
Hope its not the "Discovery self destruct" problem - oil mist through the breathers becomes enough for the engine to "self-run" on its own fumes..hence why turning off the key made no difference (which should shut off the diesel supply electronically)..
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How many miles? What is service history like - I hope not those ridiculous 20k service intevals
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sounds like engine wear and when hot starts to burn its own engine oil ,turning off ign will have no effect,
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sounds to me ike the seals have gone in the turbo and she is running on her own oil, nasty situation that!!! you were very lucky to stop it as normaly they rev themselves todeath till they run out of oil, ::)
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That's the one...for some reason, a lot of LandRover Discoverys are affected...
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sounds to me ike the seals have gone in the turbo and she is running on her own oil, nasty situation that!!! you were very lucky to stop it as normaly they rev themselves todeath till they run out of oil, ::)
Had that on a large generator set on board ship many moons ago.... Once we realised what was happening and despite trying all solutions including fuel shutoff and throwing plastic sheeting over the turbo intake, we got to break out the way whilst it self destructed....
What we in that trade called a 'brush and shovel' repair.....
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sounds to me ike the seals have gone in the turbo and she is running on her own oil, nasty situation that!!! you were very lucky to stop it as normaly they rev themselves todeath till they run out of oil, ::)
Had that on a large generator set on board ship many moons ago.... Once we realised what was happening and despite trying all solutions including fuel shutoff and throwing plastic sheeting over the turbo intake, we got to break out the way whilst it self destructed....
What we in that trade called a 'brush and shovel' repair.....
lol know what you mean Brucie, seen a truck engine do it the driver tried to throw his high vis jacket over the air intake to stop it and the engine sucked it in and eat it and carried on running!!!!!! then we ran!!!! :y
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Get your self a CO2 extinguisher that will stop the beast. 8-)
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Get your self a CO2 extinguisher that will stop the beast. 8-)
:y Good call....
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Get your self a CO2 extinguisher that will stop the beast. 8-)
But how do you squirt it into the intake in a hurry! I'd either brake to a halt (as Chris did), or run...
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Get your self a CO2 extinguisher that will stop the beast. 8-)
But how do you squirt it into the intake in a hurry! I'd either brake to a halt (as Chris did), or run...
;D ;D ;D ;D
I was still thinking of the large stationary Ruston fekker, of a type that used to drive main line trains! ;D
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Ruston fekker
And the same to you!
What the heck is one of those? Google don't help me..
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Ruston fekker
And the same to you!
What the heck is one of those? Google don't help me..
Not quite the same, but close enough. We used them as Alternator sets whilst other applications had them as main propulsion sets ( as the image link) or electrohydraulic propulsion in main line train engines. No doubt Martin Imber or Lizzie Zoom will elucidate.... ;)
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/river_class/images/river_4s.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/river_class/&usg=__SZB4xR4aUn43ZL-jkq36BtoTEwM=&h=100&w=150&sz=5&hl=en&start=96&tbnid=hcAXdGaKHwXqOM:&tbnh=64&tbnw=96&prev=/images%3Fq%3Druston%2Bmarine%2Bgenerator%26start%3D90%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D18%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN
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I am going with the turbo having blown its oil seal & feeding the engine theory! I will disconnect the inlet hose to the engine & check for heavy oil deposits, then possibly try to start it with the turbo disconnected to see if it sprays misty oil everywhere / revs through the roof? Wish me luck! - anyone got a spare turbo?
thanks for your help Mac
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By the way I used to make those Ruston tinkers (diesels) when I was an apprentice before they went bust! Mac
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I am going with the turbo having blown its oil seal & feeding the engine theory! I will disconnect the inlet hose to the engine & check for heavy oil deposits, then possibly try to start it with the turbo disconnected to see if it sprays misty oil everywhere / revs through the roof? Wish me luck! - anyone got a spare turbo?
thanks for your help Mac
First off, no experience of these Omega type diesels.
Any way to short the air supply and bypass the turbo and fool it into running? Might give room for thought, given the radical path this thread has taken....
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Ruston fekker
And the same to you!
What the heck is one of those? Google don't help me..
Not quite the same, but close enough. We used them as Alternator sets whilst other applications had them as main propulsion sets ( as the image link) or electrohydraulic propulsion in main line train engines. No doubt Martin Imber or Lizzie Zoom will elucidate.... ;)
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/river_class/images/river_4s.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/river_class/&usg=__SZB4xR4aUn43ZL-jkq36BtoTEwM=&h=100&w=150&sz=5&hl=en&start=96&tbnid=hcAXdGaKHwXqOM:&tbnh=64&tbnw=96&prev=/images%3Fq%3Druston%2Bmarine%2Bgenerator%26start%3D90%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D18%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN
That is a modern descendant of the 1930's English Electric 10" bore 12" stroke lump
Started as a straight 6 250bhp and a late V20 with 280mm bore over 9000bhp
Most powerful per cylinder in UK rail traction was a 2400bhp straight 6 downrated to 1800bhp and 280mm bore (6RK280 I think)
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By the way I used to make those Ruston tinkers (diesels) when I was an apprentice before they went bust! Mac
Which lumps?
EE?
Paxman?
Napier?
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well, if ever i needed a reason not to buy a diesel, which i dont, it would be...?
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the Ruston paxman made by GEC in Newton - Le - Willows Merseyside
Anyway back to the problem in hand, I have stripped the air side of the turbo & its full of oil so I think the theory about the engine over reving through buring the engine oil is correct? the sump has not run dry & I have run the car without the turbo air feed connected to the inlet manifold oil light all else OK! I am not convinced the turbo is at fault as there is a lot of oil up stream of the turbo possibly from the crank case ventilator? Anyone have any thoughts? Any volunteer test pilots? the wife has already refused & I cant find a sane reason to couple up the turbo & try again!
thanks for your support chris Mac
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......
Any volunteer test pilots? the wife has already refused & I cant find a sane reason to couple up the turbo & try again!
thanks for your support chris Mac
I can lend you a pair of axle stands! ;D ;D ;D
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turbo oil seal,being a dt it will run on its own oil untill the sump is empty then the ends will give up!!
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the Ruston paxman made by GEC in Newton - Le - Willows Merseyside
Ah Valenta & VP185
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it may be turbo oil seals ,but you need to carry out a compression test to elimate piston rings ect , and fully check the breather system for blockages ricky
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deffo turbo get it all the time on mercs, if you do try other options be prepared to stall stop it very quick or you will shoot the bottom end
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If the oil is well upstream of the turbo it points to a breather or something, as you say. Can you remove the intake ducting and ascertain where the oil was entering? i.e where do the oil traces start?
Might be worth disconnecting the breathers and giving it a run. See if you get excessive blowby gases from the open breathers.
Kevin
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hi.have you changed or topped up the oil,if over filled can cause the problem you had(hands up on my part done this with a renault diesel a few years ago). :y
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Check that the engine oil has not been diluted with diesel - drip a drop on to your finger and smell it!
Also check that the level has not been over-filled, as well as ensuring the breathers are clean. An obstruction here could let the turbo suck oil past it's seals from the oil supply inlet.
Air cleaner/intake clear too? Have a shifty!
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How would you stall the car if it was an auto? eek to think I nearly bought a dti omega a few months back lol.
would your insurance payout if the worst happened and you had to stop the car by putting it into a wall or something?
scary... :'(
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This happened to a mate of mine in a Peugeot a few years back. Driving along the M3 he noticed that he wasn't having to touch the accelerator any more, and couldn't see anything in his rear view miror.
In hindsight, the decision to exit via a slip road was probably not his finest. Pressed the clutch and the engine revved to kingdom come. Turned the key and it kept going. Tried to stall it and it burnt out the clutch and knackered the gearbox. He was left watching it kill itself from a safe distance. Fortunately it was a company car, because everything under the bonnet was breaked and the repair bill was huge.
Kevin
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once had it happen with a dieseltractor , i jumped off and off it went into the distance, through fields, ditches , hedges, before blowing up , bit scarey
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Thanks for your help guys I will be working on it Sunday - compression test then run without turbo feed connected to the inlet manifold. (if it runs)! If it runs I will follow up the crakcase vent (look for excess oil mist), does anyone know how easy it is to remove the cam cover - it does not look straightforward? I have not topped up the oil as it does not use oil normaly however I do park it on a very steep (40deg) drive each night
Mac
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This happened to a mate of mine in a Peugeot a few years back. Driving along the M3 he noticed that he wasn't having to touch the accelerator any more, and couldn't see anything in his rear view miror.
In hindsight, the decision to exit via a slip road was probably not his finest. Pressed the clutch and the engine revved to kingdom come. Turned the key and it kept going. Tried to stall it and it burnt out the clutch and knackered the gearbox. He was left watching it kill itself from a safe distance. Fortunately it was a company car, because everything under the bonnet was breaked and the repair bill was huge.
Kevin
Happened to my old boss in a merc recovery truck, he was on a motorway somewhere, and noticed that his speed kept going up! He looked in his mirror and couldnt see a thing! He said that he saw a sign saying about a service station a mile or so ahead... so he made it there, and had to really use the brakes to bring it to a halt. He stalled the engine while braking, and left it 20 mins to cool down (The head gasket had gone on it, and it used to drink water! and thus it overheated, and ran on its own oil somehow)
It was fine after it cooled down (and the water level topped up!), they used it for a year or so afterwards! (just used it for short recoverys though, and just kept topping up the coolant!) :P
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Thanks for your help guys I will be working on it Sunday - compression test then run without turbo feed connected to the inlet manifold. (if it runs)! If it runs I will follow up the crakcase vent (look for excess oil mist), does anyone know how easy it is to remove the cam cover - it does not look straightforward? I have not topped up the oil as it does not use oil normaly however I do park it on a very steep (40deg) drive each night
Mac
I would check the intercooler too, as that could be full of oil if its the turbo seals thats given up!
Had a 2.0dti vectra (injection pump was shot) but I tried getting it running on easy start by spraying in the turbo intake... it didnt start, however it filled the intercooler with easy start :-X
As you may have guessed, later on that day I got a bit more life out of it than I thought! Remember looking at the rev counter and it been way up in the red (was only there for about a second or so) but I was waiting for a bang! ::)
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Thanks for your help guys I will be working on it Sunday - compression test then run without turbo feed connected to the inlet manifold. (if it runs)!
Don't forget you'll need a compression tester suitable for a diesel - a petrol one will be blown to smitherines on the first try..
Definately wash the intercooler out, but if you use petrol to do it, wait a long time before putting it back in. It'll do the same thing again, but on petrol fumes.. Did that years ago on a Citroen BX with a washable filter - guess what we washed it out with..?