Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: GastronomicKleptomaniac on 23 January 2009, 22:09:36
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---WARNING - rambling long post, there's a summary of the main points at the bottom ---
Firstly, I read through all 22 pages of this thread - http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1153140766/315 - fantastic result, and really shows the OOF at it's best...
Now, the other week I was out in the hills of Northumberland, and the EML flashed either two or three times, then came on permanently - no untoward sounds or judders, until I came to a junction and it had a slightly rough idle.
Came to the next hill, the car lost power and refused to pull uphill. Dived into the next layby (luckily twas at the top of the hill), and turned it straight off. Gave it a couple of seconds, turned it back on, EML extinguished as normal, and the car idled fine and worked perfectly for the rest of the day.
It's been fine, used it a couple of times a week, long and short journeys, fast back roads and A-roads, city driving, nothing unusual from the engine - apart from a hot smell that's been haunting the car for a while, I cleaned some seaweed from around the exhausts the other day and the smell seemed to be... less bad. Whether it was that (I didn't get it all off), or not, I'm not sure.
Anyway, driving up the A19 at about 70mph (honestly, I was, for once...), about fifteen minutes into my journey, just cruising along as I was the last time... EML flashed a couple of times and came on again.
I was about 1200yds from the services, so pulled in, the idle was a lot rougher, knocked it off, gave it a second and tried turning it on again...
It took a good few seconds to fire, usually it fires first time, and then the idle was horrificly lumpy, the whole car shook - turned it straight off and called the RAC.
Absolute top bloke came out, really friendly, I told him all of the above. He did the usual, check oil, coolant, then we fired it up again - same rough idle, and an awful rattling coming from the passenger side bank of cylinders (I'd say it was that side, we were 15ft from the A19 with passing traffic...). Turned it off, he loosened the belt cover and pulled it back, it seemed complete, obviously no way of seeing if it was lined up.
We fired it up once more and it made the same cacophony, ran for about 20 seconds, then stalled with the EML flashing. For the sake of completeness, we scanned the codes with the engine off, it was showing "misfire cylinder 1" "misfire cylinder 4" and "misfire: random cylinders" - or words to that effect. He says he thinks it's jumped a tooth, if not more... based on my knowledge I'm inclined to agree.
Hitched out the spec lift, put the Omega on backwards, and towed it the 15 miles home, me and OH in his van. Pushed it into the garage, where it's now sat looking a bit sorry for itself...
Firstly, the mechanical sound - I can try to take a video, but think this will be risking complete destruction of the engine? Worth the risk to help diagnose?
With this sound, I'm leaning towards a mechanical rather than electrical problem... unless there's a known sensor that could cause the problems?
Cambelt and kit were done about 3-4k ago, at a garage - am I better off ringing him and getting him to have a look and listen, and if it's down to the belt or workmanship, it's up to him to repair? Will this be affected if I start dismantling the front of the engine?
I'm a reasonably competent mechanic, done a fair few timing belts and head gaskets, but only on three- and four-bangers, never a Vee or Flat engine... If I follow the guides, maybe get the DVD and Haynes Book of Lies, is it within my range to take it to bits for a look? If so, I assume its a "simple" case of turning the engine round to line up one timing mark, and see if the rest correspond?
Finally, from reading Merv's topic, it seems the best way if it has slipped, is to try a new belt and see if it works? If not, how much work am I looking at? If the engine's completely FUBAR, insurance depending, I might end up fitting a rebuilt 3.2...
---SUMMARY---
- Car lost power and idled roughly about two weeks ago EML flashed two or three times before illuminating
- When this happened, turning it off and back on again cured it, it's been fine since.
Now-
- Cruising at 70mph, EML flashed two or three times before illuminating, same as last time - no idea if it lost power, as was a downhill cruise to the services. Idled roughly, so turned it off.
- Turned it back on, car still idled roughly, and worse than last time
- Awful knocking sound coming I believe from passenger side bank of cylinders
- Stalls after 20ish seconds of bad idle, with EML flashing
- RAC diagnosed valve timing fault
- Code scan shows "no.1 cylinder misfire", "no. 4 cylinder misfire", "misfire - random cylinders" (and the known precat problem)
- Cambelt replaced 3-4k ago, still guaranteed parts and labour
- Car is '02 2.6 MV6 manual
- Car had a hot smell from it over the past few months, possibly related
- Car takes longer than it should to warm up, diagnosed as sticking thermostat.
- Rocker gaskets were replaced at same garage, approx 1.5k miles ago
I know I've not been on much, all my login details for most forums and email accounts were on my other, knackered PC, so I've done a 50 mile round trip to bro-in-law to retrieve them using his PC skills... :y
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I would say it sounds like a crank sensor or perhaps an ignition related misfire. If it was a cam belt problem it would not hve "recovered" after running rough IMHO.
You need to read the codes from the engine ECU - use the "pedal trick" and let us know what it reports.
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1189022687
Kevin
EDIT: Sorry, shouldn't have skim read. The codes confirm an ignition related misfire so check if the cam covers are sealed OK. Have a look for oil in the plug wells and check the condition of the plugs and the rubber boots on the coil packs.
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I would say it sounds like a crank sensor or perhaps an ignition related misfire. If it was a cam belt problem it would not hve "recovered" after running rough IMHO.
That's a good point... I like your thinking, largely due to the reeuced cost implication... :y
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As a point of reference what engine do you have and what is the odometer reading?
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Hi,
As your scan doesn't seem to show any crankshaft sensor fault, I would start with a visual checking of the Coil Per Plug units, oil in plug wells, water in plug wells etc before any slipped cambelt theories.
When you get ignition missfires, it tends to throw up all manner of fault codes to lead you astray.
Your fault is similar to a problem I had long time back. Found to be faulty CPP unit on 1-3-5 cyl bank.
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As a point of reference what engine do you have and what is the odometer reading?
Its 2.6 mate... drive by wire, so pedal trick for that engine.
As Kevin says, cant have an intermitent cam belt failure/slippage..?... Can you?
Pete,
Belt schedule, every 40k miles or 4 years, is it possible the belt/tensioner is overdue?
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As a point of reference what engine do you have and what is the odometer reading?
Its 2.6 mate... drive by wire, so pedal trick for that engine.
As Kevin says, cant have an intermitent cam belt failure/slippage..?... Can you?
Pete,
Belt schedule, every 40k miles or 4 years, is it possible the belt/tensioner is overdue?
belt was done 3-4k ago chris ! more likely to be oil in plug wells or coil pack failing :y
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As a point of reference what engine do you have and what is the odometer reading?
Its 2.6 mate... drive by wire, so pedal trick for that engine.
As Kevin says, cant have an intermitent cam belt failure/slippage..?... Can you?
Pete,
Belt schedule, every 40k miles or 4 years, is it possible the belt/tensioner is overdue?
belt was done 3-4k ago chris ! more likely to be oil in plug wells or coil pack failing :y
Oh yeah, just seen that, right above where it says its a 2.6... ;D ;D ;D ;D
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seaweed from exhaust
Blocked backbox?
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Would appear to be electrical as it's cleared itself then happened again.
First thought is coil pack failure on the passenger side bank. The clue is the racket's coming from just one side, despite what the fault codes say.
Sounds like that side's coil pack is firing randomly or intermittently detonating unburnt fuel already in the cylinders and exhaust manifold.
Anything to do with timing belt is normally fatal for these engines - very unlikely it would start at all if the belt had slipped.
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Plugs definately - taken out the coil pack as well by the sound of it
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Update - the RAC man seems to have cleared the codes, since it's showing none stored (constant flashing, yes?). Tried starting it briefly, it did start but made even worse sounds than last time, knocked it off, seems it didn't have enough time to register any codes.
As a point of reference ... what is the odometer reading?
Somewhere in the region of 95k.
Hi,
As your scan doesn't seem to show any crankshaft sensor fault, I would start with a visual checking of the Coil Per Plug units, oil in plug wells, water in plug wells etc before any slipped cambelt theories.
I'll have a look at this tomorrow, then, before I start swearing at the cambelt... :y
seaweed from exhaust
Blocked backbox?
Could well be worth investigating, I cleaned mainly around the gearbox mounts and suspension joints, I didn't go that far back... I'll have a look at that, too.
Really appreciate the help, guys, it's keeping the blood pressure down... I'll start with the easy bits, see what state the backbox is in, I had a repair done to the joint about six months back, wondering if something's split again...
Then I'll start looking at the top of the engine and taking pictures as I go... hopefully it will be something simple. Now to find a how-to to help...
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What sort of noises is it making?
Kevin
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What sort of noises is it making?
Kevin
Honestly, I can't bear to start the engine now, last time I did, it sounded like Keith Moon trapped in a dustbin factory... but I'm a lot more sensitive to sounds from my own car. If it helps, I could take a quick video of it starting and post it on Photobucket? I'm already of the opinion, that if the engine's destroyed, so be it, and no harm in looking further...
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Have you popped out the coil packs and checked the plugs yet?
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Have you popped out the coil packs and checked the plugs yet?
Nah, I've had too much on today, I'm going to get everything set up that I need now (tols are in disarray at the moment, having opened the case upside down), and start the job in daylight tomorrow. With buckets of tea.
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What sort of noises is it making?
Kevin
Honestly, I can't bear to start the engine now, last time I did, it sounded like Keith Moon trapped in a dustbin factory... but I'm a lot more sensitive to sounds from my own car. If it helps, I could take a quick video of it starting and post it on Photobucket? I'm already of the opinion, that if the engine's destroyed, so be it, and no harm in looking further...
That won't be a simple ignition problem. :( I might be inclined to have a peep under the cam belt cover before starting it again to make sure it's timed up accurately and everything is as it should be.
...(tols are in disarray at the moment, having opened the case upside down)...
I hate it when that happens. >:(
Kevin
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What sort of noises is it making?
Kevin
Honestly, I can't bear to start the engine now, last time I did, it sounded like Keith Moon trapped in a dustbin factory... but I'm a lot more sensitive to sounds from my own car. If it helps, I could take a quick video of it starting and post it on Photobucket? I'm already of the opinion, that if the engine's destroyed, so be it, and no harm in looking further...
That won't be a simple ignition problem. :( I might be inclined to have a peep under the cam belt cover before starting it again to make sure it's timed up accurately and everything is as it should be.
...(tols are in disarray at the moment, having opened the case upside down)...
I hate it when that happens. >:(
Kevin
Shall I take a quick video and risk possible engine destruction?
And aye, it's even worse when it wasn't me who did it...
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I would check the cam timing and belt / idlers before running it again, TBH.
If it were an ignition issue the worst that could be happening is it missing on a couple of cylinders - so it would run lumpily but not excessively noisily.
Kevin
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I had a plug go and it sounded horrid.
A previous car lost two and sounded absolutely dreadful
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OK, I'm into the timing belt area now. Looking at the check marks already tippex'd on the pulleys, the cams seem to line up in the right place... I'm a little confused as to all the notches though?
I'm now looking at the bottom of the engine, crank pulley, and the notch is sitting in line with a "pointer"... see below for my slightly simplistic explanation.
The pulley immediately to the right of the water pump, the body behind it is cast into a pointer, from memory this means the crank is in the right place, if the top notches line up? I'll take a pic and upload it when I take a lunch break, in about 5 minutes...
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OK, I'm into the timing belt area now. Looking at the check marks already tippex'd on the pulleys, the cams seem to line up in the right place... I'm a little confused as to all the notches though?
I'm now looking at the bottom of the engine, crank pulley, and the notch is sitting in line with a "pointer"... see below for my slightly simplistic explanation.
The pulley immediately to the right of the water pump, the body behind it is cast into a pointer, from memory this means the crank is in the right place, if the top notches line up? I'll take a pic and upload it when I take a lunch break, in about 5 minutes...
That doesn't sound good, looks like whoever did the cambelt cange hasn't used the proper kit to do it :(
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OK, I'm into the timing belt area now. Looking at the check marks already tippex'd on the pulleys, the cams seem to line up in the right place... I'm a little confused as to all the notches though?
I'm now looking at the bottom of the engine, crank pulley, and the notch is sitting in line with a "pointer"... see below for my slightly simplistic explanation.
That doesn't sound good, looks like whoever did the cambelt cange hasn't used the proper kit to do it :(
Aye, unless he's used it simply as a quick-check guide.
Having got to the stage I'm at now, I'd actually be confident to do the belt on a V6 in future, obviously borrowing the locking kit...
Any idea on whether the pointer lining up with the notch is correct for a quick check, as my vague memory seems to think?
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There's mark on the crank pulley that should line up with a mark on the bottom of the housing to give you TDC on cylinder 1. Then all the cam markings should line up with their respective markings. Not there are 2 marks on each pulley and you need to select the correct one based on its position. They are numbered 1 to 4 from left to right.
Kevin
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1, 2, 3 and 4 all line up pretty much perfectly. Where the car is at the moment, I can't get my head down to look at the bottom of the crank pulley - that'll be tomorrow before work...
At the moment, I'm looking at the pulley and seeing, with the cams in position as stated, a notch pointing at about, ooh, 2-3'o'clock... is there only one mark on the crank pulley?
Cheers again, really is appreciated :y
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1, 2, 3 and 4 all line up pretty much perfectly. Where the car is at the moment, I can't get my head down to look at the bottom of the crank pulley - that'll be tomorrow before work...
At the moment, I'm looking at the pulley and seeing, with the cams in position as stated, a notch pointing at about, ooh, 2-3'o'clock... is there only one mark on the crank pulley?
Cheers again, really is appreciated :y
You'll need a mirror to see the mark on the crank
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At TDC:
Crank sprocket has a line or arrow mark which should be pointing straight down and in-line with a notch in the alloy housing beneath the crank sprocket.
Cam sprockets...marks should line up with notch in cambelt back cover. Sprockets are numbered 1-4 from left to right, so sprocket 1 should have notch 1 lining up. Sprocket 2 has notch 2 lining up etc.
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First of all, this is the mark I was looking at, and the notch - couldn't get in to take any wider angle shots, but this is the bottom pulley, the mark is at approx 2'o'clock.
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f17/TrafficAnswers/PeteG/SSL22450.jpg)
And this is the view in the mirror of the bottom half of the crank pulley, with the mirror placed at the bottom of the engine. (I apologise for it being upside down) I can't see any marks, but can see a keyway in the centre of the pulley?
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f17/TrafficAnswers/PeteG/SSL22447.jpg)
I know, I'm not the most talented photographer... and yes, that is indeed my OH's make-up mirror...
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Ah, now I see what you are doing.
The crank timing marks are on the toothed belt sprocket, so take the crank aux belt pulley off and you should see them.
As said before, TDC is with timing mark pointing down and lining up with notch in alloy.
Note...these marks are only for indication and to help positioning a new belt. To time properly you need the crank locking tool and the cam sprocket timing gauge.
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Aha! That's my next task then... ta muchly :y
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as Mr Matchless says, you need to remove the pulley wheel for the aux/ribbed belt, 6 torx(star) bolts in the middle of your mirror pic, the timing marks are behind it, on the toothed cam belt wheel that it bolts on to. Timing Mark should be in the 6 oclock position, as said.
If you dont have a torx socket, can usually get away with the nearest normal metric or imperial socket that fits snug. Not ideal though, so dont force it if feels like its going to slip. Halfords do em.
Suspense is killing me.
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I did wonder on seeing that pic if he should be taking the crank aux pulley off... but I thought i'd let someone else say so. :)
I'm following this thread with interest too - it's like eastenders only a lot more interesting!
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I did wonder on seeing that pic if he should be taking the crank aux pulley off... but I thought i'd let someone else say so. :)
I'm following this thread with interest too - it's like eastenders only a lot more interesting!
Ah, y'see, it's been three years since I've done a timing belt, and didn't want to pull it off if I didn't have to. Better to ask a stupid question, and all that... ;)
Re: Eastenders, I think there's the potential for even more Schadenfreude in this topic... ;) :y
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I doubt eastenders would use the term Schadenfreude in any episode - as much as they might delight in the expression of it.
Anyway, far from me expressing delight at your misfortune, I'm merely hoping that you resolve it successfully! :y :y
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I doubt eastenders would use the term Schadenfreude in any episode - as much as they might delight in the expression of it.
Anyway, far from me expressing delight at your misfortune, I'm merely hoping that you resolve it successfully! :y :y
As am I. *mumbles something about if it is FUBAR, dropping a 3.2 in it instead...*
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If you do, make sure you post instructions. At some point (i.e. if I found s cheap engine) i'd love to do the same myself. You just don't get the same grunt out of a 2.6.
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If you do, make sure you post instructions. At some point (i.e. if I found s cheap engine) i'd love to do the same myself. You just don't get the same grunt out of a 2.6.
First step is to ring the insurers... bearing in mind I'm 21, 3 years NCB, my insurers only want £90/ year more if I drop a 3.2 in... :y
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Unless you plan on tuning the engine I would stick with a 3.0, they are much much cheaper, readily available and can be chipped to produce more BHP the the 3.2 cheaply ;)
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Unless you plan on tuning the engine I would stick with a 3.0, they are much much cheaper, readily available and can be chipped to produce more BHP the the 3.2 cheaply ;)
3.2 and 2.6 are same family - ie DBW and coil per plug
3.0 would be more work to fit unless the 2.6 cam covers and plenum would fit
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3.2 and 2.6 are same family - ie DBW and coil per plug
3.0 would be more work to fit unless the 2.6 cam covers and plenum would fit
Exactly - with a DBW 2.6 in, I'm assuming a 3.2 would more or less just 'drop in' as a replacement.
Anyway, no more hijacking of this thread! ;D
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yeah, no more hi jacking... Spoke to a mate yesterday, said one of his customers had a key way let go on the(2.5v6) crank toothed belt pulley... All looked fine, all the Marks lined up. Bit strange, wondered if the key went as a result of, rather than being the cause...
Anyway, you got that pulley off yet?
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:D
This car is making a fool out of me... had two days where I've been too busy to look at it... just gone out to it now, and the damn thing doesn't want to let me in! Pressing the unlock button, I can hear the control unit clicking, but there's no movement on the locks, no indicator flash, nothing.
No lights were left on, or anything open - even the bonnet is down, just with a couple of bits under it. Call to the RAC tomorrow morning, me thinks... unless there's a quick tip? There's no movement on the door key in either direction, and as I've only got one, I don't really want to be snapping it...
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I'm sure others will say the same. You can be pretty tough with the door key to open it. you may think you are going to break it but you should not. Be brave!!!
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Oddly enough, the car decided to let me in with the key this morning... popped the bonnet, bottom pulley straight off... and the marks were all lined up. Bugger.
Moved to the top and back of the engine for a look, and there's actually a cam cover bolt missing from the rear of the passenger side, and a nice misting of oil over all the associated parts... including the coil pack connector.
On the one hand, I'm glad I've checked the timing is still bob on, I'd hate to do the coil pack and then find it had slipped... on the other, I'm pissed off that I now need another bolt, and to take the cam covers off, and do the gaskets again myself... and that's what, £60 of parts including the correct sealants? Plus then if the coil pack is faulty, I don't want to clean everything and reassemble it for no reason.
Honestly, if I bought an ex-plodder for a grand, took the engine out, how much money would I get back by selling off other parts? £500?
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did you get the email i sent you?
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did you get the email i sent you?
*swore blind he'd replied to your PM*
Aye, I did, exactly what I needed. Cheers mate :)
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Yeah sorry just rechecked my inbox and i had allready read it sorry late night that one .
( Must really check things when i wake up again LOL)