Omega Owners Forum

Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Lizzie_Zoom on 08 January 2009, 15:04:36

Title: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 08 January 2009, 15:04:36
.......that is driving me mad every time I open or close my drivers door! >:( >:( >:(

After obtaining a new special "bushing" (Vx part no. 090462823) well before Christmas, I have at last fitted it.  However, the noise is now worse and sounds as though the door is going to blow apart!

I have taken off the door card and tried to reach the internal part of the 'door stop' mechanism, without any great success, but have at least greased it all up, but still it is going .....clickity clack.......clickity clack........clickity clack....grrrrrrrrrrrrrr >:( >:( >:( >:(

Any ideas please?? :-? :-? :-?

Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: HGV mechanic on 08 January 2009, 15:09:59
hinges maybe not sure but can imagine your pain >:(
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 08 January 2009, 15:21:40
Quote
hinges maybe not sure but can imagine your pain >:(


Thanks HGV :y :y, but it is not the hinges but that silly sliding 'door stop' for sure that seems to be "twanging" the panels! >:(
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: jjleonard on 08 January 2009, 15:37:15
Is this the door check strap issue? my drivers door sounds like a bleeding wooden drawbridge when I open it. I was planning to do the check strap but it's just too flaming cold at the moment.
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 08 January 2009, 15:40:08
Quote
Is this the door check strap issue? my drivers door sounds like a bleeding wooden drawbridge when I open it. I was planning to do the check strap but it's just too flaming cold at the moment.

Yes Leonard, you are using the correct word for it; I call it a bloody stupid thingy >:( :D :D ;)

What do you think we can do about it?

I know eventually the mountings are going to 'pop' if I don't do something, and I am certainly going to 'flip' big time rather thing! >:(
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 08 January 2009, 15:41:13
Are the bolts that secure the check strap to the door tight?

Any sign of damage to the metal section where the bolts are on the door?
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: jjleonard on 08 January 2009, 15:43:11
Quote
Quote
Is this the door check strap issue? my drivers door sounds like a bleeding wooden drawbridge when I open it. I was planning to do the check strap but it's just too flaming cold at the moment.

Yes Leonard, you are using the correct word for it; I call it a bloody stupid thingy >:( :D :D ;)

What do you think we can do about it?

I know eventually the mountings are going to 'pop' if I don't do something, and I am certainly going to 'flip' big time rather thing! >:(

Right now Lizzie, I have no idea. I'm just going to get the bits, follow the guide and hope it all works when I do it. As far as I can see the check strap just stops the door swinging past the hinge stop when it's open - perhaps you might be better off with a sturdy bit of string when the check strap finally gives in!  :y
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 08 January 2009, 16:03:31
Quote
Are the bolts that secure the check strap to the door tight?

Any sign of damage to the metal section where the bolts are on the door?


Yes thanks Mark, all bolts have been tightened, and there is no external sign of damage to the metal panels; the fixing plate on the main pillar is riveted and at the moment sound. 8-) ;)  
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 08 January 2009, 16:05:32
Quote
Quote
Quote
Is this the door check strap issue? my drivers door sounds like a bleeding wooden drawbridge when I open it. I was planning to do the check strap but it's just too flaming cold at the moment.

Yes Leonard, you are using the correct word for it; I call it a bloody stupid thingy >:( :D :D ;)

What do you think we can do about it?

I know eventually the mountings are going to 'pop' if I don't do something, and I am certainly going to 'flip' big time rather thing! >:(

Right now Lizzie, I have no idea. I'm just going to get the bits, follow the guide and hope it all works when I do it. As far as I can see the check strap just stops the door swinging past the hinge stop when it's open - perhaps you might be better off with a sturdy bit of string when the check strap finally gives in!  :y

That sound like a good idea Leonard, but perhaps leather (which they once were in early cars) straps would be better? :-?
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: benbrunt on 08 January 2009, 16:31:55
Or just parking facing uphill if it snaps  :D
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 08 January 2009, 16:34:55
Quote
Or just parking facing uphill if it snaps  :D


 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Omega man 2 on 08 January 2009, 16:37:53
My drivers door is very noisy atm. And I don't know how the straps work. Is there bushings that have to be changed? If so where are they?
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Kevin Wood on 08 January 2009, 17:00:43
Mine's the same. Keep meaning to get a new check strap as the bush was replaced recently. Will probably fit the reinforcement kit while I'm at it, and change the central locking motor,.....  ::)

Kevin
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: benbrunt on 08 January 2009, 17:00:44
Previous Astra did it, Omega sounds just the same, few Astras at work do it too, have oiled it but to no avail - I'll add it to the list of things to do, pretty much at the bottom of the list, so should be done by 2012 ::)
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Entwood on 08 January 2009, 17:02:02
How to avoid the "crack of doom"

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1161105965

If its already done the damage ... :(

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1152902108

HTH

Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: benbrunt on 08 January 2009, 17:06:56
Quote
How to avoid the "crack of doom"

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1161105965

If its already done the damage ... :(

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1152902108

HTH



Ooh, I dunno, seems a bit pricey to me! ;)
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Kevin Wood on 08 January 2009, 17:13:48
Quote
How to avoid the "crack of doom"

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1161105965

If its already done the damage ... :(

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1152902108

HTH


I wonder how the two are related, TBH. Not sure how a bit of play in the bush can result in the mechanism getting ripped out of the door.

I replaced one of these for a member a few months back and the spring on the check strap had a little roller on the end to allow it to run up and down the strap. This had worked loose and slipped out of position. The check strap mechanism had jammed and this had caused the damage to the door as the door was moved against a jammed strap.

This is why I intend to change the check strap itself.

Anyone know the part no. of the door check strap assembly itself, by chance?

Kevin
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 08 January 2009, 17:20:21
Quote
How to avoid the "crack of doom"

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1161105965

If its already done the damage ... :(

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1152902108

HTH


Thanks greatly for that Entwood! :y :y

Although I have replaced the bush, and dismantled the door card, I couldn't get to the door end of the strap.  That link you have given obviously makes it clear how to and to mount reinforcement plates which is obviously what I need to do. :D :D ;)  A job for this weekend me thinks!! :D :D ;)

Thanks again :y
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Kevin Wood on 08 January 2009, 17:25:16
Lizzie, If you remove the door speaker and reach up through the hole you can get to the rear of the strap.

Kevin
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Entwood on 08 January 2009, 17:26:11
As I understand it ... and TB or MarkDTM will probably correct me .....

If the bush is knacked the strap does not "pivot" correctly as the door opens, this puts additional sideways stress on the point where the strap enters the door, this stress causes resistance to the rolling movement of the strap and ends up pulling on the metal rather than a smooth slide.

This pull can be "heard" as the clunking from the door area, every "clunk" is the door metal moving - a bit like an old "wobble board" - this slowly weakens the metal structure until it suffers fatigue and cracks.

The repair kit strengthens the metal around the opening, replacing the bushes relieves the stress on the "pull" of the door movement.

Awaits to be told he's talking bol**cks .. but that is my, present, understanding ...
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 08 January 2009, 17:33:32
Quote
Lizzie, If you remove the door speaker and reach up through the hole you can get to the rear of the strap.

Kevin


Thanks Kevin; I did reach up through the speaker hole, but apart from feeling around the mechanism I didn't know what to do next! ::) ::) :D :D ;)

I am  going to now follow through with Entwood's suggested approach.

Anything to resolve this very annoying problem!! >:( :D ;)
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Shagma on 08 January 2009, 17:45:43
Had this problem myself.
Changed the plastic bush and oiled and greased the innside of the bush.
Tighten up the bolts holding the door check strap.
Acctually I had much more problems than that, but this is the short version;)
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Kevin Wood on 08 January 2009, 18:25:49
Quote
As I understand it ... and TB or MarkDTM will probably correct me .....

If the bush is knacked the strap does not "pivot" correctly as the door opens, this puts additional sideways stress on the point where the strap enters the door, this stress causes resistance to the rolling movement of the strap and ends up pulling on the metal rather than a smooth slide.

This pull can be "heard" as the clunking from the door area, every "clunk" is the door metal moving - a bit like an old "wobble board" - this slowly weakens the metal structure until it suffers fatigue and cracks.

The repair kit strengthens the metal around the opening, replacing the bushes relieves the stress on the "pull" of the door movement.

Awaits to be told he's talking bol**cks .. but that is my, present, understanding ...


OK. If it siezes I can understand it. Mine was just worn, and you could see that the noises were due to the strap wobbling on the bush as the spring on the strap went over each detent. It sounds more like something in the door now, so I will check for a siezed bush.

Kevin
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Del Boy on 08 January 2009, 18:40:04
Mine has this on both doors and its so annoying but the plate it coming off from where it is held on  :o I need to weld that.
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 08 January 2009, 18:47:10
Quote
Mine has this on both doors and its so annoying but the plate it coming off from where it is held on  :o I need to weld that.

Or drill bolts into the plate as I remember it being described on this site many months ago.  I was sure somewhere there is a maintenance guide on it, but cannot find at the moment! ::) ::)

 :y :y
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Del Boy on 08 January 2009, 18:57:37
Quote
Quote
Mine has this on both doors and its so annoying but the plate it coming off from where it is held on  :o I need to weld that.

Or drill bolts into the plate as I remember it being described on this site many months ago.  I was sure somewhere there is a maintenance guide on it, but cannot find at the moment! ::) ::)

 :y :y
Tried that  ;D Now I have 2 holes in there too.
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 08 January 2009, 19:01:34
Quote
Quote
Quote
Mine has this on both doors and its so annoying but the plate it coming off from where it is held on  :o I need to weld that.

Or drill bolts into the plate as I remember it being described on this site many months ago.  I was sure somewhere there is a maintenance guide on it, but cannot find at the moment! ::) ::)

 :y :y
Tried that  ;D Now I have 2 holes in there too.

Right! 8-) 8-)  Going for all belt and braces LSG then?? :D :D ;)
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Del Boy on 08 January 2009, 19:04:30
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Mine has this on both doors and its so annoying but the plate it coming off from where it is held on  :o I need to weld that.

Or drill bolts into the plate as I remember it being described on this site many months ago.  I was sure somewhere there is a maintenance guide on it, but cannot find at the moment! ::) ::)

 :y :y
Tried that  ;D Now I have 2 holes in there too.

Right! 8-) 8-)  Going for all belt and braces LSG then?? :D :D ;)
;D ;D
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: BigAl on 08 January 2009, 22:57:07
Quote
Quote
How to avoid the "crack of doom"

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1161105965

If its already done the damage ... :(

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1152902108

HTH


Thanks greatly for that Entwood! :y :y

Although I have replaced the bush, and dismantled the door card, I couldn't get to the door end of the strap.  That link you have given obviously makes it clear how to and to mount reinforcement plates which is obviously what I need to do. :D :D ;)  A job for this weekend me thinks!! :D :D ;)

Thanks again :y
If you have a facelift it may differ slightly from the guide- when i followed the above guide the only exception was my doors already had the tork bolts fitted- that confused the hell out of me when i went to refit the bolts and they were all the same  :y
the procedure is exactly as described, - the only fiddly bits are trying to get the check strap back into place with the inside bracket in place and then getting the bolts through the outside bracket, the car door, the inside bracket and finally the check strap, best done by someone who is patient   >:(
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 08 January 2009, 23:33:15
Quote
Quote
Quote
How to avoid the "crack of doom"

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1161105965

If its already done the damage ... :(

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1152902108

HTH


Thanks greatly for that Entwood! :y :y

Although I have replaced the bush, and dismantled the door card, I couldn't get to the door end of the strap.  That link you have given obviously makes it clear how to and to mount reinforcement plates which is obviously what I need to do. :D :D ;)  A job for this weekend me thinks!! :D :D ;)

Thanks again :y
If you have a facelift it may differ slightly from the guide- when i followed the above guide the only exception was my doors already had the tork bolts fitted- that confused the hell out of me when i went to refit the bolts and they were all the same  :y
the procedure is exactly as described, - the only fiddly bits are trying to get the check strap back into place with the inside bracket in place and then getting the bolts through the outside bracket, the car door, the inside bracket and finally the check strap, best done by someone who is patient   >:(

Oh dear! :o  That is not me then! ::) ::)
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Seth on 09 January 2009, 11:11:03
Quote
Quote
How to avoid the "crack of doom"

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1161105965

If its already done the damage ... :(

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1152902108

Got a replacement from local scrappie for four quid.
Bugger of a job to fit though ..... !
HTH



Ooh, I dunno, seems a bit pricey to me! ;)
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Shagma on 09 January 2009, 15:30:48
I strongly advice removing the door and put it flat on the ground before starting on this task, this way you can place the door check strap on the correct spot easily.. Its easy acctualy..
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 09 January 2009, 15:32:40
Quote
I strongly advice removing the door and put it flat on the ground before starting on this task, this way you can place the door check strap on the correct spot easily.. Its easy acctualy..


Cheers for that Shagma, may try that! :y :y
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Shagma on 09 January 2009, 15:49:19
performed this repair on my left side front door, took me about 1 hour all in all.. putting in a flat steel brick to reinforce the area..Good luck:)
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Entwood on 09 January 2009, 17:15:43
Quote
Quote
I strongly advice removing the door and put it flat on the ground before starting on this task, this way you can place the door check strap on the correct spot easily.. Its easy acctualy..


Cheers for that Shagma, may try that! :y :y

Just remember that miggy doors are Bloody Heavy ... take a lot of care .... and get some strong lads in to help .... :y :y :y :y
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Kevin Wood on 09 January 2009, 17:40:11
Quote
Quote
Quote
I strongly advice removing the door and put it flat on the ground before starting on this task, this way you can place the door check strap on the correct spot easily.. Its easy acctualy..


Cheers for that Shagma, may try that! :y :y

Just remember that miggy doors are Bloody Heavy ... take a lot of care .... and get some strong lads in to help .... :y :y :y :y

.. and if you don't disconnect the battery first the airbag ECU will get in a strop.

Personally, I didn't find it too bad to change the strap. a bit fiddly to get everything lined up but not bad enough to justify removing the door IMHO.

Kevin
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Andy B on 09 January 2009, 17:56:12
Quote
......
Personally, I didn't find it too bad to change the strap. a bit fiddly to get everything lined up but not bad enough to justify removing the door IMHO.

Kevin

It might be easier if you did as per TIS and replaced the failed section in the front edge of the door.
This is the driver's side :-
(http://img4011.photobox.co.uk/76625174e477af3f36b2cd592dd5457ee4544302cc965760caafb3fc2bf7798cbcefca7b.jpg)

Both my front doors have been 'repaired' using just stainless repair plates though!  ;)  :y
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 09 January 2009, 17:57:30
Quote
Quote
Quote
I strongly advice removing the door and put it flat on the ground before starting on this task, this way you can place the door check strap on the correct spot easily.. Its easy acctualy..


Cheers for that Shagma, may try that! :y :y

Just remember that miggy doors are Bloody Heavy ... take a lot of care .... and get some strong lads in to help .... :y :y :y :y

You are right Entwood and I hadn't given that much thought! :o :o :o
Thanks! :y :y :y

I think I will do what you and Kevin suggests and try it first without taking the door off. 8-) 8-)  I just don't want to make this operation more difficult than it should be, and I am certainly not strong enough to support that door.  My two sons are a long off, and the few men I know locally are all wimps! :D :D ;)
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 09 January 2009, 17:59:03
Quote
Quote
......
Personally, I didn't find it too bad to change the strap. a bit fiddly to get everything lined up but not bad enough to justify removing the door IMHO.

Kevin

It might be easier if you did as per TIS and replaced the failed section in the front edge of the door.
This is the driver's side :-
(http://img4011.photobox.co.uk/76625174e477af3f36b2cd592dd5457ee4544302cc965760caafb3fc2bf7798cbcefca7b.jpg)

Both my front doors have been 'repaired' using just stainless repair plates though!  ;)  :y


Thanks Andy! :y

Is that the Vx part number I can see in black ink on the plate? :-/

Do you fit it from inside the door?  i.e. vi the speaker hole? :-?

Cheers :y
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Andy B on 09 January 2009, 18:40:19
Quote
.....


Thanks Andy! :y

Is that the Vx part number I can see in black ink on the plate? :-/

Do you fit it from inside the door?  i.e. vi the speaker hole? :-?

Cheers :y

Yes Lizzie, that's the part number, it was only a few quid to buy a couple of years back. It's still in my garage because on reflection the full TIS repair wasn't worth the effort. If you look at the front edge of the door, near the hinge, you can see where this palte was originally spot welded in. I think you'd have to strip the door of all the window mechanism so you could get in to drill the spot welds off from the INSIDE of the door. The new plate would then have to be plug welded back in.
Just use reinforcing plates on both sides of the door skin!  :y  :y
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 09 January 2009, 18:41:38
Quote
Quote
.....


Thanks Andy! :y

Is that the Vx part number I can see in black ink on the plate? :-/

Do you fit it from inside the door?  i.e. vi the speaker hole? :-?

Cheers :y

Yes Lizzie, that's the part number, it was only a few quid to buy a couple of years back. It's still in my garage because on reflection the full TIS repair wasn't worth the effort. If you look at the front edge of the door, near the hinge, you can see where this palte was originally spot welded in. I think you'd have to strip the door of all the window mechanism so you could get in to drill the spot welds off from the INSIDE of the door. The new plate would then have to be plug welded back in.
Just use reinforcing plates on both sides of the door skin!  :y  :y


Thanks again Andy! :y :y
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Shagma on 10 January 2009, 12:45:49
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
I strongly advice removing the door and put it flat on the ground before starting on this task, this way you can place the door check strap on the correct spot easily.. Its easy acctualy..


Cheers for that Shagma, may try that! :y :y

Just remember that miggy doors are Bloody Heavy ... take a lot of care .... and get some strong lads in to help .... :y :y :y :y

.. and if you don't disconnect the battery first the airbag ECU will get in a strop.

Personally, I didn't find it too bad to change the strap. a bit fiddly to get everything lined up but not bad enough to justify removing the door IMHO.

Kevin

Maybe I have misread the thread, but I thought the front door section was damaged, and needed insertion plates.
In case the door is still functional I truely support your view, NOT to remove the door.
I apoligize for that confusing comment.
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Lizzie_Zoom on 10 January 2009, 12:48:35
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
I strongly advice removing the door and put it flat on the ground before starting on this task, this way you can place the door check strap on the correct spot easily.. Its easy acctualy..


Cheers for that Shagma, may try that! :y :y

Just remember that miggy doors are Bloody Heavy ... take a lot of care .... and get some strong lads in to help .... :y :y :y :y

.. and if you don't disconnect the battery first the airbag ECU will get in a strop.

Personally, I didn't find it too bad to change the strap. a bit fiddly to get everything lined up but not bad enough to justify removing the door IMHO.

Kevin

Maybe I have misread the thread, but I thought the front door section was damaged, and needed insertion plates.
In case the door is still functional I truely support your view, NOT to remove the door.
I apoligize for that confusing comment.

Not at all Shagma, your comments were in fact extremely useful to me and if plan  'A' doesn't work, then your plan 'B' will be my approach! :D :D 8-) :y


Not doing it this weekend though; far too cold out there! ::) ::) :)
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: cbowditch on 10 January 2009, 14:01:13
I don't blame you its the warmest part of the day and only reached -3.5  :( Can't even wash the car let alone do anything more complex in this cold
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 10 January 2009, 16:19:16
I dont know.....just finished doing the front discs, pads and an oil change on one of mine!
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: HCG on 17 February 2009, 22:48:34
Hey - smug git here - had the "clickity clack" bit and spent 58p on two neoprene bushes for the front door straps. 5 minutes with my not-so-good-tool skills and bloody hell it fixed it. It's a 2003 by the way. :y
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: Olympia5776 on 18 February 2009, 00:02:33
As was said earlier ,if you remove the door speaker and reach up into the cavity you'll find the door check strap mechanism and this is it below.
The problem is usually the roller seizes which transfers the click ,as the roller drops into the valley of the check , forward onto the A piller.
If you don't have the reinforcing plates fitted I strongly advise you to do it at the same time you check/clean grease the check mechnism.
If you need part nos. let me know 'cause the dealer will say that they don't exist..... ::)
Don

(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t261/olympia5776/Dscf0013.jpg)

(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t261/olympia5776/Dscf0008.jpg)
Title: Re: Bloody Clickity Clack........
Post by: valliant72 on 18 February 2009, 03:28:33
Hi, I used four large washers about a mill thick from B&Q to reinforce the strap surround. Fiddley to do but patience helps. On tightening, clamps the damaged surround. Done them about 6 months ago and still working fine on both front doors :y took the door strap out, flattened as much of the damaged surround as possible, greased the check strap put a washer on a bolt put that into its hole if any left then, put a washer on the other side and fed the strap upto the bolt and tightened a little just to give enough play to get the other bolt and the washer up inside then tightened them both and bolt strap to pillar. Hope its of some help. i found raising the car slightly on the side you are doing helps with the awkward position you need to get your hands in.

Ps: dam getting told off in text for abbreviating words. Texting has made my spelling worse. lol (oops laugh out loud) ;D