Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: chrisdb on 08 March 2009, 17:20:38
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My engine sounds like a London taxi - long story! I made a recording of it. It's quite loud because the engine is cold but the knocking sound coming from the top of the engine is just as loud when the engine warms up.
http://sp.sintinol.co.uk/Bad%20engine.avi
Grateful for any ideas.
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Is is a Traktor (TD)?
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Is is a Traktor (TD)?
No, but sounds like one :( It's a 3.0 v6 petrol.
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difficult to tell really (crap speakers on my lappy). Are you down on power? Cam timing?, any word done recently?
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I have not driven it since the noise started. Here's the history:-
Left hand side exhaust manifold gasket needed doing as well as timing belt. Stipped down, removed head, replaced gasket, put back did timing.
all seemed OK but slight knocking noise seemed to be coming from right hand side camshafts. Stripped down to re-check the timing and all was OK except that the right lower tensioner was leaking grease - it was a complete new set I had fitted. Replaced all the tensioners with another new set. Timed up, all OK except still had knocking sound from right hand side, as well as tappety sound from left.
Removed plenum and inlet manifold - upper and lower to check but all was OK. Put back manifold and plenum and now have this noise. I did have problems with the exhaust too - the gasket was leaking between the manifold and cat - lots of problems - had to drill out old stauds which were a different type - replaced with genuine studs. Exhaust is OK now I think.
Could the manifold nust have worked loose fron 20nm? The cat - manifold bolts had worked loose a couple of times which is why I replaced the nuts and studs...
Out of ideas now but too scared to drive it.
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Have you removed aux belt and ran the engine to discount ancillary problems :question
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hmm - did you have a problem with the belt slipping when you did the timing. If so are you sure that you've got the cams on the right timing marks? you need 1,2,3,4 from L to R
apologies if I'm barking up the wrong tree - just remember someone on here had a slipping belt
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hmm - did you have a problem with the belt slipping when you did the timing. If so are you sure that you've got the cams on the right timing marks? you need 1,2,3,4 from L to R
apologies if I'm barking up the wrong tree - just remember someone on here had a slipping belt
Yes, I had a lot of problems with the belt slipping. It was caused because I had too much slack in the belt, after after lots of advice I managed to tension the belt properly and the timing stayed spot on after I hand cranked several times. A couple of times when I was having trouble the cams got badly out and I had to rotate back to 60btdc but I was very careful to not force the crank when it hit a valve. I suppose I should check the timing again now, but if it has moved them I'm really stuck as I don;t know what would cause this after everything is set and tensioned properly...
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Have you removed aux belt and ran the engine to discount ancillary problems :question
I did this when I had the very light faint knocking noise the first time - it was more of a grinding than knocking noise. The noise was still there with the belt removed.
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hmm - did you have a problem with the belt slipping when you did the timing. If so are you sure that you've got the cams on the right timing marks? you need 1,2,3,4 from L to R
apologies if I'm barking up the wrong tree - just remember someone on here had a slipping belt
Yes, I had a lot of problems with the belt slipping. It was caused because I had too much slack in the belt, after after lots of advice I managed to tension the belt properly and the timing stayed spot on after I hand cranked several times. A couple of times when I was having trouble the cams got badly out and I had to rotate back to 60btdc but I was very careful to not force the crank when it hit a valve. I suppose I should check the timing again now, but if it has moved them I'm really stuck as I don;t know what would cause this after everything is set and tensioned properly...
That doesn't sound good Chris, the valves don't take much to bend. I would check the timing again and if its OK do a compression test.
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Thanks Pete. It sounds like maybe I have done damage in that case. A couple of times while cranking back round to tdc the crank wouldn't budge and I guessed that this was an indication the valve was hitting, but maybe that gave me a false sense of security and I've actually bent some valves without realising.
I've been having to use a hire car for the last couple of weeks andit's getting really expensive now so I think I'll buy a couple of heads and just replace them. Not loking forward to that job :(
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do not rush into buying new heads just yet. I would be surprised if you have managed to bend a valve IF you never forced anything. Anyway, my first suggestion is to strip the cambelt cover off and double check the cam timing. remember the crank pullies have two timing marks; you need to align the right one of the pair for each cam. it may be possible that you have got the wrong alignment mark. If not, well the work you've done to stip the cover off is not wasted if you are fitting new heads.
I may be able to help out on sunday if you want
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do not rush into buying new heads just yet. I would be surprised if you have managed to bend a valve IF you never forced anything. Anyway, my first suggestion is to strip the cambelt cover off and double check the cam timing. remember the crank pullies have two timing marks; you need to align the right one of the pair for each cam. it may be possible that you have got the wrong alignment mark. If not, well the work you've done to stip the cover off is not wasted if you are fitting new heads.
I may be able to help out on sunday if you want
Thanks Jonathan, I'll take your advice. The locking kit I bought was quite cheap and the timing gauge does not fit between the cams very easily. I grounded it down slightly in my sander but it was still very stiff. Maybe the gauge is faulty? I'll certainly strip it all down though and check again. If the fault is not obvious then I will take you up on your offer of help :y
Cheers, chris
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Just remembered something else... When I stripped down the timing belt I found that the knock sensor wire had been trapped and crushed by the aux belt tensioner. I cut out the damaged part of the wire and did a solder repair, and the used heat shrink wrap to cover it all.
When I first started the car after this I had the EML list and a number of codes, one of which was the knock sensor. After I drove for about 10 minutes the eml went out and stayed off. If there is a problem with the knock sensor what symptoms would I get?
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I assume athat all the cam bearing cap are ok and torqued down?
No T vents missing in the heads?
All followers are ok?
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I will check the cam bearing caps. I torqued them to 8nm. I was also careful to put all the followers and bearings in their orginal locations. I don't know what the T vents are though...
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T-vents are mounted in the head.....if not removed then not an issue.
I assume the oil pressure is ok?
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Okay, did not remove the T vents. The oil pressure warning light does not come on so just assuming that the pressure is OK.
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Well, stripped down this morning and it does seem to be a cambelt problem. The first thing you'll notice from the pictures is that the tensioner has 'un-tensioned'. Then you'll notice the fine bits of shredded belt. Then... why do the roller look like they'be been cooking? I'm just off to see if I can get a 3rd new cambelt kit :(
(http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo46/debelc/P1000129.jpg)
(http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo46/debelc/P1000128.jpg)
(http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo46/debelc/P1000130.jpg)
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It looks to me as though one of your idlers is not turning and the back of the belt is burnt. There's a spacer goes behind one of the single adjusters (forget which). Did you put that in?
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wow! the bottom pic is interesting. only the bottom of the roller is cooked - is this the one not turning? that would also fit with the wear on the belt and frayed bits
to make certain here you do need to methodically identify the problem. for example, lock the cams, take the tensioner off, remove the belt and then examine the rollers carefully to see whether they are loose (i.e. what one has slipped to make you lose tension) and if they are turning.
It sounds laborious but identifying the problem meas that if the belt kit is faulty at least you'll get it replaced.
remeber when refitting the belt, you should always be able to return to TDC and get the tensioner back on. Even after 40k miles, the tensioner should be pretty much aligned with the tension mark at TDC.
if you hit any problems post up here, I'll be online throughtout the day. Inbetween stripping my cambelt cover off as I'm sure one of the tensioners is noisy on start up and I don't trust it
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Thanks guys. Just back from getting a new kit. I suspect, from your comments that I screwed up. Will strip it down carefully and report back later.
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Just removed the old rollers now. I thought maybe I had missed the washer off, but no... As suggested, thelower roller was totally siezed, but the washer was in place, and comparing it to the new new one, the washer is identical. There is also some scratching on the rear cover where it has come into contact with the roller.
I'm a bit scared now as don't know what I did wrong... :-/
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ok next step is to identify why the roller siezed up. Is it a faulty roller?, try turning by hand and comparing to the new one.
is it jamming against the backplace? in which case, identify why
is it that the washer is not big enough?
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Okay, now I really do need some help! How can I work out what backplate I need?...
When I ordered the first kit I did not notice until I was ready to fit it, that the back plate was a different size. Also, for some strange reason I seem to remeber that the kit came with two seperate rollers and the back plate, but this kit only had one seperate roller.
So... I went down to the dealer with the back plate I had just taken off and eventually found a match. Atfer fitting this kit I had the strange noise and so after stripping down noticed that the bottom roller was oozing grease...
So... I assumed the kit was faulty. I compared the part numbers of the rollers and tensioners to the first set I had bought (which) was the wrong types, and saw that they were the same so I swapped rollers and tensioners over, using the new washers.
When I went to get the new kit today I did not have the old one with me, but for some reason I had it in mind that my type had EB stamped on it - I remembered this from last year when I followed the cambelt DVD. So I bought the EB one that they had.
After rumaging though the rubble to find the original I had taken off I found a washer much thicker than the new ones - this explains the siezure. The old backplate is marked 01, as is the one I have just taken off. The first 'wrong' one I bought is marked '6B' in small letters...
So why does the 01 kit have a washer that is too thin? And how can I work out what kit I need?
:-/ :( :-?
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there are two or three cambelt kits available. the engine number is the key to the right kit. i'll see if i can get the right kit number for you from the trade club website
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hmmm... looked on TC site and it lists 93188674, which is the one that I bought today.... I think that all three of the kits have the same part number though.
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I couldn't get on the TC site. I did look at contitech and they do have three listed. There is no way VX would have the same part number for three diff kits. pulleys and belt lengths are different
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does this post help?
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1186880856/0
and for mine I need part number 9201887 which i remeber is an 01 backplate
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up to engine no. 08300418 = 93188674
from eng. no. 08300419-08578511 = 9201887
from eng. no. 08578512 = 93172354
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Thanks Jonathan... same concusion here too I think - Marks DTM will know ;D I extended the hire car today and I'm going to take Monday off, and I know the stealer has each of the other kits too, so I'm much happier now. Just need to get the right, and I've had lots of practice fitting them now ;D
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or find a local factor open today who stocks contitech: the guys here reckon they're as good as VX
that way you can get finished this weekend
good luck
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I've still got the new VX one - do you think they would give me a refund? We don't have much round Chesterfield but I think I'll have a ring around!
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OK, took Jonathan's advice and actually managed to find a shop that sold the Gates kit, so gave the engine number and got the right kit - 01, except that the spacer in this kit was the correct size:)
Cleaned away all the mess of grated cambelt and carefully fitted the new one. What a difference! when I turned the adjuster anti-clockwise to take up the slack, and then to slightly adjust the timing, the movement was so positive - just a slight turn moved the timing marks quite a long way - nothing like the kits from before! Also, I struggled to hold the 30mm spanner at the same time a torquing the bolts, but no problem this time - in fact, I could set the final torque without even using the spanner on the rollers or the tensioners.
I did quite a lot of turns of the crank and the timing did not move at all after the initial adjustment. The tensioner did move and I stoped after each couple of turns and reset it, but the amount it moved each time after that was kind of random - however it never moved very far, so left it in the end.
Put everything back carefully, had a cup of tea and then started. Engine sounds beautiful. It's the first time that everything has been working right since I started as I also removed then head and changed the exhaust manifiold gasket, DIS pack and thermostat.
Drives very smoothly. Only thing I get know is that at at exactly 70mph I start to get a sound like a mouse with tin boots walking randomly underneath the facial near the bulk head. I noticed that the sound also happend below 70 and more pronounced when the heater is on - I turned it off because the aircon was drained for the head work.
Anyhow, will have a look at this tomorrow. Hopefully can start on the suspension work in a couple of weeks :)
Thanks for all your help folks. :y
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great news :) also pleased to hear that the the vales and pistons didn't have a little chat when the belt slipped - that was a near one.
the refund question is an interesting one. Depends what you asked for when you bought the kit. If you asked for an EB or 6B backplate one you are relying on their goodwill (and they are usually pretty reasonable) but if you gave your engine number from the car pass and they selected the wrong part - its their fault so you'll get your money back. at the very least put the unused kit on here or up for auction = you'll get some money back
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great news :) also pleased to hear that the the vales and pistons didn't have a little chat when the belt slipped - that was a near one.
the refund question is an interesting one. Depends what you asked for when you bought the kit. If you asked for an EB or 6B backplate one you are relying on their goodwill (and they are usually pretty reasonable) but if you gave your engine number from the car pass and they selected the wrong part - its their fault so you'll get your money back. at the very least put the unused kit on here or up for auction = you'll get some money back
Thanks Jonathan. I'm not so worried about the kit because they did not know what one it was - we looked at each one and I chose the EB one. Anyway, I get on quite well with them and they do give me good discounts too - better the TC. As I have to buy some springs next I reckon they will do a swap with me ;)
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if you are after a set of rear springs then VX prices will be extorsionate! KYB are good and should be about £35 a pop. VX prices are a joke
of and FYI TC discount is typically bigger than straight trade discount
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Can't get the self levelling springs anywhere. I've tried all the KYB stockists. Can't even get them from the scrap yards:( I don't really want to put standard springs in it as the shocks are brand new self levelling.
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ah ha. should have guessed self levellers. Makes me wonder who makes the original ones. Fine the OEM and you may be able to find aftermarket ones