Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Jimbob on 12 July 2009, 20:46:07
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Crank sensors, new genuine ones from Vauxhall.
Wires routed well away from anything hot...
How long should they last?
I replaced on in Ljay's May last year.
Its not been running perfectly so took a look, found and fixed an airleak (top hat seal)
re-blocked the EGr with a proper lump of metal, cans melt through in no time.
Also, had a code 19, I check codes regularly, and it has only just appeared, will be monitoring carefully for a reoccurence before changing though, but really think they should last more than 14 months!
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Crank sensors, new genuine ones from Vauxhall.
Wires routed well away from anything hot...
How long should they last?
I replaced on in Ljay's May last year.
Its not been running perfectly so took a look, found and fixed an airleak (top hat seal)
re-blocked the EGr with a proper lump of metal, cans melt through in no time.
Also, had a code 19, I check codes regularly, and it has only just appeared, will be monitoring carefully for a reoccurence before changing though, but really think they should last more than 14 months!
I'm touching wood! ;D
Vauxhall fitted mine in Feb 2004 ..... so far so good.
There's a new one in its box in the boot though .... just in case! :y :y
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It looks like I need a new one. :( Hope it lasts plenty! Anyone know how long it takes to fit tho? and any guides for doing just that?! :-/
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Likewise I had one that lasted four months. Boys said to make sure I use the genuine vs a third party this time. Seemed vary illogical that the part would fail so fast.
Good Luck :y
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It looks like I need a new one. :( Hope it lasts plenty! Anyone know how long it takes to fit tho? and any guides for doing just that?! :-/
5 mins, and there is a guide in the maint section, along with the alternate routing :y
14 months seems short to me, there will be daily code checks for a bit :y
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i've had 3on my car in 17mths. first 2 were vx didnt last 9 mths between them. 3rd is a pattern. seems to be lasting longer. i always try and use genuine parts but at over £60 each for vx's against just a tad over £38 for a pattern 1 that lasts longer. thinki'll use pattern from now on.
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i've had 3on my car in 17mths. first 2 were vx didnt last 9 mths between them. 3rd is a pattern. seems to be lasting longer. i always try and use genuine parts but at over £60 each for vx's against just a tad over £38 for a pattern 1 that lasts longer. thinki'll use pattern from now on.
unusual to hear good results from a pattern crank sensor, normally horror stories.
do you know what make your pattern one is?
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will have to check thru reciepts and get back to you. :y
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why is it V6 ones seem to fail so quickly? I have never touch mine *touch wood, or father tunnies.
It seams cam sensor is the more common failure on 4 pots, but i replaced mine 3 years ago.
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why is it V6 ones seem to fail so quickly? I have never touch mine *touch wood, or father tunnies.
It seams cam sensor is the more common failure on 4 pots, but i replaced mine 3 years ago.
often 'thought' to be heat from the origial cable routing.
this one is straight over, and down behind the abs pipes in the relative cool.
maybe crank sensor quality has gone the same way as the exhausts :-/
wonder what the earliest 'original sensor' failure was.
I know mine had one in the late 90000's and that is still running fine at 130k
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why is it V6 ones seem to fail so quickly? I have never touch mine *touch wood, or father tunnies.
It seams cam sensor is the more common failure on 4 pots, but i replaced mine 3 years ago.
often 'thought' to be heat from the origial cable routing.
this one is straight over, and down behind the abs pipes in the relative cool.
maybe crank sensor quality has gone the same way as the exhausts :-/
wonder what the earliest 'original sensor' failure was.
I know mine had one in the late 90000's and that is still running fine at 130k
Vauxhall fitted mine, so I don't know what the routing was like before, but it's now towards the back of the cooler pipes in a convoluted flexi conduit.
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Gen Vx lasted 6 months on mine >:( Dealer wont supply foc replacement!
Vx now say bring car in and they will replace foc if faulty - what a con bl**dy car wont start with the faulty sensor on and I'm 12 miles from dealers!! Sale of goods Act??
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why is it V6 ones seem to fail so quickly? I have never touch mine *touch wood, or father tunnies.
It seams cam sensor is the more common failure on 4 pots, but i replaced mine 3 years ago.
often 'thought' to be heat from the origial cable routing.
this one is straight over, and down behind the abs pipes in the relative cool.
maybe crank sensor quality has gone the same way as the exhausts :-/
wonder what the earliest 'original sensor' failure was.
I know mine had one in the late 90000's and that is still running fine at 130k
I think that is most likely, exhausts we can physically feel in weight and design, and can see the changes.
With Sensors, no such luck. I guess we should try and pull one apart? An early one and a later one?
I suspect Vx are offsetting all the suppliers out there to the cheapest bidder
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any guesses how long I will be waiting for another 19 to be stored?
idled on the drive for 1/2 hour, nothing, will have had a few trips today, be interesting to see if it is back already :-/
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This might explain why we were scratching our heads over VMax's stalling issue. New crank sensor fitted, still getting code 19s, still stalling. >:(
Kevin
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I had to fit a "pattern" one on mine in August but managed to get an identical Bosch one :y :y
Was still showing a code 19 until TB cleared it last weekend with the Tech 2 and AFAIK it's still clear (haven't checked it yet today!)
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This might explain why we were scratching our heads over VMax's stalling issue. New crank sensor fitted, still getting code 19s, still stalling. >:(
Kevin
DOA is another ball game altogether >:(
suspose you would have to try one in another car to prove.
That is at least one luxury I have with 2 x 3.0's
dont like disturbing working parts though :(
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It looks like I need a new one. :( Hope it lasts plenty! Anyone know how long it takes to fit tho? and any guides for doing just that?! :-/
5 mins, and there is a guide in the maint section, along with the alternate routing :y
14 months seems short to me, there will be daily code checks for a bit :y
my arse. i been fiddling with the nut for over half an hour. oh and the guide's no good for a two litre.
an i dropped the nut. and cant get the sensor out
and cant take the belt or pump off as it doesnt make sense.
im never attempting sensor replacement again!
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I have had my car 10 years and done in excess of 100k in it without changing the crank sensor. It may possibly be the original though I can't be certain. No part number just a useful(not) SAAB stamped on its head.
maybe like washing machines. Old ones lasted , modern ones pack up after two years, two weeks and two days.
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It looks like I need a new one. :( Hope it lasts plenty! Anyone know how long it takes to fit tho? and any guides for doing just that?! :-/
5 mins, and there is a guide in the maint section, along with the alternate routing :y
14 months seems short to me, there will be daily code checks for a bit :y
my arse. i been fiddling with the nut for over half an hour. oh and the guide's no good for a two litre.
an i dropped the nut. and cant get the sensor out
and cant take the belt or pump off as it doesnt make sense.
im never attempting sensor replacement again!
I think somone is in a bad mood :'(
you'll get there im sure.
V6's are easy (providing you can find the connector)
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i am not in a good mood to be true. partly as i woke at 6am stressing about this sensor, and partly as the job is so fiddly. i'm supposed to be carting mates to newquay at midday :( been working on the car all last week, and now a new fault pops at the wrong time.
i've let them all down >:(
It's NOT a v6 tho. it's a 2.0 16v. which seems to be overlooked quite often. even haynes dont mention this sensor! think i'm a bit fed up reading how easy it is...and finding the opposite.
oh and trying to work out how to loosen the fan belt? that's now a mission!
continues........
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Has anyone compared the old sensor markings with the new ones. I'm wondering if VX haven't changed supplier then maybe its Bosch, etc. going cheap? If the old and new sensors are bosch but one lasts 10 weeks instead of 10 years then maybe we should get a list of sensor manufacturers that are lasting longer than others, so we know what ones to avoid.
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My cranksensor was replaced around 3 or 4 yrs ago, after infamously failing.
Been good as gold since - I originally ran it same way as original, but MDTM reran it the easy way just over a year ago whilst he was spitting in my pistons :o
Jimbob - just a thought, but your cable isn't flapping around at speed, causing the cable to prematurely go intermittent?
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My cranksensor was replaced around 3 or 4 yrs ago, after infamously failing.
Been good as gold since - I originally ran it same way as original, but MDTM reran it the easy way just over a year ago whilst he was spitting in my pistons :o
Jimbob - just a thought, but your cable isn't flapping around at speed, causing the cable to prematurely go intermittent?
iirc it is loosely cabletied, so has limited movement
my one is prob a similar age to yours, this was bought a year ago last may
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My cranksensor was replaced around 3 or 4 yrs ago, after infamously failing.
Been good as gold since - I originally ran it same way as original, but MDTM reran it the easy way just over a year ago whilst he was spitting in my pistons :o
Jimbob - just a thought, but your cable isn't flapping around at speed, causing the cable to prematurely go intermittent?
iirc it is loosely cabletied, so has limited movement
my one is prob a similar age to yours, this was bought a year ago last may
I'd like to think, as you run multiple V6s, you'd have a spare anyway, if the codes return ;D
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It looks like I need a new one. :( Hope it lasts plenty! Anyone know how long it takes to fit tho? and any guides for doing just that?! :-/
5 mins, and there is a guide in the maint section, along with the alternate routing :y
14 months seems short to me, there will be daily code checks for a bit :y
my arse. i been fiddling with the nut for over half an hour. oh and the guide's no good for a two litre.
an i dropped the nut. and cant get the sensor out
and cant take the belt or pump off as it doesnt make sense.
im never attempting sensor replacement again!
Oh yes, 2.0l one is a right bugger if you have A/C :'(
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My cranksensor was replaced around 3 or 4 yrs ago, after infamously failing.
Been good as gold since - I originally ran it same way as original, but MDTM reran it the easy way just over a year ago whilst he was spitting in my pistons :o
Jimbob - just a thought, but your cable isn't flapping around at speed, causing the cable to prematurely go intermittent?
iirc it is loosely cabletied, so has limited movement
my one is prob a similar age to yours, this was bought a year ago last may
I'd like to think, as you run multiple V6s, you'd have a spare anyway, if the codes return ;D
I keep one at the dealers down the road ::)
as I can get them next day, dont see a lot of point in carrying a £60 spare part
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I had to change my cs sensor in March, it was still the origional in place whats good for 13,5 years.
I didnt get a Vx replacement :-[ as I didnt have the cash for it but paid £43 from my local parts shop, its made by facet in italy and up to now I cant complain.
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My cranksensor was replaced around 3 or 4 yrs ago, after infamously failing.
Been good as gold since - I originally ran it same way as original, but MDTM reran it the easy way just over a year ago whilst he was spitting in my pistons :o
Jimbob - just a thought, but your cable isn't flapping around at speed, causing the cable to prematurely go intermittent?
iirc it is loosely cabletied, so has limited movement
my one is prob a similar age to yours, this was bought a year ago last may
I'd like to think, as you run multiple V6s, you'd have a spare anyway, if the codes return ;D
I keep one at the dealers down the road ::)
as I can get them next day, dont see a lot of point in carrying a £60 spare part
saying that, the day i am stranded i will regret that choice ;D ;D ;D
or if Ljay is stranded, Im sure she will make me regret it even more :-[
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My cranksensor was replaced around 3 or 4 yrs ago, after infamously failing.
Been good as gold since - I originally ran it same way as original, but MDTM reran it the easy way just over a year ago whilst he was spitting in my pistons :o
Jimbob - just a thought, but your cable isn't flapping around at speed, causing the cable to prematurely go intermittent?
iirc it is loosely cabletied, so has limited movement
my one is prob a similar age to yours, this was bought a year ago last may
I'd like to think, as you run multiple V6s, you'd have a spare anyway, if the codes return ;D
I keep one at the dealers down the road ::)
as I can get them next day, dont see a lot of point in carrying a £60 spare part
Whatever you're dealers EPC tells him, the 3.0 all take the cheaper one, so around £37 ;)
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My cranksensor was replaced around 3 or 4 yrs ago, after infamously failing.
Been good as gold since - I originally ran it same way as original, but MDTM reran it the easy way just over a year ago whilst he was spitting in my pistons :o
Jimbob - just a thought, but your cable isn't flapping around at speed, causing the cable to prematurely go intermittent?
iirc it is loosely cabletied, so has limited movement
my one is prob a similar age to yours, this was bought a year ago last may
I'd like to think, as you run multiple V6s, you'd have a spare anyway, if the codes return ;D
I keep one at the dealers down the road ::)
as I can get them next day, dont see a lot of point in carrying a £60 spare part
Whatever you're dealers EPC tells him, the 3.0 all take the cheaper one, so around £37 ;)
Your right, I remember now, they supplied the wrong one (invoice I found) and swapped it and refunded :y
I thought it was dear when I read the invoice!
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Plenty of short - medium runs today and no 19 so far :D
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Slightly off the wall suggestion here.
I am not sure but I haven't heard of anywhere as many CS problems with the vectra. Now this might be down to the in-line versus the inverse engine mounting. Or is it a different sensor?
Well I have it on reasonably good authority that the plugs are different (round and square). I don't know about the sensor. If the only difference is the plug, why not try a vectra sensor with an Omega plug soldered on.
Not sure if it would work or even if it would be any better, but someone may want to try it.
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I spent a bit of time today dissecting the crank sensor that I replaced the other week. It was still working, as far as the ECU could tell (no fault codes, no EML), but the outer insulation of the cable was all but gone.
Having carried around a genuine spare for a year or so, I thought I'd fit that, and maybe mend the cable on the old one. After looking a bit closer, this seemed impossible, so I thought I'd sacrifice it for 'learning'. Towards the sensor end of the cable, not only had the outer insulation cracked and disintegrated, but the inner insulation on the 3 wires inside the screening was also in a disastrous state. I'm amazed that it was still functioning TBH.
They're tough little beggars to hack to bits, I'll say that much. Eventually uncovered the fact that it appears to be a completely passive sensor, no electronic components in there at all. There seems to be a pair of coaxial coils right at the tip, wound on the inner and outer surfaces of what looks like a 'pot core'-type ferrite, with the open end facing into the crankcase.
I guess this must work as a sort of transformer, where the inner and outer coils are coupled more or less depending on the presence/absence of metal close to the tip of the sensor.
I'm not sure that all this waffle really helps anyone, but maybe someone knows about the circuitry inside the ECU that energises and reads back these coils, to make a bit more sense of the thing??? If anyone has a duff ECU they want to sacrifice to the cause, I'll happily attempt to find out this stuff if no-one has prior knowledge. :)
To sum up, the cable is the most likely thing to fail on this sensor. Oh, and make damn sure it's pushed fully home when you fit a new one, 'cos the distance of the tip from whatever it 'sees' in the crankcase is surely critical.
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it will be a hall type sensor. It appears to be the cable, not the sensor itself, that fails.
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I certainly agree with your second sentence, but I'm inclined to disagree with the first.
Don't Hall Sensors tend to have slots through which metal bits pass?
This site seems to be quite useful:
http://www.aa1car.com/library/crank_sensors.htm
From which:
"The third type of crankshaft position sensor is a magnetic pickup that reads slots machined in a "reluctor" ring in the center of the crankshaft, on the harmonic balancer or flywheel. This setup is used on GM engines with the Direct Ignition Systems (DIS) on the 2.0L, 2.5L and 2.8L engines, and the Integrated Distributorless Ignition (IDI) on the 2.3L Quad 4, and also many Ford, Chrysler and import engines.
On the GM applications, the crank reluctor ring has six equally spaced slots 60 degrees apart. A seventh slot is spaced 10 degrees from one of the others so the crank sensor will generate an extra "sync-pulse" every revolution. The PCM then uses the information to calculate proper ignition and injector timing. This type of sensor must be carefully positioned so the air gap is within .050 in. of the crankshaft reluctor ring."
:-/ :)
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Sounds like a variable reluctance sensor to me.
Typically, it'll either be a coil wound on a magnet or a pair of coils wound on a non-magnetic core.
In the former case, as teeth milled into the sensor disk pass the end of the magnetic core, some of the magnetic flux is dissipated by the teeth causing a collapse of the flux around the magnet and a corresponding voltage to be induced in the coil.
The latter type of sensor energise the core with an AC signal to one coil, and watch for fluctuations of the returning signal from the other coil. These have the advantage that they work right down to "DC" whereas the magnet type require a minimum cranking speed before you get a useable signal level from them.
Looking at the wiring diagram I'd say the crank sensor is the former. It only has a single coil (electrically, at least - maybe split into two halves physically).
The AC sensors are often used for cam sensors where you only have one tooth and it's moving at half engine speed, so low speed performance is more important.
Kevin
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Great stuff Kevin.
I honestly couldn't say for sure what the 'pot core' that has the two coils on is made from; I said ferrite 'cos that's what I expect coils to be wound on, and because it seemed harder and 'crunchier' than the other (plastic) materials used to pot the whole caboodle. All three wires did seem to go down as far as the coil(s) though.
Do you (or anyone else) think it's possible that the wiring between ECU and connector may deteriorate in the same way as the sensor cable itself (haven't even looked on mine to see whether it's screened cable for that run or not)?
Alternatively, can you see anything in the circuitry that may be adversely affected by shorted wiring, and thus make a replacement sensor potentially not 'fix it'? (Would have thought it would be fairly nailed down, protection-wise :-/)
Or generally any capacitors etc. nearby whose natural ageing may be a problem?
Just to mention; systems may not be identical between my ageing 2.0 and newer cars/V6 engines. All I can remember about my crank sensor/replacement is that it was the more expensive of the two possibilities for the 2.0. ::)
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Ahh, of course, it's a 2.0. :-[ I was looking at the V6 diagrams so it's possible that it's a different sensor type. Is the sensor core magnetic?
Indeed, if, as you say, you've got 3 wires inside the screening it looks more like AC type. I didn't pick that up the first time round.
I can't recall a failure of the loom wiring between ECU and connector, although anything is possible. However, the wiring in the loom is better protected, and not subjected to anything like as much heat and vibration.
I guess it's also possible for a short to damage the driver in the ECU but I would expect it to either work or not in this case, and I would expect the ECU to be adequately protected internally. :-/
Kevin
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...Is the sensor core magnetic?...
Dunno. I'll stick a magnet in the pile of bits/crumbs later and see whether anything sticks. :)
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I meant is the core itself a magnet? See if bits of the core stick to a pin, for example. :y
Kevin
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Nothing that will stick to a pin/needle.
The coil-former bits stick to a magnet though.
Unfortunately it seems that the sensor I have dismantled isn't the type that most of you have. ::)
Haynes (wiring diags) seems to show at least three different types, some with only two wires connected to the sensor's 'guts', and one that looks like it does have active electronic bits in.
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Here is my (simplistic & probably incorrect) view....
Think of it as the oppersite of a speaker, where as the speaker takes volts to charge the coil and move the diaphram, the sensor is the other way around. The magnet on the crank spins and causes the ferrite core to move thus generating a pulse of a low volts/millvolts.
^I may be wrong but I think the basics are there.
As for taking the sensor apart, if it's normally a wire failure, can you get the solder tags inside without destroying it too much? IE could you chop the back off or drill holes? I think you can see where this is going.
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Still no 19 reappeared.
Wonder if it was a truely phantom code :-/
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Thought i'd add here that despite the Vauxhall info that sensor part #90458251 is for 2.0 16V cars up to chassis 14194716, i've discovered mine (with number 128xxxxx) needed the later (and cheaper :y) part #9174621. I hope it lasts for yonks now!
now just to get me money back on the old one.... :(
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Cars had a good italian tune up today, be interesting to see if it has still stayed away....
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Cars had a good italian tune up today, be interesting to see if it has still stayed away....
And you're supposed to be tucked up in bed, so I wonder who has been thrashing it done the A55 ;)
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Cars had a good italian tune up today, be interesting to see if it has still stayed away....
And you're supposed to be tucked up in bed, so I wonder who has been thrashing it done the A55 ;)
Wasnt me! I was a passenger to get a change of scenery, and we never hit the A55
Twistys out over the horseshow pass to Llangollen, then out the other side and back on the quick road.
And still no 19.
So must have been a fluke...
So I would recommend anyone who gets a 19 without other faults / issues to delete it if you have the ability and watch for a reoccurence before replacing it.
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Cars had a good italian tune up today, be interesting to see if it has still stayed away....
And you're supposed to be tucked up in bed, so I wonder who has been thrashing it done the A55 ;)
Wasnt me! I was a passenger to get a change of scenery, and we never hit the A55
Twistys out over the horseshow pass to Llangollen, then out the other side and back on the quick road.
And still no 19.
So must have been a fluke...
So I would recommend anyone who gets a 19 without other faults / issues to delete it if you have the ability and watch for a reoccurence before replacing it.
I've reset a couple for people who had 19s that didn't disappear after replacing sensor.
After my failure, maybe I play overly safe, but I would recommend changing the sensor on the first occurenece (rather than waiting for any symptoms, seeing as I had no real proper warning when mine failed), then clear it if it is still there.
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can certainly see both sides....no smoke without fire etc.
in this case I think it is too early for a real failure and hope to be proved right, I suspect however a failure isnt a million miles away, will certainly be keeping a close eye on it :y