Omega Owners Forum

Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: whitebullet on 11 October 2009, 18:55:58

Title: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: whitebullet on 11 October 2009, 18:55:58
Can anybody tell me how i can turn the tick over up on my preface(00) 3.0 omega, it currently ticks over at about 500rpms to me thats way to low so i need to turn it up to about 800rpm, any help would be magic
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: serek on 11 October 2009, 18:58:50
most of v6 keep at 500-550 rpm, is different to R4 round 750-900rpm
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: RobG on 11 October 2009, 18:59:04
500-600 is the norm.
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: whitebullet on 11 October 2009, 19:01:28
to me its too low and needs turning up a smidge ;)
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: serek on 11 October 2009, 19:03:24
Quote
to me its too low and needs turning up a smidge ;)
you need find someone local with tech2 for this job
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: Bent valve on 11 October 2009, 19:05:25
It should be fine and smooth at 500. Its probably not running right
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: whitebullet on 11 October 2009, 19:07:28
Quote
Quote
to me its too low and needs turning up a smidge ;)
you need find someone local with tech2 for this job

looks like i will have to plug my machine in to then and turn it up :y
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: whitebullet on 11 October 2009, 19:10:11
Quote
It should be fine and smooth at 500. Its probably not running right

it some times feels like it wants to cut out but doesnt,
it still runs ok and no eml is on
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: TheBoy on 11 October 2009, 19:12:28
It should be a shade under 500 with A/C off, and around 550-600 with A/C on.  If its not, or its lumpy at that, you should really be fixing the problem, not the symptom ;)


Idle is controlled by ECU, and you'll need to set the idle offset via the ECU.  But I repeat, this is a bodge, not a fix.
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: whitebullet on 11 October 2009, 19:20:46
Quote
It should be a shade under 500 with A/C off, and around 550-600 with A/C on.  If its not, or its lumpy at that, you should really be fixing the problem, not the symptom ;)


Idle is controlled by ECU, and you'll need to set the idle offset via the ECU.  But I repeat, this is a bodge, not a fix.

i'll plug the machine in and see whats what before i alter anything
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: Elite Pete on 11 October 2009, 19:28:26
Put a brick on the accelerator pedal ::)
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: rustym95 on 11 October 2009, 20:21:47
There is a screw on the main intake carb where the cable is see if that has come lose, some times with the constane movement it came come lose or even chip a little of the arm off, it holds the idle. would check that, has flate screw head and an 8m nut on it, if never been tuched before will have a cap on it, the ajustment dose wear out with the costant hitting from the throttle and then be ajusted up again :y :y
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: Kevin Wood on 11 October 2009, 20:52:52
Quote
There is a screw on the main intake carb where the cable is see if that has come lose, some times with the constane movement it came come lose or even chip a little of the arm off, it holds the idle. would check that, has flate screw head and an 8m nut on it, if never been tuched before will have a cap on it, the ajustment dose wear out with the costant hitting from the throttle and then be ajusted up again :y :y

This screw is NOT an idle adjustment. The main throttles should be fully closed during idling. All idle air has to pass through the idle air valve, or it will idle lumpy.

I wouldn't touch this screw unless the throttle isn't closing fully (idle would be too fast in this case) or it's jamming closed.

Kevin
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: rustym95 on 11 October 2009, 21:18:03
no it would  had it on my one  the pin wears out and knock out the idle, had it serviced and this is what they did sorted out the idle, happens on every engine, especially if you keep dropping the throttle letting it go up fast act like a hammer and wears it away, and its easy to sort out your self. meta on metal were out. :y
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 11 October 2009, 21:25:40
Quote
no it would  had it on my one  the pin wears out and knock out the idle, had it serviced and this is what they did sorted out the idle, happens on every engine, especially if you keep dropping the throttle letting it go up fast act like a hammer and wears it away, and its easy to sort out your self. meta on metal were out. :y

I can't agree - even with the pin missing, the idle wouldn't be affected.

At idle, the throttle flaps are fully closed regardless, with the idle being contolled by the ECU, via the ICV....
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: rustym95 on 11 October 2009, 21:28:47
well do what you wont im just saying, it swing both way with out a pin(adjuster).
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 11 October 2009, 21:46:07
Quote
well do what you wont im just saying, it swing both way with out a pin(adjuster).

Yes - but again, this would open up the flaps, and allow in air - which would increase idle


Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: rustym95 on 12 October 2009, 00:07:29
well thats what they did to mine and it stopped it trying to cut out, the pin was worn and closed it off completly and knoked out the settings to the potentiometer. after it was adjusted by half a turn idle was right again only out by 0.5mm roof.
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: tigers_gonads on 12 October 2009, 08:47:13
if the revs are hunting, i'd have a look to see if you have a air / vacume leak first before you start throwing money around  :y

get yourself a can of carb / brake cleaner and spray it around any air / vacume pipes / joints / icv  :y

if the revs rise then that is where your leak is  :y



Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: TheBoy on 12 October 2009, 11:43:01
If anyone has buggered around with the throttle stop, this needs to be adjusted so throttle is 100% fully closed, before any further work is done.

I have never seen this adjust/wear themselves, so if its incorrectly set, its most lively somebody with a severe lack of understanding of injection systems has been playing
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: whitebullet on 12 October 2009, 14:41:26
Quote
If anyone has buggered around with the throttle stop, this needs to be adjusted so throttle is 100% fully closed, before any further work is done.

I have never seen this adjust/wear themselves, so if its incorrectly set, its most lively somebody with a severe lack of understanding of injection systems has been playing

i'll have quick look myself and if i cant see anything out of place then it will go to Daz(loo-knee) so he can have a butchers at it :y
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: rustym95 on 12 October 2009, 15:28:45
Quote
If anyone has buggered around with the throttle stop, this needs to be adjusted so throttle is 100% fully closed, before any further work is done.

I have never seen this adjust/wear themselves, so if its incorrectly set, its most lively somebody with a severe lack of understanding of injection systems has been playing
its 99% and 1% for the potentiometer. if the potentiometer is at 0 it should be set at 0.5, so the potentiometer is on the settings, cause of potentiometer fault is roof idle, incorrect timing ajustment out, stalling from high to low revs, and were on the throttle stopper, adjustment to the throttle is recomended after 4years or if it shows signs of wear. refenence from GM vauxhall germany.
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: dbug on 12 October 2009, 16:22:39
Quote
Quote
Quote
If anyone has buggered around with the throttle stop, this needs to be adjusted so throttle is 100% fully closed, before any further work is done.

I have never seen this adjust/wear themselves, so if its incorrectly set, its most lively somebody with a severe lack of understanding of injection systems has been playing
its 99% and 1% for the potentiometer. if the potentiometer is at 0 it should be set at 0.5, so the potentiometer is on the settings, cause of potentiometer fault is roof idle, incorrect timing ajustment out, stalling from high to low revs, and were on the throttle stopper, adjustment to the throttle is recomended after 4years or if it shows signs of wear. refenence from GM vauxhall germany.

Eh?



Ditto!!! Whats a "roof idle"??
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 12 October 2009, 16:28:41
Quote
Quote
If anyone has buggered around with the throttle stop, this needs to be adjusted so throttle is 100% fully closed, before any further work is done.

I have never seen this adjust/wear themselves, so if its incorrectly set, its most lively somebody with a severe lack of understanding of injection systems has been playing
its 99% and 1% for the potentiometer. if the potentiometer is at 0 it should be set at 0.5, so the potentiometer is on the settings, cause of potentiometer fault is roof idle, incorrect timing ajustment out, stalling from high to low revs, and were on the throttle stopper, adjustment to the throttle is recomended after 4years or if it shows signs of wear. refenence from GM vauxhall germany.

Sorry, I've just edited my post - I didn't think "eh" was very polite.

That said - I am really struggling to get my head around what you have written. It may be because I don't understand the writing style, but -

Surely, at idle, the flaps must be FULLY closed, with the only air entering the plenum coming from the ICV, which is ECU controlled?

Can you go into more depth regarding the parameters you mention and the units in which they're measured?

Do you also have a link to the article you refer to, and can you confim if it's Omega specific?
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: Kevin Wood on 12 October 2009, 16:41:06
Quote
Do you also have a link to the article you refer to, and can you confim if it's Omega specific?

I'd like to see this too. You seem to be inferring that the throttle stop should be set to give a specific reading from the throttle pot.

My understanding is that the throttle stop is set for a fully closed throttle but with no tendency to "stick" in the bore, and that the ECU will calibrate the throttle pot to give a 0% reading automatically.

I have encountered several cars where this setting has been messed about with and in call cases it has been idling poorly.

Kevin
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: Xplicit 2.0 on 12 October 2009, 17:09:57
ok so im not gonna get invloved with this too much - i'm not all to mechaniclly minded anyway, that and im not in the mood for a debate hehe - but this sounds like something that could solve a problem i have with my miggy... every now and then my miggy idles at well over 1k... i have had the ISCV off and cleaned it etc but this has not done the trick... could i be that the throttle is not fully closing as to why i am getting high/erratic idling??
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: Bent valve on 12 October 2009, 17:36:24
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
If anyone has buggered around with the throttle stop, this needs to be adjusted so throttle is 100% fully closed, before any further work is done.

I have never seen this adjust/wear themselves, so if its incorrectly set, its most lively somebody with a severe lack of understanding of injection systems has been playing
its 99% and 1% for the potentiometer. if the potentiometer is at 0 it should be set at 0.5, so the potentiometer is on the settings, cause of potentiometer fault is roof idle, incorrect timing ajustment out, stalling from high to low revs, and were on the throttle stopper, adjustment to the throttle is recomended after 4years or if it shows signs of wear. refenence from GM vauxhall germany.

Eh?



Ditto!!! Whats a "roof idle"??
I think he means 'ruff idle'
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: rustym95 on 12 October 2009, 17:37:31
the potentiometer is set to 1 on the control board, as 0 is full throttle, there is a two way resister switch when the throttle is moved  towards the right there is the opposite going the other way, as 1 is normal running and 0 is full throttle the timing is set to advanced setting, if off set causes the timing to be out on idle, the adjuster can move past closed and upset the potentiometer as the setting is being held by the potentiometer and not the stop pin, causing damage to the potentiometer.
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: TheBoy on 12 October 2009, 17:48:36
Can you provide the TIS reference to that, so I can take a look :y

Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: rustym95 on 12 October 2009, 17:52:26
its on vauxhall germany web site under engine code.
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: TheBoy on 12 October 2009, 17:52:50
Quote
Can you provide the TIS reference to that, so I can take a look :y

Keep searching and searching with different parameters on TIS, can't find any reference.  Could really use the bulletin number :)
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: TheBoy on 12 October 2009, 17:53:20
Quote
its on vauxhall germany web site under engine code.
Linky?
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: rustym95 on 12 October 2009, 17:56:15
ill try and find it again latter as just done net wipe.
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: rustym95 on 12 October 2009, 18:20:32
I cannogive you the link germay, as just found out you have to be a member and have the download on pc, but here is a link to how they work and what they do,http://www.shyauto.com/Downloads/RX0709.pdf
one comment from the page is>
Reasons for failure:
Constant throttle movement wears through the resistive wiper-tracks, the first 30 degrees
of throttle movement is the area in which most wear failures take place. This usually
results in flat spots or holes in acceleration or tick-over problems such as stalling.
Other failures are due to the environment in which the potentiometer is located; it suffers
from dirt, water and vibration damage as well as over-voltage damage due to wiring
faults.
and just one more
Caution:
The idle position of the sensor is critical. There is often a specific voltage setting that
should be checked during any engine management system check. Any wear in the
vehicle’s throttle linkage, mechanism or body will cause a misreading at the ECU, which
will result in a tick-over problem. (this is free information).
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: TheBoy on 12 October 2009, 18:31:04
Quote
I cannogive you the link germay, as just found out you have to be a member and have the download on pc, but here is a link to how they work and what they do,http://www.shyauto.com/Downloads/RX0709.pdf
one comment from the page is>
Reasons for failure:
Constant throttle movement wears through the resistive wiper-tracks, the first 30 degrees
of throttle movement is the area in which most wear failures take place. This usually
results in flat spots or holes in acceleration or tick-over problems such as stalling.
Other failures are due to the environment in which the potentiometer is located; it suffers
from dirt, water and vibration damage as well as over-voltage damage due to wiring
faults.
and just one more
Caution:
The idle position of the sensor is critical. There is often a specific voltage setting that
should be checked during any engine management system check. Any wear in the
vehicle’s throttle linkage, mechanism or body will cause a misreading at the ECU, which
will result in a tick-over problem. (this is free information).

None of that is relevant to any modern engine management system, Omega included.

The original link you can't show us, is it from WebTIS? If so, can you just provide the TIS document number so I can look it up?
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: rustym95 on 12 October 2009, 18:35:41
Quote
Quote
I cannogive you the link germay, as just found out you have to be a member and have the download on pc, but here is a link to how they work and what they do,http://www.shyauto.com/Downloads/RX0709.pdf
one comment from the page is>
Reasons for failure:
Constant throttle movement wears through the resistive wiper-tracks, the first 30 degrees
of throttle movement is the area in which most wear failures take place. This usually
results in flat spots or holes in acceleration or tick-over problems such as stalling.
Other failures are due to the environment in which the potentiometer is located; it suffers
from dirt, water and vibration damage as well as over-voltage damage due to wiring
faults.
and just one more
Caution:
The idle position of the sensor is critical. There is often a specific voltage setting that
should be checked during any engine management system check. Any wear in the
vehicle’s throttle linkage, mechanism or body will cause a misreading at the ECU, which
will result in a tick-over problem. (this is free information).

None of that is relevant to any modern engine management system, Omega included.

The original link you can't show us, is it from WebTIS? If so, can you just provide the TIS document number so I can look it up?
that is how it works i dont have tis and you know that the boy. this are fitted to every engine with an ECU just read it all.
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: TheBoy on 12 October 2009, 18:37:47
Having read the entire pdf, its sales blurb for their product.

The Omega uses the 'reverse' method of 2 pots, as resistance increaes on one, other reduces.

Wear is not an issue on the Omega (or virtually all other modern injection systems).

There is sufficient range in the sensor on Omegas so the sensor itself would never be the endstop.



Anyway, end result, the butterflies should be 100% closed on the throttle at idle, and it is incredibly rare (ie, unheard of) for these to adjust themselves, so if they are out, someone with ego exceeding talents has buggered around with it

:)
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: rustym95 on 12 October 2009, 18:37:48
oh and if you have readit will find out there is no code in ecu. so why would it be in tis.
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: TheBoy on 12 October 2009, 18:40:09
Quote
i dont have tis and you know that the boy.
If it is a GM Europe briefing, then it will be via TIS (or WebTIS if online), hence why I was after the TIS doc number :)
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: TheBoy on 12 October 2009, 18:46:09
Quote
its on vauxhall germany web site under engine code.

I'm confused now, its on Vauxhall Germany (presumably you mean Opel) website as a technical document, but not on (web)TIS so dealers will never see it  :-/, or as a public link so nobody will ever see it  :-/



Anyways, entirely irrelevant - any fault on sensor will be flagged by engine management ecu.
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: rustym95 on 12 October 2009, 18:48:29
if that the case, i give u the spec's, i dont have tis, and cannot give you the linc to GM as its an account and you have to do it your self as it is locked unless you have an account with download, and translations softwear, may not be in tis but the pdf is how they work from a maker. :)
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: TheBoy on 12 October 2009, 18:55:34
Quote
if that the case, i give u the spec's, i dont have tis, and cannot give you the linc to GM as its an account and you have to do it your self as it is locked unless you have an account with download, and translations softwear, may not be in tis but the pdf is how they work from a maker. :)
I'm not disagreeing how a TPS works.  I am disagreeing about how the TPS gets damaged by the throttle. Also, a damaged TPS throws up a code in the ecu, and brings on EML.

If you have access to that GM site (which I assume is WebTIS, as thats where all the tech info ends up), the document has an ID (either top left, or anywhere in footer area), its this ID that would prove useful :y - I can then find it myself on TIS/WebTIS
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: Robski on 12 October 2009, 18:59:36
Id take it to DLK and let him have a look :y :y
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: rustym95 on 12 October 2009, 19:16:31
the page what im on dose not have a code its just spec of parts and understanding, how they work and faults has no numbers just say update feb 2008. there is 28 pages ranging from ECU faults thats that can be missed i.e potentiometer setting, speed calculateion and on and on. coverd vectra,omega.
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: rustym95 on 12 October 2009, 19:28:16
oh and on last page it say, all the infomration in this report refers to faults and ideas from our designes personel regard to improvments and would like to thank them for brining them to our attention.
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: Entwood on 12 October 2009, 19:42:00
I know I'm a tad thick .. but how does anything on that link ...

http://www.shyauto.com/Downloads/RX0709.pdf

apply to a Vauxhall ECU ??? It is a write up for an "add on" for a  MAZDA ROTARY ENGINE ... :exclamation :exclamation :exclamation

The control of idle on a rotary engine will be so different to that on a V6 IMHO that it is not even worth thinking about.

I'll go with the guys who have been using/mending/advising on the V6 for some considerable time before an advert for a bit that doesn't even fit my car !!!!

 :D :D :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: Bent valve on 12 October 2009, 21:52:50
Quote
I know I'm a tad thick .. but how does anything on that link ...

http://www.shyauto.com/Downloads/RX0709.pdf

apply to a Vauxhall ECU ??? It is a write up for an "add on" for a  MAZDA ROTARY ENGINE ... :exclamation :exclamation :exclamation

The control of idle on a rotary engine will be so different to that on a V6 IMHO that it is not even worth thinking about.

I'll go with the guys who have been using/mending/advising on the V6 for some considerable time before an advert for a bit that doesn't even fit my car !!!!

 :D :D :D :D :D :D

Yeah!
Title: Re: OMEGA 3.0 TICK OVER HELP
Post by: rustym95 on 13 October 2009, 02:00:26
they all work in the sameway on every car,http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/307143.pdf
and a long read http://www.scribd.com/doc/413479/boscheSensors
on engine http://www.boschautoparts.co.uk/pcPetr11_3.html
http://www.opel-scan.ru/files/Opel_MotronicML4.1.pdf
http://www.dtafast.co.uk/Downloads/Wiring_Diagrams/P8%20Wiring%20Diagram.pdf
as mine is bosh so looked at bosh for you.
there are only 3 types. these are how they work only.