Omega Owners Forum
Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Jay w on 13 October 2007, 12:37:00
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The kit finally arrived this morning, it looks to be fairly comprehensive as well, the chap was good to his word, there isn't much i will need aside from tools.
Some pics
ECU & Set up disk
(http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/3691/dscf2250vi5.jpg)
Injectors and mountings
(http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/5637/dscf2251pc6.jpg)
Diagnostics
(http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/2093/dscf2254km1.jpg)
pipework
(http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/2286/dscf2253ss9.jpg)
More pipework
(http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/9468/dscf2252tr1.jpg)
Loom
(http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/5916/dscf2256va1.jpg)
Paperwork/instruction manual/LPGA regulations
(http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/866/dscf2259qz9.jpg)
the underbody pipework looks like copper with a plastic coating, comes with ends and olives
It does look pretty impressive, if there are any specific pics you would like me to get let me know
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NICE! Are you going to do a HOW2? :y
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Looking good :)
I'd be interested in the wirnig diagram if you can get it to me. See what connections it needs to Lambda sensors, etc.
Kevin
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NICE! Are you going to do a HOW2? :y
the plan is to have updates here, once it has been done i may then take the key posts and turn it into a how2, i thnk the biggest issue will be the fact that these kits can be very different, this would be more of a general guide.
Looking good
I'd be interested in the wirnig diagram if you can get it to me. See what connections it needs to Lambda sensors, etc.
Kevin
I will see if i can scan it and email it to you, pm me your details.
looking at the diagram you just break into the violet/violet,grey wire on the lambda, it looks to be constantly sensing
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Email to me too please?
Kit looks good :y
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Yes, wiring diagram to me too please!
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because of the fact that i really want to get this right first time i am taking my time over it......
The tank has not yet arrived and after spendiing last night mulling over the instuctions, spec and regulations i decided that we would mount the Vaporiser.
I had decided that underneath the airbox would be the easiest place, this means i can run the fuel lines up the chassis rail and can also use it as a guide for the water and gas hoses
took out the airbox and did a dry run, i was worred that it would be tight....and in places is it, but i believe there is enough space for everything
(http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/6977/dscf2260ml9.jpg)
(http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/9895/dscf2262ud0.jpg)
Without the airbox insitu
(http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/372/dscf2265ri0.jpg)
the tightest thing will be the fuel feed, the pipe will be run around the header tank and then down between the tank and airbox, you can see the brass part here, this is where the union will sit
(http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/8381/dscf2263tj2.jpg)
next is the hoses, i am looking at breaking into the heater hoses pictured here,
(http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/3436/dscf2261cp4.jpg)
this will mean me having to disconnect the hoses from the bulkhead and HBV, getting them off the car and then cutting them, not an easy task
not going to be able to do a lot until next weekend now, next step is to collect the spare inlet and look at getting that drilled and fitting the nozzels
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Good man
It will be working in no time...
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i didnt cut my heater pipes,i disconnected the feed for the heater from the coolant bridge and used a new piece of pipe and a joiner to connect it directly to the vapouriser, and then from the vapouriser back to the coolant bridge
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I had to adjust my airbox to fit it, the heater pipes are cut off when the heater is off, hence my choice as per the picture
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For anyone who's interested, documentation for this LPG controller is available to download:
http://www.ac.com.pl/autogaz/programy/pliki/Instruction%20of%20Stag-200,%20Stag-300%20controller.pdf
Cheers,
Kevin
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And if you want to look at a sequential setup installed, then there is still one on my drive (but not for much longer).
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And if you want to look at a sequential setup installed, then there is still one on my drive (but not for much longer).
And very sweet it sounds :y
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picked up the inlet tonight, Cheers Mark DTM, been having a look at it and decided that the nozzels will have to be mounted near the top of the trumpet, i would like to mount them as close to the bottom as possible after all that's what vauxhall did but space is a big issue.
Having a look over the LPG Omega Mark has there has given me a few more ideas as well, the water feed will be taken from the bridge, to the vaporiser and then back to the heater, minimal amount of work involved and keeps it looking as normal as possible.
Next there are about half a dozen brackets that i will have to make, started tonight by making some cardboard templates, from there they will be transferred into 16 guage metal, bent into place, drilled and then painted before final fitment
will post some more pics shortly
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there is enough room to fit the nozzles next to the original injectors(thats where mine are)
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I wish you well with this project and will be following this with interest.
A couple of questions if I may:
1. Where did you get the kit?
2. How much?
With the price of petrol now, I am seriously thinking of having a go at such a project myself.
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I think I'm right in saying it's one of these, although Jay W will no doubt confirm.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330170356040&sspage name=ADME:X:RTQ:UK:11
There's at least myself and James considering doing the same, and possibly a few more so I wonder if there's a possibility of getting a discount on a couple of kits, or at least tackling the installs together.
Kevin
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You can count me in :y
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I wish you well with this project and will be following this with interest.
A couple of questions if I may:
1. Where did you get the kit?
2. How much?
With the price of petrol now, I am seriously thinking of having a go at such a project myself.
the like that JamesV6 has posted iss the kit i have bought, remember that is only the front end though, you will need a back end kit on top of that
i spoke to the guy direct rather than going through ebay, for everything (front end kit, 70l cylinder tank, fitting kits and software) it was £700
Factor in another £100 at the most for certification and possibly 10 hours of my own time and i have made a saving over the fully installed price, granted i don't get a warranty on fitting, but i know the quality of the work that has gone ito the conversion.
I have been chatting to the guy, i have no doubt that if an order was placed by a few people for the same kit he would do something to 'sweeten the deal' if only the P&P (£35)
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I have the contact details for the chap (asked for them from his EBAY ad) as I wanted to ask him a few questions so I will give it a day or two to see if there's any more interest and then give him a call and see what's what.
He's only 40 mins drive from me, so I could collect all the bits and distribute them via the "OOF network" which might save some carriage.
What are you doing about certification, Jay w?
That's the only thing that concerns me a little. I want to end up with something that's insurable at the end of it all!
Cheers,
Kevin
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Looks like you have installed the LPG parts very well indeed infact better than my so called pro install, Which Ill be ripping out and replacing with an injection system instead of my mixer system very soon.
Top Job so far Jay :y :y
Craig
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I have the contact details for the chap (asked for them from his EBAY ad) as I wanted to ask him a few questions so I will give it a day or two to see if there's any more interest and then give him a call and see what's what.
He's only 40 mins drive from me, so I could collect all the bits and distribute them via the "OOF network" which might save some carriage.
What are you doing about certification, Jay w?
That's the only thing that concerns me a little. I want to end up with something that's insurable at the end of it all!
Cheers,
Kevin
I have the same concern Kev
the only option, is to keep shhhh to the ins companies, until it's certified, then say "it's Been converted" (DO NOT SAY DIY!!) .. and give them the cert
NO insurance company will touch you after a DIY install..
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NO insurance company will touch you after a DIY install..
This is what I thought. Hence the need, IMO, for it to be certified by someone who's happy not just to sign the certificate but, if necessary, to allow the impression to be given that he professionally installed it.
Kevin
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NO insurance company will touch you after a DIY install..
This is what I thought. Hence the need, IMO, for it to be certified by someone who's happy not just to sign the certificate but, if necessary, to allow the impression to be given that he professionally installed it.
Kevin
Yes, this is exactly what we need!!! What are the chances though?
Martin, is bernard open to bribes of such sort? ;D
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Thats rubbish an insurance company will not touch you if its a DIY as long as you have a certificate it will be fine.
My insurance never asked to see the cetificate or asked if it was installed by a company they just asked do you have a certifcate for the LPG. and that was it
Craig
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Thats rubbish an insurance company will not touch you if its a DIY as long as you have a certificate it will be fine.
My insurance never asked to see the cetificate or asked if it was installed by a company they just asked do you have a certifcate for the LPG. and that was it
Craig
Neither did mine... but try telling them you're doing a DIY install, and see their reactions ;)
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The people that certified my install on the Range Rover were based just outside Cardiff.
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Thats rubbish an insurance company will not touch you if its a DIY as long as you have a certificate it will be fine.
My insurance never asked to see the cetificate or asked if it was installed by a company they just asked do you have a certifcate for the LPG. and that was it
Craig
Neither did mine... but try telling them you're doing a DIY install, and see their reactions ;)
It should not matter if a blind monkey put the LPG system in as long as you have a Certified LPG garage to check it after and give you a certificate but fair point to make your life easier i would keep quiet also.
Craig
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I have the contact details for the chap (asked for them from his EBAY ad) as I wanted to ask him a few questions so I will give it a day or two to see if there's any more interest and then give him a call and see what's what.
He's only 40 mins drive from me, so I could collect all the bits and distribute them via the "OOF network" which might save some carriage.
What are you doing about certification, Jay w?
That's the only thing that concerns me a little. I want to end up with something that's insurable at the end of it all!
Cheers,
Kevin
I have the same concern Kev
the only option, is to keep shhhh to the ins companies, until it's certified, then say "it's Been converted" (DO NOT SAY DIY!!) .. and give them the cert
NO insurance company will touch you after a DIY install..
I just faxed them the certificate!
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NO insurance company will touch you after a DIY install..
This is what I thought. Hence the need, IMO, for it to be certified by someone who's happy not just to sign the certificate but, if necessary, to allow the impression to be given that he professionally installed it.
Kevin
Yes, this is exactly what we need!!! What are the chances though?
Martin, is bernard open to bribes of such sort? ;D
No bribes required he certifies quite a few DIY jobs
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i have spoken to my insurers before buying the kit as i didn't want to get into a position where i had a car that was uninsurable
Their view was so long as the kit is fitted by someone who is professional then there is not an issue, they do not want to see certification, i asked what they define as professional, i was expecting them to say specialist.....nope.....a qualified mechanic
result, my friend who is helping out is qualified, because he knows the quality of my work and the fact that he is helping out so much he is happy to be named on the install, i am still getting it certified though.
One question that has been posed to me: 'is this something an amature can do?'
if you sit and read the spec for fitting gas kits and are able to work within those then yes, it isn't rocket science but with the Omega i would say it requires a bit of planning and thinking about as well as a good understanding of safety. One of the things i mentioned to Mark_DTM last night was the lack of space and the additional pipes/hoses and wiring required, it can provide a few headaches.
Our next issue is the ECU, it is not a small affair and finding somewhere moderatly dry and not too hot could prove to be a bit optomistic
I have been chatting to quite a few installers, many of them are happy to certify for a fee, varies between £75 and £100
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ECU - next to pollen filter - advisable to make a mounting plate so you can get it in and out easily.
Plumbing - nothing wrong with the petrol route under the car - mounted on a chassis rail by the axle.
I can stick it on ramps and photo if needed.
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ECU - next to pollen filter - advisable to make a mounting plate so you can get it in and out easily.
Plumbing - nothing wrong with the petrol route under the car - mounted on a chassis rail by the axle.
I can stick it on ramps and photo if needed.
i was looking at the area to the left of the pollen filter, effectively the middle of the car, its a tight spot and seems to be dryish and cleanish area.
The pipework is going to be run alonside the petrol, i remember seeing yours and figured if it was good enough for petrol then it would be ok for gas as well
got a text from the wife last night 'drum has arrived and its big' ;D no love it's a tank ::)
Martin, any pics you want to post up please feel free :y
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You need to try it for size - but when you have it right make up a few mounting plates for the other OOF conversions
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You need to try it for size - but when you have it right make up a few mounting plates for the other OOF conversions
it will fit, but we are just shaping up the bracket and looking at methods of attaching it to the body, if i can get it to work nicely then i will make up a few and pass them on to others
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A plate rather than directly works best :y
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How did you secure the pipe run from back to front, Martin?
Did you drill new holes and rivet "p" clips on or did you find a way to use the existing fastenings for the new pipe?
Cheers,
Kevin
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the kit comes with a dozen P clips and self cutting screws
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Added P clips and screwed into a crease
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had one of those days where nearly everything has presented issues.
first thing i went off to friends garage to drill and tap the manifold, i knew i had to tap it to 6mm and i wanted to get them as low as possible, this meant putting them on an angle like so
(http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/7352/015hj0.jpg)
Before i had got this far i had encounted a dumb moment, i knew it had to be a 6mm threaded hole, but then grabbed a 6mm drill bit......
(http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/8059/013qw5.jpg)
Fortunately there is a machine shop next door and they will be welding up the holes i drilled in error....what a muppet, the session finished well though, all the nozzels havle beed fitted and don't foul the injectors
(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/6506/016zx2.jpg)
Having finshed that i decided to move on to the tank, this arrived a few days after the front end kit and so i haven't had a chance to check it out so first thing was a 'stock check' first thing i noticed was the tank straps have been overlooked so this means that the tank couldn't go in today, however this didnt stop me from prepping the tank and fiting the pickup/sender unit
(http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/9719/017ws5.jpg)
the instructions for the pickup/sender state that i had to fit a pipe tha would act as the 80% cut off, however this is what the unit looks like
(http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/7387/018kg5.jpg)
from the other side
(http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/5948/019rj7.jpg)
the unit has been fitted but there doesnt seem to be any way of getting the unit to lock out at 80% full.
finally decided to end the day connecting the heater hoses to the vapouriser, having spoke to a few people and looked at a few conversions i decided to take the spur off the heater bridge, this was the line into the vapouriser, the return was to go back to the HBV.
(http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/4374/dscf2268ux4.jpg)
the flow from the heater bridge to the vapouriser was easy, this was nice gentle curve, the issue was the return back to the HBV as it has a sharp 180 degree curve in order to get round this i used part of the original hose
(http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/6141/dscf2269jk8.jpg)
from there it is a case of connecting this to the return hose that comes from the vaporiser, my kit only came with T pieces so i had to use some copper piping to act as a joiner
(http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/3431/dscf2270ej4.jpg)
in order to get this far i had to strip the manifold down to this point
(http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/681/dscf2275dd7.jpg)
i would always recommend using the tissue paper in each port to stop debris dropping into the engine, sounds really silly but you would be surprise how many people dont bother.
first fit together revealed a leak on the joint with the copper pipe, so strip the plenum off and tighten the hose clips, second time round the car was run up to temp and there was no leakage, ran the car up to the fans kicking in and it all got nice and warm.
Finally decided that the black filler nozzel would stand out, decided that i would have a go at painting it, after a few coats of primer and about 5 coats of top coat it looks like this
(http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/2192/dscf2276ao2.jpg)
all in all a fair weekend, will have to pick the manifold next week after welding, next wekend i will be looking at mounting the injectors and ECU a well as doing a first fit of the tank
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Nice one, how long do you think until you can flick the switch? :)
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Currently i am only working Saturdays on the car so things are really slow >:(
i am hoping that i can get a week or so off and really steam into it, at the worse i would say another 3 or 4 weeks of Saturday onlys, with the price of pertol the sooner the better
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So where are these pipes, I can see the return in pipe, but not the other
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here's one of the flow and return at the engine end, i am getting some more today of the pipework routing
(http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/8176/dscf2271lm2.jpg)
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Slightly different to mine. But I think it does the same route
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have just driven up to nottingham tonight and noticed that the car is running about 5 degrees cooler than normal, is this normal? (82 as opposed to 87)
My only thinking was that the vapouriser is acting as a heat exchanger, any ideas
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have just driven up to nottingham tonight and noticed that the car is running about 5 degrees cooler than normal, is this normal? (82 as opposed to 87)
My only thinking was that the vapouriser is acting as a heat exchanger, any ideas
I doubt it's a cause for concern - is the vaporisor red hot to touch?
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hot yes, but not so hot that you can't get you hand within a couple of CM's of it
all the pipework is nice and hot as well
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Any chance of a schematic of the flow?
Pictures worth 1000 word in this.
Also where is the temperature sender?
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Any chance of a schematic of the flow?
Pictures worth 1000 word in this.
Also where is the temperature sender?
looks fairly obvious to me - redirected the hbv to coolant bridge pipe via the evap....
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flow from coolant bridge to vapouriser, (inlet feed)
Flow from vapouriser to HBV (outlet feed)
Temp sender in the usual place on the bridge
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flow from coolant bridge to vapouriser, (inlet feed)
Flow from vapouriser to HBV (outlet feed)
Temp sender in the usual place on the bridge
Odd. So it is in series, whereas mine in in parallel from in front of HBV to the return pipe into the engine
Did you disturb the wire?
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Any progress over the weekend?
I'm dying to know if it works, before I go any buy the same kit ;D
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Likewise :) :)
Congratulations on your progress
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got the manifold back from welding this week, that is now all built up and the wiring has been modded as per the instructions
was going to put the tank in, got it all fitted up and then realise I was missing the fitting kit for the boot....one phone call sorted that out, the tank had come direct and the supplier overlooked this, I should have one here for mid week, the guy has been spot on with queries and stuff like this
still got a way to go, still trying to find a place to hide the ECU its not a small item and with space at a premium this will be my biggest headache.
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What wiring mods have been done?
Only actual mod I had to do was the RPM feed, everything else was plugged
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What wiring mods have been done?
Only actual mod I had to do was the RPM feed, everything else was plugged
if you have a look at this PDF there is a mod that is required on the injection loom
http://www.ac.com.pl/autogaz/programy/pliki/Instruction%20of%20Stag-200,%20Stag- 300%20controller.pdf
the negative on the injection loom needs to be sliced and capped, the LPG loom has a set of connectors, one goes on the injector and the other connects to the old injector loom.
Just out of curiosity Martin were did you pick the RPM signal from?
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flow from coolant bridge to vapouriser, (inlet feed)
Flow from vapouriser to HBV (outlet feed)
Temp sender in the usual place on the bridge
Odd. So it is in series, whereas mine in in parallel from in front of HBV to the return pipe into the engine
Did you disturb the wire?
I would do it in series. Is that wrong?
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What wiring mods have been done?
Only actual mod I had to do was the RPM feed, everything else was plugged
if you have a look at this PDF there is a mod that is required on the injection loom
http://www.ac.com.pl/autogaz/programy/pliki/Instruction%20of%20Stag-200,%20Stag- 300%20controller.pdf
the negative on the injection loom needs to be sliced and capped, the LPG loom has a set of connectors, one goes on the injector and the other connects to the old injector loom.
Just out of curiosity Martin were did you pick the RPM signal from?
The green wire
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flow from coolant bridge to vapouriser, (inlet feed)
Flow from vapouriser to HBV (outlet feed)
Temp sender in the usual place on the bridge
Odd. So it is in series, whereas mine in in parallel from in front of HBV to the return pipe into the engine
Did you disturb the wire?
I would do it in series. Is that wrong?
DOn't think it really matters
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So Jay, I'm currently hovering over the "buy it now" button.... and I have the cash in the bank... shall I hit it? :-X
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So Jay, I'm currently hovering over the "buy it now" button.... and I have the cash in the bank... shall I hit it? :-X
You know you want to.
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i dont regret my purchase, Jeremy, the seller has been bang on with his help.
I dealt with him off Ebay cost all in was £700
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PM sent!
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Still sitting on the fence myself but I was going to call the guy about the possibility of a discount on a couple of kits. Haven't got round to it yet. I can do this tomorrow if you want to hang on, James?
.. and then the Westfield Sports Car Club forum organise a bulk buy of close ratio gearboxes :-*
Economical Omega or (even more) bonkers Westfield :-/
Kevin
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Still sitting on the fence myself but I was going to call the guy about the possibility of a discount on a couple of kits. Haven't got round to it yet. I can do this tomorrow if you want to hang on, James?
.. and then the Westfield Sports Car Club forum organise a bulk buy of close ratio gearboxes :-*
Economical Omega or (even more) bonkers Westfield :-/
Kevin
Kev, I can definately hang on if we can get a discount.
Are you still up for a joint install?
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i wasnt intending on dealing with someone on ebay, however the seller (jeremy) was one of the few who answered all my queries and offered more advice as well that proved to be both accurate and helpful.
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Agree Jay, he has been helpful to me too.
It would be fantastic if we can get a reduction.
Kev - don't forget I only need a front end....
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I am seriously considering such a kit - if there is a chance of a "group buy" then I would be interested.
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OK. Had a chat with Jeremy today and can echo the observations that he is a helpful chap. Talked about the possibility of a bulk buy and he said he normally does a 5% discount for the 2nd kit but if we can get more firmed up he'd see what he could do. Sounds better than nothing.
Made the mistake of opening my bonnet this evening to work out where everything will go :o
Shut it again quick! :-X
They're not far away from me so if we do go ahead I'm happy to pick the kits up and distribute or we could have a fitting party and get them all together that way. May be worth tacking one or two installs to figure everything out and then have a LPG party for those who are interested where we can gather everything we need in one place and crack on with a few?
Kevin
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Sounds good to me and I think the best way forward would be the LPG party. This would be especially beneficial for people like me who will needs lots of advice and / or help!
I guess that a "who's interested in a LPG conversion" thread should be started to gauge interest and the amount of kits that are required.
I have shown an interest in Tunnie's Elite (I have always wanted an Elite) but if this does not work out, then I will be up for this.
Out of interest, does anyone have a link for the LPG kit that we are all discussing on e-bay?
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I believe the kit is one of these:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330170356040
For the really keen here is the manual:
http://www.ac.com.pl/autogaz/programy/pliki/Instruction%20of%20Stag-200,%20Stag-300%20controller.pdf
I will start another thread for expressions of interest in a bulk buy &/OR LPG party.
Kevin
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getting the back end fitting kit is turning into a bit of a nightmare, so i have decided to look at improvising, but before i do this i would like some opinions.....
The tank is 70L the kit i ordered was supposed to be the metal fram with tank straps, now having looked at one in the past all it looks to be is a few lengths of square section tube, welded together to form the base in an oblong and some 16 guage steel that is welded to the fram and will run over the tank and bolt to the base of the frame.
I know that the tank straps cannot sit on the welds on either end of the tank but i can see any other regulations about the tank kit.
Any idea/suggestions, i want to get this kit in ASAP now as this is costing me money in fuel >:(
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ill get some nice close up photos of my tank and how its been mounted tonight for you Jay W
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:y Craig, much appreciated
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Here you go Jay W
As you can see on my photos the cap to access the fuel pump has been left so access can be gained what they did was leave out the screw on the back hole as you would never get a screw driver in.
(http://www.firedragon.com/~swamp/tank1.jpg)
(http://www.firedragon.com/~swamp/tank2.jpg)
(http://www.firedragon.com/~swamp/tank3.jpg)
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Has anyone got a copy of the rules 'n' regs for LPG installation? It'd be nice to view them before I kick anything off...
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PM Sent. Martin posted the rules a while ago and, whilst I can't find the post now, I've got it all in a text file so anyone interested - PM me your email address and I'll get a copy off to you.
Kevin
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Not sure I like the idea of the gas pipes going down the back of the tank, seems like it would make routing a little awkward...
On the donor car, they were just in front of the tank (towards the rear) on the drivers side
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I prefere them going over the back for peace of mind i know the copper pipes are never going to get bashed bent or snapped by shopping or a tool box, i should of really put tool box first ;D
I guess it would be alittle harder to route but makes no odds to me as its already in :)
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I prefere them going over the back for peace of mind i know the copper pipes are never going to get bashed bent or snapped by shopping or a tool box, i should of really put tool box first ;D
I guess it would be alittle harder to route but makes no odds to me as its already in :)
True, good points there. I'm just not sure there's room behind my tank for them now...
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Pic of injectors doesn't seem to be working - any chance of this pic? :)
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Bumpy :)
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Pic of injectors doesn't seem to be working - any chance of this pic? :)
here you go James
(http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/8320/dscf2251ad5.jpg)
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Lovely....
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Do you think this is a good kit? I can afford one now (Can also afford better, EG Romano)... but this one is looking OK..
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I've been wondering where and how to mount those :-/
Drilling and tapping the side of the plenum is the best I can think of. That will only work on a 2.6 / 3.2 due to lack of IACV and EGR.
Any ideas?
Do you think this is a good kit? I can afford one now (Can also afford better, EG Romano)... but this one is looking OK..
I've been reading the book on the ECU and it looks pretty good. Does everything I'd want it to, I think. But then I'm new to all this.
Kevin
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i've got no reason to believe it isnt a good kit, all the stuff is well made, it comes complete and so far the only issue i have had has been with the tank mounting kit.....
i ummed and ahhed about this when i bought it, my thoughs were 'why is so much cheaper than the other kits' the only answer i can come up with it that it isn't a branded kit and so it cannot command the premuim.
it comes with the same guarantee, it does the same job and on face value looks to be more complete than some of the dearer kits (some of them you have to buy the diagnostic leads as an extra and the s/ware)
For some strange reason i had another 6 cyl front end kit arrive at the house yesterday :o today i got a phone call asking if i had seen it, initially i was playing it cool and making out i wasnt too sure until the company confirmed that they has a signature and that my tank mount kit would be with me tuesday, there had been a shipping error and i had received someone elses kit.
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I've been wondering where and how to mount those :-/
Drilling and tapping the side of the plenum is the best I can think of. That will only work on a 2.6 / 3.2 due to lack of IACV and EGR.
Any ideas?
Do you think this is a good kit? I can afford one now (Can also afford better, EG Romano)... but this one is looking OK..
I've been reading the book on the ECU and it looks pretty good. Does everything I'd want it to, I think. But then I'm new to all this.
Kevin
That's the next job, get the injectors mounted, fit the new inlet with the gas nozzels tapped into it and then start on the electrics
I have made a few brackets for the injectors and will be playing round with it on the weekend, i will get some pics up.
biggest issue is still the ECU, it is massive and i am worried about it getting wet, but where the hell can i put it and it still remain accessable?
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Don't suppose there's room for the ECU under the scuttle in the power sounder type area? Have a feeling I saw some space there. It's pretty tight everywhere else in that engine bay.
How long is the loom provided with it? Will it reach into the cabin?
it does look fairly weatherproof. :-/
Kevin
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Perhaps it could be installed inside the car????
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Well I have seen them inside the airbox, but I think by the pollen filter is best comprimise
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Well I have seen them inside the airbox, but I think by the pollen filter is best comprimise
realistically how effective is the airbox once it has that stuffed in it???
Up by the pollen filter is the only place, my concern there is restricting the airflow and having to make a deflector for the water ect.
Don't suppose there's room for the ECU under the scuttle in the power sounder type area? Have a feeling I saw some space there. It's pretty tight everywhere else in that engine bay.
How long is the loom provided with it? Will it reach into the cabin?
it does look fairly weatherproof.
Kevin
the unit does look to be fairly well made, so that is one consolation, the loom is plenty long enough to allow the ecu to sit in the car, but then there is the issue of finding somewhere to put it and then having to drill the bulkhead to thread the loom.....it's a chunky beggar!!
why does a car so big have so much of a spare room issue??
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I am hoping to get my ECU in the cabin.. not sure how possible it is though..
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I would not mount the lpg ECU near the power sounder, far to many power sounders in omegas knack because water gets to them over time bcause of the drain hole there.
I think TD has his mounted in where the pollen filter is.
My Main ECU is mounted in front of the pollen filter area in he engine bay, and i need an injection emulator as its a mixer system and it in near the cars main ECU Ill get some photos of all the different bits where they are mounted, but i have it easy as my engine is a 4 pot and i have loads more spaces and room than any of the V6 guys
Craig
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Well I have seen them inside the airbox, but I think by the pollen filter is best comprimise
realistically how effective is the airbox once it has that stuffed in it???
Up by the pollen filter is the only place, my concern there is restricting the airflow and having to make a deflector for the water ect.
why does a car so big have so much of a spare room issue??
Well it was a terrible place!
Scuttle is Hobsons choice
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I would not mount the lpg ECU near the power sounder, far to many power sounders in omegas knack because water gets to them over time bcause of the drain hole there.
I think TD has his mounted in where the pollen filter is.
My Main ECU is mounted in front of the pollen filter area in he engine bay, and i need an injection emulator as its a mixer system and it in near the cars main ECU Ill get some photos of all the different bits where they are mounted, but i have it easy as my engine is a 4 pot and i have loads more spaces and room than any of the V6 guys
Craig
Yep, mine is in there......its just held in with a couple of brackets, no water deflector or anything.....doesnt seem to mind....altho brackets have gone rusty. Only downside is you have to remove ecu to replace pollen filter.
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just a few pics for reference
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2204/1948188503_59fc7d0caf_b.jpg
this is a 100 litre tank with an actual capacity of 79 litres
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2247/1948188579_69c7e3ec46_b.jpg
they call this a four hole tank (fills faster)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2120/1948188599_994d73f1e7_b.jpg
no wasted space!!!!
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2321/1948188543_fe901be984_b.jpg
ecu is in the only place available, with the pollen filter!
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clearer picture of the solenoid mounts
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2314/1948796745_c3732c34cd_b.jpg
one day i will have them off radius and powdercoat them
buried beneath the air filter one omvl vapouriser, no mods needed to the air filter housing and it just misses everything. that bracket took approx 4 hours to develope
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2179/1948796799_6444f60a32_b.jpg
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I like your injector mounts Will !
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Looking at the wiring diagram, there is only one wire for lambda sensing.... surely it needs to read data from both o2 sensors?
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Looking at the wiring diagram, there is only one wire for lambda sensing.... surely it needs to read data from both o2 sensors?
both......
the loom has provision for dual sensor cars, it was one of the queries i raised
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Looking at the wiring diagram, there is only one wire for lambda sensing.... surely it needs to read data from both o2 sensors?
both......
the loom has provision for dual sensor cars, it was one of the queries i raised
Fantastic..
What's the injector wiring mod all about then? Do you have to cut any wires or is it plug and play?
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Looking at the wiring diagram, there is only one wire for lambda sensing.... surely it needs to read data from both o2 sensors?
both......
the loom has provision for dual sensor cars, it was one of the queries i raised
Fantastic..
What's the injector wiring mod all about then? Do you have to cut any wires or is it plug and play?
one of the leads on the petrol injector loom needs to be interrupted , if you look at the wiring diagram it shows that there is a wire that should be cut, it is the common wire.
part of the LPG loom contains a set of plugs that then plug into the petrol injectors and the old injector plugs then connect to the lpg loom, i'm no expert but it looks like the ECU uses sinalling from the motronic system in order to fire the LPG injectors in the correct sequence, that's a guess mind you.
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Looking at the wiring diagram, there is only one wire for lambda sensing.... surely it needs to read data from both o2 sensors?
both......
the loom has provision for dual sensor cars, it was one of the queries i raised
Fantastic..
What's the injector wiring mod all about then? Do you have to cut any wires or is it plug and play?
one of the leads on the petrol injector loom needs to be interrupted , if you look at the wiring diagram it shows that there is a wire that should be cut, it is the common wire.
part of the LPG loom contains a set of plugs that then plug into the petrol injectors and the old injector plugs then connect to the lpg loom, i'm no expert but it looks like the ECU uses sinalling from the motronic system in order to fire the LPG injectors in the correct sequence, that's a guess mind you.
The diagram shows 6 that need to be cut..
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Looking at the wiring diagram, there is only one wire for lambda sensing.... surely it needs to read data from both o2 sensors?
both......
the loom has provision for dual sensor cars, it was one of the queries i raised
Fantastic..
What's the injector wiring mod all about then? Do you have to cut any wires or is it plug and play?
one of the leads on the petrol injector loom needs to be interrupted , if you look at the wiring diagram it shows that there is a wire that should be cut, it is the common wire.
part of the LPG loom contains a set of plugs that then plug into the petrol injectors and the old injector plugs then connect to the lpg loom, i'm no expert but it looks like the ECU uses sinalling from the motronic system in order to fire the LPG injectors in the correct sequence, that's a guess mind you.
The diagram shows 6 that need to be cut..
that's the ones, you do it on the injection loom, the kit comes with heat shrink so you can seal off the tips as well
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Will need to investigate that, I see no need to be cutting the loom if the piggy back leads are supplied :-/
What sort of drop in MPG do you anticipate?
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Additionally, the LPG filter on the diagram shows one input, one output (to the measurement tee) - but the filter has two outputs, so I'm not sure what the score is there.
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Will need to investigate that, I see no need to be cutting the loom if the piggy back leads are supplied :-/
What sort of drop in MPG do you anticipate?
i would imagine i will be looking at 25mpg, if i can get that then i will be happy, i'm currently getting 30 on a run up to nottingham....
my fuel bill is now about 120 a week, i need to reduce that asap
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Looking at the wiring diagram, there is only one wire for lambda sensing.... surely it needs to read data from both o2 sensors?
both......
the loom has provision for dual sensor cars, it was one of the queries i raised
Fantastic..
What's the injector wiring mod all about then? Do you have to cut any wires or is it plug and play?
one of the leads on the petrol injector loom needs to be interrupted , if you look at the wiring diagram it shows that there is a wire that should be cut, it is the common wire.
part of the LPG loom contains a set of plugs that then plug into the petrol injectors and the old injector plugs then connect to the lpg loom, i'm no expert but it looks like the ECU uses sinalling from the motronic system in order to fire the LPG injectors in the correct sequence, that's a guess mind you.
That is what SGI is all about
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Additionally, the LPG filter on the diagram shows one input, one output (to the measurement tee) - but the filter has two outputs, so I'm not sure what the score is there.
again the info i got from that was that the measurement tee sits on one of the lines, it doesn't need to have two of them, so the filter will be the T for the gas lines.
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Hi Jay Found you over here thanks for the tips
Tony
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Hi Jay Found you over here thanks for the tips
Tony
:y :y glad i could help
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You mentioned you were doing some more today in another thread - How did you get on today mate?
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not as well as i wanted to >:(
The plan for today was to mount the injectors and ECU as well as starring to route the loom.
Managed to find a space in the scuttle for the ecu and still be able to change the pollen filter without removing it, drilled the holes for the bracket but then found the bolt i had were too short.
then spent about 2 hours messing around with pieces of metal trying to make brackets, the drivers side of the engine i have decided not to drill/tap but use pick ups from exsisting points, the passenger side i am still not sure, the 2.5 manifold being shorter means that things are closer together and so there is less space for new additions
no matter what i did today nothing seemed to work so cold and frustrated i called it a day, i am off thurs/fri of this week so we will attack with renewed vigour
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not as well as i wanted to >:(
The plan for today was to mount the injectors and ECU as well as starring to route the loom.
Managed to find a space in the scuttle for the ecu and still be able to change the pollen filter without removing it, drilled the holes for the bracket but then found the bolt i had were too short.
then spent about 2 hours messing around with pieces of metal trying to make brackets, the drivers side of the engine i have decided not to drill/tap but use pick ups from exsisting points, the passenger side i am still not sure, the 2.5 manifold being shorter means that things are closer together and so there is less space for new additions
no matter what i did today nothing seemed to work so cold and frustrated i called it a day, i am off thurs/fri of this week so we will attack with renewed vigour
:'(
You'll get there, it's crap working on cars when it's so cold!
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right......back on the case....
I have 2 days off and need to get it done in that time, reason for not doing anthing over the weekend was i couldn't stop being sick, was very ill.
Having just been to london and back and paide nearly £100 on fuel i am on a mission, me and the car are going over to a friends garage and when it leaves it will be running LPG.
hopefully :y
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right......back on the case....
I have 2 days off and need to get it done in that time, reason for not doing anthing over the weekend was i couldn't stop being sick, was very ill.
Having just been to london and back and paide nearly £100 on fuel i am on a mission, me and the car are going over to a friends garage and when it leaves it will be running LPG.
hopefully :y
Fan, Friggin, Tastic.
Very best wishes.
If I'm lucky, and manage to fix mine fast, maybe I could come and see the kit installed on it? :)
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Best of luck ! :y :y :y :y :y :y :y :y
Ken
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does anyone know where the lambda wiring enters the engine bay....can find it for love nor money?
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does anyone know where the lambda wiring enters the engine bay....can find it for love nor money?
It follows the main engine loom from the back of the block and across the passenger side bank in the cable tray.
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update on today.....
the frame that arrived was for an 80L tank so one of the strap mounts needed repositioning, so that, and the frame went in pretty early on today, no more Sub though :'(
the tank is now connected to the filler, the loom is in. i only have 3 wires to locate and connect (lambdas and RPM signal) the ECU is by the pollen filter, as Martin has said in the past it is Hobsons choice, but it is kept dry, i just hope that it doesn't interfere with airflow too much.
the fuel guage/switch and low warning buzzer is all installed and on the centre console
Tomorrow is about finishing off the wiring, the inlet manifold will go on, injector brackets made and the injectors attached, and finally the pipe from tank to vapouriser will be fitted and that is it, if i can get the inlet and injectors on and plumbed before 12 o'clock then we have a fighting chance of getting this finished tomorrow.
pleased with the way it has gone today, my only other difficulty is finding a 9 pin serial to USB connector so i can hook the laptop up to the ECU in order to finetune, a visit to maplins first thing tomorrow may be in order
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Fantastic progress mate, you'll have that running in no time at all...
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its been a long few days and the kit is in and all connected :y
yesterday took a lot more work than i thought, i wanted to use brackets like the ones in the pic earlier in the thread, couldn't do it as i didn't have the space with the shorter 2.5 plenium >:(
by the end of yesterday i had the front end filly fitted an connected and the whole back end done as well, today was all about the underbody.....
what a nightmare >:( if i hadnt had a 4 poster it would have been a lot more difficult, i wish they had suggested using the flexihose that James was sold.
Once it was connected time to fill it up and fire it up, £23.00 to fill up, back to the garage and hit the button...........
nothing, it spluttered and died :-[
connected the laptop to the OBD and it was telling me there was only 0.40 bar pressure, i had forgotten to connect the solenoid on the tank, as soon as we did that the pressure shot up to 1.1 bar :y
however as soon as we started to run it on gas the pressure dropped again to .8 bar, it coughed spluttered and will not idle, when revved it will run badly and will not pull.
the OBD allows me to knock off sets of injectors, as soon as we knock off 2 or 3 the pressure rises again to .95 bar and it will idle a bit better but still not smoothly.
we have come to the conclusion that it is suffering from low fuel pressure, however i don't know if it is adjustable so i will have a chat with the chaps from motogas on monday and see if there are any issues they are aware of.
In one way it has been a few couple of days, in others it has been bloody hard work and now feel a little defeated
tools that you would need in order to do this.
multimeter
cone cutter
hole cutter
welder (to make the brackets)
lots of cable ties
soldering iron
the usual assortment of sockets, spanners, screwdrivers and hammers
it would help to have a long nosed 3.0 plenium, it gives you more room to mount the injectors on, the shorter ones makes things a little cramped, a second injection manifold would help as it allows you to drill and tap it whilst still keeping the car on the road
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just a few pics for reference
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2204/1948188503_59fc7d0caf_b.jpg
this is a 100 litre tank with an actual capacity of 79 litres
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2247/1948188579_69c7e3ec46_b.jpg
they call this a four hole tank (fills faster)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2120/1948188599_994d73f1e7_b.jpg
no wasted space!!!!
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2321/1948188543_fe901be984_b.jpg
ecu is in the only place available, with the pollen filter!
That is a fantastic job mate, neater than any professional one I have seen!
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however as soon as we started to run it on gas the pressure dropped again to .8 bar, it coughed spluttered and will not idle, when revved it will run badly and will not pull.
the OBD allows me to knock off sets of injectors, as soon as we knock off 2 or 3 the pressure rises again to .95 bar and it will idle a bit better but still not smoothly.
I wonder if your fuel supply line hasn't been fully purged of air yet?
I guess it won't work until you've got liquid right up to the evaporator.
Is the LPG ECU showing sensible values for the manifold pressure (0.4 bar absolute when idling I'd guess), engine RPM and petrol injector duration on all injectors (another guess - about 3 ms when idling)? Can you see the Lambda sensor signals and are they going rich or lean when on LPG?
Kevin
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however as soon as we started to run it on gas the pressure dropped again to .8 bar, it coughed spluttered and will not idle, when revved it will run badly and will not pull.
the OBD allows me to knock off sets of injectors, as soon as we knock off 2 or 3 the pressure rises again to .95 bar and it will idle a bit better but still not smoothly.
I wonder if your fuel supply line hasn't been fully purged of air yet?
I guess it won't work until you've got liquid right up to the evaporator.
Is the LPG ECU showing sensible values for the manifold pressure (0.4 bar absolute when idling I'd guess), engine RPM and petrol injector duration on all injectors (another guess - about 3 ms when idling)? Can you see the Lambda sensor signals and are they going rich or lean when on LPG?
Kevin
optimum LPG pressure is about 1 bar according to the info i have on this system, on standby (on petrol) the LPG system sits at about 1.1/1.2 bar as soon as it is switched on it drops.
Lambda readings drop off as well, the voltage drops to about .5v on petrol they are sat at about .8v
The ODB system can't give me the LPG injector durations, it gives me the voltages and they appear to be about the same as the petrol ones.
does the LPG system need purging? i was under the impression it was the same as the petrol injection system, we have had the system running on and off for about 20 mins, i would have thought it would have bled itself by now
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ANy kinks in the pipework?
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ANy kinks in the pipework?
no, we have been over the pipework this evening, the guy who did the pipework did a very good job
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does the LPG system need purging?
Don't know. Just wondered if you're only getting vapour at the evaporator and that's why it can't cope with the fuel demand of the engine. Sounds like it's going lean as soon as you switch over, which concurs with the drop in vapur pressure I guess. :-/
Is there a manual valve on the tank as well? Is that fully on?
Kevin
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does the LPG system need purging?
Don't know. Just wondered if you're only getting vapour at the evaporator and that's why it can't cope with the fuel demand of the engine. Sounds like it's going lean as soon as you switch over, which concurs with the drop in vapur pressure I guess. :-/
Is there a manual valve on the tank as well? Is that fully on?
Kevin
there is a solenoid on the inlet/outlet, it sounds like it is working (clicks on and off when the button is pressed)
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Hmm.
The vapour pressure is referenced to inlet manifold pressure as there is a vacuum connection to the reducer so depending on whether the reading you are looking at is absolute or relative to the manifold vacuum it might be normal for it to drop with the engine running. :-/
Worth trying to bump up the fuelling in the map a little to see if it sorts itself out? Or try doing an auto calibration of the LPG system?
Kevin
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Hmm.
The vapour pressure is referenced to inlet manifold pressure as there is a vacuum connection to the reducer so depending on whether the reading you are looking at is absolute or relative to the manifold vacuum it might be normal for it to drop with the engine running. :-/
Worth trying to bump up the fuelling in the map a little to see if it sorts itself out? Or try doing an auto calibration of the LPG system?
Kevin
I believe 1 bar pressure readings are absolute.
i have tried to do an auto calibration, cant get the vapouriser hot enough, the auto calibration wont kick in until the unit hits 40 degrees, the best i can get is about 32 degrees, despite the temp guage reading 90 and the fans running.
we were talking about increasing the fuelling, but if the unit is giving as much pressure as possible and that is not enough is it going to be able to supply the additional fuel?
this is where i was hoping it would be plug and play, the set up/mapping is not my strong point
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Mine gets up to 60+ and stays there once engine is warm.
try heater off if on or vise versa
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i have tried to do an auto calibration, cant get the vapouriser hot enough, the auto calibration wont kick in until the unit hits 40 degrees, the best i can get is about 32 degrees, despite the temp guage reading 90 and the fans running.
That doesn't sound right, and if the vapouriser was stone cold maybe that explains why it's starving it of fuel. Are you sure there's coolant flow through it? With it having warmed up on petrol (vaopouriser is doing no work thus extracting no heat from coolant) I'd expect it to sit pretty much at coolant temperature.
Kevin
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i have tried to do an auto calibration, cant get the vapouriser hot enough, the auto calibration wont kick in until the unit hits 40 degrees, the best i can get is about 32 degrees, despite the temp guage reading 90 and the fans running.
That doesn't sound right, and if the vapouriser was stone cold maybe that explains why it's starving it of fuel. Are you sure there's coolant flow through it? With it having warmed up on petrol (vaopouriser is doing no work thus extracting no heat from coolant) I'd expect it to sit pretty much at coolant temperature.
Kevin
it would make sense what you are saying, if it doesn't get hot then it cant vaporise the gas.
The vaporiser does get hot, but not so hot it can't be touched, i have taken the feed from the bridge and routed it back to the HBV, the cabin is nice and warm still.
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That's odd. If I'm right you've got it in series with the heater+hbv so if there was no coolant flow the heater wouldn't work :-/
How hot are the coolant pipes to the vaporiser geting? Should be too hot to hold I guess- like the top rad. pipe.
Could it be that the vapouriser is full of air and a little coolant tricking through the bottom? I've never seen one, so not sure if they have a coolant jacket around them or just a straight-through pipe. I'd suggest unbolting it and inverting it while the engine is running just to clear any air, but with the solid fuel line connected that's not so easy I guess.
Just thinking about a post you made after mounting the vapouriser that it altered the running temperature. Does make me wonder if circulation around that branch of the cooling system is not good. (temp. sensor is on the bridge so maybe related?)
I think you're tantalisingly close...
Kevin
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i will have to pop the hose off tomorrow, but yes once i had fitted the vaporise unit the temp did seem to drop a bit, however recently i have noticed it has been running hot, currently it gets to 90 degrees the fans kick in and then the temp goes back to 82 degrees, once the fans finish then the temp is off skyward again......
it's due for a flush tomorrow....
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Does sound to me like there could be an airlock somewhere.
Might be worth running a garden hose through the vapouriser section of coolant plumbing just to make sure it's flowing freely. That might blast a bit of air out too.
Kevin
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All of the above posts make sense - the vaporisor should be too hot to touch. Might make me think about my coolant routing.
Just to play devils advocate though -
LPG cars I have had before (Range rover- mixer, Veccy SGI) have all fired up, and flicked straight over to LPG from stone cold :-/
The ad for the kit we have, also states "Start on gas".
32deg isn't good enough for a running temp in the vaporisor, but I'd have considered it's enough to make it run OK (when it's calibrated).
Might be worth having a word with Jeremy?
Out of interest, did you determine if there was a need to drill your fuel nozzles?
One of the guys from Nots who did a DIY LPG SGI, found that his car wouldn't run well because the injectors needed to be wider.
It does sound as if it needs "calibrating" or setting up, and if the software won't let you do that below 60deg, then you won't be able to do it. Stick the temp sensor wires on the CTS to temporarily fool it? ::)
Other than that, it could be that there's not enough gas getting to the front - either a kink in the pipe (doubt, as you say it's a good job) - or the tank valve not letting enough gas out. There should definately be a manual shut off valve for gas, on the tank.
Hope you get it sorted mate.
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right have doen a coolant change, there is a high rate of flow through the vaporiser.
one thing i noticed the vaporiser never gets above 37degrees, but yet the LPG tep will go as high as 50 degrees, surely the vapouriser heats the LPG? if this is the case then surely the vapouriser temp will be higher than the LPG temp.
I have a feeling that the temp sensor is faulty, it is beggining to get me down.
I didn't drill out the nozzels, naively i presumed that the nozzels supplied would be right for the car, we had discussed the output of the engine before i bought the kit, at the least i would have though they would have advised that it needed doing.
i'm at the point of giving up, i have inversted so much time in this and still we are no closer to getting it completed, i have not spent any time on the business or with the family, they are getting narked and rightly so.......
it's either a gallon of petrol and a match or autotrader, i am that pi$$ed off with it
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Why not log into the Yahoo LPG forum, http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/lp-gas/ and post a few queries there ?. The famous Bernard chap, who is very helpfull is on there. He advised me a couple of times. I think drilling out the nozzles is only if there's not enough gas getting into the engine at high revs, the standard nozzles should work over most of the reve range. To my inexperienced eye, it sounds as if there is something basically wrong, eg the vapouriser not heating up enough, or not letting enough through, or the solenoids cutting off short, or something like that. The LPG forum should beable to provide some answers. Or, you have got nearly all the way there, how about finding a GOOD Lpg place to fix it and certify it at the same time.
Best of Luck
Ken
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I have logged on to the yahoo site I am awaiting approval.
the problem around here is finding someone who is good.....they are all cowboys and no one is able to certify in plymouth.
it is pointing more and more to a faulty temp sender on the vapouriser but how this would affect fuel pressure I will never know
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I'm kind of leaning toward the vapouriser not having the flow thro. From http://www.go-lpg.co.uk/hints.html "If your engine splutters or stops whilst on LPG in cold or damp conditions, open the bonnet as soon as possible and feel the vaporiser's body with your hand. As a general rule, if it isn't so hot that you cannot comfortably hold a hand on it for more than a few seconds, it is not getting hot enough to work properly." It will be a bit cooler than the pipe feeding in the water, because the action of evapourating the liquid will cool the water a bit, but ..........
Ken
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the vapouriser is getting very hot, too hot to touch for any length of time..
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Don't suppose the LPG and vapouriser temperature sensors are wired wrongly (swapped over?)
Don't even know if this is possible - are they both on or near the vapouriser?
The poor running could then just be down to it not having calibrated.
Kevin
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the connectors are differen, one a square and the other round.....
We have had more limited sucsess tonight, but still not finished >:(
we have been unsure about the lambda wiring, brown with a blue tracer, however when you look at the wiring coming out of the ECU you will see at least 4 brown/blue, some of them are 12V the others are less than 1V....none of these are the lambda wiring it seems >:(
Lambda wiring is shielded once it comes out of the ECU, we have now got the LPG kit reading the Lambdas correctly now, however i have the EML on with the following codes: 12, 37, 38, 98, 17
The engine still runs like a dog on LPG, on petrol it is fine and sweet (aside from the EML)
the Vaporiser temp is still at least 50 degrees less than the engine temp, i know that LPG will cause some temp loss, as will the airflow around the vapouriser, but 50 degrees!!!
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Spoke to the guys who supplied me the kit today......i must say they cannot do enough to help out.
The nozzels DO need drilling, however it is the nozzels on the injectors not the ones in the manifold, so this has saved me some work.
They need to be drilled to 2.5mm.
the heat issues is being referred to their technical support dept as they are a s bit miffed by this, but they have said that it doesn't sound right.
I have to wait until the weekend now as i am in Epsom and have no garage facilities to sort out the car.
The more pressing issue is the EML light, its still on and now she only averages 22MPG :o :o, plymouth to london (205 miles) on a tank of fuel, this is killing me.
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I don't know what those codes refer to but what immediately springs to mind is that maybe the connections to the Lambda sensors are disturbing their operation on petrol and it's running rich. Maybe worth removing them for now?
Otherwise, could be that it got the hump about something when it was running badly on LPG and the faults are not actually present on petrol.
Kevin
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Engine Management Lamp or Emissions Lamp?
If Emissions lamp is it flashing or permanently lit?
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A quick google revealed this: No idea how accurate :-/
12 Initiation of diagnosis
37 Fault code light low voltage
38 Oxygen sensor voltage low
98 Oxygen sensor wiring break / open circuit
17 Knock sensor 2 No change in voltage
Looks like one of the O2 sensors and one of the knock sensors are not happy. I guess this could have invoked a "safe" ignition timing hence the poor economy.
Kevin
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Reckon 98 is the code to take note of, double scheck the wiring where the link was made for the LPG and at the LPG ECU end.
....Well I'm guessing!
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Reckon 98 is the code to take note of, double scheck the wiring where the link was made for the LPG and at the LPG ECU end.
....Well I'm guessing!
I didn't cut the wire, the shielding was bared back, the new wire soldered on and then heat wrap attached, it all looks good and solid
i reckon we have killed a Lambda, it was running for a few mins on gas, tried to accelarate and the light came on, since then she has run rough on petrol, when you put your foot down it misses, cough splutters and runs a bit naff.....
The knock sensor could have been invoked when it was running lean on one of the earlier attempts, could this be a 'stored code' or are these in order of issue with the last one being the one that is giving the biggest grief?
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i reckon we have killed a Lambda
Make sure you've got the LPG ECU configured for narrow band (voltage) lambda inputs not wideband.
The knock sensor could have been invoked when it was running lean
It's unlikely unless you were driving it under load I'd say. The error code hints more at an "I'm getting no signal from the knock sensor" rather than "your engine is knocking" but they don't always mean what you'd expect. Can anyone expand on these codes?
Kevin
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i reckon we have killed a Lambda
Make sure you've got the LPG ECU configured for narrow band (voltage) lambda inputs not wideband.
The knock sensor could have been invoked when it was running lean
It's unlikely unless you were driving it under load I'd say. The error code hints more at an "I'm getting no signal from the knock sensor" rather than "your engine is knocking" but they don't always mean what you'd expect. Can anyone expand on these codes?
Kevin
yes we have it configured so as it is one wire per lambda, had i connected both to the same lambda it would have been setting it up as a wideband unit....hope that makes sense
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The only sensors with screend wires I know of are the knock sensors, will double check the wire colours and pin outs tonight if I get chance.
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The Lambda cables are four core unshielded on mine (four lambda's on a 3.2). Not sure what the 2.5's have.
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Heres the schematic
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b394/Marks_DTM_Calib/S_11_13-1.jpg)
Lambda sensors are screened and goto the following ECU pins:
1-3-5 Bank - Pin 28 - Brown Blue
2-4-6 Bank - Pin 47 - Brown Blue
I need to check some other info on the knock sensors.....I wonder if you have inadvertantly connected into a knock sensor wire.
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Mark,
I presume they are only shielded within the engine bay loom then, because the lambda connection at the exhaust to the connector to the loom isn't.
Guess it'd make sense to shield it in the engine bay where it's susceptable to noise.
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here's how we found the wires:
located pins 28 and 47, stripped the plastic cover off the back of the ECU connector, confirmed they were brown with blue tracers.
continuity checked the pins until we found the correct wire, then did a voltage check to check for signal, on average there was one adjustment every second and the two of them were giving similar readings.
stripped the shielding, soldered the LPG wires to the lambda wires taking care not to allow the shieling to contact the wire, then heat shielded the solder and then finish with a small amouth of insulation tape as a belt and braces.
once we fired it up initially the EML light was out, it wasn't until we tried to rev the engine that it came one and stayed on.
what we have now is a misfire situation, every now and again the car will run fine and will really fly along, then it will falter, similar symptoms to dispack, it will stutter, sound like it is running on 3or 4 and then clear and shoot off again, if you try and floor it whlist it is faltering it will almost suffer all the symptoms of overfuelling, let your foot off the throttle and it will sometimes clear
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Couple of thoughts.... (as I understand it so take it with a pinch of salt!)
Lambda light wouldn't come on (unless on from last time engine run) during the warm up period, I think until the CTS reports something like 62 degrees it's classed as a cold start.
Is it possible that the Dis Pack / connections have been disturbed? When my Emissions lamp is on it doesn't affect the performance or economy of the car and it certainly doesn't retard the ignition.
I think the rich / lean voltages are too fast to see on a meter or most diag equipment, only real test is with an osciloscope. What you see / read on most equipment is over a longer time base.
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Couple of thoughts.... (as I understand it so take it with a pinch of salt!)
Lambda light wouldn't come on (unless on from last time engine run) during the warm up period, I think until the CTS reports something like 62 degrees it's classed as a cold start.
Is it possible that the Dis Pack / connections have been disturbed? When my Emissions lamp is on it doesn't affect the performance or economy of the car and it certainly doesn't retard the ignition.
I think the rich / lean voltages are too fast to see on a meter or most diag equipment, only real test is with an osciloscope. What you see / read on most equipment is over a longer time base.
I'll take your word on the preheat on the lambdas, i have little experience of them.
dispack wasn't disturbed at all last night, we were not near the connections
part of the OBD kit with the LPG kit is an osciloscope, initially we were using a multimeter but used that as a back up to confirm.
this is going to be a series of elimination in order to get to the bottom of it
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I'll take your word on the preheat on the lambdas, i have little experience of them.
this is going to be a series of elimination in order to get to the bottom of it
Actually the lambdas heat the CAT as well AFAIK, On diags the CAT heaters should go off when the sensor reads the temp as hot enough....
I think that's why the Lambdas have four wires.
You'll get it sorted soon mate, especially when you get some decent advice rather than my drivel!!!!
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I'll take your word on the preheat on the lambdas, i have little experience of them.
this is going to be a series of elimination in order to get to the bottom of it
Actually the lambdas heat the CAT as well AFAIK, On diags the CAT heaters should go off when the sensor reads the temp as hot enough....
I think that's why the Lambdas have four wires.
You'll get it sorted soon mate, especially when you get some decent advice rather than my drivel!!!!
not drivel mate, just assisting with the elimination process
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well the old girl is getting worse by the seems of it, and time is not on my side so to a small degree i am going to have to admit defeat.
disconnected the ECU tonight, reset it and then read the codes, same as before, so it would seem that we are looking at a knock sensor and possibly a lambda, in addition i need to be sure that the LPG kit is wired into the right pick ups and the nozzels need drilling out.
all of this may not seem like a lot but i only have saturday morning in which to do it, i have still to get the car back from Epsom to Plymouth on Friday evening after work, it is then going to a friends garage for the following week, i am getting a rental and he is dealing with the issues.
It's not the ideal solution but i have spent no time with the family recently, i cannot get to the bottom of this wiring and i am tired of heading down blind alleys, i just want the car done and running on gas
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Could always pop in and see JamesV6CDX and myself on the way back as we'll be tackling his install this weekend. It's on the way from Epsom to Plymouth (pretty much). A few more heads under the bonnet may spot something...
Kevin
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if i can i will, but my worry it that it could be coming home on the back of an AA wagon :( she is running very rough, has little accelaration and i am concerned it will be chucking crap into the cat and causing more cost)......
i will PM you nearer the end of the week if i can make it, thanks for the offer :y
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It's running rough on petrol now?
Oh lordy... I hope we don't kill my Lambda!
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It's running rough on petrol now?
Oh lordy... I hope we don't kill my Lambda!
yep, you have to introduce power otherwise it bogs down and runs very rich.
i have a feeling that because we didn't drill the nozzels we ran it too weak and killed the lambda, hence the issues
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It's running rough on petrol now?
Oh lordy... I hope we don't kill my Lambda!
yep, you have to introduce power otherwise it bogs down and runs very rich.
i have a feeling that because we didn't drill the nozzels we ran it too weak and killed the lambda, hence the issues
Which ones need drilling? The ones in the injectors, or the ones in the manifold? What do they need to be sized out to?
Cheers
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Would running lean kill a lambda? As far as I know, it's only a sensor, to sense the gasses...?
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It's running rough on petrol now?
Oh lordy... I hope we don't kill my Lambda!
yep, you have to introduce power otherwise it bogs down and runs very rich.
i have a feeling that because we didn't drill the nozzels we ran it too weak and killed the lambda, hence the issues
Which ones need drilling? The ones in the injectors, or the ones in the manifold? What do they need to be sized out to?
Cheers
the ones on the injectors, they need taking out to 2.5mm for the BHP output we have, if you put the 3.0 cams in remember to recalculate and possibly redrill
i am a bit annoyed with Jeremy about this, i asked what work was required and by his own admission he had over looked it, it's as much my fault as i should have questioned it when i read the manual
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Would running lean kill a lambda? As far as I know, it's only a sensor, to sense the gasses...?
but if we have leaned it off too much and it has heated up badly then i was under the impression it could be damaged
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Would running lean kill a lambda? As far as I know, it's only a sensor, to sense the gasses...?
but if we have leaned it off too much and it has heated up badly then i was under the impression it could be damaged
I very much doubt running lean could have killed the Lambda sensor. I still suspect a wiring issue.
Unless it was driven hard with a lean mixture (not something to do until you're sure the engine is tuned perfectly), in which case the Lambda sensor could have been subjected to too high a temperature, I'm sure the problem lies elsewhere.
Kevin
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You say you have not drilled your injector nozzles yet?
I have just looked at mine, and I can see why they need drilling out. At the moment, they are little more than a pin hole, no way will enough gas get down there to run the V6....
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You say you have not drilled your injector nozzles yet?
I have just looked at mine, and I can see why they need drilling out. At the moment, they are little more than a pin hole, no way will enough gas get down there to run the V6....
no, mine need drilling.
currently they are 1mm and need boring out to 2.5 for 170 bhp TBH i didnt take much notice of them, i was looking at the nozzels in the manifold :-[
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You say you have not drilled your injector nozzles yet?
I have just looked at mine, and I can see why they need drilling out. At the moment, they are little more than a pin hole, no way will enough gas get down there to run the V6....
no, mine need drilling.
currently they are 1mm and need boring out to 2.5 for 170 bhp TBH i didnt take much notice of them, i was looking at the nozzels in the manifold :-[
Do you think this could be your problem?
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You say you have not drilled your injector nozzles yet?
I have just looked at mine, and I can see why they need drilling out. At the moment, they are little more than a pin hole, no way will enough gas get down there to run the V6....
no, mine need drilling.
currently they are 1mm and need boring out to 2.5 for 170 bhp TBH i didnt take much notice of them, i was looking at the nozzels in the manifold :-[
Do you think this could be your problem?
one of them, yes,
i cant run auto calibration because the vapouriser will not get to 50 degrees according to the sensor, althouggh it is wayyyy to hot to hold for any length of time.
once these are sorted then it will be up and running on gas
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Is the vapouriser temperature sensor integrated into the unit or a screw-in device like a gauge sensor?
Just thinking we can maybe compare resistance readings with JV6CDX's one?
We can also substitute resistances to force it to read a sensible value, which might get you up and running. You'd have to change over to gas manually or else it would try to do it on a stone cold engine but otherwise it might help.
Kevin
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Is the vapouriser temperature sensor integrated into the unit or a screw-in device like a gauge sensor?
Just thinking we can maybe compare resistance readings with JV6CDX's one?
We can also substitute resistances to force it to read a sensible value, which might get you up and running. You'd have to change over to gas manually or else it would try to do it on a stone cold engine but otherwise it might help.
Kevin
the temp sensor sits on the body of the vapouriser, it is nothing more than a thermister.
Tylor (Jeremy's tech guy) is sending me a spare one in the post so we have that as a fall back, one thing he has commented on is that the OBD system automatically chooses the sensors, it can sometimes get those wrong and they can give false readings.
once the vapouriser is at 50 degrees you can run autocalibration and it will mirror the petrol injection settings so in theory there should be no noticable difference between petrol and LPG, he said it can be done manually but it is not as accurate as you have to set up lots of points on the map
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Yes, I've been reading the manual. No way to manually change the sensor settings?
I'd be intrigued to know how the auto calibration sets the map for the higher pulse widths as that would require the engine to be under load (and it would be open-loop, so no way to tell if it's rich or lean). I assume it's an educated guess.
Anyway, first things first. Out with the 2.5mm drill bit.
Kevin
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I installed the Stag-300 software and had a play with it this evening.
I discovered that :
a) The instruction manual is a bit sparse and it's not immediately apparent what's going on.
b) If you go the the settings page there are configuration options for both the temperature and pressure sensors with a good number of options for each.
I'm wondering if the temperature sensor is selected wrongly and this is why the vapouriser temperature is reading incorrectly and, possibly, the pressure sensor could also be wrong explaining why the pressure reading drops so drastically on gas.
Combined with the small nozzle diameter this might explain what's wrong.
There is a table of nozzle diameter against engine power per cylinder however the power iunits are "KM". I wonder if this means kilowatts or BHP :-/
If BHP, then 2.5mm seems to tally with the output of a 2.5 V6 however they really need to match the petrol injector flow rate rather than engine output, I suspect (to give as close as possible a 1:1 mapping of injector durations).
Let's see what the weekend brings.
Kevin
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Let's see what the weekend brings.
Kevin
Hopefully, a nicely working LPG install on my CDX, and a few sore heads 8-)
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I installed the Stag-300 software and had a play with it this evening.
I discovered that :
a) The instruction manual is a bit sparse and it's not immediately apparent what's going on.
b) If you go the the settings page there are configuration options for both the temperature and pressure sensors with a good number of options for each.
I'm wondering if the temperature sensor is selected wrongly and this is why the vapouriser temperature is reading incorrectly and, possibly, the pressure sensor could also be wrong explaining why the pressure reading drops so drastically on gas.
Combined with the small nozzle diameter this might explain what's wrong.
There is a table of nozzle diameter against engine power per cylinder however the power iunits are "KM". I wonder if this means kilowatts or BHP :-/
If BHP, then 2.5mm seems to tally with the output of a 2.5 V6 however they really need to match the petrol injector flow rate rather than engine output, I suspect (to give as close as possible a 1:1 mapping of injector durations).
Let's see what the weekend brings.
Kevin
this is what i have to chack on the weekend, i am sure the correct sensors are selected, but as you say there are a few options there.
KM=kilowatts, Jeremy confirmed that it was 2.5mm i had worked it out to be 2.3mm 170bhp divded by 4 = 42.5 per cylinder, 1KW is about 3/4 of a BHP = 31kw.
you can change the duration that the injectors are open, Tylor has advised be that if i want to set them up manually then take a note of the milliseconds the petrol injectors are open of on idle and use that as a base to set the LPG injectors up, and then do it on partial throttle and then on WOT.....
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KM=kilowatts, Jeremy confirmed that it was 2.5mm i had worked it out to be 2.3mm 170bhp divded by 4 = 42.5 per cylinder, 1KW is about 3/4 of a BHP = 31kw.
Or even 6?
:y
Kevin
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KM=kilowatts, Jeremy confirmed that it was 2.5mm i had worked it out to be 2.3mm 170bhp divded by 4 = 42.5 per cylinder, 1KW is about 3/4 of a BHP = 31kw.
Or even 6?
:y
Kevin
doh!!!!!!
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finally managed to get her home tonight, what a trip....never again!!!!
Chronic misfire on anything aside from light throttle, in order to build up speed i had to use the gearbox almost manually, and climibing hills required a lot of forward thinking, if anyone got in my way it buggered up my progress, it will not rev much past 4500rpm and has developed a thirst (21mpg)
at the least we have a knock sensor that is down, and we still believe a lambda may be faulty, she is staying at my friends garage this week and all the issues are being dealt with from there we can get back to finishing off the LPG kit
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Bad luck Jay. It will all be worth it in the end. Hope it all works out for the best for you mate. :y
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Any news on progress, Jay?
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chatting to the garage this morning, the crank sensor and one of the knock sensors had given up the ghost, hence all my issues last week.
The nozzels have been drilled, this weekend i will be running the auto calibration on it and looking to do a proper set up on it.
Just one question James, we have noticed that the lambda wires on the LPG loom seem to be a different guage. I have a purple and then a pinky/purple, now one of them is considerably thicker than the other, was that something that you founf on your install or were they both the same guage?
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Glad there appears to be light at the end of the tunnel. Real bad luck that they decide to die at the same time >:(
I'm guessing their cables had got a bit fragile with the heat and got disturbed during the install?
I don't remember the Lambda wires (we're talking about the ones on the LPG loom?) being different gauge but the colours ring a bell. One probably got made up with the wrong gauge cable :-/
I found if you take off the cover from the ECU connector you can run the wires down through the engine loom, into the connector and you can just solder them to the very top of the pins on the ECU connector.
Kevin
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Oh, and I'll send you that file with James' settings tonight. I can't look at them without the ECU connected, or so it would seem, but I can send you the file. In fact, given that yours is also a 2.5 on 2.5mm gas nozzles, the fuelling should be set up pretty darn close.
Kevin
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Good idea Kevin, my fuelling I rekon is very close...
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Oh, and I'll send you that file with James' settings tonight. I can't look at them without the ECU connected, or so it would seem, but I can send you the file. In fact, given that yours is also a 2.5 on 2.5mm gas nozzles, the fuelling should be set up pretty darn close.
Kevin
:y :y thanks for the info, we have a feeling that they have used a different guage when they put the loom together
Auto sparkey doesnt feel that this will be an issue as the thinner guage cable is man enough for the job
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Regarding the fuelling, the auto calibration claimed James' nozzles were too big at 2.5mm but we ignored this. Injector duration was slightly shorter than for petrol at idle but we found it needs a lot more fuel in the map at higher durations when manually mapped, so this is no bad thing. It was just popping up an "injectors full open" warning when revved to 6k, but the fuel mix was staying rich so not a real issue.
Kevin
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Regarding the fuelling, the auto calibration claimed James' nozzles were too big at 2.5mm but we ignored this. Injector duration was slightly shorter than for petrol at idle but we found it needs a lot more fuel in the map at higher durations when manually mapped, so this is no bad thing. It was just popping up an "injectors full open" warning when revved to 6k, but the fuel mix was staying rich so not a real issue.
Kevin
Problem with Romano kit is when injectors are full open it drops to petrol rather than remains full open.
AGWW recommended shortening the duration - mine is about same as petrol duration but I am sure it is a bit weak.
If I up the pressure I could lock the injectors as they lock at just under 3 bar.
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Problem with Romano kit is when injectors are full open it drops to petrol rather than remains full open.
AGWW recommended shortening the duration - mine is about same as petrol duration but I am sure it is a bit weak.
If I up the pressure I could lock the injectors as they lock at just under 3 bar.
Going lean at full revs and full throttle is not a good place to be. I'd be a bit wary of taking fuel out. Certainly monitor the Lambdas and make sure they stay pegged firmly on rich throughout the whole rev range at full throttle.
The problem with running out of injector flow is that, even if it didn't go lean when you were tuning it, if additional fuel is required for some reason (say intake temperature is lower, gas pressure drops, baro pressure is higher, etc) there's nothing else to give and it will go lean.
What gas pressure do you currently run? James' is 1 bar. I guess tweaking it up a little is an option, as long as there are no signs of problems with running out of reolution at the low end. Lambda signals were bobbing up and down nicely at idle?
Kevin
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No laptop to monitor but AFAIR about 1.5 bar
I think I need to lambda monitor
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well the saga unfolds.........
halfway through running auto set up the it fails and wont sustain low idle and will not continue.
in addition we have a number of fault codes that are behaving wierd. here is the situation
car will bring up one fault code at a time, as soon as we clear one, another one appear, they rotate between
Knock sensor, camshaft sensor, crank sensor.
only one of the codes will appear at any one time, you will never get more than any one at a time, as soon as we clear one another one will arrive after a period of time.
There is also a low level misfire floor the throttle and it will splutter until it gets past 2000rpm......
any ideas, this is now bugging the hell out of us now
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Does it now run OK on petrol without fault codes appearing?
At idle, on petrol, fully warmed up, what does the LPG ECU say? RPM being reported correctly? Lambda sensor signals both cycling between around 0.2 and 0.8 volts? Injector durations roughly the same and, at a guess about 3ms for each cylinder? Battery voltage plausible? Manifold pressure around 0.3 bar? Temperatures (vapouriser and LPG) reading OK?
Just remembered we had to change the injector configuration to 1 ohm injectors on James' install. Have a look on the side of the coil of your gas injectors and see if they are 1 ohm jobs. System defaulted to 3 ohm.
We had a strange issue with the controller software during one of our calibration attemps. It appeared to lock up and left the engine running with an odd combination of a couple of cylinders on petrol and a couple on lpg. Restarted the software, restarted the car and tried again and it was fine.
Might be worth switching to LPG and setting all the cylinders back to petrol using the little switch icons on the lower right hand side of the screen. Then switch one pot at a time to LPG and see if any or all cause running issues.
.. and I'll send that configuration file to you in a minute :y
Kevin
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Does it now run OK on petrol without fault codes appearing?
At idle, on petrol, fully warmed up, what does the LPG ECU say? RPM being reported correctly? Lambda sensor signals both cycling between around 0.2 and 0.8 volts? Injector durations roughly the same and, at a guess about 3ms for each cylinder? Battery voltage plausible? Manifold pressure around 0.3 bar? Temperatures (vapouriser and LPG) reading OK?
Just remembered we had to change the injector configuration to 1 ohm injectors on James' install. Have a look on the side of the coil of your gas injectors and see if they are 1 ohm jobs. System defaulted to 3 ohm.
We had a strange issue with the controller software during one of our calibration attemps. It appeared to lock up and left the engine running with an odd combination of a couple of cylinders on petrol and a couple on lpg. Restarted the software, restarted the car and tried again and it was fine.
Might be worth switching to LPG and setting all the cylinders back to petrol using the little switch icons on the lower right hand side of the screen. Then switch one pot at a time to LPG and see if any or all cause running issues.
.. and I'll send that configuration file to you in a minute :y
Kevin
these fault codes are cycling whist on petrol.....
RPM is correct and the lambdas are right
We have get it running on LPG, it idles and will pull through a lot of the rev range, if the throttle is opened quickly then it will stutter and faulter then revert back to petrol, it is clear that it is not configured correctly yet though.
i am going over to the garage tomorrow and will be going through the system to make sure everything is in order.....
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Sounds like you need to get the issues on petrol sorted first :(
One other thought. I don't suppose you've got some of the injectors crossed over on the piggyback loom?
Also, did you wire them according to cylinder numbers or as grouped on the LPG loom?
We grouped them as on the lpg loom, one branch of the loom to each bank:
LPG loom number Cylinder number
1 1
2 3
3 5
4 2
5 4
6 6
As long as the same numbers are feeding the same cylinders and that number is fed from the petrol injector plug for that cylinder it should be OK but you never know. It would be easy to get them crossed due to the shape of the intake manifold.
Your observations on LPG sound about right. I had to add a lot of extra fuel to James' car in the mid range to get it to run ok.
EMail sent with his final settings :y
Kevin
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Regarding the fuelling, the auto calibration claimed James' nozzles were too big at 2.5mm but we ignored this. Injector duration was slightly shorter than for petrol at idle but we found it needs a lot more fuel in the map at higher durations when manually mapped, so this is no bad thing. It was just popping up an "injectors full open" warning when revved to 6k, but the fuel mix was staying rich so not a real issue.
Kevin
Problem with Romano kit is when injectors are full open it drops to petrol rather than remains full open.
AGWW recommended shortening the duration - mine is about same as petrol duration but I am sure it is a bit weak.
If I up the pressure I could lock the injectors as they lock at just under 3 bar.
You still have that problem Martin??
You've the same system as mine as I think? Altho i remember your cylinders are fed from a central point......mine are fed from a rail, but just maybe coz yours is v6, mines a 4pot
I did have the same prob at motorway speeds......floor it and it switched back to petrol.....and couldnt get it back on gas until the pressure dropped in the rail......which either meant leaving it for several hours or disconnect a gas pipe on the rail to let the pressure out. Mine was fixed by a firmware update on the lpg ecu.......you sure your running the latest firmware? :-/
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Regarding the fuelling, the auto calibration claimed James' nozzles were too big at 2.5mm but we ignored this. Injector duration was slightly shorter than for petrol at idle but we found it needs a lot more fuel in the map at higher durations when manually mapped, so this is no bad thing. It was just popping up an "injectors full open" warning when revved to 6k, but the fuel mix was staying rich so not a real issue.
Kevin
Problem with Romano kit is when injectors are full open it drops to petrol rather than remains full open.
AGWW recommended shortening the duration - mine is about same as petrol duration but I am sure it is a bit weak.
If I up the pressure I could lock the injectors as they lock at just under 3 bar.
You still have that problem Martin??
You've the same system as mine as I think? Altho i remember your cylinders are fed from a central point......mine are fed from a rail, but just maybe coz yours is v6, mines a 4pot
I did have the same prob at motorway speeds......floor it and it switched back to petrol.....and couldnt get it back on gas until the pressure dropped in the rail......which either meant leaving it for several hours or disconnect a gas pipe on the rail to let the pressure out. Mine was fixed by a firmware update on the lpg ecu.......you sure your running the latest firmware? :-/
I need the use of a lap top to update, but I haven't had an over pressure for about a year, but I know it runs a bit lean at high revs
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Sounds like you need to get the issues on petrol sorted first :(
One other thought. I don't suppose you've got some of the injectors crossed over on the piggyback loom?
Also, did you wire them according to cylinder numbers or as grouped on the LPG loom?
We grouped them as on the lpg loom, one branch of the loom to each bank:
LPG loom number Cylinder number
1 1
2 3
3 5
4 2
5 4
6 6
As long as the same numbers are feeding the same cylinders and that number is fed from the petrol injector plug for that cylinder it should be OK but you never know. It would be easy to get them crossed due to the shape of the intake manifold.
Your observations on LPG sound about right. I had to add a lot of extra fuel to James' car in the mid range to get it to run ok.
EMail sent with his final settings :y
Kevin
cheers for the settings :y
when i set up the loom i connected it number for number so 1 is on 1 and 2 on 2, so on
and the LPG injectors have been wired up the same way as well.
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when i set up the loom i connected it number for number so 1 is on 1 and 2 on 2, so on
I don't think there'll be a problem with that, as each cylinder is handled individually by the LPG ecu, as long as each cylinder is wired up to the same number in all 3 cases. Might be something to try if all else fails though :-/
Kevin
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I don't believe all those sensors have failed at once, there is a wiring issue, or a red herring...
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I don't believe all those sensors have failed at once, there is a wiring issue, or a red herring...
it has to be a wiring or ECU issue as it only brings up one of the faults at a time, never multple faults at the same time.......
TBH i am getting to the end of my teather with it, if i cant get it sorted before long then i will pull the lpg kit out and sell it and move on
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You need to let Kevin and I have a look at it together, before you do that... along with a code resetter...
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You need to let Kevin and I have a look at it together, before you do that... along with a code resetter...
we are using a system called Launch, it is a really good reader, although not as good as something like Tech2 though......
i might yet take you up on that
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This must be a wiring issue. I'm damned if I can think how it's come about but, when running on petrol, the LPG system is just looping the injector signals through to the petrol injectors to which they were originally connected. Tapping into the RPM and 2 Lambda signals shouldn't be an issue.
I think if the checks we've already discussed don't bear fruit I'd be inclined to try disconnecting these 3 signals from the LPG system and removing the plenum and reconnecting the injector signals to the correct injectors. Let's try and get it back to running properly on petrol. If that's OK, something has gone wrong with fitting the LPG electrics.
What are the specific cam and knock sensor fault codes? Open / short circuit or incorrrect signals?
Don't discount the possibility, however remote, that the LPG system's loom is incorrectly made up :-/
It worked with no problem with James' car but they are presumably hand made and the possibility of error exists. Then again, as I say, I can't see how it would generate these errors unless something's gone wrong with the connections to the petrol ECU. Is it worth buzzing these through with a multimeter to be absolutely certain they go to the correct pins?
Don't give up on it at this stage. I think you're very close and I'm sure James will confirm that the system seems to work very well when it's behaving.
I'm sure we can work out a way to help if you don't manage to resolve it.
Kevin
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well some progress today...but still not complete >:(
we have got the car going, however i have destroyed a cat (it is rattling its nuts off, i damaged it driving home last friday :'()
most of the fault codes have disappeared, we had a short that was causing two of the faults, but i have a knock sensor fault code that will reappear within minutes of it being cleared, on idle it will not reappear, as soon as we get above 1500 rpm it will flash up.
On petrol the car runs fune (aside from the knock sensor) on gas it has a bad misfire, we have put new plugs and leads on today, the dispack was replaced 10k ago, once we have it up to speed it will run, but not accelerate very will without missing.
Kevin, i have tried to use James's map, it will not allow me to import a map >:( and i will be the first to admit i find the instructions on how to map the system a bit unclear, but even if we had a good map i still feel it will misfire as you try to pull away and accellerate
One for the LPG experts, would a bad knock sensor give all the symptons of a plug lead that was going/gone bad (low speed and under load misfire)
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I'll confirm the system works well when I get rid of my missfire
Although generally it's acceptable on gas, accelleration is not the same as that of petrol, it feels a little asthmatic when given some welly. Saying that, I left a golf in my dust this evening when on gas, so it's not as bad as I make out - just .. noticable. Although, I guess there will always be a bit of a drop on LPG.
I also get a bit of hesitation when revved from standing start, but I think that's another characteristic of LPG, it's not noticable under normal driving.
I rekon I also need some new leads, and maybe a new coil pack to cope with the LPG - so we'll see what happens when I've investigated these options.
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I must say, I am a little concerned that we are both getting an "under load missfire".... using the same kit.
I do hope it's not a compatibility problem!
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mine is currently no where near as good as you, it is very gutless and feels like something is being retarded, i have to pull away on petrol and flick it over to gas once we have it up about idle........
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mine is currently no where near as good as you, it is very gutless and feels like something is being retarded, i have to pull away on petrol and flick it over to gas once we have it up about idle........
Have you done any manual tuning? I had to add a lot of fuel to James' one further up the range. Can't remember if we tried to drive it immediately on LPG after the auto calibration but that procedure only really sorts out the fuelling close to idle. Shame that damn file didn't load. >:(
One thought: I was using the latest version of their software downloaded from www.ac.com.pl IIRC. Maybe worth installing that software in case the file format has changed and we have incompatible versions of software?
I do hope it's not a compatibility problem!
It's hard to see what could be incompatible :-/ It only requires the injector drive signals and the RPM signal to run and these are working as evidenced by the injector durations and RPM in the live readouts.
It feels like an ignition misfire too. Maybe the output of the coil packs is a bit marginal for LPG. Have you tried closing the gaps on the plugs slightly?
Kevin
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mine is currently no where near as good as you, it is very gutless and feels like something is being retarded, i have to pull away on petrol and flick it over to gas once we have it up about idle........
Have you done any manual tuning? I had to add a lot of fuel to James' one further up the range. Can't remember if we tried to drive it immediately on LPG after the auto calibration but that procedure only really sorts out the fuelling close to idle. Shame that damn file didn't load. >:(
One thought: I was using the latest version of their software downloaded from www.ac.com.pl IIRC. Maybe worth installing that software in case the file format has changed and we have incompatible versions of software?
I do hope it's not a compatibility problem!
It's hard to see what could be incompatible :-/ It only requires the injector drive signals and the RPM signal to run and these are working as evidenced by the injector durations and RPM in the live readouts.
It feels like an ignition misfire too. Maybe the output of the coil packs is a bit marginal for LPG. Have you tried closing the gaps on the plugs slightly?
Kevin
once we did the auto calibration i then took the car out of the road and did a lot of tuning, my biggest problem there was i am not 100% confident with what i was doing......
the car runs, but misses on idle, it sounds like it is running on 4 or 5, once it is up and running it smooths out, its behaviour is typical of an elecrical misfire, but the difference is soooooo great it is like driving two different cars, it is not a marginal difference, and seeing as the dispack was replaced not that long ago we are running out of ideas
the plugs were gapped up for petrol, would LPG need that much of a different gap?
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mine is currently no where near as good as you, it is very gutless and feels like something is being retarded, i have to pull away on petrol and flick it over to gas once we have it up about idle........
Oh no, it's not that bad. I don't see any noticable difference between the two, unless I am really giving it some large...
Sorry to ask again rather than read back - did you drill those injector nozzles?
I am still willing to bet that this is something really silly, like two transposed injector plugs...
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mine is currently no where near as good as you, it is very gutless and feels like something is being retarded, i have to pull away on petrol and flick it over to gas once we have it up about idle........
Oh no, it's not that bad. I don't see any noticable difference between the two, unless I am really giving it some large...
Sorry to ask again rather than read back - did you drill those injector nozzles?
I am still willing to bet that this is something really silly, like two transposed injector plugs...
yes, the injectors have been drilled out, the inkector wiring has been double checked today..
i am still getting the knock sensor fault code that will not go away so that will be changed tomorrow, i am hoping that will have some difference
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I've seen knock sensor wires cut clean off before, or unplugged, but it won't result in a missfire, unless your petrol is awful....
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I've seen knock sensor wires cut clean off before, or unplugged, but it won't result in a missfire, unless your petrol is awful....
no, on petrol it is ok, you know it is on a limp mode though, it is a bit flat but no misfire.......
misfire only on gas
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misfire only on gas
Same here - only not nearly as severe as yours.
And if it's not HT related, I'm going to be stuck!
Only think I can think of, is the nozzles may need angling better? I might talk to sassanch, 'cos we couldn't realistically get the nozzles next to the petrol injectors..
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misfire only on gas
Same here - only not nearly as severe as yours.
And if it's not HT related, I'm going to be stuck!
Only think I can think of, is the nozzles may need angling better? I might talk to sassanch, 'cos we couldn't realistically get the nozzles next to the petrol injectors..
Perhaps the Romano through plenum nozzles do work then?
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Only think I can think of, is the nozzles may need angling better? I might talk to sassanch, 'cos we couldn't realistically get the nozzles next to the petrol injectors..
This is a good point. Injector angle isn't ideal going through the walls of the manifold. I guess at certain RPM there could be a bit of reversion in the intake that's blowing the gas back up the intake tract :-/
It sounds like you've got 2 different types of misfire though. James' car idled smoothly and misfired only under load.
Would be worth finding out what sassanach did. I have a feeling he posted some pictures on here.
Perhaps the Romano through plenum nozzles do work then?
They certainly allow you to get a better angle. However, I've been looking at a lot of conversions on the web and many of them have pretty haphazard nozzle placement. :-/
What plugs do you use, Martin? Just standard VX 2 electrodes?
Kevin
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NGK 2 electrode as suggested for the 2.5 3.0 as 2 electrode is supposed to be better for gas
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NGK 2 electrode as suggested for the 2.5 3.0 as 2 electrode is supposed to be better for gas
Really?
I hear NGK are always the best for gas... but also heard that single electrode is best on gas?
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NGK 2 electrode as suggested for the 2.5 3.0 as 2 electrode is supposed to be better for gas
Really?
I hear NGK are always the best for gas... but also heard that single electrode is best on gas?
You can try single electrode but I was recommended these by NGK, can you get sigle electrodes for them.
Mine runs better on NGK 2s than Bosch 4s
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I've seen knock sensor wires cut clean off before, or unplugged, but it won't result in a missfire, unless your petrol is awful....
a damaged knock sensor will make it run like a sack or shite about 2k rpm. petrol or lpg.
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NGK do make an iridium single electrode plug specifically for LPG converted cars - BKR6EIXLPG for the V6 allegedly.
Kevin
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I was told that nkg twins were better for gas, so we took out the bosch super 4s.
when the eml light comes on the car runs very flat throughout the rev range, turn it off using launch and for the 30 seconds or so it is off it is much more peppy.
gas feel like one or two cyliders are out, today I am going to try and find out where the problem lies by using the diagnostics program supplied to knock out injectors until I figure it out
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NGK do make an iridium single electrode plug specifically for LPG converted cars - BKR6EIXLPG for the V6 allegedly.
Kevin
I'll be getting a set of those, for when I install my new leads, then :)
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Double check the number in case it's wrong. That was just from an internet search, but it sounds interesting. Not cheap though. :o
Might be worth trying to gap the existing ones a bit closer first?
Kevin
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I'll confirm the system works well when I get rid of my missfire
Although generally it's acceptable on gas, accelleration is not the same as that of petrol, it feels a little asthmatic when given some welly. Saying that, I left a golf in my dust this evening when on gas, so it's not as bad as I make out - just .. noticable. Although, I guess there will always be a bit of a drop on LPG.
I also get a bit of hesitation when revved from standing start, but I think that's another characteristic of LPG, it's not noticable under normal driving.
I rekon I also need some new leads, and maybe a new coil pack to cope with the LPG - so we'll see what happens when I've investigated these options.
Your welcome to come and try my 2.2 James.....i think you'll find it behaves exactly the same as yours, tho less power obviously......from what you describe mine does the same and its always been like it. Altho mine has started missing on lpg idling until fully upto temp.....that might be the cold weather or my plugs are overdue a change :-/
Ive always used vx plugs twin electrode.
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on the subject of "missing on gas" i had a similar problem with mine when i first assembled it , it would only run on five cylinders.so after dissasembling various injectors and swapping them about to see if the problem would "move",i discovered that i had one of the pipes trapped under the plenum and the gas could,nt get through.easily done and you only have to crush the pipe 1mm to block it.btw i am still running the same plugs, leads and dis pack that i bought the car with 18months ago, i must have done something right in a previous life that im not aware off
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We did also consider the possibility of a partially blocked gas pipe
Mine doesn't run on 5 - usually runs on 6, but that becomes 5.5 under load...
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its also my belief that if you want a gas or a liquid to travel as fast as possible the you make the supply pipe as straight as possible, ie no bends. from what i can make of it you have introduced at least 2 sharp 90 degree bends in your system.one at the supply nozzle and of course the gas injected into the inlet manifold has an immediate right turn to enter the inlet stream thus losing speed.wether this is your problem or not ive no way of knowing.btw when the nozzles point in the same direction as the petrol injectors the supply pipe also gets shorter which cant hurt.
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its also my belief that if you want a gas or a liquid to travel as fast as possible the you make the supply pipe as straight as possible, ie no bends. from what i can make of it you have introduced at least 2 sharp 90 degree bends in your system.one at the supply nozzle and of course the gas injected into the inlet manifold has an immediate right turn to enter the inlet stream thus losing speed.wether this is your problem or not ive no way of knowing.btw when the nozzles point in the same direction as the petrol injectors the supply pipe also gets shorter which cant hurt.
Have you got a pic of your manifold, that I could copy?
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unfortunately not.
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right we have had a small breakthrough this morning......
Been playing around with the system, knocking out one cylinder at a time.
Got to number 5 and there is an improvement, it runs smoother and picks up like a petrol engined car.
when i switch injector 5 back on the lambda readings dip to nearly 0.00 and it runs like a dog again
now i know that by switching a gas injector off it puts the petrol one on, so i have 5 running on gas and 1 on petrol.....
when i try this with any of the other cylinders there is no change, number 5 is not alive ::) by the seems of it.
Pipework is Ok, nozzle is drilled, i can pull the pipe off the nozzle and blow into the engine without any issue, how do you test an injector though?
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Fantastic progress, you have a great start point now
Pull off the injector off for that bank, and try blowing into/sucking through the main gas inlet for it. If you can blow OR suck then you have an injector stuck!
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Excellent! A lead to follow.
If the Lambda dips to 0 the cylinder is going lean. Suggests the gas injector is not firing. If you switch all other cylinders to petrol bar this one can you hear the gas injector ticking?
Also try swapping the connector into the gas injector and the pipe to the nozzle with another cylinder. Does the problem stay with cylinder 5 or swap to the other cylinder?
Kevin
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I have swapped the injector and the problem stays with no 5.
I have just double checked the nozzle and am able to blow and suck the feed pipe to the engine, i have a feeling that the issue may lie with the injection block, i am now going to swap then over and see where we go
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If you've tried number 5 cylinder on a different injector (in that block) and number 5 still misfires it proves the injector is OK (as it worked on another cylinder). At this point I would suspect the feed from the ECU to that injector :-/
Kevin
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If you've tried number 5 cylinder on a different injector (in that block) and number 5 still misfires it proves the injector is OK (as it worked on another cylinder). At this point I would suspect the feed from the ECU to that injector :-/
Kevin
well this is what we have done so far
Swapped the yellow electro magnet
Swapped the plunger inside
Swapped the nozzle
Checked the feed pipes for kinks and blockages
checked the connections at the petrol injector end
Still the problem lies with no. 5
you can feel the injector clicking away when you have your hand on it.
what sort of voltage would you expect to see from one of these is you were testing it?
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Fantastic progress, you have a great start point now
Pull off the injector off for that bank, and try blowing into/sucking through the main gas inlet for it. If you can blow OR suck then you have an injector stuck!
THat is for stuck open - like that OMVL kit
Not sure what voltage triggers them
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well just to be double double sure we ripped apart the 1.3.5 injectors, we checked all the pipework, have nee over the loom and anything else that we thought might be the issue.
Put it back together..........
IT WORKS!!
fires up and runs lovely on all 6, still has a bit of hesitancy if you floor it from idle, but that is a mapping issue, and mapping is my weakest point.
Pulls like a train, in fact i had to keep checking it hadn't switched back to petrol, cruising at 80 and switched over to petrol and you couldn't feel the changeover or any difference in performance
Am well happy now, thanks guys for all your suggestions and encouragement
[smiley=tekst-toppie.gif]
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Double check the number in case it's wrong. That was just from an internet search, but it sounds interesting. Not cheap though. :o
Might be worth trying to gap the existing ones a bit closer first?
Kevin
You need a good spark for lpg.....and ive been recomended to open the gap up a bit by a few thou.....for single electrode plugs.......just about imposible to do on twin or quad plugs tho, so as i fit twin electrode plugs I leave them preset at 1mm.
I guess the above advice I was given......means a bigger spark in theory :-/
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well just to be double double sure we ripped apart the 1.3.5 injectors, we checked all the pipework, have nee over the loom and anything else that we thought might be the issue.
Put it back together..........
IT WORKS!!
fires up and runs lovely on all 6, still has a bit of hesitancy if you floor it from idle, but that is a mapping issue, and mapping is my weakest point.
Pulls like a train, in fact i had to keep checking it hadn't switched back to petrol, cruising at 80 and switched over to petrol and you couldn't feel the changeover or any difference in performance
Am well happy now, thanks guys for all your suggestions and encouragement
[smiley=tekst-toppie.gif]
Great news Jay :y
Tho were back to this hesitancy when flooring it from idle......mine does it, James's does it and a few other Omega TD's on LPG do it to........so its either normal and nothing to worry about or theres summat not quite right......Ive even spoken to the guys that installed my system about it......they dont think its a problem.
Tho id be very interested if you find out what causes it.
Does yours do this Martin? Hesitate if you floor it either in N idling or in D from standstill?
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Yes, I have that bit of hesitation from idle too. As Kev says, might need the mapping checked again.
Really pleased you fixed it though. Let's have some pics of the install :y
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mine only hesitates when i slam my foot down from idle, if i introduce the power slowly and pull away smoothly then it is fine.
i know it still needs the map fettling with, i have 500 miles to do this week, so next weekend we will be back at it again
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Does yours do this Martin? Hesitate if you floor it either in N idling or in D from standstill?
Occasionally - but could be the DBW throttle body
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IT WORKS!!
Excellent news :y
Keep an eye on it. I wonder if that injector was just stuck or maybe the wiring is a little loose in one of the connectors. Anyway, congratulations. You must be very happy after the rocky ride it's given you over the past couple of weeks!
You need a good spark for lpg.....and ive been recomended to open the gap up a bit by a few thou.....for single electrode plugs.......just about imposible to do on twin or quad plugs tho, so as i fit twin electrode plugs I leave them preset at 1mm.
Opening the plug gap does give you a more powerful spark up to a point, if you have enough HT voltage. The problem is that LPG needs more voltage for a given gap size so opening it will compound the problem if the coil is not able to produce enough voltage for a standard plug gap, hence closing it up will help if it's failing to produce a spark at all due to low HT volts.
mine only hesitates when i slam my foot down from idle, if i introduce the power slowly and pull away smoothly then it is fine.
I think this is either mapping or the acceleration enrichment for petrol is just not quite right for gas. Former can be fixed, the latter is not so easy. Also, with the 2.5mm jets the fuel was flat out at full throttle so add acceleration enrichment to it and they may simply not be able to provide enough fuel for a rapid transition from no throttle to full throttle.
Kevin
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Well done on getting it sorted.
I have nearly got all my parts together, I just need a dongle for a Dream 21C, a filler, a few pipe clips, and some jubilees, and am ready to start drilling holes in things.
Cheers Ken
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I think this is either mapping or the acceleration enrichment for petrol is just not quite right for gas. Former can be fixed, the latter is not so easy. Also, with the 2.5mm jets the fuel was flat out at full throttle so add acceleration enrichment to it and they may simply not be able to provide enough fuel for a rapid transition from no throttle to full throttle.
Kevin
Would there be any benefit in boring the jets out further, the theory being that the injectors wouldn't have to work so hard on WOT
I get the error message when i am near the redline or wide open throttle at the top end of the rev range
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Would there be any benefit in boring the jets out further
Well, James' ECU was already complaining that they were too big. It's a toss up between getting enough fuel at the top end and not losing control of it at idle. The manual does say it's Ok to have the injectors full on at peak RPM as long as the lambdas stay indicating rich :-/ I'd be happier if they were 80% on at peak power. That's the normal target when sizing petrol injectors.
At some point I'll be drilling some bigger jets for my 3.2 so we can try them in a 2.5 perhaps?
The other possibility is to try tweaking the gas pressure up a little. I didn't notice if that vapouriser has an obvious adjustment on it?
Thinking about it further, I don't believe jet size is the problem with the stumble. It becomes an issue at high load and high revs because there is insufficient time between each firing of the cylinder to inject enough gas. When blipping the throttle from 500 RPM there's ample time to inject as much gas as you like due to the low RPM so my musings about jet size are probably cr@p!
Kevin
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People who know LPG better than me (ie everyone!) do say that it takes about 1000 miles for the system to bed in on older engines (something to do with the cleaning effect of gas), and will need resetting again at 1000m
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So, did the LPG conversion behave for you today, Jay w?
Kevin
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So, did the LPG conversion behave for you today, Jay w?
Kevin
oh yes......240 miles on LPG and the guage on the tank is just above the red (70l tank)
at some points we were cruising down the a303 at slightly more than legal ::) and it was very smooth
i noticed on some of the long hills around stonehenge it was missing a but if it had a lot of throttle for a long time, switch back to petrol, get to the top, flick back to LPG and all was well.
MID is showing average of 36.7 mpg ;D and then there is the novelty of doing all that mileage and not watching the fuel guage drop quickier than the titanic
just got to get the LPG guage sorted and then it will be sorted
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People who know LPG better than me (ie everyone!) do say that it takes about 1000 miles for the system to bed in on older engines (something to do with the cleaning effect of gas), and will need resetting again at 1000m
about a fortnight then for me :y
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IT WORKS!!
Excellent news :y
Keep an eye on it. I wonder if that injector was just stuck or maybe the wiring is a little loose in one of the connectors. Anyway, congratulations. You must be very happy after the rocky ride it's given you over the past couple of weeks!
You need a good spark for lpg.....and ive been recomended to open the gap up a bit by a few thou.....for single electrode plugs.......just about imposible to do on twin or quad plugs tho, so as i fit twin electrode plugs I leave them preset at 1mm.
Opening the plug gap does give you a more powerful spark up to a point, if you have enough HT voltage. The problem is that LPG needs more voltage for a given gap size so opening it will compound the problem if the coil is not able to produce enough voltage for a standard plug gap, hence closing it up will help if it's failing to produce a spark at all due to low HT volts.
mine only hesitates when i slam my foot down from idle, if i introduce the power slowly and pull away smoothly then it is fine.
I think this is either mapping or the acceleration enrichment for petrol is just not quite right for gas. Former can be fixed, the latter is not so easy. Also, with the 2.5mm jets the fuel was flat out at full throttle so add acceleration enrichment to it and they may simply not be able to provide enough fuel for a rapid transition from no throttle to full throttle.
Kevin
Yes fair point for petrol.....but a smaller spark may not be enough to ignite the lpg :-/
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oh yes......240 miles on LPG and the guage on the tank is just above the red (70l tank)
:y Glad to hear it.
Yes fair point for petrol.....but a smaller spark may not be enough to ignite the lpg
Agreed. Depends what the issue is, really. I guess a bit of experimentation is required.
Kevin
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filled up tonight, 60l :o (£30 :y )
may not seem like too much of an issue but i have a 70l tank and i am only supposed to be able to fill it to 80% of its capacity....and it had some gas in it.....
I reckon the 80% doofer has failed and is now allowing me to fill right up, what are the issues with this?
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what are the issues with this?
Just be a bit careful of filling it up and then immediately leaving it in the sun (some hope!). The tank can overpressure as the fuel expands whereby it vents some fuel to the atmosphere. Not a potential bomb or anything, just a waste of fuel.
If you fill it up and then immediately burn off the extra it won't do any harm. Might as well make use of the extra capacity.
Kevin
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what are the issues with this?
Just be a bit careful of filling it up and then immediately leaving it in the sun (some hope!). The tank can overpressure as the fuel expands whereby it vents some fuel to the atmosphere. Not a potential bomb or anything, just a waste of fuel.
If you fill it up and then immediately burn off the extra it won't do any harm. Might as well make use of the extra capacity.
Kevin
Exactly the advice i was given by lpg installer, when the tank went like on the VeccyC.......no big issue.
And i enjoyed the extra capacity from it :y
Tho if the kit is under warranty......would be worth getting it swapped over.
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WOW guys, i leave you all for a few months and come back to LPG mania.... :y
Since i did my install i have never felt happier and my bank manager is chuffed to bits too, so glad others are following suit. Just a shame i wasn't on OOF to lend a hand here and there.
keep it up chaps :y
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I know of at least 5 of us now that have used DIY kits
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That's good to hear. I've done my second now and am v happy but i think i'm going to keep this car for a long while to get my money's worth out of it. Doing the install is easy(ish) but it was a pain when i could only do the work at the w/end and had to make sure it was roadworthy the next day for work (or shipping the mrs to the shops!)
The car is a 52 MV6 with 64k for £2800 and the kit cost £700, so not too much money for a cheap, strong, safe family run about! I'd be happy to keep her for a few years to come, it looks smart and i'm happy to be an Omega owner.
Anyway... i've drunk too much sambuca and am waffaling on a bit now! :-X
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Was it you who posted a picture of a very nice job done on positioning the LPG injectors just next to the petrol injectors a while back?
If so, can you dig it up again, please?
Kevin
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Was it you who posted a picture of a very nice job done on positioning the LPG injectors just next to the petrol injectors a while back?
If so, can you dig it up again, please?
Kevin
Kevin,
I'm not too sure if you are after the injector assy or injector nozzles into the inlet bridge. I've dug them all up for you anyway.
Cheers
Marc
(http://s164763218.websitehome.co.uk/omega/both_mounted.JPG)
(http://s164763218.websitehome.co.uk/omega/injectors2)
(http://s164763218.websitehome.co.uk/omega/injector_mount1)
(http://s164763218.websitehome.co.uk/omega/injectors_drivers)
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z51/omegalp6/1.jpg)
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z51/omegalp6/2.jpg)
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z51/omegalp6/3.jpg)
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z51/omegalp6/4.jpg)
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z51/omegalp6/5.jpg)
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z51/omegalp6/6.jpg)
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http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1176893207
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ditto!!!!
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I'm not too sure if you are after the injector assy or injector nozzles into the inlet bridge. I've dug them all up for you anyway.
Thanks very much. They're excellent. I was thinking in terms of a similar bracket off the plenum bolts for the injectors too.
I like the nozzle placement! Didn't quite have the guts to get them that close to the injectors with James' car. Maybe I'll be a bit more adventurous with mine?
Cheers,
Kevin
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Are those nozzles M6 ones, by the way? There just didn't seem to be enough space to do that... wonder if you've got smaller ones?
Kevin
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just back from London, done 640 miles this week and 95% of that was on gas.
total cost was £68, averaged 22 mpg and that was made up of 500 miles of M way and fast A roads and the rest was stop start shunting round town.
Pleased with that, had i spent £68 on petrol and averaged 30 mpg i would have only got about 420 miles so 240 miles for free cannot be knocked.
Still want to do some more with the fueling i wonder if it running a bit rich in places, i may have a look on the PC this weekend and have a proper go at it once i have done a couple of thousand miles and let it all settle down
Total petrol usage for this week about 2 gallons ;D
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Can't be bad :y
On the whole, when cruising, the mixture will be controlled by the Lambda sensors so, as long as the LPG fuelling is close enough for it to be pulled-in by the petrol ECU it will be running spot-on (if it's not close enough you'll get a EML). Of course, when accelerating flat out and when constantly changing speed and load the lambda sensors do not get a chance to come into operation so that's where you'll gain with fine-tuning.
The other thing that you can do is to tune individual injectors. If you get it tuned so the LPG and Petrol injector times are the same, then flick individual cylinders back to petrol you can idenitfy any that cause a change in injector duration and tweak them individually. Shouldn't be necessary but might be worth a play.
Kevin
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Are those nozzles M6 ones, by the way? There just didn't seem to be enough space to do that... wonder if you've got smaller ones?
Kevin
M6? didn't know thay had a value (apart from thread) TBH my dad did the drilling n tapping as he's a dab hand at that sort of stuff. I could have done it, but i'm sure not as good a job as my dad did. He's Royces engineer and has work like that down to a fine art! A few years back he made his own turntable arm out of off cuts from the williams F1 car factory, and looking at the final product i would never of thought it was hand made, twas so good! I think he sold it for quite a large price too!
I seem to recall that the position of my injector nozzles were at a point where there wasn't too much material to work with, hence we took it very easy. I wanted to get it as close as possible and at a good angle, so the final location in the pics was after a good hard think, i certainly didn't jump at it too quickly. Also one of the nozzles sheared as it was nipped up so he had to knock another up on the lathe A-SAP, otherwise i'd be without a car for work the next day.
I think if i was to do a third LPG kit, i would make sure i had another car to drive about in while the work is carried out. Half of the problems were made worse by sunday evening deadlines. >:( So get another car for a few days if you can!
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Can't be bad :y
On the whole, when cruising, the mixture will be controlled by the Lambda sensors so, as long as the LPG fuelling is close enough for it to be pulled-in by the petrol ECU it will be running spot-on (if it's not close enough you'll get a EML). Of course, when accelerating flat out and when constantly changing speed and load the lambda sensors do not get a chance to come into operation so that's where you'll gain with fine-tuning.
The other thing that you can do is to tune individual injectors. If you get it tuned so the LPG and Petrol injector times are the same, then flick individual cylinders back to petrol you can idenitfy any that cause a change in injector duration and tweak them individually. Shouldn't be necessary but might be worth a play.
Kevin
Kev,
I don't think you could be more correct! My EML lights up when i take it easy and maintain a speed for a while, but soon goes out if i hammer her all the way home. My GM code reader reads Fuel trim malfunction on both banks.
I did have this problem a while back so i drilled out the injector nozzles to 3.0mm and the error never came back. But since then it's got much colder outside and the error has returned to haunt me. It only seems to occur on days with a temp of less that 5deg's. So i am wondering if the GM ECU is trying to richen the fuel up, which the gas nozzles are restricting again??
this error has bugged me for quite a while, so i'd be interested in any input.
Cheers
Marc
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Hi Marc,
Sounds like your dad is a clever chap.
I was referring to the thread size of the nozzles- ie 6mm. This is what James' kit had.
Regarding having another car to run about it - I have one, but the current weather makes it a bit less than ideal :-/
I must get hold of the LPG kit and make a start on mine.
I would have thought the EML issue is down to the mapping of the LPG system. You've got it close to the limits of how far the petrol ECU will adjust and occasionally the conditions are taking it outside those limits. Depends how your system is mapped but a few hours driving round with a laptop on the passenger seat (ideally with an operator too!) should see it done. 3mm injector nozzles should be ample. We used 2.5mm on James' car.
Cheers,
Kevin
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So you are taking the plunge Kevin? Fantastic news. When do we come over :y
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Hi Marc,
Sounds like your dad is a clever chap.
I was referring to the thread size of the nozzles- ie 6mm. This is what James' kit had.
Regarding having another car to run about it - I have one, but the current weather makes it a bit less than ideal :-/
I must get hold of the LPG kit and make a start on mine.
I would have thought the EML issue is down to the mapping of the LPG system. You've got it close to the limits of how far the petrol ECU will adjust and occasionally the conditions are taking it outside those limits. Depends how your system is mapped but a few hours driving round with a laptop on the passenger seat (ideally with an operator too!) should see it done. 3mm injector nozzles should be ample. We used 2.5mm on James' car.
Cheers,
Kevin
Kev,
I might give that a go, but as the EML light takes 10 miles or so to switch on or off it could take a while to 'tweak'. From what i understand LPG has a 15% lower calorific value if compared to petrol and i have a setting for this, maybe i should give that a tweak.
My LPG kit supplier has also just bought a 99 Elite 2.5, which will be his first omega conversion, so maybe he could shed a little light as he's using the same kit as me.
He will supply the same kit as mine if anyone is interested? I got the cable and software too, so am able to tweak, which isn't always avaiable for free from what i undertsand.
I will dump the software on the web for all to see/compare, once i have confirmed it's ok to re-distribute.
Cheers
Marc
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As I say, it depends on your system. James' system draws a graph of how the injectors are observed to repspond on petrol and also on LPG so it's just a matter of adjusting it until they are the same, switching between the fuels as necessary.
Another technique is to switch between LPG and petrol and watch the injector durations from the main ECU. They should be the same. If they change, it's an indication that the main ECU is having to adjust the fuelling between the two fuels, hence the LPG needs adjustment. Repeat this for a few different speeds / loads and you should have it sorted pretty quick. If the injector suration increases when switching to LPG the LPG system is too lean and vice versa.
As a final step, always try a full throttle run across the rev range and check that the lambda sensor outputs are high throughout (0.8 v is typical). This is to ensure it's not going lean under heavy load which is not a good thing.
Cheers,
Kevin
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i used the map that James posted up on the other thread, it was a good start point but again it did underline one thing, how different our conversions are even thought we are using the same kit....
James's starting point was a lot further down the multiplyer range, he started at .95 for mine for run properly i had to start at 1.3 and work from there....
By the time i finished last night i had less than 5% deflection and both of the curves were very close, ran it for about 20 miles and it was very good indeed, you would struggle to notice the difference.
Coming up to London today, everything running good, got to about 120 miles and the EML light came on :o :o switched back to petrol and it went off after a few miles.....then came back on, so floored it and it quickly went off..... only came on when i was running cruise control and sat at about 80mph, so it looks like it is leaning off too much and may need a little more tweaking at mid range, that will have to be the weekend now as i dont have my lappy with me.
Overall we have done about 1000 miles now and it is getting a lot better, i am getting about 250miles to about 60 litres which i am more than happy with.
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Have you LPG -ers to be seen this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150192359732&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=005) on e-bay? Worth it perhaps for the injector assy alone to drill out, plus the other bits and bobs.... ;)