Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: ryan2.2 on 27 November 2009, 08:37:41
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Hi guys my car wont start i put a post on hear a few days ago bout a orange light on my dash and now it wont start does any 1 have any ideas or a fault reader. Really need to get my car sorted any help guys will be great
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is EML or Spanner light on dash?? meybe cam sensor gone .
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Its a orange light in the sharp of a engine when i turn the key all the dash light come on as per norm but it wont turn over??
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you can get a 'cheapo' tech2 from eBay for £30 odd. Does it try and start? Does it crank but not fire?
Drop Darth Loo Knee a PM, he is near you and should be able to read the codes :y
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Its dead doesnt even try to fire i will send him a pm thanx
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Pity you didnt make to to the meet at the weekend, could have read them then.
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The light wasnt on at the weekend all happan last night couldnt make sunday couldnt get the door sorted
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Really hope I can get this sorted over the weekend does anyone have a clue what it could be?
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have you actually tried the pedal trick as per maint guides...
1 or 2 say it has worked on their 2.2's but definately the minority.
worth a try anyway.
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being an '03 plate very much doubt pedal trick will work, i heard a rumour.... (don't want to be accused of quoting wrong things again AndyB)
It was only the very, very early 2.2's which had an older version of the engine ECU, that could be pedal tricked?
Mines a March 2000, and can't be done :(
Ryan - Just to clarify, does it crank? Do you hear the starter motor turning?
Main causes for not starting on 2.2 is cam sensor, it takes a lot of cranking but should start, other sensor would be crank sensor. But you don't want to go changing parts which could be working, you really need to get the codes read first before doing anything.
If it does not even crank, check all the fuses under the steering wheel
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Thanx for the tips will have a look at the fuses when i get home. All the car does when i turn the key is dash light come on and thats it it doesnt turn over or even try to hope that helps with the ideas
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Manual or auto?
If auto, I'd be looking at the gear selector switch as the first port of call based on what you describe.
If manual, check the wiring on the starter motor itself.
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its manual will look at the wireing under the bonnet too thanx guys
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Thanx for the tips will have a look at the fuses when i get home. All the car does when i turn the key is dash light come on and thats it it doesnt turn over or even try to hope that helps with the ideas
Do the lights dim when you try to start it?
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Marks DTM Calib i will have a look when i get home
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Just sounds like a possible flat battery
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I see I can bump start it tho could it still be a flat bat?? dont know much bout cars
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I see I can bump start it tho could it still be a flat bat?? dont know much bout cars
Yep, enough juice to run the electrics but not enough to crank the engine....could also be a knackered battery to
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Would that make the orange light come on?
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Would that make the orange light come on?
It could do, low battery voltage warning code
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will try that
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Just thought I would give you all a bit of a up date tryed the pedal trick it worked whoo it gave mw a code of 10 3 4 10 does any 1 know what it means???
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Just thought I would give you all a bit of a up date tryed the pedal trick it worked whoo it gave mw a code of 10 3 4 10 does any 1 know what it means???
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There is a guide to the error codes in the maintenance section (index here http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1259003779)
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1197277611
says 0340 is camshaft position sensor.
Quite common on the 2.2 apparently.
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Great new..... sorry to be thick but what does it mean ??
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There is a guide to the error codes in the maintenance section (index here http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1259003779)
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1197277611
says 0340 is camshaft position sensor.
Quite common on the 2.2 apparently.
That wouldn't cause the starter to fail to operate in it's entirety.
@ the OP
Does the EML lamp extinguish within 5 seconds of the car starting once you have successfully bumped it?
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sorry what is the EML lamp is that the orange light if so no it stayed on after i bumped it
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There is a guide to the error codes in the maintenance section (index here http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1259003779)
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1197277611
says 0340 is camshaft position sensor.
Quite common on the 2.2 apparently.
That wouldn't cause the starter to fail to operate in it's entirety.
Camshaft sensor problem does make the car difficult to start so putting extra load on the battery.
Not saying the battery or charging system is beyond doubt but you don't have to crank a non starting engine for long to discharge the battery to the stage where it won't turn over at all.
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There is a guide to the error codes in the maintenance section (index here http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1259003779)
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1197277611
says 0340 is camshaft position sensor.
Quite common on the 2.2 apparently.
That wouldn't cause the starter to fail to operate in it's entirety.
Camshaft sensor problem does make the car difficult to start so putting extra load on the battery.
Not saying the battery or charging system is beyond doubt but you don't have to crank a non starting engine for long to discharge the battery to the stage where it won't turn over at all.
Usually its hot start issues only with cam sensor on 4pot, cold starts won't be an issue.
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Since last night when the car would not start its not turn over all i get when i turn the key is lights on the dash board so i will try the battery idea in the morning sum jump lead off a diffant car if that does not start the car will have to pick your minds sum more thanx guys
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2 problems IMHO ..
1) Camsensor - Change it :)
2) Fails to turn over - Battery or Starter Motor
Did you BUMP start it ie push it/tow it or JUMP start it ie another battery ??
If the first I would get another battery/car and some jump leads .. see if the starter turns.
If it does you need a new battery, if it doesn't .. then starter motor is suspect .. :)
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I see I can bump start it tho could it still be a flat bat?? dont know much bout cars
Entwood, ^^ ::)
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rolled it down a hill to bump start it will jump leads in the morning and go from there thanx again
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replace the battery!
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replace the battery!
Nah .. jump start it first to check out the starter motor .... :)
If it turns THEN replace the battery .. if it doesn't .... we need to find out why the starter ain't turning and thats a list of 1/2 a dozen possibilities .. :)
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Might be worthtrying to give the battery a long slow charge before replacing it. :-/
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I'm in no way qualified compared to the fountains of knowledge on here :y but to me starting problems really are a process of elimination.
First, as said before, try jump starting (not bump starting) and that'll rule out the battery.
Secondly, and I've never done this on an Omega before but try to give the starter a thump because they sometimes jam (I used to use an old jack handle). Preferably you need to hit the end but this isn't always possible with access. Be careful though, starter motors are cast and you don't want to crack it. You need to know where to hit it and how hard!
Failing that I'd start looking at the ignition system and all the trendy electrics like immobilizes.
The only thing I'd add is if it turns out it's the battery, is the alternator at fault? And starter motors can't be unjammed forever so don't be tempted to leave it and just give it a whack every morning :P
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First call, jump start or get the battery checked out.
Had previous cars were the battery just packs up, no warnings.
Mick
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I'm in no way qualified compared to the fountains of knowledge on here :y but to me starting problems really are a process of elimination.
First, as said before, try jump starting (not bump starting) and that'll rule out the battery.
Secondly, and I've never done this on an Omega before but try to give the starter a thump because they sometimes jam (I used to use an old jack handle). Preferably you need to hit the end but this isn't always possible with access. Be careful though, starter motors are cast and you don't want to crack it. You need to know where to hit it and how hard!
Failing that I'd start looking at the ignition system and all the trendy electrics like immobilizes.
The only thing I'd add is if it turns out it's the battery, is the alternator at fault? And starter motors can't be unjammed forever so don't be tempted to leave it and just give it a whack every morning :P
Absolutely! There really isn't much space down the side of an Omega engine and there are terminals connecting the starter and alternator to the battery.
I would be concerned about welding the jack handle to the main starter feed :o :o
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I didn't mean weld it, just use it to hit it :P
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first thing to do is take keys out of the ignition .lock the car then unlock it then try starting it !then put your headlights on and turn the key if lights go dim its the battery or starter.motor.try all of those things and see what happens?hope it helps? :y
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lol thats a good mental image ^^^, i agree with the other people on here if it starts by bump starting the starter motor wont be siezed because when you bump it it will get freed up, it cant b the starter solonoid siezed as yo will still hear the starter spinning, so my moneys on the battery, get her started and if you have a voltmeter to hand place it accross the battery, you should have about 14.3 volts when engine is running if so then replace batt if not then time to look at alternater.
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hi guys right i have bought sum jump leads and used my gfs cars to try to start mine with no joy. Left my gfs cars running for bout 10 mins and the starter didnt even try so with a fault code of 10 3 4 10 which it seems points to a cam sonsor or sumthing any thoughts
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you said you jump started it before? What kind of car does your gf have? Something like a Corsa is going to need the nuts revved of it, to give it enough juice, as long as it has decent leads
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you said you jump started it before? What kind of car does your gf have? Something like a Corsa is going to need the nuts revved of it, to give it enough juice, as long as it has decent leads
NO! just a fast idle (say 1500 rpm) for a few minutes to get some charge into the Omega battery. The Corsa alternator isn't going to produce any more output be revving faster than that.
Domestic jump leads aren't really meaty enough to drive the starter motor but they are good for getting some charge into the battery.
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last time i bump started it by rolling it down a hill just spoke to DAZ he thinks i need to find sumone near me to wipe the codes off my car and read what is wrong is there anyone near Chadderton just out side Manchester who has a code reader??
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the leads are heavy duty 1s she has a 1.1 saxo left it ticking over for bout 10mins and it didnt do anything
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the leads are heavy duty 1s she has a 1.1 saxo left it ticking over for bout 10mins and it didnt do anything
10 minutes would do nothing to a flat battery, it needs a trickle charge for about 12 hours to get some power in it. A 1.1 Saxo is really going to struggle to jump something as big as the Omega.
I jump started Jimbobs 2.2 at the lakes few years back with a 3.0 24v Senator, that had to be revved to about 3k rpm to give it enough power to start, and that battery still had a fair bit of power left in it.
If you started it fine before, it really does suggest a dead battery.
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the leads are heavy duty 1s she has a 1.1 saxo left it ticking over for bout 10mins and it didnt do anything
Tick over won't do much. The output of an alternator is tiny at tick over but is much greater at fast idle. You need to get some charge into your battery because jump leads aren't going to shift the 150 amps that the starter wants.
Did you hear any relays clicking when you tried to start?
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so i need a bigger car to help start it or a new battery? even tho i have a fault code saying cam sonsor?
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so i need a bigger car to help start it or a new battery? even tho i have a fault code saying cam sonsor?
No.
Firstly you need to find out why the engine isn't turning over.
- You might have a flat battery. If it is a flat battery you need to get some charge into it. The jump leads and your GF's clit will do that for you but it will take longer than a bigger car.
- The battery might have died totally in which case you won'y be able to get any charge into it.
- The starter might developed a fault.
- Some other electrical malady might be interrupting the starter circuit.
Once you have got the engine turning over again you will probably still have a cam sensor fault and so should fit a new one.
Do you hear any clicking from the starter when you turn the key?
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bought a volt meter i am getting 12.3 from the battery so dont think its that
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Have a read of this maintenance guide http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225724099
The table at the bottom seems to show 12.3 volts as about 60% charged.
You still haven't answered my question as to whether you can hear any clicking when you turn the key.
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Hi guys I called out the AA who got the car started whoo!!!! they say its a starter motor relay does that sound righ?? Andy there is no clicking
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Hi guys I called out the AA who got the car started whoo!!!! they say its a starter motor relay does that sound righ?? Andy there is no clicking
It is the starter relay that makes the clicking noise (when its working)
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so that sounds like it then? would sum were like halfords have 1 or would it be a vauxhal only part?
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Did you see what he did to get it started?
If you are going to fix this electrical problem yourself you are going to have to be methodical. If the relay isn't operating then it could be a faulty relay or it could be something else in the electrical circuit. Don't assume anything unless you have checked it yourself & don't assume that something that was OK yesterday is still OK today.
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what he did was he had a tool which put power to the starter motor st8 from my battery then the car started as he did that
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Excellent, so we know that the starter works when 12v gets to the small terminal on the starter.
We also know that the starter relay doesn't click when you turn the key.
The relay is the most likely culprit but the ignition switch can fail sometimes.
I think the relay is up behind the glove box (but I am not certain). Hopefully one of the moderators can tell us where it is and what colour.
The big relays can be surprisingly expensive new, so I would want to test it before condemning it.
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great i will try and find it in the morning and see what happans
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Looking at the Haynes manual I can't see a relay :-/ apologies if I have spreading misinformation. :(
There doesn't appear to be a separate fuse for the starter feed so I would begin by testing the ignition switch.
Did I mention that it is important not to trust anything unless you have tested it yourself ::)
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Need to get them codes read me thinks :y
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getting lost so were will i find the ignition switch?? how do i test it
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getting lost so were will i find the ignition switch?? how do i test it
With your new multimeter :y
Have you read these guides?
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225659626
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225657771
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1213353737
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just had a look at them i am goin to kill my car for ever if i start takeing it apart like that could it really be the key barrel? :'(
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...... that could it really be the key barrel? :'(
It's the switch that it turns that could be your problem ;)
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Andy B have you dont this befor??? also do you have a code reader??
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You shouldn't need to take the barrel off the steering column, it is just the switch on the other end of it that needs looking at.
You do need to take the plastic shroud off and then disconnect the electrical plug.
You then need to work out which pin is which and check that an electrical connection occurs when you turn the key to 'start'. (we are expecting that that connection will not occur due to the switch being faulty).
On older vauxhalls the switch clipped on to the end of the lock barrel and was easy to swap over. It was so easy that car thieves learned that to steal a Vauxhall all you needed to do was break the steering lock, smash the plastic cowl & pull the switch off the back of the lock barrel & turn it with a screwdriver.
The first guide shows how it is still fairly simple to remove the switch as long as you have the key.
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Surely easier to find the relay, remove it, and test for voltage at the sockets when the key is turned ?? .. much less dismantling .. and my moneys on the relay anyway .. :)
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It was said befor that there is not a starter relay is that the case? is not the most likely thing to have gone wrong?
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would the relay be under the bonnet or under the steering wheel?
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I think I was wrong. I think the AA man was wrong.
I cannot find a starter relay on the wiring diagram.
Lots of cars have starter relays and they frequently cause starting problems so it would be something the AA man might be looking for.
But I think I was wrong, there doesn't appear to be a starter relay.
Sorry.
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right ok so i need to take the barrel apart to look at the switch
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All cars have a starter relay of some description .... just think about it ... there is absolutely no way 60-80 amps goes thorugh the ignition switch !!!!
So you turn the ignition switch which routes low current power to a relay which allows the very high current the starter needs.
not rocket science ... we just need to know where the relay is in this case !! :)
And looking at diagrams of the starter itself I think it is an "integral" part of the starter .. actually inside the bit that sits on top of the main starter body ... #8 in this picture ...
(http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/9553/starter.png)
This type used to be called a "pre-engaged" starter in my youth .... the relay pulls in and moves the Y shaped piece to engage the drive teeth on the flywheel, once it has moved far enough it make the electrical contact that makes the starter turn, when you release the key the Y piece retracts dis-engaging the starter ...
Well it was that way 30 odd years ago !!!!
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Thanks Entwood
I was trying not to move on to discussing the solenoid ::)
I agree that the solenoid is simply a hoofing great relay that just happens to be used to whack the the starter gear into engagement before it makes a big electrical contact but I really did believe that there was another relay hidden behind the glove box.
My old range rover has a pre-engaged starter with a solenoid on the side and it also has a relay which makes a very audible click when you turn the key.
My early Omega had a relay the clicked behind the glove box but with the benefit of a little reflection I now realise that it must have been the alarm imobiliser (it could stop the engine firing but it couldn't stop the starter from turning)
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Thanks Entwood
I was trying not to move on to discussing the solenoid ::)
I agree that the solenoid is simply a hoofing great relay that just happens to be used to whack the the starter gear into engagement before it makes a big electrical contact but I really did believe that there was another relay hidden behind the glove box.
My old range rover has a pre-engaged starter with a solenoid on the side and it also has a relay which makes a very audible click when you turn the key.
My early Omega had a relay the clicked behind the glove box but with the benefit of a little reflection I now realise that it must have been the alarm imobiliser (it could stop the engine firing but it couldn't stop the starter from turning)
Not a problem mate .... :y :y
I'm just thinking that IF the AA man attached 12V directly to the low voltage side, the solenoid pulled in and the starter turned.. then it proves the switch side must be where the fault lies.
I don't see how connecting 12V directly to the drive side would actaully start the engine, as the mechanism would not have "moved across" if you get my drift.. :)
So I'm starting to agree with you ... a fault in the low current side from the ignition switch down to the starter, which probably means the switch contacts or a broken wire .. ?? :)
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I'm pretty sure the only thing in circuit between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid is the gearbox inhibitor switch (if an auto).
Kevin
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right so i need a new starter motor? is that the easyest thing i think you have all guessed by now i know nout bout cars
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Andy B have you dont this befor??? also do you have a code reader??
Not on an Omega. :-/
I have a 'Cheapo TechII' ;)
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ryan ... unlikely as it worked for the AA man. :)
I'm guessing yours is a manual as you were able to bump start it down a hill, so you DON'T have the inhibit switch Kevin mentions.
So we come back to andy's original thought .. the ignition switch
This needs checking with a circuit tester by someone who knows how to use one properly, there are several knowledgeable folks around Manchester ... hopefuly one will volunteer .. :)
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Right ok is there any knowledgeable people around the manchester area who would mind helping me out you have all prob guessed by now i know nout about cars and i really need my car back on the road so any help would be great thanx
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If you have already been in contact with Daz I would recommend giving him another call.
I have one more possible cause. The Haynes manual shows one fuse (it is shown as FV4) that feeds the ignition switch. Sometimes old fuses can suffer from poor contact or partial failure and simply taking them out and putting them back in fixes the problem. Unfortunately I cannot work out where it is (the 3 main fuse locations are 1. under the steering wheel 2. in the triangular box with the ECU 3. in the square box on top of the battery).
When you turn the key from 'run' to 'start' the lamps on the dashboard would usually dim a little. If they all go out then I would suspect that the fuse was making a poor contact.
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How did you get on in the end ryan any update on the problems :question
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gave it to a friend who has fixed it pick the car up tonight once i know what was up will let you all know
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ITS FIXED WHOO!!! :D Hi guys it turns out it was a broken wire from the battery to the starter motor so all sorted now just wont to say thank you for all your help :y :y :y