Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: brian36 on 25 March 2010, 09:12:13
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hi is there anyone who has had this problem and managed to fix it ?
there are several members all seeming to have same problem, which after spending hours trying to find information on it have got nowhere.
spoke to 3 different vauxhall garages which seems to have been a total waste of time, their master tech mechanics all said same thing buy a new gearbox.
had the car at a transmission specialist who said he thinks its more electrical, consider changing car.
i like this car and surely we together can co-ordinate and find out what problems are, again on the internet it seems not just vauxhalls , many cars throughout world having same problem the codes P0730 Especially.
i spoke to vauxhall customer care, they suggested since the car is a 2001 that i consider changing it and that they have some good deals on at the moment. i asked if we can have some more information on the tag "INCORRECT GEAR RATIO" , she replied we have heard of this before but no one knows, can i suggest that we all try and locate one of these experts who fitted the gearboxes etc when cars were new, or the person who designed the system, either way we need to find someone out there that knows how to fix this problem economically.
so far 3 garage visits , 1 specialist, 1 vauxhall garage,3 pay for questions websites so far total £390 and got nowhere, everyone wants to take a piece but give nothing in return.
can i please ask can we find out about this problem, even if i can suggest that we all chip in and send one to a specialist and get to the bottom of gear ration problems, surely this would not cost us alot and be worthwhile.
if you are interested in helping please drop a reply and will liase with hotel21 on this, best regards
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can be as simple as low fluid causing that,
Has been when I have had it in the past.
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that was first thing checked and checked again at transmission specialist but no did not sole it thanks
hotel21 helped me with this code finding etc but tried for 2 weeks now to find out more and solve this.
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im sure some other people have fixed by changing the affected solenoid.
Tech2 / "My Naff Code Reader" checking can reveal if one is causing too much resistance.
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hotel21 got codes for me but so far been to trnsmission specialist who reckons could be electrical fault and auto electrician who reckons could be manual either way they want hundreds and don't know if would fix, i don't have hundreds to try.
excuse my lack of knowledge but can the tech2 find out by further investigation the actual root of problem so that if solenoid then can find what to do next.
thanks
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You're indeed not the only one scratching his head over this error at the moment.
Do you have any engine trouble codes as well?
My understanding is that this error means the gearbox ECU saw a mismatch between input speed and output speed. In other words, the ratio of the two was not consistent with the gear the box was supposed to be in.
This could have been caused, IMHO, by a "lazy" change due to low fluid level or pressure, a defective solenoid, perhaps a faulty output shaft speed sensor, "slipping" of the clutches within the gearbox due to wear or perhaps even an incorrect RPM indication from the engine ECU due to a failing crank sensor.
So, a bit of a "catch all" fault.
Basics need checking first. No engine fault codes, especially related to crank / cam sensor?
Gearbox fluid level correct and no debris in the fluid?
No thrust washer parts in the gearbox sump?
Selector switch operating OK, no flickering lights by the selector, not been through any floods recently? Might be worth tanking it off and giving it a clean anyway.
All electrical connections to gearbox secure? No obvious damage to the wiring looms?
Also, try to think in what driving conditions the failure occurred? What gear would it have been in, was it changing up or down, locking up or just cruising?
Other faults are raised by short/open circuits to the electrical actuators in the gearbox. Mechanical failure of a solenoid wouldn't be picked up by this, though. Possibly, high resistance of a failing solenoid or wiring might also slip underneath the radar. Worth buzzing through each solenoid circuit with a multimeter and noting the resistances.
Kevin
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thanks for that, will try coax hotel21 in to helping me get to the route of this i just spoke to gearbox specialist he reckons try sqeezing more fluid in as they are very touchy if not enough, and as i said to him does seem to happen more on corners or dropping speed or acceleration there seems only 1 code showing at moment p0730 and the gear selector lights seem fine not sure how to check the other bits you mention but will try find someone to do many thanks
BUT IF THERE ARE ANY MEMBERS UP TO THIS AROUND FIFE PLEASE DROP ME A LINE MANY THANX
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Please explain what is happening ie does the gear box change 'flare' between gears, if so between which gears, 1 to 2, 2 to 3 or 3 to 4.
regards
richard a
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hi, it drives almost normally meaning not the smoothest gear change but does seem to change up ok abit slow in going to 4th but all happenings are i feel coming off bend or taking up speed again. it happens by first thing i notice is rev counter surges up not sure whether gear has disengaged at that point or not the in split seconds you get a clonk from what seems back of me then nothing for a second or 2 then it takes up drive again usually in 3rd and only 3rd the warning light with spanner does come on but not all the time but if it does its when it goes to 3rd gear only it has once or twice sorted itself out and went on normally. but the only way i found to sort is to stop turn off ignition and restart then drives off again till next occassion. but as not long had car i cant measure it up how it used to be, but i have had omegas before and there is i feel a second or so gap between gear chages and not so smooth. as i said had atf checked but not 100% on whether they did right or not. thanks
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Yep, I've heard those symptoms described in relation to this code too.
First job is to make absolutely certain the fluid level is right (hot, with engine running!).
While you're there, drain a little fluid into a jam jar (by loosening the plug with the engine stopped) and check it for colour and debris.
Kevin
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yes, deffo check the fluid level 1st
Very similar to my experiences, and a fluid topup normally sorted for a while.
(I eventually changed the box, and found I was running an AR25 instead of AR35...no wonder it was enver very happY)
You do know you can drive it as a manual once the 'automatic' part has dropped out by moving the lever through the 1-2-3 positions I take it?
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thanks to both of you,
did have fluid checked there was a small amount of debris in fluid and will try again get topped up properly and yes canm drive 1/2/3 but would prefer this to drive as should eh, will keep trying thanks
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thanks to both of you,
did have fluid checked there was a small amount of debris in fluid and will try again get topped up properly and yes canm drive 1/2/3 but would prefer this to drive as should eh, will keep trying thanks
if you have debris then something is worn or broken. Can you describe it? metal filings?
IMO its up to you how to proceed, the only real course of action not needing too much specialist knowlege is to service the fluid and filter in the box. Then see how it goes.
If symptoms persist though this could be a waste of time and money as chances are the box is damaged, unless a solenoid can be found to be faulty.
I would suggest finding a mechanic who specialises in auto boxs, discuss the problem, suggest a fluid change and filter clean, any serious debris will become apparent at this stage. If no serious debris is found and the level and fluid is fine then look further. If he has suitable equipment (probably wont have tech 2, but bench testers are available) he can test the solenoids but this may well mean removing the valve body to check they move freely and dont stick etc.
But this will now start to get expensive at this stage, if i where you i would enquire on ar25 auto box prices and work your budget from there, compare box replacement v repair of yours. Early diagnosis will be key so dont let them string it out and spend a fortune on invetigation only to decide the box is fubar.
End of the day though, if it was me, i'd change the fluid and see if it sorts it, but i suspect you need another box, they are not too expensive from breakers on here.
hth
ps, be sure there are no engine codes present, esp cam sensor, these can upset the autobox on this engine.
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thanks i appreciate your help will look down track of re doing atf first see what transpires ,thanx
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Incorrect ratio is simply when the measured input speed, measured output speed, and the selected gear is implausible.
Input speed is via crank sensor, output speed is via sensor in box, selected gear is ecu derived.
This code is often mechanical or hydraulic so ATF first ;)
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thanks i appreciate your help will look down track of re doing atf first see what transpires ,thanx
fuchs titan 4000 is good Dexron 111 but you may prefer the cheaper Coma stuff until your sure its worth persuing.
Filter can be cleaned in parafin or similar.
Remove both sumps to got the the most fluid out possible, some will remain in the torque converter, unavoidable.
If it transpires its worth putting back together you'll need two gaskits to refit the sumps, or the correct instant gaskit will do to save costs.
Beware spilling the old atf, easy done and it stinks.
Best of luck.
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many thanks will get done asap thanx
:)
IS THERE ANYONE IN FIFE THAT CAN REPLACE THE ATF AND DRAIN SUMP ALSO CHANGE FILTER PLEASE ?
many thanks
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Make sure you get the 'people' to remove both the large and small sumps, the small one will have the remains of the 'thrust washer' in it if it has broken.
A clean filter and new Dexron 3 will ensure a 'level playing field', good luck.
regards
richard a
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many thanks will get done asap thanx
:)
IS THERE ANYONE IN FIFE THAT CAN REPLACE THE ATF AND DRAIN SUMP ALSO CHANGE FILTER PLEASE ?
many thanks
Brian - been busy with various things of late so been unable to persue as well as perhaps I ought.
If you get a hold of some ATF, same spec as I gave you, then we can do an autobox fluid change this weekend, weather permitting. Could also see if theres any thrust washer debris in the sump at the same time.....
Personally, I suspect a low fluid level and not a lot more, but willing to investigate further... :y
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thanks bruce,
will get some more atf .will have to get it sat morning but guess d&a or someone eh,speak soon,
all the best,
brian :)
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may be worth getting some live data / results of another auto to compare with before you drop the sumps....if there is a duff solenoid may save dropping sump twice (should the need arise to change parts)
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How many miles has the car done and has it ever towed?
Ignoring any codes your gearbox is displaying symptoms of worn clutch plates and the contaminated oil backs this up. Your symptoms appear mainly when coming out of a bend or accelerating,basically when under load.Again this points to worn clutch plates.Now of course this doesnt have to be the case but its more than likely.
Symptoms first appeared when driving the car home after purchase which again is not a good omen suggesting the car has been offloaded due to this problem.
Your quest is for an economical repair.
The fault code P0730 is also referred to as the gearbox death code due to investigations in most cases resulting in repair not viable due to cost.,worn clutch plates being one of them.
2 options. Firstly,the atf change as yours is certainly goosed but remember this is likely to be a symptom rather than the cause of the fault.You need to not just change but flush as much old oil out as possible and as the torque convertor retains a good deal of atf fluid when you drop the sumps,this means refilling and draining again at least once. I would say in your case twice and then fill again for the third time and then test the car.You need to see the fault gone at this stage not just improvement,just improvement would mean your still getting slip and gradually your going to `cook` the fluid again.If the fault goes completely,then brilliant news,don`t thrash it and it may stay happy for many more miles. So appx. 25 litres of atf fluid,new gaskets(rinse the filter)lots of mess,cursing at the number of bolts holding the sumps on and whatever £ you may be charged if your not doing it yourself.
Option 2,replacement gearbox(advertised on here between £80 -£150 recently) plus fitting, plus gaskets,filter,atf fluid,delivery of box or travelling to pick up or for fitting.
Actually there ought to be an option 3 which is cut your losses and put the car in the nearest auction(these are certainly buyer beware and you can almost expect to find an auto with a knackered gearbox)..
Good luck, you have a bit of hope with the atf change but i think your quest for an economical repair is gone if that option doesn`t work.
Any redress with the seller?
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thanks for last message will try sourceanother gearbox and see what cost involved, regarding the previuos owner not alot of hope he pleads ignorance to all.
told him as car not as described not just gearbox issue then make seek reward from small claims court towards repair. but will see.
will have a look see what its going to cost for gearbox, yes the car has towed and taking into consideration the response from previuos owner he aint got a clue about that either.
it happened today again although when the car revved i managed to teeze accelerator and it engaged again and carried on.
thanks
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Incorrect ratio is simply when the measured input speed, measured output speed, and the selected gear is implausible.
Input speed is via crank sensor, output speed is via sensor in box, selected gear is ecu derived.
This code is often mechanical or hydraulic so ATF first ;)
How easy is it to replace the sensor in the box and do we have any idea of cost of parts and number of hours to do? - has anyone tried this as a fix for the problem on this thread?
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Incorrect ratio is simply when the measured input speed, measured output speed, and the selected gear is implausible.
Input speed is via crank sensor, output speed is via sensor in box, selected gear is ecu derived.
This code is often mechanical or hydraulic so ATF first ;)
How easy is it to replace the sensor in the box and do we have any idea of cost of parts and number of hours to do? - has anyone tried this as a fix for the problem on this thread?
box speed sensor would throw a code if faulty, hence advice to interogate the auto box bia tech 2 while your at H21's pleasure.
TB is merely stating his extensive insite via tech 2 with this code, that being, the speed equation between box output and engine input via gear selected is outside a set perameter, the box knows sumats wrong, but what? the symptoms your experiencing is what.
Advice stands as i see it, visit Hotel 21, tech 2 the box, change the atf etc and go from there. HTH
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will be doing exactly that, if h21 free and weather good then hopefully we will succeed !
thanks to all and have a good day!
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I have just realised by reading another thread that you have already been down the atf fluid change route and then had the level checked by a transmission specialist and at some point someone has checked the fluid and found contaminants and it sounds like this was the transmission specialist checking the level which would be after your fluid change.You mention you thought there was a small improvement before it went pear shaped again.
No harm having an in depth tech 2 analysis though i would suggest another atf fluid change is now probably a waste of time and money .
If you get a replacement gearbox(a gearbox overhaul at a specialist will be big bucks) be sure to check its origin and trust the seller.
I dont suspect the speed sensors as they seem to be doing their job(highlighting the problem in the gearbox) and as mentioned would likely throw their own fault code.
So most likely imho clutch bands. Now this is one of the reasons that this fault code rarely gets cured as an overhaul to investigate and repair causes is not economically viable as a replacement secondhand gearbox from a good source is a much cheaper route.
Again,good luck,i understand your frustration and see you have already spent £390 to no avail. If you had got on the forum sooner i am sure you would have had a tech 2 analysis and a box in for around that.No matter the forum i am sure will get you that back in savings in the future.
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Personaly, to me, it does not sound like worn clutches and bands....it sounds like low oil pressure........
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And potentially curable by topping up the atf
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thanks for all your help folks, especially the bosses, its great that you take active assistance.
i will be trying the top up again,hopefully h21 will help?.
and while doing this can i ask, when can i put a wanted advert on for a autobox for this if problem or would any member like to exchange this for another abit cheaper maybe to sell this as parts, can i ask your views on this as to be honest need car and skint !!,
many thanks :)
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pity your not local :(
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thanks for all your help folks, especially the bosses, its great that you take active assistance.
i will be trying the top up again,hopefully h21 will help?.
and while doing this can i ask, when can i put a wanted advert on for a autobox for this if problem or would any member like to exchange this for another abit cheaper maybe to sell this as parts, can i ask your views on this as to be honest need car and skint !!,
many thanks :)
If you create a wanted add in the test area then I will move it to the for sale/wanted adds area for you
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many thanks, will do later today,thanks :)
ok more help please,
today i bought the trolley jack,axle stands etc and went to do atf check myself.
i done excactly as previuosly described and when i took plug out even with cat lifted a fair amount started coming out so i pushed in filler and got more in, i reckon i lost about 1/4 litre but got 1 in.
took it a drive, still wee probs,im no mechanic but now i believe its slipping gear rather than anything else.
the reason being when driving 3 times it did same it changed up gears all be it not really smooth but as i drove along revs went up and car now gone into neutral so i brought lever back to 3 and then put back in drive and off it went.
hope this makes sense to someone?
it drives ok using lever in 1/2/3 and when problems arise im almost 100% its going into neutral neutral.
thanks
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the atf level needs to be at the correct hight, engine running car level, select all gears ,while stationary of course, let the fluid poor out of the level hole until it stops, that is then the correct level.
You cant just chuck any old amount in.
What oil are you using?
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using fuchs dexron 3
got another litre this morning and i filled the way mentioned by marks dtm calib "how to check the auto box fluid level"
this car is driving me wacky!
had son moving lever slowly between gears as engine running and car up on axle stands at drivers side and securley chocked etc.
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using fuchs dexron 3
got another litre this morning and i filled the way mentioned by marks dtm calib "how to check the auto box fluid level"
this car is driving me wacky!
had son moving lever slowly between gears as engine running and car up on axle stands at drivers side and securley chocked etc.
did you have the car level at any point with the level plug undone so the excess can drain out?
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mmm i did bring car down slightly the put back up still running out last posts seem to think i need more,can it be slipping or going into neutral cause i have too much? now i am confused.
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mmm i did bring car down slightly the put back up still running out last posts seem to think i need more,can it be slipping or going into neutral cause i have too much? now i am confused.
its a level hole not a fill hole, so
jack car
remove level hole plug
start engine
slowly drop the car down via the jack until its level, or if the drive is level just let the car down slowly.
allow the excess to run out of the level hole until it stops and has found its own level.
switch off engine.
then re jack the car and refit the plug.
dont burn yourself on the exhaust.
level should now be correct
if there is no change, you need Hotel 21 and tech 2, and posiblly next step is to service the atf. remove the 2 sumps clean filter and check for debris etc refit anf re fill with new atf.
If the atf has got hot or is over 80k old it will probably be fubar. It does not last forever.
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And potentially curable by topping up the atf
ok re read, he's not sugesting over filling, but that the level may be low, hence topping up (to the level hole)
What colour is the old oil coming out? is it black? or is it as red as the new stuff going in?
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red thanx
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red thanx
ok,once you have the level correct then there is no more you can do at this stage.
The fact the box is fine while changing manualy sugests the box is mechanicaly ok IMO, although you mentioned debris which is concerning.
Get the car to Hotel21 next, and go from there. See if tech 2 shows anything, hopefully a cam or crank sensor fault in the engine ecu or a bad solenoid in auto box.
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ok will do many thanks for your help :)
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ok will do many thanks for your help :)
your welcome
see what others say re good manual changes though...
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good afternoon folks,
now then ,today i done again as directed down to the T.
i ran the car till temp up, jacked car up at drivers side, put tray underneath and undone plug.
there was about i guess 1 - 1 1/2 litres atf come out in total as directed i slowly lowered car till levelled out.
the atf stopped whilst waiting for it to stop i worked the gears back and forward using all gears. then jacked car back up and put plug back in.
i then took car for drive and seemed ok at first used auto then 1 2 3 gears but after about 10 mins whilst in drive the light came on and the car went into neutral as could rev but nothing happen, althoughh i could move gear lever and would go into 3 2 and 1. i then put back into drive and got small clonk from back and then obviously decided to go in gear but only 3rd limp mode,. i could still use 1 2 3 though,it only stayed in limp mode in drive.
i stopped car turned off and restarted car light went out and put into drive and away she went again.
to some this may seem abit strange to me its driving me to valium.
i have to say that before i removed the surplus atf the light had not come on since adding some,although the car still played up.
i am confused as to how come gears work 1 2 3 but not in drive?
does this mean more electrical than mechanical, h21 bruce when you read this can you let me know if you can put on tech2 again? see if any other codes appear.
many thanks.
last thing is although im in fife i will be going on job to ireland next sunday from carnforth in lancashire if there are any great mechanics out there i will be away for a week if anyone would like to fix this ? please !!!!
your views would be appreciated.
thanks to all!
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B - if you have the time, bring it around now and I'll plug the doofer in and see whats there.... ;)
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ok will be around 15 mins ,ta very much :)
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ok will be around 15 mins ,ta very much :)
this is very intrested read you have exact same symptons as me at mo what was the outcome please
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ok will be around 15 mins ,ta very much :)
this is very intrested read you have exact same symptons as me at mo what was the outcome please
*Cough*
Someone been dusting around here?
*Cough*
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ok will be around 15 mins ,ta very much :)
this is very intrested read you have exact same symptons as me at mo what was the outcome please
*Cough*
Someone been dusting around here?
*Cough*
sorry i replied to an old post as it was linked in another post i replyed to sorry