Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Ali Ch on 28 June 2010, 18:13:12
-
hi
i have omega 1996 2.0l, i had the management light on for a long while due to the oxygen sensor wires are damaged (tried to fix it but its ripped of off the sensor leaving a hole :S) and i could not get my hands on a new one.
few weeks ago it started to knock under load (even a slight load when accelerating smoothly) some times it keep on knocking even when doing steady speed of 40-50 km/h, it lasted for a few hours and it got back to normal. the next day it started knocking again, and this knocking thing kept one day on and another off, some time i can feel the engine performance change when i am at the traffic light.
i did the paper clip test and found the following:
0130 oxygen sensor
0135 oxygen sensor heater
1110 Switch over valve solenoid
0340 cam sensor
so i got new cam sensor last week, replaced it, engine performance is slightly better but the knocking/pinging did not stop.
now the codes only read the first three, the cam error is gone. i don't know about the 1110, i keep getting it each time i had a problem but it goes away when i fix all the other things.
the thing is, it some times work perfectly and all of a sudden it starts knocking, first i thought it is the knock sensor sending the wrong signal, so i disconnected it to get the timing fixed (assuming it was going back and forth) but that did not effect neither performance nor the knocking (it just registered a failed knock sensor with the codes).
i kept the knock sensor disconnected for a few days, and the behavior did not change either, some times ok some times not.
what else can i do??? my mechanic has no clue, he got me to change the fuel pump, cleaned and tested the injectors, and replaced the spark plugs. he "assumed" the problem to be in the fuel system because it tend to quit on me when it is hot as if i am running out of fuel (like 95 C, it used to run fine in this temp last summer, as the whether here is extremely hot, 55 C :S) or after a few hours drive (3-4), i give it a 2 to 3 min rest and it starts.
oh and another thing, when i first start the engine in the morning it misfires for a couple of seconds.
any ideas of what to be the problem??any tests i can do?? i ll appreciate any help, thanx in advance.
-
it maybe a bad connections either at the ecu or in the main wiring loom, check all sensor plugs and look for white copper if there need to clean it off. :y
-
I don't understand why you haven't fitted a new lambda sensor :-/
-
thanks for the reply
i ll check the connections first thing in the morning....
it is hard to find new parts for any car where i live...we replace failed things with second hand parts from chop-shops, which most of the time are failed too, i tried half a dozen cam sensors and they all didn't work...i had to wait two weeks for the cam sensor to arrive to the only dealer that imports them....and i am still waiting for him to get the lambda sensors :(....i have been waiting for it fore 3 months now (and he said its not genuine but from a Turkish maker) :-/....may be i ll make a trip to him tomorrow...i d like to see how the mgmt light behave when its knocking as its now always on because of it....
today it never worked properly...it kept on knocking :(
-
Ali, update your details with a location/Country, so we can help you better? :y
-
I don't understand why you haven't fitted a new lambda sensor :-/
Ahh. I understand now I can see your location.
I suppose import restrictions would make it difficult to source a replacement :(
-
hi again
couple of things i might left unmentioned (my bad)...
1-the car is loosing water, a 2 to 3 hours drive will get the bottle empty and it needs about 2l to fill it up....no traces of mayo any where ... so i was looking for the leek for a few weeks and keeping a spare water container in the car (did not find a thing till this morning when i was checking the wiring as samesame suggested ). the metal base of the power steering pump was wet, under the thermostat cover....i checked pipes for leek but it seems ok....i don't suppose the water can come from the head gasket???!!!!
2-the engine some time "run-on" when i switch it off...don't no if the name is correct, it does an extra cycle with a hard knock sound after the i switch it off
last year i had the head gasket blown with the same amount of water loss and no signs of mayo too....it was blown from the rear side of the engine allowing water to get into the piston chamber, and causing a lots of air bobbles in the water bottle (no bobbles this time), i read some where that head gasket can cause similar symptoms of what i am having (the knocking and run-on) :-/
regarding the results of the wire connections...no white copper....but i noticed if i unplug the knock sensor for a few minutes, when i connect it back the car runs fine for few minutes then it starts knocking again, i tried it three times, i can do about 200m before it starts knocking again :-? (the connection is clean, and i also used wd-40 on it) the last time i connected it it ran ok until i got home, don't know if it will come back but it did the hard knock (run-on) when i switched it off....so i am confused now, if those are symptoms to one thing or i am having a bad luck of a lots of failed things at once???? :-/
i ll do more detective work on the wires, may be its a cut ...
-
The thermostat housing has an o-ring seal onto the head, this may be leaking. Not likely if this was replaced during the last headgasket change, quite possible if it wasn't.
The running-on and pinking may be caused by the engine having run for some time (?) with no lambda/oxygen sensor info for the ECU to get the fuelling correct, thus causing carbon build-up in the cylinders.
To check for coolant going into cylinders, take out the spark plugs a few hours after the engine has run, and look down the holes with a small bright torch. Hope not to see any coolant on any of the piston crowns.
-
thanks for your reply :)
when i changed the spark plugs it had some carbon on it !!!!! but the mechanic (i doubt about his title) said its nothing to worry about....how can i know if it is the same inside the cylinders, and how can i fix that !!!!!
the water thing turned to be the thermostat housing....well there was no o-ring that fits it when i did the last head gasket, so we used a silicon gasket maker, and it is leaking now (was, as i just finished working on it). most of the water came out from between the rubber pipe and the lip, the lip is all corroded and salty, i cleaned it and cured it with some gasket maker but i thing i am gonna need a replacement if it leaks again :(
-
Ali......would there be many problems for you if parts could be sent out from the UK??
Many more places over here, and how about Ebay? do they send to your country??
Just trying to help you obtain a few more bits relatively cheaply and keep your car on the road where it belongs!!
Mike.
-
dont forget engines, vectra's have same engines and a few others types, can change parts to fit on omega, carborn build up can also be low fuel pressure, but also in hot places it can be thin air so would need to be adjusted to suite,,
-
would there be many problems for you if parts could be sent out from the UK??
the only problem is the coast....visa cards or similar services coast tonnes of money and comes with huge monthly fees, rendering it usable only by companies and government agencies...
i can make a bank transfer, but the min charge is 50$
and how about Ebay?
i think china branch ship to here....but i am stuck with the first problem
a friend tried a type of visa (prepaid cards, you buy, use it, and throw it away)...ordered some silly stuff (for testing) from ebay china, they told him it ll take a month to get here....i didn't ask again so i don't know if he had them or yet, it could be handy.
that leaves the coast of the shipping....i thing the options are limited (dhl, fedex,...). the coast is about 40$ per 1/2kg...that what i use when i order some expensive equipment over the net, not sure that would be useful for sensor that is a 50$ or so
now about the carbon build up...how can i make sure and what can i do????
-
would there be many problems for you if parts could be sent out from the UK??
the only problem is the coast....visa cards or similar services coast tonnes of money and comes with huge monthly fees, rendering it usable only by companies and government agencies...
i can make a bank transfer, but the min charge is 50$
and how about Ebay?
i think china branch ship to here....but i am stuck with the first problem
a friend tried a type of visa (prepaid cards, you buy, use it, and throw it away)...ordered some silly stuff (for testing) from ebay china, they told him it ll take a month to get here....i didn't ask again so i don't know if he had them or yet, it could be handy.
that leaves the coast of the shipping....i thing the options are limited (dhl, fedex,...). the coast is about 40$ per 1/2kg...that what i use when i order some expensive equipment over the net, not sure that would be useful for sensor that is a 50$ or so
now about the carbon build up...how can i make sure and what can i do????
Check the condition of all the sparkplugs. If they're all covered in thick carbon, you can probably assume that there's some all over the combustion chambers.
If you could run it with a working lambda sensor, that would probably burn off fairly quickly especially on a constant-speed part-throttle cruise.
One trick which you may not be brave enough to try is to let the engine suck some water into the inlet manifold (via a vacuum port) while holding the engine revs up (engine at full temp) :o. If any liquid water makes it to the combustion chamber it will 'flash evaporate' on contact with hot bits and knock bits of carbon off as it does so. Not sure with the down-and-up-again design of the 4-pot omega manifold this has any chance of working. Has been known to work on other engines...
Is it possible to obtain a generic 4-wire oxygen sensor where you are, bearing in mind that it is a titania one, not the standard zirconia type, I think?
-
An "old fashioned" way of removing carbon (de-coke) was to remove the spark plugs and put 5 cc of Upper Cylinder Lubricant (Redex) into each pot and leave to "soak" overnight. Then put some rags lightly over each plug hole and turn the engine over for 30 seconds - this throws out the oil and prevents "hydraulic locking".
Replace cleaned spark plugs and go for a start. If it doesn't fire, take out and clean the plugs agin .. they might have oiled up. Once it fires, allow it to warm up then take for a run and "drive it like you stole it" for half an hour.
It will smoke - lots - for about 10 minutes as you burn off the carbon and UCL - so mind the wives washing !!
The idea is the UCL softens the carbon and you then burn it off/blow it out
In the days of carbs one would gently trickle UCL in whilst holding highish revs, this smoked really well :) but cleaned the rubbish out nicely - used to be called a "redex decoke" .. :)
-
How about SeaFoam? I see the Americans are all excited about it. Personally, I have no idea. Snake Oil?
A YouTube clip showing an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzqohWTChwY
-
would there be many problems for you if parts could be sent out from the UK??
the only problem is the coast....visa cards or similar services coast tonnes of money and comes with huge monthly fees, rendering it usable only by companies and government agencies...
i can make a bank transfer, but the min charge is 50$
and how about Ebay?
i think china branch ship to here....but i am stuck with the first problem
a friend tried a type of visa (prepaid cards, you buy, use it, and throw it away)...ordered some silly stuff (for testing) from ebay china, they told him it ll take a month to get here....i didn't ask again so i don't know if he had them or yet, it could be handy.
that leaves the coast of the shipping....i thing the options are limited (dhl, fedex,...). the coast is about 40$ per 1/2kg...that what i use when i order some expensive equipment over the net, not sure that would be useful for sensor that is a 50$ or so
now about the carbon build up...how can i make sure and what can i do????
Ali Ch I notice in your posts to just adding water instead of recommended coolant. I believe this probably is not going to be too good in terms of corrosion and deposits build up.
I realize the difficulty you have getting authentic stuff but you need to have some anti-corrosion protection in your coolant/water specially to protect any pumps in the cooling loop as well.
In case it helps.
-
thanks for the tips
it was great until my father heard what i want to do.....he said the carbon bits falling will scratch the cylinder sides....any chance he might be right????
now if i am gonna try some thing....i ll go for the water.....i don't think i can find the other liquids easily, if some one had it, he probably don't now what it is, or mistake it for another thing.....i ll have to ask first though to see if they know of such things
now if the water didn't make it to the cylinder, it ll be trapped at the bottom of the intake manifold, right? is that a big problem ??? can i use one of the halls that brings vacuum to other things (like the one connected to the fuel regulation valve???? or is it too small, one can use the breather also???
or am i better leaving it to burn by its own??
still one thing...if it is a carbon build up, it would knock only when it is wormed up, is n't it? and it will be knocking all the time when it is worm, is n't it?? i am really not sure......it most of the time start knocking as soon the worm up cycle finishes (temp gauge still below 80) and i had plenty occasions when it worked very good when it is worm.
-
hiiii
i got a 2nd hand oxygen sensor today (the guy how suppose to import said he canceled the order because its too expensive and no one will buy it :(......
i changed it....and when i started the car the mgmt light went off after few secs....but it came back on as soon as i took of !!!! i stopped, turned off the engine and on again and the light is off, when i started moving it is on again !!!!......paper clip test give me the error (1327: Knock control cylinder 2 ????) ....what is this???? i can't seem to find it or why its happening....i googled and search here in the forum but nothing useful !!!
the knocking is as usual nothing changed, except the misfiring, yesterday (before i change the sensor) it kept misfiring (it was only the first few seconds after i start the car) now its all the time ????
testOmega: i some times (when its not leaking, and i don't know where from) mix the water with anti-freeze/anti-corrosion (well at least that what the container say)....as far as that anti-freeze part it works, i took it up north once and it was fine and didn't freeze overnight (-10C) but i don't know about the anti corrosion part. and btw, its still leaking and i dont know where from, but in less amount.
-
Ali...will give this one some serious thought, and consult my friends that are more knowledgeable than me. Don't worry, we will sort this for you, have patience.
-
try this take the battery off and remove the ecu from the black box, have a good look at the wires and the plug and socket, hot and cold weather make the copper shrink, also check the ecu temp sensor on the top off the ecu.
-
also check the ecu temp sensor on the top off the ecu
i can't find any temp sensor on the ecu......what it looks like and where its connected???
i was willing to make a full wiring check tomorrow.....i ll take samesame's advice, and probably check all the ecu wiring one by one with a multi meter, under day light :y its dark now
hot and cold weather make the copper shrink
do you mean shrinking will make the connections loose ??? and wires short???
-
some sensors are on out side but others are inside the ecu, shrinking when copper gets cold it shrinks a bit, and get brittle and bit can snap., when warms up dose not close all way back on to the spade and dose not give a good connection.
-
that will be tricky to find....
-
that will be tricky to find....
if you take your time and use trox key just look when the one in the ECU gose it get dicoloured brow black colour on its top ring, if has gone it more easyer to just get another ecu than replace it as can get damaged when replacing it as when made they use cold solder, and heat from a soldering iron can damage the new one unless you has a cold solder gun.
-
hiii again....
i just finished checking all the engine wiring, i never felt down to have good results, i was hoping to find a problem and fix it, but it is all in good condition.
i opened the ecu....nothing seems out of the ordinary, but one of the current drivers (four big ICs in the middle of the board covered with plastic peace) has a brown upper arch (not all of the ic) and a very small notch in the plastic casing, i first thought its fried, but when i inspected it thoroughly it seemed like a manufacturing imperfection (i asked couple of colleagues and they kind of agreed, we are electronic engineers :) ), we are not 100% sure, and i want your opinion, if weather such conditions are common or you can confirm it is fried. i have pictures of the ecu board, but i dont seem to be able to attach any files...where can i put it for you guys to see???
-
Hi Ali,
Generally speaking, being an electronics guy myself; a scorched and brown component is a bad sign, but have a look at covers and other circuitry around to see if there's any visible stains of something smoking there. I'm not sure about the internals in that particular ECU, but as you say it's some driver IC's. Maybe you could google the part number and maybe find some other data on it for in-circuit measurement?
I'm about to check my ECU for similar defects (re: my code 136 thread).
-
if any part on the electric board has a chip in it i.e resisters that will be a weak spot on board, black brow or blistered would say with out testing on a meter has failed and needs changing, if you have a pic of it it would help, if black on ends its getting weak and if black etc in middle then it was quick shock of volts.
-
it is TPIC2802.....serial to parallel current driver.......it is only brown on the top edge of the metal back!!! clean and shiny front and back.....what do you think guys???? should i get a new ecu?
(http:// http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/6311/dsc04854y.jpg )
(http:// http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/812/dsc04856s.jpg )
here are a larger versions of the pics :) if some one wants a closer look
http://img815.imageshack.us/img815/2562/dsc04854.jpg
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/5046/dsc04856e.jpg
-
the rest of the board is as good as new......i just couldn't be conclusive about that one ic :-/
-
think it may have over loaded heat wise on the back of it is it brown from bottom of the chip with gap? and colour of the lid inside would be brown as well above that chip.
-
and in pic looks as there is a crack or chip in the of center left part of the chip.
-
the bottom is nice.....so as the lid......it was covered with a small plastic cup (four of them) and a clip so as to be firmly attached to the metal body of the casing to act as heat sink (which i removed to check them)....the plastic cover was ok too
-
(http://i962.photobucket.com/albums/ae101/omgod1995m/dsc04854y2.jpg)
was meaing this.
-
yes....that what i first noticed...some times ICs do have such cracks when they come out of the factory, it would be only in its plastic case not in the chip inside....but if it was originally ok then this is due to over heating......i think i have to fetch some ecu and test it in my car before i attempt buying one.
now i have to look for a donator tomorrow :-/
-
gm dont do damaged chips in there stocks every iterm is checked, if there is a crack in a chip they dont last more than a year, have a few ecus here at home and none have any chips or cracks in any thing, would say that is the fault, air is getting it to the chip backerlight case when it crack make the micro wires move or snap.
-
That IC has at least been overheated. I don't know if it's due to lack of cooling or internal failure, but I would definitely change that IC or even the whole ECU.
That IC is an "Octal intelligent power switch with serial input". Datasheet: http://www.digchip.com/datasheets/parts/datasheet/477/TPIC2802-pdf.php
I don't have schematics for that ECU, but I reckon some malfunctions in that driver could cause all sorts of engine management problems.
-
can i just replace the ecu with one from another car???? i have this guy who sell them say that i have to re-program the ecu to work with the car security!!!!!
-
That depends if you have immobilizer or not. If you don't have that you can just swap it (with same part number ECU).
-
best to get same for same as dif plugs for dif ecu's
-
Why did you suddenly decide the ECU is the problem?
I have doubts whether there's anything wrong in there. If you can get a compatible one to try, I guess that would prove it one way or another though.
It has been running without a working oxygen sensor for how long? I think your trouble is more likely to be related to this physical situation.
Will it run well enough to drive it on a nice cruise to burn off some carbon?
Did you look down the spark plug holes for evidence of coolant in any of the cylinders?
-
hii...thanx for the reply
the car runs well, i just have to select the 1st gear and accelerate slooowly. when i reach 1800 rpm the knocking ceases and i can accelerate normally, but if the gear changes soon so that the rpm drops below 1800 it start knocking again. so i have been driving like that for quite a while.
i did about 300 km since i replaced the oxygen sensor, the run-on is reduced, but not completely gone. the knocking is now continuous, it been few days since its last correct functionality. and it started to wobble and misfire. which i think means the problem is getting worse.
as far as the water loss, i found three leaking points :S fixed one, but didn't find the time for the other two, one of them is behind the alternator.
and the pic in a previous reply is why i am trying another ecu, there is a good chance that two of the ICs is malfunctioning, the small ic has a similar but much smaller defect.
-
The reason I'm suggesting you check the possibility of a headgasket leak is that multiple coolant leaks could be a symptom of increased pressure in the coolant system. It certainly was on our car.
Best of luck.
-
hmmmm now you are making sense. i ll check it and see.
-
i changed the ecu today, and no change.
could some thing in the valves cause this??? i keep hearing people saying you have a faulty valve.
-
hi
i removed the spark plugs last night....did not find any water in the morning, you think that removes the head gasket possibility??
any one knew what is the meaning of the code (1327: Knock control cylinder 2) ????
thanks again :)
-
ok....that is weird....why i am getting an error code (1690:malfunction indicator lamp) ??????? a friend had a working knock sensor and he suggested that i replace mine to eliminate a malfunctioning knock sensor. when i finished the management light is on....took it for a ride and after a while the light turned off. i did the paper clip test and found this error (along with the old errors i had before, i don't seam to be able to reset the errors in any way)
did not drive the car for a long distance, but i thing the problem is still there :(
by "indicator lamp" they mean the light in the dash, i.e. the management light, don't they???
-
Ali Ch have you done a compression check on the cylinders? If so what was the pressure recorded for all?
You may be looking at a mechanical issue (stuck valve, partially open valve, etc.).
Specially the cylinder that is being flagged by the diagnostic messages.
Just thinking aloud.
-
no one has a compression gauge :(....all mechanics who suggested a failed valve said they have to open the cylinder head and take a look....seams more damage than fix to me!!!
still....the symptoms is on and off, if there is a stuck valve would it be stuck some time and free some time??? if it is stuck what it is going to take to fix???
another easy way to check may be???
-
Pump air from a compressor at say 100 PSI in the each of the spark plug holes consecutively by making an adapter (say out of a Spark plug)?
See which cylinder is dead when all valves are expected to be closed as the crank moves.
Perhaps someone else can describe it better.
-
hi again
i was trying to do a leak down test for the past few weeks, but with no luck. i found someone with a compression gauge, he tested but all he said that it is low, i could not get a number out of him. and my engine "mysteriously" broke his gauge. so i thought he did not know what he was doing, beside he did the test some how incomplete.
so i decided to open up and see what is going inside, and i was going to change the head gasket anyway. the head gasket was slightly broken between cylinder 4 and a nearby water hole. but nothing else is wrong with the gasket. the cylinder walls all seam shiny and clean. but i don't know what to look for exactly. if i am going to inspect the valves, cylinders, etc., what i should be looking for?? what are the good and bad signs??
what i can see now is a thin layer of carbon on the piston crown, and also on the very top of the cylinder wall, about 3mm wide.
thanks guys for the help :y
ps: in the last week, the knocking is some how less, it stops knocking when the rpm is above 1000, some times on less rpm (previously it used to knock up to a 1800 rpm), but the engine is wobbling hard and i can feel it in the steering wheel when the engine is idling. i can't use the AC too, it becomes heavy to drive and when the engine temp reaches 95 i can't stop and move again with the AC on, the engine knocks hard and stops rotating. i turn off the AC, and start and it works :-/
-
Maybe post some pics ?