Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: GaryBC on 23 July 2010, 16:33:52
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Having an oil leak from one side I have started pricing up the cost of fixing it - and have just had a WTF! moment!!
Here's a quote I've just received:-
Rocker cover gaskets 2 x 90511451 £36.60 each
Rocker cover bolt seal 16 x 90411826 £0.21 each
Inlet man gasket 2 x 90501652 £15.45 each
Inlet man gasket 3 x 90501653 £12.81 each
Inlet to plenum seals 1 x 9118135 £15.33 (set of 6 )
Black sealant 1 x 90485251 £4.71
The total cost would be £165.96 inc delivery.
So now I'm having a rethink! It seemed like a good idea to do both cylinder banks while I have access - maybe I'll leave the good (ie currently non-leaking) side! Aside from the cover gasket itself, which of the above would I not need if I only do the nearside bank?
Even more radical is this thought: If I just clean the breather system will it reduce the internal pressure sufficiently to slow the leak down enough to make it an insignificant drip?
If I DO decide to do the whole job, does anybody know of a supplier who can supply the set at a much reduced price?
Aside from the mess it is making in my driveway, it is tempting (at that price) to simply live with it and just keep topping the oil up!
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If you check the guide, it recommends only changing these bits;
Rocker cover gaskets 2 x 90511451 £36.60 each
Rocker cover bolt seal 16 x 90411826 £0.21 each
Black sealant 1 x 90485251 £4.71
Gaskets sound VERY expensive on the covers to be honest.
I will see if I can get a few more kits for the shop, are you in a hurry?
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I did the very same thing a short while ago. I changed the lot, whether they needed doing or not. The tops gotta come off in any event so I thought I'd might as well do it right.
Tis a lot of money I grant you for a few pieces of rubber BUT the way I looked at it, she's now back to "as new" condition gasket and 0 ring wise so as long as I keep them breathers clean....shouldn't have a problem again for quite some time....perhaps for as long as I have her.
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Its worth looking on ebay as you can buy a complete set for approx 60 pounds to do the complete engine
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If you check the guide, it recommends only changing these bits;
Rocker cover gaskets 2 x 90511451 £36.60 each
Rocker cover bolt seal 16 x 90411826 £0.21 each
Black sealant 1 x 90485251 £4.71
Gaskets sound VERY expensive on the covers to be honest.
I will see if I can get a few more kits for the shop, are you in a hurry?
.............and I would add getting a Trade Card would give you further discounts. Join:
http://www.autobahnstormers.org/
for £20 per year membership and believe me you will save that many times over! :y
In addition do not be tempted by pattern gaskets; they fail very quickly. Always fit genuine Vx ones.
Do not be tempted to run the car for an extended time with a cam cover leak as you will flood the plug wells and cause the dis-pack to fail. ;) ;)
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Its worth looking on ebay as you can buy a complete set for approx 60 pounds to do the complete engine
No its not, buy your camcover gaskets and O-rings from a Vauxhall dealer only or you will be doing the job twice :(
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so ...... the £36 is for a pair of gaskets enough to do one rocker/cam cover? (+ the other o rings)
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Thats retail money
Trade Prices are:
90511451 £31.15
90411826 £0.20
90501652 £13.91
90501653 £11.54
9118135 £13.04
90485251 £4.24
Postage £4.00
All inc VAT and are at VXM's current trade prices. NB these parts are not part of the Vauxhall Trade Club Program
Not alot of difference but as they say " every little helps"
Andy
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so ...... the £36 is for a pair of gaskets enough to do one rocker/cam cover? (+ the other o rings)
Yes, one bank in other words :y
You need two sets (£72 without TC) for both. ;)
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so ...... the £36 is for a pair of gaskets enough to do one rocker/cam cover? (+ the other o rings)
Yes, one bank in other words :y
thanks Lizzy. I now know how many to buy when/if my
(http://www.onlinebearings.co.uk/images/P/loctite_574_lg.jpg) fails ::) ::) ::) ::)
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can't see the O rings being that specific, maybe a well known manufacturer of beany commestibles would have a selection of said O rings floating about the stores. ;D
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can't see the O rings being that specific, maybe a well known manufacturer of beany commestibles would have a selection of said O rings floating about the stores. ;D
Possibly! ;D Ours tend to those from a generic set of all sizes, the cross section tends to be some what bigger than those in the cam covers. For 22p I reckon I could buy new from vx ;) :y
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can't see the O rings being that specific, maybe a well known manufacturer of beany commestibles would have a selection of said O rings floating about the stores. ;D
Possibly! ;D Ours tend to those from a generic set of all sizes, the cross section tends to be some what bigger than those in the cam covers. For 22p I reckon I could buy new from vx ;) :y
.......and they are just 15p plus VAT with TC :D :D :y
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Despite being slapped down i have done my MV6 and both my 2.5cdx cars from a supplier off ebay and after 40,000 after the change (2.5 v6) still no leaks. My electric fans on the MV6 have now stopped but thats a different matter. LOL
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can't see the O rings being that specific, maybe a well known manufacturer of beany commestibles would have a selection of said O rings floating about the stores. ;D
Possibly! ;D Ours tend to those from a generic set of all sizes, the cross section tends to be some what bigger than those in the cam covers. For 22p I reckon I could buy new from vx ;) :y
.......and they are just 15p plus VAT with TC :D :D :y
Thats retail money
Trade Prices are:
90511451 £31.15
90411826 £0.20
90501652 £13.91
90501653 £11.54
9118135 £13.04
90485251 £4.24
Postage £4.00
All inc VAT and are at VXM's current trade prices. NB these parts are not part of the Vauxhall Trade Club Program
Not alot of difference but as they say " every little helps"
Andy
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can't see the O rings being that specific, maybe a well known manufacturer of beany commestibles would have a selection of said O rings floating about the stores. ;D
Possibly! ;D Ours tend to those from a generic set of all sizes, the cross section tends to be some what bigger than those in the cam covers. For 22p I reckon I could buy new from vx ;) :y
.......and they are just 15p plus VAT with TC :D :D :y
Thats retail money
Trade Prices are:
90511451 £31.15
90411826 £0.20
90501652 £13.91
90501653 £11.54
9118135 £13.04
90485251 £4.24
Postage £4.00
All inc VAT and are at VXM's current trade prices. NB these parts are not part of the Vauxhall Trade Club Program
Not alot of difference but as they say " every little helps"
Andy
Well my dealer lets me have them with discount ;) ;)
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can't see the O rings being that specific, maybe a well known manufacturer of beany commestibles would have a selection of said O rings floating about the stores. ;D
Possibly! ;D Ours tend to those from a generic set of all sizes, the cross section tends to be some what bigger than those in the cam covers. For 22p I reckon I could buy new from vx ;) :y
.......and they are just 15p plus VAT with TC :D :D :y
Thats retail money
Trade Prices are:
90511451 £31.15
90411826 £0.20
90501652 £13.91
90501653 £11.54
9118135 £13.04
90485251 £4.24
Postage £4.00
All inc VAT and are at VXM's current trade prices. NB these parts are not part of the Vauxhall Trade Club Program
Not alot of difference but as they say " every little helps"
Andy
Well my dealer lets me have them with discount ;) ;)
Ah but we've not got your assets Lizzie ;)
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can't see the O rings being that specific, maybe a well known manufacturer of beany commestibles would have a selection of said O rings floating about the stores. ;D
Possibly! ;D Ours tend to those from a generic set of all sizes, the cross section tends to be some what bigger than those in the cam covers. For 22p I reckon I could buy new from vx ;) :y
.......and they are just 15p plus VAT with TC :D :D :y
Thats retail money
Trade Prices are:
90511451 £31.15
90411826 £0.20
90501652 £13.91
90501653 £11.54
9118135 £13.04
90485251 £4.24
Postage £4.00
All inc VAT and are at VXM's current trade prices. NB these parts are not part of the Vauxhall Trade Club Program
Not alot of difference but as they say " every little helps"
Andy
Well my dealer lets me have them with discount ;) ;)
Ah but we've not got your assets Lizzie ;)
hehehehehehe ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D That is probably why Pete I get most items discounted at my dealers, even in the past when I didn't have a TC! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;) ;)
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Despite being slapped down i have done my MV6 and both my 2.5cdx cars from a supplier off ebay and after 40,000 after the change (2.5 v6) still no leaks. My electric fans on the MV6 have now stopped but thats a different matter. LOL
I'm please for you :y. Were they genuine parts, or pattern.
We see a lot of V6 owners on this site, and those using pattern gaskets seem to have a very low success rate when it comes to making them last more than a year. Thats why we passionately recommend using genuine gaskets for this particular job :y
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If you check the guide, it recommends only changing these bits;
Rocker cover gaskets 2 x 90511451 £36.60 each
Rocker cover bolt seal 16 x 90411826 £0.21 each
Black sealant 1 x 90485251 £4.71
Gaskets sound VERY expensive on the covers to be honest.
I will see if I can get a few more kits for the shop, are you in a hurry?
If you can get a good price on them, I am in the market for some...
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Foolishly, when I was last on the phone to Autovaux getting bits for my head swap, I forgot they dont supply geniune cam cover seals and ordered some. The previous time they supplied Elring and they didn't last very long. Was expecting the same this time round, kicking myself, but what has turned up are Victor Reinz seals. Anyone tried these before? Never heard of them myself. They're German, so must be good, right?:) They even have a hologram label :o ooooh - presumably to distinguish them from the cheap tat. They feel quite soft and rubbery whereas I think the previous ones felt more shiny and plasticky. I could just be totally fabricating such memories to justify to myself what I think I'm goin to do next - take a punt on them :y I'll report on their performance anyway.
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Thats retail money
Trade Prices are:
90511451 £31.15
90411826 £0.20
90501652 £13.91
90501653 £11.54
9118135 £13.04
90485251 £4.24
Postage £4.00
All inc VAT and are at VXM's current trade prices. NB these parts are not part of the Vauxhall Trade Club Program
Not alot of difference but as they say " every little helps"
Andy
Just got today cam cover gaskets @ £26 ea + VAT, the 8 o-rings @ £0.15 ea + VAT and the black goo for £3.70 + VAT from local Vx dealer using my TC card!!
HTH
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Thats retail money
Trade Prices are:
90511451 £31.15
90411826 £0.20
90501652 £13.91
90501653 £11.54
9118135 £13.04
90485251 £4.24
Postage £4.00
All inc VAT and are at VXM's current trade prices. NB these parts are not part of the Vauxhall Trade Club Program
Not alot of difference but as they say " every little helps"
Andy
Just got today cam cover gaskets @ £26 ea + VAT, the 8 o-rings @ £0.15 ea + VAT and the black goo for £3.70 + VAT from local Vx dealer using my TC card!!
HTH
You must have my charm as well dbug! ::) ::) :D :D :D :y :y
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Despite being slapped down i have done my MV6 and both my 2.5cdx cars from a supplier off ebay and after 40,000 after the change (2.5 v6) still no leaks. My electric fans on the MV6 have now stopped but thats a different matter. LOL
I'm not slapping you down, i'm just saying its really not worth the risk of buying none genuine gaskets ;)
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you would have got them at trade prices, not trade club...
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Thats retail money
Trade Prices are:
90511451 £31.15
90411826 £0.20
90501652 £13.91
90501653 £11.54
9118135 £13.04
90485251 £4.24
Postage £4.00
All inc VAT and are at VXM's current trade prices. NB these parts are not part of the Vauxhall Trade Club Program
Not alot of difference but as they say " every little helps"
Andy
Just got today cam cover gaskets @ £26 ea + VAT, the 8 o-rings @ £0.15 ea + VAT and the black goo for £3.70 + VAT from local Vx dealer using my TC card!!
HTH
You must have my charm as well dbug! ::) ::) :D :D :D :y :y
Well known for my charm Lizzie - but haven't got your assets ;)
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Not a huge difference between what you got and Andy's TBH ..
Andy's .. £31.15 inc VAT
Yours .... £26 + VAT = £30.55
I know "every little helps" .. but .60p in £30 is not a lot !! :)
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but what has turned up are Victor Reinz seals. Anyone tried these before? .....
They are the OE supplier of cylinder head gaskets for a C30SE engine ie Senator/Carlton 24 valve :y :y :y
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If you check the guide, it recommends only changing these bits;
Rocker cover gaskets 2 x 90511451 £36.60 each
Rocker cover bolt seal 16 x 90411826 £0.21 each
Black sealant 1 x 90485251 £4.71
Gaskets sound VERY expensive on the covers to be honest.
I will see if I can get a few more kits for the shop, are you in a hurry?
Hmm... that's odd. I'm sure it was the guide where I got the part numbers from!! I don't have it in front of me but I'm sure it says something to the effect, "I've never had to change these but I always have them to hand in case I need them" - which would be my philosophy and the reason they're on my shopping list. If I don't need them it pretty much halves the bill!! (It halves it again if I only fix the leaky side - but that's probably a 'saving' too far!!)
The only hurry I'm in is that I'm pouring oil in the top at the rate of a litre or so a week and that is making a right old mess of my drive and the side of my engine (plus any real damage hot oil is doing to the rubber and plastic parts it settles on). I guess a few more weeks won't hurt.
Incidentally. Where does the "DTM Calibration" bit of your user-name come from?
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Well this one has certainly sparked some discussion on the value of pattern gaskets!! The considered opinion seems to be to use Vx parts for this particular job - and I can see the reasons why!!
What nobody has picked up on is whether clearing out the breather paths will reduce the internal pressure and slow (or even stop) the flow of oil past the gasket. To my simple mind if there's no pressure drop across the gasket, there can be no flow! (Possibly a bit of seepage maybe, but not the Gulf of Mexico I currently have!) Any views on this bit? And from what I have read here a breather clean is pretty quick and straightforward.
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Doing them now won't hurt, may not help your leak but needs doing anyway.
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Doing them now won't hurt, ....
Too dark now to see what you're doing! ::) ::) ::) :y
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Doing them now won't hurt, ....
Too dark now to see what you're doing! ::) ::) ::) :y
He may have a nicely lit garage. ;D
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He may have a nicely lit garage. ;D
I do, but I can't get my car in it :-? :y :y :y
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As I understand it ... but probably wrong ... the gasket "forms" (flattens?) itself to the face of the head when first fitted and so makes a good seal.
If the pressure then builds up due to poor breathing, the gasket "pops" - like a safety valve - somewhere along its length.
From that point on it will NOT "reseal" and will leak, either by pressure if the breathers are not cleaned.. or by capilliary action if they are.
Once they leak .. they continue to leak ...
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I would say the original gaskets have probably hardened with time and that cleaning the breather wouldn't have much of an effect.
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Not a huge difference between what you got and Andy's TBH ..
Andy's .. £31.15 inc VAT
Yours .... £26 + VAT = £30.55
I know "every little helps" .. but .60p in £30 is not a lot !! :)
Better in my pocket than Vx, and a lot cheaper than retail :y
Not really questioning Andy's prices, more pointing out difference compared to retail - and only posting on this topic as got a very recent receipt to hand for these items.
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Cleaning breathers is unlikely to cure current leak, but you really, really, really do need to clean them when you replace the gaskets, before starting the engine.
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As I understand it ... but probably wrong ... the gasket "forms" (flattens?) itself to the face of the head when first fitted and so makes a good seal.
If the pressure then builds up due to poor breathing, the gasket "pops" - like a safety valve - somewhere along its length.
From that point on it will NOT "reseal" and will leak, either by pressure if the breathers are not cleaned.. or by capilliary action if they are.
Once they leak .. they continue to leak ...
My theory is that a new seal is elastic enough to seal perfectly but over time it both hardens and sticks to the metal surface. If there is enough pressure to unstick it and start the leak then capillary attraction draws oil into the joint and it behaves like a wick thereafter.
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As I understand it ... but probably wrong ... the gasket "forms" (flattens?) itself to the face of the head when first fitted and so makes a good seal.
If the pressure then builds up due to poor breathing, the gasket "pops" - like a safety valve - somewhere along its length.
From that point on it will NOT "reseal" and will leak, either by pressure if the breathers are not cleaned.. or by capilliary action if they are.
Once they leak .. they continue to leak ...
My theory is that a new seal is elastic enough to seal perfectly but over time it both hardens and sticks to the metal surface. If there is enough pressure to unstick it and start the leak then capillary attraction draws oil into the joint and it behaves like a wick thereafter.
Yes Andy and Entwood, I think you are both right. Certainly whenever I have removed the old gaskets from the cam covers they are hard, brittle, and very rarely stay in one piece ::) ::) ;) ;)
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Despite being slapped down i have done my MV6 and both my 2.5cdx cars from a supplier off ebay and after 40,000 after the change (2.5 v6) still no leaks. My electric fans on the MV6 have now stopped but thats a different matter. LOL
Who?
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Cleaning breathers is unlikely to cure current leak, but you really, really, really do need to clean them when you replace the gaskets, before starting the engine.
They will defo get cleaned when I do the gaskets! I was just wondering if there was worth cleaning them while I am sourcing gaskets at the right price. Looking at the How To guide here would suggest that it is a pretty straightforward job in it's own right.
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Certainly on mine .. with all the "stuff" you have to take off to get to just one side .. LPG, inlet manifold etc etc ... I would only consider doing both whilst in there .. the additional time/cost is peanuts compared with having to do the "other" side a few months later...
Found that the hard way when the first time I did them the passenger side one leaked on reassembly .... pain in the neck to take it all apart just to reseat the half-moon .. :(
Just my views .. nowt else . :)
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Make sure that the dealers give you 4 FOUR cam cover gaskets, not a pair, as in two cam cover gaskets in 1 pack......ask me how I know, go on, ask....... >:(
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Make sure that the dealers give you 4 FOUR cam cover gaskets, not a pair, as in two cam cover gaskets in 1 pack......ask me how I know, go on, ask....... >:(
Ok. "How do you know this?" (Well, someone had to!!) ;D
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has anyone said whats caused the leak in the first place (presumably pressure build up) or is it just assumed its age related? worth checking?
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has anyone said whats caused the leak in the first place (presumably pressure build up) or is it just assumed its age related? worth checking?
It is a bit of both! The breathers get bunged up so the internal pressure builds. Add to this some age-related degeneration of the rocker cover gasket resulting in a weak point and, hey presto - a gusher!!
From the posts I've read of those who have done this job (and I will be joining their ranks very soon!), the gaskets are not up to much in the first place! I can't think of an excuse on Vx's part that will account for using a material that fails so easily!
And as for the breathers getting bunged up so easily - it is tempting to fit a vented filler cap full of wire wool (just like the old days)!!