Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: albitz on 30 July 2010, 11:50:58
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My LPG tank is a 60 litre version,I would like to install a larger one at some point in the future to give a longer range/less trips to the filling station (my nearest is about 10 miles away) what are options please ?
Also I think my system might need a bit of tweaking. During the recent hot weather it took about half a mile from cold to switch to LPG. Yesterday when it was quite a bit cooler than it has been recently it took almost a mile and a half from cold start to switch over. :-/
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torpedo or donut?
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Torpedo.
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Here's a good idea of what's available:
http://www.tinleytech.co.uk/sizes.html
360x892 80L fits nicely and still room to fit long items through folded-down rear seats.
The 400x930 100L tank would be about your limit, IMHO.
Note I haven't tried it, but based what I recall from when I was measuring up.
The tanks also only fill to 80% so expect about 64L fill from an 80L and 80L from a 100L tank.
Kevin
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I have the 400x892 (IIRCC) 90L tank and, TBH, I wouldn't recommend it. The 80L mounting points fall much more nicely :y
That said, as you haven't got the Bose amp and shelf it wouldn't be such a problem.
Be aware that the certificate for your system will become invalid as it has the tank serial number on it :y
Also I think my system might need a bit of tweaking
What you working this weekend? PM me a number and I may be able to have a look on the way back from London on Sunday. Failing that we'll arrange something for next weekend. Check you haven't got another airlock ;)
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i believe mine is an 80 or 85 litre tank. Fills to about 68 litre? It fits nicely between the suspension turrets. Can't say that I can fit long items past it though. In fact i've had to resolve the problem of accessing the boot release in case the switch doesn't work - I have short arms and there is no way i can reach the latch on the bootlid from the seats over the top of the tank - B&Q's finest bathroom light switch pull-chord tied to the latch and tucked in behind the seats ;D Ugly solution but effective :y
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I have the 400x892 (IIRCC) Check you haven't got another airlock ;)
Not wanting to hijack the post, but how would you check for that?
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Was just getting excited at the thought of a 90L tank,didnt realise that the change would invalidate the certificate.Will have to have a bit of a think. :-/ :-/
Paul, your an absolute gentleman :y :-*...........Im working 7.30 pm to 730am tonight/Sat./Sun. Not working again until next Sat. and Sun- 7.30am tp 7.30pm.
So I will be around during the day this weekend, or if your coming back up the A12 early evening, I work 5 minutes from the A12, could go into work early and meet you there if it makes life easier for you, whatever suits you best basically.
Will PM you my number.
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I have the 400x892 (IIRCC) Check you haven't got another airlock ;)
Not wanting to hijack the post, but how would you check for that?
With the engine at operating temp. squeeze the heating supply pipes to the gas evaporator vigorously for a few seconds. If they get noticeably hotter & stay that way, you had an air lock which you have now removed :y
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I have the 400x892 (IIRCC) Check you haven't got another airlock ;)
Not wanting to hijack the post, but how would you check for that?
With the engine at operating temp. squeeze the heating supply pipes to the gas evaporator vigorously for a few seconds. If they get noticeably hotter & stay that way, you had an air lock which you have now removed :y
And the top hose ;)
Thanks Phil... Yep, I was referring to coolant flow as Albs had an airlock before :y :y
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If not an elite with self levelling I wonder if too big a tank will be too heavy for the rear suspension?
Seem to remember James fitting a 100 ltr in his cdx then asking about spring assisters as the back was too low. Then reading that the tank was nicked from his back garden, so he had taken it out.
Could just have been tired springs I suppose?
LD has an elite iirc.
Another thought, if only a 60 litre cylinder, may as well have fitted a donut in the spare wheel well and kept the boot/through space, as mine is 60 ltr and still have all ny boot. :y ....although donuts are more money to buy.
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Update on the LPG runnimg problem.Every time I start it now it takes a long time to switch over.The coolant pipes (evaporator supply ?)are always cold, if I burp them they get hot and then the LPG kcks in. After talking to LD by PM (and also Daz on the phone)I went out and had a bit of a poke around. The pipe going into the HBV was hot, the bottom pipe from the other side of the HBV was also hot ,but the top pipe of the 2 (which is the one which has a tee to supply the LPG system) was cold. I swithched on the climate and put it on HI. The cold pipe immediately got hot (as did the cabin) and the LPG kicked in straight away.
My question is, does this mean there is a fault with the HBV or could it be something else ? No sign of leaks from HBV nor any loss of coolant btw. I can also feel vacuum at the HBV vacuum pipe. Does the HBV go wrong internally ? :-/
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Update on the LPG runnimg problem.Every time I start it now it takes a long time to switch over.The coolant pipes (evaporator supply ?)are always cold, if I burp them they get hot and then the LPG kcks in. After talking to LD by PM (and also Daz on the phone)I went out and had a bit of a poke around. The pipe going into the HBV was hot, the bottom pipe from the other side of the HBV was also hot ,but the top pipe of the 2 (which is the one which has a tee to supply the LPG system) was cold. I swithched on the climate and put it on HI. The cold pipe immediately got hot (as did the cabin) and the LPG kicked in straight away.
My question is, does this mean there is a fault with the HBV or could it be something else ? No sign of leaks from HBV nor any loss of coolant btw. I can also feel vacuum at the HBV vacuum pipe. Does the HBV go wrong internally ? :-/
Your evaporator has been plumbed in incorrectly! Have a look at this from Lazydockers Howto on LPG Installation.
You need to take a coolant feed for the vaporiser. From experience, the best way to do this for the Omega is to intercept the coolant feed to the HBV and plumb the vaporiser in series (before the HBV) than to Tee into the heater pipes as suggested by most kit manufacturers. So, remove the "Helter Skelter" pipe and cut it so that you have a feed and return pointing towards where you have chosen to mount the vaporiser (O/S inner wing seems to work well)
(http://i863.photobucket.com/albums/ab197/philrich1064/4467166437_ece2bb4251.jpg)
Connect the coolant hoses to the connectors showing in the above picture and route them to where the vaporiser is going to be mounted.
HTH :y
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But the system has been on the car for 2 years , this problem has only appeared in the last few weeks. :-/
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Your evaporator has been plumbed in incorrectly!
Agreed. Some muppet has plumbed it in after the HBV so it only gets coolant flow when the climate is calling for heat. ::)
All installs we have DIY'ed we have plumbed the vapouriser between the outlet on the coolant bridge and the HBV so it gets flow regardless of whether the heater matrix is in the circuit or bypassed.
Kevin
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There you go then Albs get the pipe swapped around then Happy Days :y
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I will have to spend a bit of time making certain that I havent got my wires crossed, I only had a quick poke around today. What Phil and Kevin are saying makes sense in one way, but the car has been running fine with its current plumbing setup until a few weeks ago, which doesnt add up to me, if it was plumbed wrong from installation it should have had the problem since day one. Which is why I want to do a more thorough check of my findings.I will try to do this tomorrow and report back. :y
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I will have to spend a bit of time making certain that I havent got my wires crossed, I only had a quick poke around today. What Phil and Kevin are saying makes sense in one way, but the car has been running fine with its current plumbing setup until a few weeks ago, which doesnt add up to me, if it was plumbed wrong from installation it should have had the problem since day one. Which is why I want to do a more thorough check of my findings.I will try to do this tomorrow and report back. :y
Ok lately it has been quite hot weather so have you had the heaters on cold? or air con on? in which case the water would be cold going to your evapourator (hope I am right here as I hate Gas ;D ;D). So when you turn on your heaters to Hi the LPG would then work properly :)
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If all else fails, we'll meet up early next week and have a look see ;) ;)
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Your evaporator has been plumbed in incorrectly!
Agreed. Some muppet has plumbed it in after the HBV so it only gets coolant flow when the climate is calling for heat. ::)
All installs we have DIY'ed we have plumbed the vapouriser between the outlet on the coolant bridge and the HBV so it gets flow regardless of whether the heater matrix is in the circuit or bypassed.
Kevin
Aaeye, coolant bridge too vap, vap to hbv.
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Your evaporator has been plumbed in incorrectly!
Agreed. Some muppet has plumbed it in after the HBV so it only gets coolant flow when the climate is calling for heat. ::)
All installs we have DIY'ed we have plumbed the vapouriser between the outlet on the coolant bridge and the HBV so it gets flow regardless of whether the heater matrix is in the circuit or bypassed.
Kevin
Aaeye, coolant bridge too vap, vap to hbv.
As it is now, the vaporise cooling will depend entirely on the hbv settings which are controlled by the climate control. Fiddle with the climate, and the hbv can turn off cooling to the vap.
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As it is now, the vaporise cooling will depend entirely on the hbv settings which are controlled by the climate control. Fiddle with the climate, and the hbv can turn off cooling to the vap.
Yes, and remember that the climate panel will use the heater in conjunction with the air con to achieve the correct temperature, since the air con is not controlled. It's only in the hottest weather that the climate panel would shut off the HBV completely, hence the problem only occurs sporadically.
Kevin
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As it is now, the vaporise cooling will depend entirely on the hbv settings which are controlled by the climate control. Fiddle with the climate, and the hbv can turn off cooling to the vap.
Yes, and remember that the climate panel will use the heater in conjunction with the air con to achieve the correct temperature, since the air con is not controlled. It's only in the hottest weather that the climate panel would shut off the HBV completely, hence the problem only occurs sporadically.
Kevin
And would sun sensor alter it with no input from the driver?
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Right then - I have taken the plenum and fanimold off so that I can see whs what and have observed the following.
1. The pigs tail pipe which comes from the coolant bridge and goes into the HBV from the n.s hasnt been cut into in any way, it is as original.
2.The lower pipe which comes out the o/s of the HBV splits into two.One goes off to the back of the engine under the coolant bridge,the other goes through the bulkhead to the matrix (presumably)
3.The upper pipe which comes out of the o/s of the HBV goes into the side of a cylindrical shaped thing (dont know what its called :-[) which has an electrical plug attached to the bottom and another pipe which comes out of the top and goes to the evaporator (it is the lower of the three pipes on the face ofthe evaporator) the middle of the three pipes on the evaporator is the LPG supply to the injectors. The upper pipe has a tee, one side of which goes to the coolant expansion tank, and the other side to the transfer pipe.
I presume that this isnt quite right and I need to take a pipe off the "pigs tail pipe and connect this to where the HBV upper pipe goes at present ? and then reconnect the HBV pipe to where it originally went. Not sure from memory where that is but im sure there is a pic. somewhere.
Does the rest of the plumbing sound ok or will that need changing also ? :-/
Where can I buy tee connectors etc to alter the plumbing ? cant imagine Hellfrauds selling such things. :-/
This may have become apparent because unlike most people I rarely have the climate control switched on, I prefer to put the window down and have some fresh air, I only use it on LO if its reall hot, and since I got the car it hasnt been cold enough to need to use it for heat. If JCB and the previous owner were like most people and normally had the CC on and just adjusted the temp to suit, then they may never have known there was aproblem.
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Sounds like someone's made a right pig's ear of that, but, importantly, the evaporator is fed after the HBV, so it will only get a feed when the heater matrix has hot water.
Sounds like they've had problems getting it to bleed as well, and added a tee up to the expansion tank.
The unidentified cylindrical device is the aux. coolant pump for the winter pack, by the way.
I have a drawer full of "T" pieces. If you want a couple PM me your address.
Having said that, the reason I have a drawer full is that we found it's best to do it another way on the Omega and hence don't use the ones that come in the LPG kits!
On all Omegas that have been DIY converted with Teilo's kits we have intercepted the pipe fr5om the coolant bridge to the HBV and fed this via the vapouriser and left everything else original (except I removed the coolant pump).
Kevin
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If you could take a photo of the plumbing it might make it easier to explain how to make it right. :y
Kevin
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I will try and take some pics and upload them Kevin (a major task for a tecnoretard like me) :-[ ;D it may have to wait until tomorrow now as I need batteries for the camera which involves a trip of a few miles to a shop which sells them.
Thanks for the input so far, Im wondering if I should be patient until LD has a chance to have a look, but you know how it is when you start into something, you want to fix it before putting it all back together. ::) ;)
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Halfords sell big boxes of T-pieces, Y-pieces and pipe joiners up to (if I recall) 19mm in size.. at least in large Halfords, they do.
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I will try and take some pics and upload them Kevin (a major task for a tecnoretard like me) :-[ ;D it may have to wait until tomorrow now as I need batteries for the camera which involves a trip of a few miles to a shop which sells them.
Thanks for the input so far, Im wondering if I should be patient until LD has a chance to have a look, but you know how it is when you start into something, you want to fix it before putting it all back together. ::) ;)
You're welcome to stick it all back together and wait 'till I can make it down but I would just get on with it ;)
You need to intercept the "Pig's Tail" pipe, take it to the lower of the coolant inputs at the Vaporiser and then return from the higher one to the HBV. Then repair the other pipes. Re-fill and bleed... Job done :y :y
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I agree LD, now Ive got this far I might as well try and finish the job.It sounds reasonably straightforward, I think its been overcomplicated the way its been done. If I get stuck I will try to upload some pics for advice.
One question - when I take the coolant return from the upper outlet on the vapouriser to the HBV where do I connect it on the HBV ? back into the "pigs tail pipe" or into one of the pipes coming out the other side ? and if its one of those two do I tee it into the upper or lower one? :-/
Looking on the bright side I have done an "interim" tidy up of the wiring etc. today. I have moved the ECU down underneath where the air filter sits (near the bagpipes and bottom rad hose) its the only place I could see to put it for the moment without shortening some wires and lengthening others. I have rerouted quite a few wires and hidden some out of the way so there isnt an enormous bundle of wires cable tied together in front of the cambelt cover.This will also allow the air filter housing to be able to sit on its mountings which it wasnt doing with the ECU stuck in between it and the expansion tank.
I also fixed the leak at the LPG tank last week which has not only got rid of the farty smell in the car, but it seems to have noticably improved consumption, which had been slowly getting worse and I didnt know why. ::) :)
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Take the coolant from the vap back into the other half of the "Pig Tail" pipe so the coolant flows through the vaporiser before the HBV. Then just re-join any pipes as required ;)
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Albs, just to clarify things i've amended the picture. Sorry for the state of it, never used MS Paint before :-[
kind Regards, Phil. :y
(http://i863.photobucket.com/albums/ab197/philrich1064/EvaporatorPiping.jpg)
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Albs, just to clarify things i've amended the picture. Sorry for the state of it, never used MS Paint before :-[
kind Regards, Phil. :y
(http://i863.photobucket.com/albums/ab197/philrich1064/EvaporatorPiping.jpg)
Except you should fill the vaporiser from the bottom connector to reduce the chance of airlocks so switch which cut pipe goes to the vaporiser and from :) ;) :y :y
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Morning everyone, its time for todays episode (number 43?) ;D
First thing to do imo is to put the parts of the cooling system which have been messed about with back to standard. Then its simply a matter of cutting into the pigs tail pipe and running pipework into and out of the evaporator?
I dont have a standard car here to compare, and there are bits of pipe and joiners all over the place so I have a couple of questions.
1.Does the upper of the two matrix pipes go into the side of the aux. pump?
2. does the upper of the two HBV pipes go into the top of the Aux. pump ?
3. Where does the aux. pump mount.Its currently sitting loose on the inner wing.
4.Would it be easier to remove the aux. pump as KW has. If I do this is it simply a matter of the upper HBV pipe going into the upper matrix inlet (outlet?) :-/
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Bin the aux pump, it does bog all.
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4.Would it be easier to remove the aux. pump as KW has. If I do this is it simply a matter of the upper HBV pipe going into the upper matrix inlet (outlet?) :-/
This is what I did. I just used a 90 degree hose joiner, Left a short section of both the pipe from the HBV and the pipe from the heater matrix connector and joined them down by the HBV.
Failing that, outlet from HBV goes into the bottom (top?) of the aux. pump and the side outlet from the pump goes to the heater matrix. :y
Kevin
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If you bin the pump, I believe you are supposed to tell the climate it doesn't have one. No idea what will happen if you don't, probably nothing ;D
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Too late now its been binned. If it all goes Pete Tong I will blame Kevin Wood. :P :D ;D ;D
Its almost all back together now, just got to bolt on the various bits on the drivers side of the engine, and then hopefully it will be as sweet as a nut. ::) :-X
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Well its all back together, cleaned the breathers while I was there. Started it up and it switched to LPG in approx. 1 minute.
Been for a test drive, runs nicely checked for leaks etc, all is well. Jobs a goodun. :) :) :) :)
Thanks to everyone who offered help and advice on the thread and by PM.Its easy to forget sometimes just how great this forum is until you get a situation like this one, and then its brought into sharp focus. As is often said - best forum on the net. :y :y
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If you bin the pump, I believe you are supposed to tell the climate it doesn't have one. No idea what will happen if you don't, probably nothing ;D
Correct - Nothing, IME. :y
Kevin
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Nice Result Albs :y