Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: SeedyV6 on 18 August 2010, 13:35:20
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I've pulled up at work this morning, switched off the stereo and i hear a tapping / knocking noise. (Teach me to have the bloody stereo so loud, i'd have heard it sooner!) Rev the engine very gently and the noise is consistant with the revs. The noise wasn't there when i fired up this morning.
Car is a 2000 W reg facelift 2.5V6 with 74K on the clock. I bought the car last May. The oil was last changed in May this year. I do not know how often the oil was changed previously however (previous owner swore he looked after it, yeah right!), the garage that serviced the car in May said that the oil that came out was very bad and had appeared not to have been changed in some time. :(
The lack of oil changes has been confirmed when i took the car to DLK's for rocker gaskets and 3.0 cams.
I only average about 6K a year commuting so I figured on planned oil changes every six months.
Anyhew, at lunch, I've been out and the noise is there from startup but quieter until engine warms up. If you open the bonnet, the noise sounds like it is coming from the top of the engine, say the drivers side bank.
So question is, what am i looking at here? Aside from taking it over to DLK's can I have some best / worse case scenarios please!
I plan on changing the oil this weekend with the vx stuff i just picked up. Was intending to have the sump off and clean out the pickup. Presumably the pick up isn't gonna be pretty considering what the cams looked like when they came out. Another question: Do you need to use the black sealant on the sump? I've picked some up just in case but wanted to know for sure.
Thanks in Advance,
Wes.
PS. Car has plenty of oil at the moment. Oil light goes out on startup and doesn't come on when driving.
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Sounds like it could be a lifter. Might be worth adding some hydraulic lifter treatment to the oil to see if that helps.
Kevin
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Hi Kevin,
thanks for the response. went to halfords straight after vx dealer and dropped wynns version into the oil. was going to see how it goes on the drive home tonight after work. It's about 12-13 miles of mixed driving so i suppose i'll find out soon enough! I am worried though!
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hey,
it seems as if you got some hydraulic lifter problems...
i`ve had similar issues 2 days after i bought my 1996 2.0L 16V XEV GL omega....the day in question i started it normally in the morning and within seconds i heard the light tapping sound, reved the engine and it was consistent with engine rpm...
my solution does not involve drastic engine work...
if you change your own oil its much easier...
here goes..
perform a motor oil change with a slightly less weight Diesel engine oil and a FRAM PH3387A filter (for 2.0L engine),
run the engine for a few days or so...avoiding harsh accelerations, hi rpm`s...basically take it easy...perform another oil change with a different brand Diesel engine oil and a new oil filter....run the engine again in a similar manner.
(the Fram oil filter can be cut open to inspect for metal/??? from your engine)
perform a final oil change with oil you would usually use in your car and oil filter you are accustomed using.
the reason for the diesel oil....this has a lot of detergents...more than the hi priced brand name stuff claims to clean out your engine....no need for expensive tear downs...and cutting open the oil filters gives you a visual of what is in your engine....
and the tapping sound...it is the cam shaft hitting against the hydraulic lifters above the valves...the hydraulic lifters receive oil pressure and "pump up" that is adjust their height to take up any space between the cam shaft and the lifter...put they do not pump up enough to open the valves...this removes "tappet noise " as was common in older engines...
the problem with your engine is the oil port to one of the Hydraulic lifters is probably blocked, or the oil hole of the lifter is clogged....this is where the diesel oil should wash away any of these sludge/trash in the engine.
its worth a try if you like....of you could do it the long way...remove all of the valve lifters and clean them out thoroughly and reinstall them...note the cam shafts have to be removed for this...
i was lucky the diesel oil worked for me....occasionally i get a small amount of the tapping noise when i start up my car..(note i work off shore 28 days on 28 days off...this means for at least 28 days my omega is just there sleeping) after running for may be 30 min the noise is gone....and is more prominent when i haven`t changed my oil for some time...
drop me a line if this works for you..
Regards
R-vin
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here goes..
perform a motor oil change with a slightly less weight Diesel engine oil
Forgive my stupidity! so what weight diesel oil should i be looking at?
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considering my environment is tropical....a 40 weight oil did it for me....however going too light would be bad for your engine...normallu i use 20 -w-50 oil manufactured in my country...and well the diesel oil also from my country has a slightly sweet/squeaky (as a friend described it) smell due to the detergents used in blending it...
what oil do you use...and what temperatures is your car subjected to overnight / day time when not running?
regards
R-vin
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10w-40 is in it at the moment. The temperatures are mild here overnight at the moment
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Interesting suggestion R-vin .
I think it won't be long before a phalanx of Omega knights will be along saying that this might not be such a good idea. From my point of view technically what you suggest is great but the practice may just be to loosen a whole load of crud that will move around your engine potentially doing harm on the way .
Just my view. lets see what the hydraulic lifter treatment does. :y
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hey Varche,
good to hear from you, about the technique i suggested...
the oil that leaves the lifters goes straight back to the sump, not any where else, and this oil goes thru the filter before going to the rest of the engine...plus the diesel oil literally breaks down all the shit to be found in an engine...except metal cuttings,,,
oil is taken directly from the sump, to the oil pump, then the filter...(lets hope it has not been clogged before, oil flows in by pass mode of the filter and sent shit around the entire engine) this is why oil filters should be cut open after every oil change
the only place to be really worried is if any shit goes to the oil sprayers (if applicable) that spray oil to cool the under side of the pistons...they can be clogged...came across a 200sx with a sr20 turbo engine where i could not even free up these oil sprayers when i rebuilt the motor...
not a real problem for a normally used engine, but one that is abused..needs this extra cooling...
the time period i suggested for the oil change is from experience working on / rebuilding engines / having to wash up parts and stuff...diesel oil works just as well as automatic transmission fluid to clean up parts..(ever seen how clean inside an automatic transmission is)..but you cannot use ATF in an engine.... :'(
SeedyV6...the 10W40 diesel oil should be ok....its how many heating and cooling cycles in between the oil changes...and ensure that you change your oil filter...even if you dont change your oil....sounds bad but this has been a common practice in Trinidad...and is even taught by the older mechanics...LOL
it is your call...your car...this is what i do with my car and its fine..no metal found in the filters at oil changes (powerful magnet sweeps the entire element to find nothing)..but do not use a hacksaw to cut it open...i started off using a can opener...MAKE SURE AND USE GLOVES....BLOOD SEEN>>>>NOT GOOD!
let me know what you all think
regards
R-vin
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Ok, so am home now. pulled up and it sounds worse if anything. sounds on both banks. I might be paranoid here but it sounds like i got noise at the bottom as well.
I'd say the lifter treatment was a fail (unless 12-13 miles isn't enough)
So......old homer is parked on my front. i'm gonna wait for the missus to get home so i can use her car to get to a factors / halfords.
I think at the least i should change the oil?
Maybe buy a cheapo brand semi-synth 10W40 for now. Fire it up try running it for a day or 2 and change it again? (i still have the VX oil and filter ready to go in)
If the noise is worse, does this mean that my engine is being slowly starved of oil? If that is the case and the oilways ARE blocked, then where is the harm in trying R-Vins advice or just using plain old flush?
Not sure what to do next, other than what i can here and now by myself (which is probably change the oil!)
Some advice please.......
TIA
Wes.
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Been to halfords. Got some of their own 10W40 and some engine flush. will change the oil and see what happens..... :-/
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That can only help. :y
Look at the oil that comes out and see whether there are any solid or semi-solid lumps in it.
Do change the oil filter as well.
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Been to halfords. Got some of their own 10W40 and some engine flush. will change the oil and see what happens..... :-/
I would drop the oil, then check the oil pick up pipe, whilst the oil is out its only about 16 bolts to remove. You will need a sump gasket though and some sealer to use sparingly :y
You will then have piece of mind, plus if the problem is still there you know the pick up pipe is out of the equasion.
Poor oil changes cause all sorts of problems....
Whatever you do though dont phone VX for new lifters :o :o :o unless you have a chair near :D
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OK, dropped the oil, but left the filter in as i've only got the one Vx jobbie and halfords didn't have the paper type i need. I didn't use the flush as a consequence. Figured i'd save the filter for the Vx oil change.
The oil that has come out is very black. it looks more like it has been in for a year or more rather than 3 months. Bottom of my wash bowl - no metal - thank god! - but a lot of hard oil spots. Some big and some small.
Fired up and noise is still there (obviously) However am now more sure (i think ::) ) that the noise is top end and not bottom end. Loudest noise is still on drivers side bank, although there is some noise from passenger bank also.
So, tomorrow........use wifeys car to go to work........lunchtime re-visit mr. Vx and get a sump gasket and GREY sealer. (not the black wes, oh no, not more black.....)
After that.......what are peoples thoughts?
Should i use engine flush before dropping the oil again? (i know this one divides people so am asking)
Should i then take the sump off, clean the pick-up, re-fit and fill with VX oil and filter?
Or do another cheapy brand oil and run it for a couple of days before the above?
Is the car ok to run now? What damage will i do if i do go to work in it?
Oh, one more......paper filter on my motor.....what size is the nut jobby on the filter housing (excuse poor terminology)
Sorry for all the questions all at once!
Thanks again,
Wes.
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OK, dropped the oil, but left the filter in as i've only got the one Vx jobbie and halfords didn't have the paper type i need. I didn't use the flush as a consequence. Figured i'd save the filter for the Vx oil change.
The oil that has come out is very black. it looks more like it has been in for a year or more rather than 3 months. Bottom of my wash bowl - no metal - thank god! - but a lot of hard oil spots. Some big and some small.
Fired up and noise is still there (obviously) However am now more sure (i think ::) ) that the noise is top end and not bottom end. Loudest noise is still on drivers side bank, although there is some noise from passenger bank also.
So, tomorrow........use wifeys car to go to work........lunchtime re-visit mr. Vx and get a sump gasket and GREY sealer. (not the black wes, oh no, not more black.....)
After that.......what are peoples thoughts?
Should i use engine flush before dropping the oil again? (i know this one divides people so am asking)
Should i then take the sump off, clean the pick-up, re-fit and fill with VX oil and filter?
I would be removing the sump whilst the oil has drained out get the pick up pipe sorted first than last.
Or do another cheapy brand oil and run it for a couple of days before the above?
VX oil is not that dear
Is the car ok to run now? What damage will i do if i do go to work in it?
Oh, one more......paper filter on my motor.....what size is the nut jobby on the filter housing (excuse poor terminology)
11/16 or 24mm
Sorry for all the questions all at once!
Thanks again,
Wes.
Once you have cleaned the pick up pipe, refitted the sump pan, refill with oil the put in lsome Wynns Lifter Treatment or something similar. :y
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Thanks for the response Daz :y
I've got the VX stuff in the boot. I'll use it next. Just wanted to see if anyone thought it was worth doing a n other change beforehand.
I'll pick up some more wynns tomorrow lunchtime as well :y
Cheers fella,
Wes.
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suppose you could put the oil in after doing the pick up pipe then see how it goes, you can leave lifter fluid in until the following oil change :y
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Gotcha :y At this rate, i'm gonna take the LPG out of the tank and fill it with oil....... :D Pipe it into the sump....maybe 85 litres will clean the crud out....
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Gotcha :y At this rate, i'm gonna take the LPG out of the tank and fill it with oil....... :D Pipe it into the sump....maybe 85 litres will clean the crud out....
Don't know that much about LPG ::) but pretty sure that wont help Wes ;D
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Gotcha :y At this rate, i'm gonna take the LPG out of the tank and fill it with oil....... :D Pipe it into the sump....maybe 85 litres will clean the crud out....
Don't know that much about LPG ::) but pretty sure that wont help Wes ;D
I was thinking that if i could carry round a larger oil supply i might get all the crap out of my motor ;D not sure the oil pump would manage tho.... :D
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Have driven into work this morning in Homer. Left the wife car at home. Figured I might as well let the halfords oil run round a bit and remove some crud.
Noise levels are the same as yesterday. Still the drivers side bank that is giving the most noise.
Will be picking up the sump gasket and sealer at Lunch.
Was looking on the web and noticed that Vauxcentre do new lifters @ 8 quid a pop. about 200 quid inc. delivery.
Looking on the forum i noticed that Vx charge 500 quid for these! So my question is, are the lifters from Vauxcentre 'new' and has anyone used them?
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Get a couple more oil filters while you're at Vx. ;)
I wouldn't buy any lifters from anywhere until you've established that you're getting plenty of oil pressure up to them. They just don't work as intended without a decent pressure level, new ones included.
One way you might get an idea of oil pressure is to get the engine up to full temperature, then take off oil filler cap (and maybe the extension tube too on V6) while it's running. There should be enough oil splashing around in there that you should curse me gently for getting splashes of oil on the outside of your cam cover etc.
If it looks a bit dry in there, with not much splashing, get that sump down and check the pickup.
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Oki doki, more filters it is :y
I know oil supply must be the problem, was just eyeing up parts in case the issue isn't resolved by cleaning flushing etc.
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Oki doki, more filters it is :y
I know oil supply must be the problem, was just eyeing up parts in case the issue isn't resolved by cleaning flushing etc.
I can see what you mean Wes but if you get the pick up pipe done first you know that is clear and wont cause you any problems in the near future. It seems to be a trend lately :-?
That is a great starting point if the problem doesnt go we need to go to the next place. :y
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Oki doki, more filters it is :y
I know oil supply must be the problem, was just eyeing up parts in case the issue isn't resolved by cleaning flushing etc.
I can see what you mean Wes but if you get the pick up pipe done first you know that is clear and wont cause you any problems in the near future. It seems to be a trend lately :-?
That is a great starting point if the problem doesnt go we need to go to the next place. :y
You're right :y I've bought more oil, filters, lifter treatment, carb cleaner, kitchen roll (miles of) and Vx grey sealer. My tools are in the boot also. I just need to get home from Bl$%dy work so i can crack on with it :y
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I had this exact same problem. Did an oil filter change and it was filthy again in about 50 miles.
I promise you will be horrified with what you see in the bottom of your sump pan when you "have it off".
Use an old toothbrush to get as much crud out from further up in the engine. It will only end up in the bottom of the pan if you dont.
The crud comes in all sorts of guises - but they are all nasty.
If you use the Mrs's toothbrush make sure you clean it before you put it back? :y
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I had this exact same problem. Did an oil filter change and it was filthy again in about 50 miles.
I promise you will be horrified with what you see in the bottom of your sump pan when you "have it off".
Use an old toothbrush to get as much crud out from further up in the engine. It will only end up in the bottom of the pan if you dont.
The crud comes in all sorts of guises - but they are all nasty.
If you use the Mrs's toothbrush make sure you clean it before you put it back? :y
Found an overnight soak in a drop of bleach does the job ok - she'll never notice :) ;)
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i had a ticking /knocking noise from top of engine , did all the flushing/oil changing etc etc......still no joy
opened up cam cover , removed camshafts , checked lifters, 2 were knackered, got two new ones, fitted and put all back together, noise gone!
you can read my original post under 'please help' :y
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Ok, sit-rep.......
It rained.....and rained.....and rained....I was quite literally soaked to the skin thru my ovvies >:(
added flush before dropping oil - Brown/black in 24hrs :-[
Removed the bolts from the sump pan - wouldn't budge. bit of a tap around it - still didn't budge.
Left the sump pan and went for the oil filter housing - 24mm socket attached....heave-ho and.......wouldn't budge. tried it again.....wouldn't budge.
Very, very, very wet at this point. Got a headache, hungry and not having fun, so i've left old Homer up on the axle stands.
I'm out with work tonight, so he'll have to wait until i recover some time Satruday.....assuming it doesn't rain like it did last night :-/
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Whilst you have the sump off check your big ends for any obvious play :y
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hi all,
i have been following this topic, and the way the condition of these engines are described...i want to ask what have you guys been doing to these cars....i am from trinidad, in the caribbean and i have been rebuilding engines for more than 15 years here...and only the old ones, like from the 70's that have been laid to rest for some years look like what you guys describe....is it the daily cycles of heat and cold, lack of oil changes???? that causes this crud build up??
because we here in trinidad have been using the local oil company`s blended oil, its much cheaper than the imported stuff and the engines last for 10 -15-20 or more years...my dad`s mazda 626 is from 1986, doing 1, 235 658 km, yes thats about right...on the original block, and its only been taken apart once to change only piston rings, the head has been off a few times due to blown gaskets, the head was eventually changed when an exhaust valve needed constant adjustment...it got to the point that it went all the way up into the head and was kept slightly open....AND WORST OF ALL...WE USUALLY CHANGED OIL IN THIS MOTOR ONCE PER YEAR AND USED THE CHEAP STUFF TOO>>>IT RAN ON CNG ONLY MOST OF ITS LIFE (AFTER THE RING JOB IN 1990), WHICH KEPT THE MOTOR VERY CLEAN...3MONTHS INTO AN OIL CHANGE WHEN THE GAS STATION ATTENDANT CHECKS THE OIL..YOU COULD NOT SEE IT ON THE DIP STICK...IT WAS THAT CLEAN!!
with my omega, i use the same brand of cheap oil (not the imported synthetics) and it works great, when i raced her on saturday nights at the street drag meets...my friends that use the high dollar synthetics always marvell at my engine after a run...we open the oil caps to see how much smoke emminates and with mine very little....so i wonder, do we have a good cheap oil here in trinidad???
R-vin
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I think you're asking the wrong people "what have you been doing with these cars?"
It's the previous owners/ fleet managers, and their mechanics that deserve this question; not your typical "I care about my engine" forum-using types. ;)
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recovered pretty well from last nights outing :y , so cracked on with sump pan removal. Realised the it would be easier to remove the plastic undertray in front of the sump pan, so i could get a chisel in and pry the pan away from the sump.
Sump pan was dirty but didn't take too much cleaning. removed the oil pick up pipe (that 4th bolt being a barsteward) cleaned that through with carb cleaner and refitted. wet n dry'd and cleaned the the mating surfaces of sump and pan, applied grey sealer and refitted.
Oil filter housing...............still haven't got it off :-[
I've got a 24mm spanner on it and can turn it now. How long is the thread on this thing? Also is the entire housing supposed to turn? I can get about a quarter turn in between the suspesnion link and the exhaust. The thing is stiff to turn and I don't seem to have made any progress.
(Other cars i've owned previously and serviced have just had the metal canister type, so I am not used to these paper types with the housing)
Oh, and it's been raining on and off all day which means i'm soaked yet again and everything has taken longer than it should :(
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ok so thanks to VxON website i now know that the housing shouldn't come off and it has a cap.......oki doki, looks like it has been overtightened.
That should be fun tomorrow then, assuming the rain ever stops!
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ok so thanks to VxON website i now know that the housing shouldn't come off and it has a cap.......oki doki, looks like it has been overtightened.
That should be fun tomorrow then, assuming the rain ever stops!
Is this any help?
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1204142232
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ok so thanks to VxON website i now know that the housing shouldn't come off and it has a cap.......oki doki, looks like it has been overtightened.
That should be fun tomorrow then, assuming the rain ever stops!
Is this any help?
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1204142232
No phil but thanks. I couldn't get the cap off of the oil filter housing on Sunday, so filled the car with my halfords oil, leaving the filter in. Instead i went back to the guys who serviced it in May and explained that no-one other than them had touched the oil filter and that it was now too tight. They had the car in tuesday morning and I gave them my Vx oil and filter, and left it with them. Picked it up mid-morning and they'd done it, admitting that it had been overtightened previously and it had now been torqued up correctly. They also said the oil came out clean, which considering it had only been in since Sunday.......
So, the car has now had three oil changes in the space of a week and three rounds of lifter treatment to boot.
It still has the noise. Worse than that, this morning it was reluctant to start. Just didn't catch first tiwst of the key as normal. On the way to work this morning, it seemed to warm up quicker than normal.
On the way home tonight, the temp rose in traffic briefly to over 100 deg. I turned the air-con on full straight away and this seemed to keep the temp at about 97deg in traffic. Once on A roads the temp came down to 95 deg, but that is about 10deg higher than normal on the same stretch of road at the same speed :(
Coolant level seems ok, doesn't appear to have oil in it and the expansion tank smells like it normally does (no i do not have an expansion tank fetish ;D) oil is clean. was going to take a plug or two out and check the condition, see if this would shed any light maybe? dunno!
It's still running but question is for how long? (Coolant was changed when cambelt and water pump were done last month by DLK)
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Oh yeah, taking the oil cap off after pulling up, there was a lot of smoke, plus the cap smells of petrol. :'(
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a shot in the dark,check your o2 sensor, wires there near the oil filter housing and may have been disturbed
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a shot in the dark,check your o2 sensor, wires there near the oil filter housing and may have been disturbed
Sounds good Charlie, i'll give that a go, if it ever stops raining!