Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: F1 9LFG on 19 October 2010, 09:07:48
-
hi people, as the title states, looking to do something special with my cdx, now that i'm looking to keep it.
not worked with omegas much before so looking for advice please.
views on blowing a v6, are the engines up to much without extensive work? (i'm thinking not)
are there options with the likes of LS series v8s slotting into the sizeable engine bay, poss using t56 box...?
cheers
-
both dropping a c25let or ls1 (or other) would be easier than modding v6.. v6 has cooling issues at the beginning.. and with ls series you will have space problems, will be very tight fit.. :-/
-
both are possible.....
regarding blowing the V6, yes it's possible. My early measurements mean that it's likely that an Eaton M45 or M62 will fit inbetween the cam covers, but would of course need a special manifold building.
the V6 has a reputation for cooling problems, but personally I think that this is suspect. Cooling can be compromised by a high "normal running temperature", very often variable from car to car. The basic cooling system seems well designed to me, and should easily cope with +50% horsepower.
regarding V8's - I would have previously said that fitting a V8 would be beset with steering box clearance issues. BUT, there's an LS1-powered car currently on e-bay or Pistonheads, so it must be possible. I'm currently scoping this for a potential conversion.
LS and T56 will fit under the bonnet, but it wouldn't be easy. Expect £2-3K to buy the engine & box, plus the same to fit. And there'll be electrical and braking issues, too. The £5k for that particular car may well be the best bet, although it certainly doesn't have more effective brakes than standard, so you'd need to put aside funds for improvements.
Omega B is based on the V-car platform, which is also Holden Commodore, VX Monaro and Pontiac GTO.
-
both are possible.....
regarding blowing the V6, yes it's possible. My early measurements mean that it's likely that an Eaton M45 or M62 will fit inbetween the cam covers, but would of course need a special manifold building.
the V6 has a reputation for cooling problems, but personally I think that this is suspect. Cooling can be compromised by a high "normal running temperature", very often variable from car to car. The basic cooling system seems well designed to me, and should easily cope with +50% horsepower.
regarding V8's - I would have previously said that fitting a V8 would be beset with steering box clearance issues. BUT, there's an LS1-powered car currently on e-bay or Pistonheads, so it must be possible. I'm currently scoping this for a potential conversion.
LS and T56 will fit under the bonnet, but it wouldn't be easy. Expect £2-3K to buy the engine & box, plus the same to fit. And there'll be electrical and braking issues, too. The £5k for that particular car may well be the best bet, although it certainly doesn't have more effective brakes than standard, so you'd need to put aside funds for improvements.
Omega B is based on the V-car platform, which is also Holden Commodore, VX Monaro and Pontiac GTO.
thats a bit tall for v6 imo, unless you modify the cooling system and an external oil cooler..
-
obviously more marginal in Turkey, due to ambient temperature.
Worst case for cooling group is as follows :-
full load on a motorway at low speed, which is towing a fully-loaded trailer up hill at 50mph.
then pull up to a halt on a sliproad.
all in 40 degree ambient.
so, if you remove the trailer aspect, and run in 20 degrees ambient, there's plenty of headroom for handling some more power.
-
obviously more marginal in Turkey, due to ambient temperature.
Worst case for cooling group is as follows :-
full load on a motorway at low speed, which is towing a fully-loaded trailer up hill at 50mph.
then pull up to a halt on a sliproad.
all in 40 degree ambient.
so, if you remove the trailer aspect, and run in 20 degrees ambient, there's plenty of headroom for handling some more power.
Yeah, I guess you have to bear in mind that, having (say) gone from 200 BHP to 300 BHP you are unlikely to sit for minutes at a time at full load - you'll run out of road! whereas, in standard tune, the cooling system will probably have been designed to do just that, in various climates, and on poor quality fuel with a load of knock retard, fully loaded vehicle, trailer on the back etc. As said, you can remove most of those factors with a little care.
As long as the local cooling around the valves and combustion chambers can conduct away a little more heat for short durations there shouldn't be a problem - and you can set the coolant temperature a good bit lower to aid with that.
Kevin
-
a higher flow rate pump will help too much imo..
-
You aught to be worried about the fact that the crank is made of cheese, and will handle not much more than about 270-280 on stock internals, not worth it, It will be blown perminently!!!!
-
Iirc, the v8 omega advert mentioned that the original v6 lump failed due to over tuning. Supercharger was it? Anyway, the v8 was fitted as a replacement and had no ac.
Would be interested if they managed to get the abs and tc to work as well. :-/
-
You aught to be worried about the fact that the crank is made of cheese, and will handle not much more than about 270-280 on stock internals, not worth it, It will be blown perminently!!!!
3.2 has forged crank. Then again, 3.0 is same bore as the C20 with forged pistons readily available. :-/
At the end of the day, whilst it might be feasible to tune any engine to silly power levels, it only makes sense if the bits are readily available, IMHO. There are no rewards for being a trailblazer, other than an empty wallet. ;)
Kevin
-
You aught to be worried about the fact that the crank is made of cheese, and will handle not much more than about 270-280 on stock internals, not worth it, It will be blown perminently!!!!
3.2 has forged crank. Then again, 3.0 is same bore as the C20 with forged pistons readily available. :-/At the end of the day, whilst it might be feasible to tune any engine to silly power levels, it only makes sense if the bits are readily available, IMHO. There are no rewards for being a trailblazer, other than an empty wallet. ;)
Kevin
yep.. with the v6 you will need many parts custom made, cooling issues (still I do believe this engine requires serious modification for cooling for high mods) custom exhaust manifolds , turbo or superchargers ( need to sacrifice ac and some bits need to be removed into other areas) .. and a custom remap necessary.. comparing to those costs an original high power engine would be a better bet..
2.8 v6 turbo from insignia models can be also.. but never seen an example :-/
-
Iirc, the v8 omega advert mentioned that the original v6 lump failed due to over tuning. Supercharger was it? Anyway, the v8 was fitted as a replacement and had no ac.
Would be interested if they managed to get the abs and tc to work as well. :-/
I beleive the owner fitted a Super Charger, which led to he engine "letting go"...
-
I beleive the owner fitted a Super Charger, which led to he engine "letting go"...
The question is: how competent was this conversion? Doesn't prove the V6s unsuitability for tuning, IMHO.
You can destroy any engine quickly, especially with forced induction, if you don't know what you are doing and/or don't stick to reasonable limits based on the engine internals you are working with.
Having said that, for the reasons I cited above, a V8 was probably the more sensible option in the first place.
Kevin
-
I only said that both were possible, not which was preferable.
first stage is deciding how much performance you want - and then set about achieving it.
Jaguar straight-six might be a good bet, especially on the cost basis.
-
thanks for your replies, some good points raised!
leaning towards a transplant after some rough costings.
jag 6pot?, these are carb engines? easier to install if the box etc fits
-
I've seen a Courtney Turbo'ed V6 Estate.....
suffice to say, that when i saw it, it was busy dumping it's coolant on the forecourt at our local sainsbury's petrol station.
which kind of put me off the idea.... :o
-
jag 6pot?, these are carb engines? easier to install if the box etc fits
er, no - I'm thinking of AJ6 or AJ16 from XJ-40 or X300
250 BHP rising to 326 for the supercharged one. compatible with GM manual box and useable with their own ZF transmission.
actually fitted to some Omega A's for Ulster Constabulary.
-
I've seen a Courtney Turbo'ed V6 Estate.....
suffice to say, that when i saw it, it was busy dumping it's coolant on the forecourt at our local sainsbury's petrol station.
which kind of put me off the idea.... :o
Courtenay (when they were known as Courtenay Turbos) made some special turbo V6's for the RUC in Ireland, however they were only ever a low blow and produced around 250bhp, but iirc lots more torque. You used to be able to buy the full kit including 225 grooved discs (@ £200odd/ pair!!), think they stopped selling the full kit about 8-10 years ago.
To be honest if you want to go forced induction then just stick in a 4 pot 2ltr C20LET. This can be tuned for less to a 'fairly' reliable 280-290bhp
The ''blown' 2.8 V6 from the Vectra C and Insignia will be a nightmare due to it being full canbus. This is why there are no early half canbus Vectra C/ Signums with this engine conversion
Couple of years ago at Santa Pod there was an Omega with a 'Rover' V8 but it wasn't running well at all so no idea if they ever finished it
-
The ''blown' 2.8 V6 from the Vectra C and Insignia will be a nightmare due to it being full canbus. This is why there are no early half canbus Vectra C/ Signums with this engine conversion
Not a problem. Just bin the engine management and start again. :y
You'd have to do this with any serious tuning work, on any engine, anyway IMHO.
OK, Auto box will be out (why would you want one on a tuned car?) and you might need to improvise something to keep the ABS/TC ecu happy but life would be much simpler on the engine side.
Kevin
-
just retrofit an earlier ABS.
-
just retrofit an earlier ABS.
Ahh, yes. :y that reminds me. Must look into the interfaces on the older ABS.
Kevin
-
jag 6pot?, these are carb engines? easier to install if the box etc fits
er, no - I'm thinking of AJ6 or AJ16 from XJ-40 or X300
250 BHP rising to 326 for the supercharged one. compatible with GM manual box and useable with their own ZF transmission.
actually fitted to some Omega A's for Ulster Constabulary.
As in Carlton ? :-/