Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: eco16v on 24 October 2010, 15:03:26
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Car has had a slight hesitation under acceleration since I bought it, put it down to the throttle needing cleaned out, cleaned it last night and everything running fine. Started fine this morning but cut out when slowing for traffic lights, would not restart so pushed it round the corner and let it free wheel down a hill and turned it over again and it started. Ran fine the rest of the way home then died when slowing to turn into the driveway, free wheeled down the drive and it started again.
Left it for half an hour or so then went to go out again and all it will do is turn over but wont fire.
Any ideas what might be causing this?
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DIS pack?
Feel free to shout me down anyone if I'm wrong!
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Was reading another thread about non starting and realised I could have disturbed the crank sensor wire as I was replacing the pollen filter as well last nite. Could this be the problem?
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Worth a go.
If thats the problem you may plug it back in and find no difference. Be aware these get old and the internals fail. It may look 'fine' but in reality is the cause of the problem. Certainly a better bet than changing the DIS pack just yet (can be costly and VERY fiddly to get to/replace).
although re-reading your post cant see how you've disturbed the crank sensor if you've been fiddling with the pollen filter -they're nowhere near! Still worth a try changing it, though.
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Classic crank sensor symptoms. The wire runs very close to the exhaust manifold and the heat contributes to its demise. Giving it a nudge might have been the final straw.
If you do the paperclip test to check for codes you will probably get a code 19. When mine failed (on a 1994 2.5) I didn't get a code but fitting a new (genuine VX) sensor fixed it. :y
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Read What is the Paperclip Test (http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1236032406) to find out how to do it.
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Yep. They can be little swines like that!
'There's no reason for it to be the crank sensor'
'So change the crank sensor'.
'Why? Don't be...Oh, that cured it.'
'No probs!'
happens a lot on this forum!
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How easy is it to get access to the crank sensor as a matter of interest?
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Check in the maintenance guides section. (I am old and lazy, so you'll have to look yourself!) but at some point you have to be on your back, as well as climbing all over the engine! (and near the crank, hence the name) It's a on-the-ramps job, though not so bad once you're there
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http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1174321688
well, maybe not THAT old and lazy
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How easy is it to get access to the crank sensor as a matter of interest?
I found it awkward but not a major job.
Front wheels up on ramps, wiper arms and skuttle panel off.
From underneath the car you need to get a torx socket on the sensor retaining bolt (the sensor is just behind the oil filter). The sensor should then pull out easily enough.
From above you can get at the plug.
The wire is usually trapped between the oil cooler pipes and won't come out so usually gets cut. Probably best to get the new one fitted and proved to be working before cutting the old one though.
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How easy is it to get access to the crank sensor as a matter of interest?
I found it awkward but not a major job.
Front wheels up on ramps, wiper arms and skuttle panel off.
From underneath the car you need to get a torx socket on the sensor retaining bolt (the sensor is just behind the oil filter). The sensor should then pull out easily enough.
From above you can get at the plug.
The wire is usually trapped between the oil cooler pipes and won't come out so usually gets cut. Probably best to get the new one fitted and proved to be working before cutting the old one though.
I agree. Just a matter of common sense, make sure you've got the right sensor, of course.. then ensure all's well before destroying/removing the one already in the car.
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Yep - sounds typical crank sensor failure mate - make sure you get the right one (oval plug or square plug - if yours is 1998 on likely to be oval plug) - and re-route down by abs block away from exhaust manifold. :y
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Just did the paperclip test, code 19 stored, looks like a crank sensor then!
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Is there any other way to start the car as its stuck at my parents house a few miles away from my garage! :-[
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Replaced the sensor 2nite, charged up the battery, turned her over and eventually she spluttered into life, ran fine for a couple of mins then cut out and wouldnt restart. Let her sit for a few mins then restarted her with the throttle half open and she fired again ran for a few mins more then cut out again. Fuel gauge is between quarter and empty and display says 69 miles left in tank. Any ideas guys?
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Yup, put some fuel in it. I would not trust it at 69 miles. :y
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Yup, put some fuel in it. I would not trust it at 69 miles. :y
Could this be the prob? Esp with the amount of fuel that is showing on the gauge, ive driven it before til the fuel light came on without any probs. Ill give anything a go at the min to get the thing going again.
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I agree put fuel in it My gauge is about as reliable a chocolate fireguard :D ;D IF I tap it it goes up-when I drive it the needle goes up/down every so often :-?
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Yup, put some fuel in it. I would not trust it at 69 miles. :y
Could this be the prob? Esp with the amount of fuel that is showing on the gauge, ive driven it before til the fuel light came on without any probs. Ill give anything a go at the min to get the thing going again.
The fact that you had code 19 means you hav'nt changed the crank semsor for nothing. However,
I have parked my car with 20miles left on it, next time I switched on the ignition it was showing 70 miles left. Not to be trusted.
You will want to eliminate no fuel as a possible cause (or you're going to feel pretty silly if that's all it is) ;D
I would also be looking at the fuel filter.
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What he said ^ and clean the ICV located in a rubber cylindrical mount on passenger side of plenum... one electrical plug at back & 1 jubilee clip on hose at front. remove these, gently twist and pull ICV out of it's rubber mount and flood it with carb cleaner... then a drop of 3 in 1 oil and replace :y
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Thanks guys, will def give your advice a try today, just dont have any experience with V6 engines.
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Where is the fuel filter located at on an Omega?
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Where is the fuel filter located at on an Omega?
Saloon or Estate?
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Saloon mate
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Ah.. then I don't know ;D (I'm sure someone does, though..)
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look around chassis either in front or behind o/s/r wheel iirc
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Underneath, between the fuel tank and the diff. :y
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Ok put some fuel in the car this afternoon, tried starting it again, no joy, thought battery sounded low when turning over so put it on charge while i removed and cleaned the ICV. Tried starting it again after 10 mins or so and it eventually spluttered into life, ran for a few mins then died again, tried restaring again no joy. The only odd thing I have noticed is when I try to start it the rev and speedo needles dip below zero and there is a click from under the bonnet on the passenger side and when I stop turning her over they both flick up above zero and then settle again.
Any ideas if this could be related?
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Sounds very simaliar to my prevoius troubles with the other omega, Changed the mass air flow sensor with a 2nd hand one and off we went without any further troubles
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I havent had a week of ownership of this car yet without something going wrong, very tempted just to get rid of it thats if I ever get the damn thing going again!
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Just did the paperclip test, code 19 stored, looks like a crank sensor then!
Read codes again and post.
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Sounds very simaliar to my prevoius troubles with the other omega, Changed the mass air flow sensor with a 2nd hand one and off we went without any further troubles
Engine can be started with Maf sensor disconnected for testing purposes.
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Ok will try again this evening guys.
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Just home now, the car is still Fubar'd, code 19 was still stored in it when I did the paperclip test so got my mate to read it with his Snap-on code reader and clear the code. Once he did this it started no problem and ran for a good 5-10 mins then cut out again, no codes stored, restarted no problem then cut out again, no codes stored again. The warmer the engine became the harder it was to start, then eventually it wouldnt start at all but still no codes stored. Any ideas what to try next guys?
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Just home now, the car is still Fubar'd, code 19 was still stored in it when I did the paperclip test so got my mate to read it with his Snap-on code reader and clear the code. Once he did this it started no problem and ran for a good 5-10 mins then cut out again, no codes stored, restarted no problem then cut out again, no codes stored again. The warmer the engine became the harder it was to start, then eventually it wouldnt start at all but still no codes stored. Any ideas what to try next guys?
did your car get a new crank sensor? If yes was it a GM sensor or a generic?
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New GM sensor fitted yesterday.
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Have you disconnected the maf sensor as suggested by kneepad? Definitely not anything 'old school' like fuel starvation, by the sounds of things its some electronic jiggery-pokerey, such as the maf.
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New GM sensor fitted yesterday.
Sorry I can't help then if you still have a 19 code .... :-/
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as well as the above advice I'd check battery voltage & whether or not alternator is keeping it charged. Also wouldn't hurt to stick a new set of plugs in ;) Like kneepad says it'll run with or without MAF sensor & you've already changed crank sensor with no further codes. I'd say back to basics... forget it's a V6 and check all the basics; alternator, battery? do your lights dim with higher rpm? (I'd replace it anyway) & new plugs :y
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I will check all the basics today and see what I can come up with, just frustrating cos I know it has to be something simple. Another thing I noticed was if you allowed the car to freewheel backwards a couple of feet then tried to start it in gear whilst it was moving 9 time out of 10 it would fire and run for about 30 secs then cut out again.
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Checked the basics tonite, battery and alternator fine, still doing the same thing with MAF unplugged and plugged in. What next guys?
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Id be inclined to ask if one of the omega experts is close to you and get them to see.
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Is it possible that this could be something to do with the key losing its code as I had the car battery disconnected?
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Is it possible that this could be something to do with the key losing its code as I had the car battery disconnected?
It's the chip in the key that talks to the imobiliser, check it's still there if you've had the key apart.
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k17/Tiff4327/S73F1355.jpg)
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Yep the chip is still there mate.
Some1 on Migweb suggested possible coolant temp sensor.
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Have you changed the plugs as was suggested earlier?
Is, or was there any oil in the plug wells?
Is the foam under the scuttle above the dis pack wet/damp?
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Havent changed the plugs as the car fires on all cyliders when it does start, going to check the fuel pump next.
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Have you changed the plugs as was suggested earlier?Is, or was there any oil in the plug wells?
Is the foam under the scuttle above the dis pack wet/damp?
My main reason for asking this was to get an answer to the next question.
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Right had a mechanic up to take a look at her this evening and it is def electrical and not fuel related. Fuel system is functioning fine but when he removed a plug lead and put a screwdriver into it to see if there was sufficient spark. Managed to get the engine to fire and it sparks fine for a few mins then the spark stops and engine dies. Thinking maybe coil pack?
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Right had a mechanic up to take a look at her this evening and it is def electrical and not fuel related. Fuel system is functioning fine but when he removed a plug lead and put a screwdriver into it to see if there was sufficient spark. Managed to get the engine to fire and it sparks fine for a few mins then the spark stops and engine dies. Thinking maybe coil pack?
Ok that's where we are heading but you are not answering the questions.
If there was oil/water in the plug wells you may need new leads.
If you have water dripping from the scuttle then will almost certainly be dis pack.
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Will check these tomorrow mate and see.
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Foam above the DIS pack seems to be damp, plug leads on drivers side were very hard to remove and plugs seem ok.
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Foam above the DIS pack seems to be damp, plug leads on drivers side were very hard to remove and plugs seem ok.
The it looks like we are back to reply no. 1 from
'Diamond Black Geezer' Dis Pack.
Have a good look around the dispack and see if there is any signs of corrosion, splitting, delamination.
Expensive item to replace, I would also replace the leads. Try in the wanted section and see if you can get a known good dis pack and leads from someone who is breaking a car.
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Will do mate, is it a big/hard job to replace the DIS pack?
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Will do mate, is it a big/hard job to replace the DIS pack?
Technically you only remove 4 Torx headed M6 bolts. In practice ..... ::) you'll also need a box of plasters for afterwards. ;D ;D ;D Remove the scuttle and you can feel for the Torx bolts - I used an ordinary 8 mm 1/4" drive socket. The first time you see it is when the last bolt has been removed. :-? :-? Just awkward ;D ;D
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Oh joy I can forsee a swearing fit with this 1 then! :)
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Ok 3 weeks later and the car is still not working. It now starts, turned out the new Crank sensor was faulty, got a new 1 and it starts ok. But it has now got a missfire when the engine gets up to temp and this then causes it to cut out and it then wont start for about half an hour.
I have left it with a mechanic who says that when this happens it is logging the fault code for the crank sensor again and 1 for a signal to the ECU, he thinks possible camshaft sensor or maybe coolant temp sensor, does this sound right to anyone?
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Any1?
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You appear to be losing the spark after the engine starts.
Did you ever get round to changing the dis pack.
Did you get a replacement for the genuine GM crank sensor that was faulty.
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You appear to be losing the spark after the engine starts.
Did you ever get round to changing the dis pack.
Did you get a replacement for the genuine GM crank sensor that was faulty.
Yes mate, the faulty GM sensor has been replaced and the car now starts and drives fine but once it warms up it begins to missfire and then cuts out, when I replaced the sensor the first time the car would only start for a few minutes then cut out or would not start at all.
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From your reply, it seems you have not tried another dis pack.
It is your choice but that's were I'd be going, if only to eliminate it.
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No mate I havent replaced it, got so p***ed off with it that I sent it to a mechanic. Would the DIS pack cause it to missfire when warm but not when cold? I thought it was odd that it starts fine now when the engine is cold but will not start when it is warm.
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Dis pack can deteriorate rapidly under load, especially, as you have already said the foam under the scuttle was damp, so must assume water has been dripping on dis pack.
I cannot say for sure that is your problem, but that's were I'd be going, if only to eliminate it.
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Ok mate I will tell the mechanic this tomorrow, he is replacing the Camshaft sensor tomorrow to see if that makes a difference.
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Ok mate I will tell the mechanic this tomorrow, he is replacing the Camshaft sensor tomorrow to see if that makes a difference.
hand him a box of Elastoplast as you ask him! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Camshaft sensor replaced today and made no difference, told the mechanic what Kneepad said about the DIS pack and he agreed. Being ordered in the morning and fingers crossed it will cure the problem.
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Fingers XXXXX :)
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Fingers XXXXX :)
Cheers mate.
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Defo looking like its the coilpack causing the problem, mechanic removed the old 1 on Wednesday and it is disintegrating badly in places and was damp, new 1 was ordered but did no arrive until today due to the weather so its going to be Monday before he gets it fitted, hopefully it sorts her out.
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New DIS pack fitted today, car started fine but is still missfiring and then cutting out as before and logging the code for crank sensor as well, any ideas? Mechanic is going to check crank sensor to ECU wiring tomorrow, but other than there being a breakage he thinks it may be a fault in the ECU.
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New DIS pack fitted today, car started fine but is still missfiring and then cutting out as before and logging the code for crank sensor as well, any ideas? Mechanic is going to check crank sensor to ECU wiring tomorrow, but other than there being a breakage he thinks it may be a fault in the ECU.
Sorry to hear you're still having problems with this. :(
When you changed the crank sensor last time didn't you get a new wire/plug with it?
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New DIS pack fitted today, car started fine but is still missfiring and then cutting out as before and logging the code for crank sensor as well, any ideas? Mechanic is going to check crank sensor to ECU wiring tomorrow, but other than there being a breakage he thinks it may be a fault in the ECU.
Sorry to hear you're still having problems with this. :(
When you changed the crank sensor last time didn't you get a new wire/plug with it?
Do u mean the wire that runs from the crank sensor to the plug near the DIS pack?
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New DIS pack fitted today, car started fine but is still missfiring and then cutting out as before and logging the code for crank sensor as well, any ideas? Mechanic is going to check crank sensor to ECU wiring tomorrow, but other than there being a breakage he thinks it may be a fault in the ECU.
Sorry to hear you're still having problems with this. :(
When you changed the crank sensor last time didn't you get a new wire/plug with it?
Do u mean the wire that runs from the crank sensor to the plug near the DIS pack?
Yes that's the one.
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Yes it came as part of the new sensor mate, its sealed onto the sensor with the oval type plug at the other end.
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Mechanic checked wiring between crank sensor and ECU today, no faults found, reckons it has to be a fault in the ECU. Some 1 told me it could be related to the transponder in the key being faulty, would this cause the engine to cut out and log the code for crank sensor tho?
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The ECU is pretty much bomb proof, don't think it will be that. A problem with the key or transponder would more than likely show up an immobiliser fault.
The recurrence of the code 19 crank sensor is worrying considering you have replaced it with a genuine GM sensor.
Another possibility is that the timing is slightly out.
If It was me I would now be inclined to PM Darth Loo Knee, Elite Pete, Welung666 whoever is nearest you and get one of them to have a look before you spend any more money chasing this. :-/
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Thanks for the advice mate, my biggest prob is that im in Northern Ireland so I dont think any1 is close enough to take a look at her. :( I will tell the mechanic to check the timing 2moro before he does anything else, anything is worth a shot at the minute.
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Good luck with it. I am a loss as to what else to suggest. Pity you are so far away.
I hope your mechanic is aware that he should not attempt to adjust the timing without a proper timing kit, if it's not done right it will cause more damage than good.
Hopefully one of our more experienced members (who I know are reading this) will come in and give an opinion.
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Bit of an update, problem was traced to a brittle wire between the ECU and crank sensor, car is now fixed and running and is now currently for sale as I have now lost any confidence in the car. Its been more trouble than it was worth so I just want rid of it now. :(
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Great stuff, really glad you got to the bottom of this. Also appreciate you getting back to us with the solution. :y :y
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Great stuff, really glad you got to the bottom of this. Also appreciate you getting back to us with the solution. :y :y
No probs mate, thanks for your help with it.
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Lets just hope i dont run into these problems now that im the new owner of this car lol :)
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Lets just hope i dont run into these problems now that im the new owner of this car lol :)
Doubt it now it has been through the OOF cycle of missfire diagnosis, lol, new crank sensor and dis pack will rule out most of your problem areas :y enjoy the car