Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: baby2bubble on 21 February 2011, 15:10:51
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Hi,
firstly sorry if this is the wrong section but I was unsure where to put this. We have an Omega Elite on a 1999 plate. The cams and tappets have gone on it and will need a few other parts, looking at costing in excess of £2k to put back when finished.
The car itself is one of the 'top of the range' models with all the added extras (17" alloys, rear spoiler, xenon headlights, phone etc...the Irmscher styling (but dont think its actually imrscher on the omega?)) on top of the standard elite spec and has been kept in top condition. It has now been stood for about 3 months and is nowhere near ready to be repaired yet.
Another car has been bought in the meantime. Would the car be worth breaking up for parts or putting another engine into sell on? It may be a bit hard to break the car as it is has been loved by the owner but fear it would be worth much less to be sold as a whole car in the condition it is in. But the cost of putting an engine in could outweigh a re-sale value?
Any advice appreciated. Thanks
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When you say the cams and tappets have "gone" what do you mean by that? Maybe it just needs an oil change.
What other parts does it need?
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It was regularly serviced due to mileage covered. Somebody has been to look at it and advised that the cams need replacing and tappets. Unfortunately I dont have full information of what needs doing on it but he was told be much easier and cheaper to put a replacement engine in. Problem being trying to get hold of a decent 3L block for a start. Not being able to find one, then looked for parts required and was told approx £1500 parts alone. I imagine something else needs replacing too with the price given.
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.... Somebody has been to look at it and advised that the cams need replacing and tappets. ....
I'd be very surprised if cams needed replacement :-/ Did your problems just appear during use or was the car laid up for a while? The 'tappets'/lifters can stick but don't usually require replacement, a few regular oil changes can make all the difference.
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Might be worth getting a second opinion on what is actually wrong with it. maybe from someone near you from the forum.
If it has been well serviced and is up to date with cambelt changes then you can guage the price it would fetch from the likes of Autotrader and Ebay.
Then it boils down to:
Do you want to keep the car and spend some money getting it back to scratch?
Do you want to just get shot of it without MOT? and with these "problems"
Do you want to spend money on getting someone to fix the problems by perhaps putting a known good engine in it. before selling it?
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I'd be very surprised if cams needed replacement :-/ Did your problems just appear during use or was the car laid up for a while? The 'tappets'/lifters can stick but don't usually require replacement, a few regular oil changes can make all the difference.
It happened whilst driving and the AA were called soon as the noise started. They advised probably cams issue, car was taken back to the house until the mechanic came round.
Unfortunately its a family members car and we would like to advice him on the best option for him before he puts any money into it. Now has a diesel and much more economy for work (travels a fair distance for work) but loves the car and will be hard not having the car. I wasnt there when the guy diagnosed the problem so missed out on all the information. But the head is still off the car now.
Thing is, the car is in really good condition. The alloys are great condition with really good tyres on them, car is washed, waxed etc VERY frequently, interior has been taken car off and first bit of rust that appeared was dealt with. Such a shame that this has happened which is an awful lot of money to put right.
If as you say, it may not be the problem, we will still struggle now to get another opinion on it.
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Might be worth getting a second opinion on what is actually wrong with it. maybe from someone near you from the forum.
If it has been well serviced and is up to date with cambelt changes then you can guage the price it would fetch from the likes of Autotrader and Ebay.
Then it boils down to:
Do you want to keep the car and spend some money getting it back to scratch?
Do you want to just get shot of it without MOT? and with these "problems"
Do you want to spend money on getting someone to fix the problems by perhaps putting a known good engine in it. before selling it?
He has mentioned putting an engine in it and selling it on but personally I cannot see this making sense economically but understand if the car was to go, he would rather it be working order. On the other hand, we need to advise him best we can.
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When the "noise" appeared did the engine stop. As mechanic has removed head/s was it a cambelt failure :-/
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When the "noise" appeared did the engine stop. As mechanic has removed head/s was it a cambelt failure :-/
The engine didnt stop and it was still driven home steadily with AA following. No mention of cambelt to me but I thinking that the guy who looked is thinking more needs doing that just what went wrong with it at the time. Maybe caused further damage?
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did the oil pressure warning light come on prior to the noise occuring?,if yes I would be thinking blocked oil pick up in the sump.Problem is if the cams are damaged due to lack of oil pressure there is probably other damage done as well
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did the oil pressure warning light come on prior to the noise occuring?,if yes I would be thinking blocked oil pick up in the sump.Problem is if the cams are damaged due to lack of oil pressure there is probably other damage done as well
Nothing said about oil pressure warning before hand. Had been driving about 5-10 minutes and the noise came loud from the engine, sounded rough and very out of character. Pulled up, switched off and called the AA. They heard it, followed him back and advised not to run the car other than to a garage for repair.
I guess it must have done a little more damage.
Thanks for all the replies btw!
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The AA must be mad if they've asked someone to drive there car home while the top end is making a racket, they should have towed it back >:(
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The AA must be mad if they've asked someone to drive there car home while the top end is making a racket, they should have towed it back >:(
my thoughts entirely :(
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I would get someone else who knows what they are doing (i.e. Not the AA) to have a look at it.
It's very rare that a "cam" fails. hydraulic tappets perhaps, but these are straightforward to replace.
.. have they taken the heads off?
If so, to be honest, the most it's likely to need is a pair of good heads from a breaker, a set of gaskets and a few hours to put it back together.
If it has been run without oil pressure it's a different matter.
As said, it needs someone who knows these cars to give it a once-over and see what's what.
Kevin
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Can anybody recommend anybody in Sheffield area to have a look at this?
Also, any idea on the value of the car?
I would get someone else who knows what they are doing (i.e. Not the AA) to have a look at it.
It's very rare that a "cam" fails. hydraulic tappets perhaps, but these are straightforward to replace.
.. have they taken the heads off?
If so, to be honest, the most it's likely to need is a pair of good heads from a breaker, a set of gaskets and a few hours to put it back together.
If it has been run without oil pressure it's a different matter.
As said, it needs someone who knows these cars to give it a once-over and see what's what.
Kevin
The heads were taken off by the mechanic (not AA by the way, they only followed him home). The mechanic has been looking after the car for quite a while but says this is a big job. He saw it and tried to find an engine, couldnt find one so remove the head(s) and has a list of parts that are needed. Says most are dealer parts only too.
The strange thing to me was that he diagnosed a new engine before removing the head etc and having a look...could this be done by looking around the engine as is? Found it strange he then came back to look at parts needed.
Obviously the longer it is stood, the more may need replacing so could do with getting it sorted one way or another soon rather than later.
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Two sensible choices imo.
1. Get one of the mobile mechanics from OOF to take a look and diagnose the problem.
2. Break it for spares and sell the bits on fleabay, that will bring more dosh in than selling it as a project or similar.
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Get an OOF expert - these engines are not that hard to work on.
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If you broke it, I'd be interested in Irmscher Body Kit, possibly your cams and in the rare case that you have one, your LSD...
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Two sensible choices imo.
1. Get one of the mobile mechanics from OOF to take a look and diagnose the problem.
Is there anybody in my area at all?? Im going to get a second opinion having just spoken to him about the car.
Any idea on cost for cams/tappets? Maybe head?
@Julian James - its not the Irmscher I dont think, its something else, Ill take a look when I go round but it was all factory optional extras.
Cheers
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Nearest OOF mechanic’s to you would either be:
Elite Pete or bit further down on the map, Darth Loo-knee
If you ‘pm’ them directly to ask if they could possibly take a look at you engine.
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Can anybody recommend anybody in Sheffield area to have a look at this?
Also, any idea on the value of the car?
I would get someone else who knows what they are doing (i.e. Not the AA) to have a look at it.
It's very rare that a "cam" fails. hydraulic tappets perhaps, but these are straightforward to replace.
.. have they taken the heads off?
If so, to be honest, the most it's likely to need is a pair of good heads from a breaker, a set of gaskets and a few hours to put it back together.
If it has been run without oil pressure it's a different matter.
As said, it needs someone who knows these cars to give it a once-over and see what's what.
Kevin
The heads were taken off by the mechanic (not AA by the way, they only followed him home). The mechanic has been looking after the car for quite a while but says this is a big job. He saw it and tried to find an engine, couldnt find one so remove the head(s) and has a list of parts that are needed. Says most are dealer parts only too.
The strange thing to me was that he diagnosed a new engine before removing the head etc and having a look...could this be done by looking around the engine as is? Found it strange he then came back to look at parts needed.
Obviously the longer it is stood, the more may need replacing so could do with getting it sorted one way or another soon rather than later.
I am concerned as this mechanic has not done the basics before diving in (which hints at a skill or knowledge issue)
For a start, there are no tappets!
If the top end goes noisey its usualy due to an oil pressure issue (hence the questions relating to the oil light), he SHOULD have tested the oil pressure before doing anything.
The question is, what has been done to the car shortly before this occured?. An oil change per chance...the dreaded engine flush?.
As for parts, some we recommend Vx for (cam cover gaskets etc), others pattern items are ok. You cna do a full top end with oil, filter and antifreeze for around 200 quid parts wise.
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Thanks.
If it's factory fitted, that's good. I'm just looking into body kit options at the moment. I think if it's a factory option when the car was new, then it doesn't count as a "modification" on the insurance. Otherwise premium might go up with an aftermarket one...
(Although modification from standard spec is a bit of a vague term in my books)
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I am concerned as this mechanic has not done the basics before diving in (which hints at a skill or knowledge issue)
For a start, there are no tappets!
If the top end goes noisey its usualy due to an oil pressure issue (hence the questions relating to the oil light), he SHOULD have tested the oil pressure before doing anything.
The question is, what has been done to the car shortly before this occured?. An oil change per chance...the dreaded engine flush?.
As for parts, some we recommend Vx for (cam cover gaskets etc), others pattern items are ok. You cna do a full top end with oil, filter and antifreeze for around 200 quid parts wise.
To be fair, the mechanic has always been used and trusted, but unsure on this one. Think more of a 'time' issue and not having any!
No tappets? :-?
Dont know if I have said but for the record anyway, it is the 3.0L Auto, not that it probably makes much difference.
I have asked again and there were no oil issues before the noise start, or indeed I believe when it started. It had NOT just been serviced and had been used like every other day, drove home that morning and was then off to work that afternoon/evening when it happened. Really was nothing out of the ordinary.
Ill take a look for the parts, Vx as in Vauxhall dealer part?
Thanks.
If it's factory fitted, that's good. I'm just looking into body kit options at the moment. I think if it's a factory option when the car was new, then it doesn't count as a "modification" on the insurance. Otherwise premium might go up with an aftermarket one...
(Although modification from standard spec is a bit of a vague term in my books)
Yeah there seems to be a fine line but all on this car is factory. There have been no 'outside modifications'. I was once asked if my car had any modifications OR optional extras. Can be hard to tell on some cars, now even down to the gearknob can be changed at factory! ::)
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The time issue again highlights a bit of a concern regarding the mechanic.
If, the correct checks are done then time is ALWAYS saved.
I strongly suspect that if he rebuilds the top end it will be no better and hence its a lot of time and money wasted.
Its the basics of engine diagnosis.
The followers (no tappets on this engine), if starved of oil, will get noisey......and many will get noisey. If it was followers at fault, then you woudl expect one to go at a time....not many at once.
Replacing them wont fix it, only curing the oil feed issue will.
Hence the oil pressure check.
The problem you now have is that the engine is stripped down without diagnosis, expenditure is requried to re-build it and yet no 'actual' fault has been found which would give you any confidence that its fixed.
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hi just to mix it up a bit my old mv6 done exactly the same thing was fine pulled into petrol station ( for food not fuel ) started her up and she made the most nasty noise from the top end drove car home 5 min away with EML light flashing away . got AA to have a look and the guy said the same thing cam issue . turned out to be timing bet had jumped a tooth due to tensioner coming loose . i personally had a second hand engine fitted .
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hi just to mix it up a bit my old mv6 done exactly the same thing was fine pulled into petrol station ( for food not fuel ) started her up and she made the most nasty noise from the top end drove car home 5 min away with EML light flashing away . got AA to have a look and the guy said the same thing cam issue . turned out to be timing bet had jumped a tooth due to tensioner coming loose . i personally had a second hand engine fitted .
This could be it but it doesnt make sense why the head has been taken off now and looking for cams etc. If you dont mind me asking, how much did the replacement engine set you back? I know hes had difficulty finding another 3.0l engine but should one come up and him go for this, what cost roughly be looking at?
The problem you now have is that the engine is stripped down without diagnosis, expenditure is requried to re-build it and yet no 'actual' fault has been found which would give you any confidence that its fixed.
Cheers, makes sense everything you put and leaves us in a situation now it seems where either we allow him to do the work (which he will do and do it until its right again) or try to get the owner (father in law) to let the car go as it is one way or another. I was going to ask someone to come and see it but as you point out, whilst in bits, 'proper' checks cannot be carried out on it. Would a visual check with the head off show whether the cams, timing belt or any other issue minus fuel pressure was responsible here?
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May or may not be of any use to you but there are a few 3.0ltr engines on ebay so they cant be that difficult to source ... just had a quick search in case you do need to replace it :y
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Inspection of the cam lobes would prove they are ok (I suspect other than minor pitting they will be).
Inspection of the belt tensioner and idlers would provide information on thier health to.
A general inspection of the engine intrnals with the heads removed would give clues regarding the state of the internals.
So some things could be done.
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If the problem arose due to the cambelt jumping a few teeth or similar, I would think it would be pretty obvious at a glance that there were bent valves. If thats the case, but the piston crowns and bores look ok, then put a wanted Ad for a pair of heads and then have the top end rebuilt. :y
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Inspection of the cam lobes would prove they are ok (I suspect other than minor pitting they will be).
Inspection of the belt tensioner and idlers would provide information on thier health to.
A general inspection of the engine intrnals with the heads removed would give clues regarding the state of the internals.
So some things could be done.
Ok cheers, Im trying to get someone to come and have a look who is closer (in Sheffield) so will see if they can make it first. Cheers for advice!
May or may not be of any use to you but there are a few 3.0ltr engines on ebay so they cant be that difficult to source ... just had a quick search in case you do need to replace it :y
Typical! Ive looked when it was first checked and recently there has been nothing on there at all, now theres 3!
One thing though, they look different, well one does, is it manual engine maybe?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VAUXHALL-OMEGA-VECTRA-3-0-V6-X30XE-ENGINE-VECTRA-94-03-/110643211821?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item19c2d96e2d#ht_902wt_754
Ill wait for someone to see it first.
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The eBay engine is from a 96 which is a pre facelift so has the shorter plenum chamber but is otherwise the same as the later 3.0 engine as far as i know but i'm sure someone will confirm :y
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Thanks.
If it's factory fitted, that's good. I'm just looking into body kit options at the moment. I think if it's a factory option when the car was new, then it doesn't count as a "modification" on the insurance. Otherwise premium might go up with an aftermarket one...
(Although modification from standard spec is a bit of a vague term in my books)
Be VERY careful with that approach ... :( If the car is "different" from standard ..even factory fit.. and you don't tell them, they "could" refuse a payout at worst. At best they could insist on fitting "standard" parts in the event of damage .. so the bodykit would not be replaced like-for-like but with "normal" bits.
How do I know this ....???? A lot of research in insuring this
<-------
Which has the full Irmscher body kit ... :)
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I went round last night as he was removing the battery and had a quick look, I know I said he took the head off, but didnt realise he put the head in the boot and left cams etc exposed!
The cams are beginning to show signs of rust where they are no longer protected, ie on the rings (sorry dont know how to explain it but the ring shaped parts of the cams) and water sitting in certain parts of the block, such as on the spark plugs with rust starting to show!
Now fearing that a new engine will be the only option, Im heading round in a bit to start getting the water out and see whats in the boot. Think something else may have been taken off.
Still, we will see what its like and try to get somebody local to take a quick look but think it may be a waste of time now. Ill try to get some decent photos of it but again, doubt it will be much use. Dont know where else water could have gone.
As for the trim, as I said it wasnt Irmscher but another extra, its Stienmetz trim which I believe is the window spoiler, boot spoiler, 17" alloys, headligths and a few other bits.
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I went round last night as he was removing the battery and had a quick look, I know I said he took the head off, but didnt realise he put the head in the boot and left cams etc exposed!
The cams are beginning to show signs of rust where they are no longer protected, ie on the rings (sorry dont know how to explain it but the ring shaped parts of the cams) and water sitting in certain parts of the block, such as on the spark plugs with rust starting to show!
Going on the above, the head has NOT been taken off.
The cams have to come out to get to the head bolts - so if you can see the cams, they are above the head - so the head is still fitted!
The spark plugs also screw into the head, so you wouldn't see these, if the head was in the boot!
So - nothing by way of valve damage can be ascertained by just looking at that.
I've not read this thread, but, has the cam timing been checked and confirmed, and the engine properly compression tested?
If not - that's the first job - followed by an oil pressure test.
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Going on the above, the head has NOT been taken off.
The cams have to come out to get to the head bolts - so if you can see the cams, they are above the head - so the head is still fitted!
The spark plugs also screw into the head, so you wouldn't see these, if the head was in the boot!
So - nothing by way of valve damage can be ascertained by just looking at that.
I've not read this thread, but, has the cam timing been checked and confirmed, and the engine properly compression tested?
If not - that's the first job - followed by an oil pressure test.
Course, its the rocker covers that been removed!
No test have really been carried out on it. The thread basically tells me that is not been looked at properly from the start. Does the rocker cover have a gasket set? If its not too big a job, I could put them back on for relevant tests to be carried out. I still need to check whats in the boot though.
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I wonder if the camcovers have been removed in an attempt to "see" if the valves have been damaged in any way .... not a lot of use IMHO but a possible reason ?? No need to put them back on fully while you do the next bits .. just place in position.
Valve timing needs to be checked PROPERLY by following the cambelt change procedure and the use of correct timing tools
Once that is confirmed as OK then a compression test needs doing.
ONLY those checks will save you having to take the heads off ... if you are lucky ..
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If, as seems possible, the tensioner has failed, and/or the cam belt jumped a few teeth, and even if not, it seems the height of irresponsibility to have been advised by the AA to drive home. Does a member have any comeback in these circumstances?
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Sounds to me like the mechanic started stripping it, got out of his depth and cried "new engine".
As said, first job is to make sure the cam timing is correct, compression test will tell you if you have bent valves, then, if that is satisfactory, put the covers back on and check oil pressure.
Kevin
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Hi,
while since Ive been on, been busy but eventually this week got him to let me put all the top back on. As I say it was stripped down to the cams but, managed to get it all done AND get it started!
It started up, with huge help of my car boosting it and took a while but runs and drives. I drove it to the end of the drive and it stalled, had to get my car back on it.
As for the engine, well, it was on for over an hour in the end. No leaks, no over heating.
Very loud though, engine sounds very rough and now has a lot more movement that it didnt have before. Not sure how to explain it...maybe if you put uprated cams to boost power, you start to get a little movement? That but not in a good way.
There was excessive smell of fuel from middle of the car back although its not ran/started for 6/7 months so probably needs a good run to clear it out.
Theres not much more I can say at this moment. Like I say, no obvious leaks or over heating but certainly sounds like a problem in the cams somewhere. It held the idle ok although jumpy and the engine management light was erm...not on but was? It was like the engine was working hard to keep the revs on, the light was flickering. It was on but not like normal. Im wondering if this was due to the revs nearly cutting out before it caught itself again each time, but probably not.
Its booked in for 10am tomorrow morning to have a local garage have a nosey at it, see what they say. Fingers crossed it wont stall on the way down there [smiley=laugh.gif]
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If you are still having problems in a week or so I can have a look at it for you...cant do anything much at the moment cos of the kids holidays but happy to check it over, can supply and fit an engine for you if needed but more than likely its something less severe if its running ok atm, lumpy running is more than likely down to not having connected the air hoses etc correctly...
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Ran it down to the garage, they just had a listen to it and straight away said cams. Then gave me number for another guy who came round to check it, he said cams too, most likely need a new engine, which he could fit but not be worth getting parts.
Again, no tests have been done on it but we have checked all connections etc and all ok. Again no over heating or leaks, just really rough.
Now looking into selling as whole as it...or breaking for spares. Whichever will get him most money.
MutantCav - Ill PM you, wouldnt want to waste your time. Cheers
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It wont be 'cams'. it sounds like its jumped a tooth or 2 on the timing belt. I have heard a 3.0 litre run with the timing a few teeth out and they do sound rattly and rough, which to the uninitiated would seem like duff cams.
Get somone to check the valve timing. you may be lucky and get away with a new belt kit.
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Can this be done by mobile mechanic or again at a garage?
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PM replied to :y
I would totally agree that cams is very very unlikely...same sort of thing as mechanics saying head gasket when its obvious to everyone on here its the oil cooler thats failed...trust the OOF!
I would also agree with getting timing checked first...unfortunately its the one area I'm short of experience on...I dont have a timing kit or enough experience to be sorting this on someone elses car, could just make it worse, a risk I'm only prepared to take on my own car currently...if you are lucky though belt/tensioner change will sort it so cost wise probably a couple of hundred quid...maybe less if you get the help of the more knowledgable belt guys on here :)
If you need a new top end, more like £300 or so with parts, replacement engine maybe £450.
Cars worth maybe £500-700 fixed if its got tax and MOT...
Probably worth taking scrap value instead if the cars not really needed as its money gained rather than money spent! :y