Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: twiglet on 12 April 2011, 12:26:16
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Sorry if this is a topic covered previously, but a search didn't reveal anything of much use. Anyway, here goes...
I'm looking to replace the tyres on my 3.2 Elite Estate. Unfortunately the current set have worn badly on the inside edges due to knackered wishbone bushes, etc. The tyres are 235/45 17's.
I currently have Avon ZV5's on the car, which I have an issue with because they are an asymmetric tread pattern, meaning that the tyre cannot be swapped from side to side in an attempt to equal out wear.
It would seem that most tyre manufactures are going down the asymmetric route for this size of tyre nowadays.
Therefore, I'm looking for advice/suggestions on what tyres you guys use and recommend...
I don't drive the mig like a racing car, although I do tow a trailer or caravan occasionally, and I'm looking for a good trade off between value and wear rate.
TIA :y
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wear rates arent a problem if your geometry is right, and I wouldnt waste money on tyres till it is.
What are the properties you value in a tyre?
longevity?
grip?
noise?
Ive had good results with Conti sport 2 / 3's
Vredstein ultrac sessantas
toyo proxies
but thats personal preference.
a lot recommend Khumo KH31 as a good balance.
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I thought all 17 inch rims on an Elite should be 235/45/17,so might want to also check correct size before buying again
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I thought all 17 inch rims on an Elite should be 235/45/17,so might want to also check correct size before buying again
Sorry, that was a typo. Original post editted. :y
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wear rates arent a problem if your geometry is right, and I wouldnt waste money on tyres till it is.
What are the properties you value in a tyre?
longevity?
grip?
noise?
Ive had good results with Conti sport 2 / 3's
Vredstein ultrac sessantas
toyo proxies
but thats personal preference.
a lot recommend Khumo KH31 as a good balance.
Hi Jimbob,
New bushes will be installed and a full geometry check will be completed prior to new tyres being fitted. :y
I would say I'm more interested in longevity and noise, over outright grip, although it would be nice if I don't slide off the road at the first hint of a corner... :-/
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See FAQ for the handling suspicion tyre wear guide. Vitally important to get the car set up and in tip top condition re steering and suspension before fitting new tyres to get the best out of them and avoid tram lining issues as much as possible.
Now is the time to sort it, diagnose any faults, replace any parts, set up. THEN, fit new tyres.
Sc3 , Dunlop sport max, potenza(noisy ime)
Kumho ku31, accelera Alphas seem to get good reviews.
Avoid Falkens like the plague, ESP 912 >:(
Avons not particularly great tbh.
Hth
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if I were you I would go for 225/50-17 (if not a big price difference)
steering and road comfort will be better.. odo will be %2 out..
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I've tried - (in 225/55/16)
Falken FK452s, - noisy, soft, grippy, short life,
Pirelli P7s - noisy, rough, not grippy esp. wet, reasonable life, but tram line like you can't believe
Nexen CP641, fairly quiet, comfy, long life and surpisingly grippy if not outright as good as the Falkens, but the Nexen lasted twice as long!
Mohawk M112 - quiet, firm, grippy, don't know about life yet, only been on 2K, but no noticeable wear yet, and no tramlining
Hankook K105 Ventus Prime XL, quiet, grippy, no tramlining, firm and give better steering response, so far only 14K done but tyres still have 6mm on tehm so I am expecting them to last well.
Cheers
Paul
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I've tried - (in 225/55/16)
Falken FK452s, - noisy, soft, grippy, short life,
Pirelli P7s - noisy, rough, not grippy esp. wet, reasonable life, but tram line like you can't believe
Nexen CP641, fairly quiet, comfy, long life and surpisingly grippy if not outright as good as the Falkens, but the Nexen lasted twice as long!
Mohawk M112 - quiet, firm, grippy, don't know about life yet, only been on 2K, but no noticeable wear yet, and no tramlining
Hankook K105 Ventus Prime XL, quiet, grippy, no tramlining, firm and give better steering response, so far only 14K done but tyres still have 6mm on tehm so I am expecting them to last well.
Cheers
Paul
Sure the wheel barings are ok? one thing I will say for Falkens, I found them very quiet. P7 similar :-/
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I've got Pirelli P6000s in 225/55/16. The handling and grip is quite good and gave no problems in the snow and ice. The wear on the front tyres is not good though. The inside edge on the driver's side and the outside edge on the passenger side wore badly before I had the wheel alignment corrected last summer. Overall the tread is down to 3mm-4mm after less than 10k miles.
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See FAQ for the handling suspicion tyre wear guide. Vitally important to get the car set up and in tip top condition re steering and suspension before fitting new tyres to get the best out of them and avoid tram lining issues as much as possible.
Now is the time to sort it, diagnose any faults, replace any parts, set up. THEN, fit new tyres.
Sc3 , Dunlop sport max, potenza(noisy ime)
Kumho ku31, accelera Alphas seem to get good reviews.
Avoid Falkens like the plague, ESP 912 >:(
Avons not particularly great tbh.
Hth
Hi Chris,
You probably remember giving my car the once over at the cambelt meet. You identified the rear donut bushes and front wishbone front bushes as being shot. I've since checked the front wishbone rear bushes, and they look perfectly ok, so I'm about to replace the front bushes with poly ones and the rear donuts with standard items.
Once done, the car will be getting a full geometry setup before I even consider buying new tyres, so no worries there! :y
Do you know which of the tyres you recommend are asymmetric, and which are directional?
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Nexen CP641, fairly quiet, comfy, long life and surpisingly grippy if not outright as good as the Falkens, but the Nexen lasted twice as long!
Had them on Tractor/TB2
Great budget tyre, but woeful in *very* wet conditions...
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I'd take the views in this thread with a pinch of salt, some of the tyres mentioned in my mind are poop (personal experience) and independent reviews haven't rated them highly either. There are some good tyres mentioned in here though.
I'd read what's recommend here then do some research online and make your own mind up.
It helps if you state how much you're willing to pay though.
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It is odd, one mans grippy is anothers slippery snot....
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http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1294574748
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Its true that recommending tyres is a subjective thing. However, if enough people and their personal preferences, then a picture should form of the generally good tyres. Strength in numbers and all that...
I think £100 a corner is a reasonable price to pay for a decent tyre of this size nowadays. However, I'm not made of money, so if I can get better value by getting your feedback and doing my homework, then its all good!! :y
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Staying under £100 a corner I would look at Uniroyal Rainsport 2's which I currently have myself and am more than happy with, read up if you like. Also I would look at Hankook S1's and Hankook V12's, both seem to fair well.
Slightly over your budget will allow a few more premium brands of which I can recommend:
Vredestein Ultrac Sessanta
Continental SC3
Tyres aren't an area I like to skimp on, don't ever want to think "could this have been avoided if I spent a little more on my tyres?".
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It is odd, one mans grippy is anothers slippery snot....
Hence I try not to recommend tyres ;)
Whilst I'm perfectly happy with what is on the MV6, I can not recommend the god damn awful, useless, slippery, crappy, shitty, nasty pieces of shite on the Elite. So I'd urge people to stay away from Michelin Pilot Sport 2. They are utter shite on the Omega and every other car I've had to tolerate them on
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Its true that recommending tyres is a subjective thing. However, if enough people and their personal preferences, then a picture should form of the generally good tyres. Strength in numbers and all that...
I think £100 a corner is a reasonable price to pay for a decent tyre of this size nowadays. However, I'm not made of money, so if I can get better value by getting your feedback and doing my homework, then its all good!! :y
Trouble is, we all have different priorities.
Tunnie, for example, is the slowest driver I know. Being a useless student, he is also the tightest person I know. Therefore he demands durability/cost above all else. So you'll find him either on cheap budget tyres. If they are made of concrete, so much the better.
GayBoyGixer is the fussiest person I know. His pet tyre hates are instability and noise, and demands a certain level of perfromance. So he tends to go for the mainstream, quality branded tyre. Which doesn't include Falken 912s :-X
For me, the tyre is vital, so I find one I like, and stick to it like brown stuff to a blanket. Until the muppets stop making it, then I spend months choosing. My demands are grip. Lots of grip. Not track-soft grip, as I still expect 10k from them.
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I use Goodyear F1 just had 2 new at £100 each dont have tramlining with these as with others
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It is odd, one mans grippy is anothers slippery snot....
Hence I try not to recommend tyres ;)
Whilst I'm perfectly happy with what is on the MV6, I can not recommend the god damn awful, useless, slippery, crappy, shitty, nasty pieces of shite on the Elite. So I'd urge people to stay away from Michelin Pilot Sport 2. They are utter shite on the Omega and every other car I've had to tolerate them on
As we have discussed before, I think the differences are based on what people expect from a tyre. But don't always specify those expectations when asking the question "wants the best tyre?" to which the answer should be another question, what do you mean by best? Best on price? Grip level? Mileage? Etc. It's very easy to make a the wrong choice. After all a tyre is a tyre, right? Wrong IMO.
Must say I've rarely encountered such a range of bad symptoms with tyres on a car. Omega seems very sensitive to tyres, set up, suspension faults etc etc ime. All these thing conspire to bag of tits in the corners... And in a straight line even more so.
Btw, I am convinced Michelin must make a tyre that suits TB. Must do...? For those who desire a tyre to last, at the expense of some grip, TB's tyres will be right for them. You see my point...?
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I have Conti SC3's on the back and Dunlop Sport Maxx's on the front. Both very good in all conditions and provide excellent grip and confidence.
These replaced a set of Falken 912's which were poor in the dry and scary in the wet. Previous the that I'd had Falken FK452s which were also rubbish (but I didnt learn as I am stupid).
The Contis and Dunlops were both recommended in this forum and I can happily add my recommendation, stonking good tyres. The Dunlops were cheaper than the contis , got a good deal from WIM, but I did have to ask for the stronger sidewall (97 rather than the standard 94 IIRC) as this IMHO suits the omega better.
The falkens are a great tyre on a lighter car ( I use them on my Golf and TVR) but are not suited to something as heavy as an omega.
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As we have discussed before, I think the differences are based on what people expect from a tyre. But don't always specify those expectations when asking the question "wants the best tyre?" ...
Agreed. Other points to bear in mind are that tyre recommendations depend on the driver too, and are therefore not worth listening to unless you know that driver has similar expectation to yourself. Many (perhaps most?) drivers will never approach the limits of the tyre's grip in any conditions, so might rate a tyre as Ok when in fact the level of grip is rubbish.
Car type and condition comes into it as well. You won't tell the difference between a good and a bad tyre if you've got shot wishbone bushes and a 200k car on original suspension components. ;)
Kevin
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Hence the advise, diagnose steering and suspension faults, recity and relace any worn parts, set up, THEN fit new tyres.
Imagine the pickle the handling would become adding fubar wishbone bushes and rear donuts, worn track rods and barings, shot steering idler, then fitting 912's? The car would be undrivable. ;D .... ESP when the tyres become half worn, nightmare.
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As we have discussed before, I think the differences are based on what people expect from a tyre. But don't always specify those expectations when asking the question "wants the best tyre?" ...
Agreed. Other points to bear in mind are that tyre recommendations depend on the driver too, and are therefore not worth listening to unless you know that driver has similar expectation to yourself. Many (perhaps most?) drivers will never approach the limits of the tyre's grip in any conditions, so might rate a tyre as Ok when in fact the level of grip is rubbish.
Car type and condition comes into it as well. You won't tell the difference between a good and a bad tyre if you've got shot wishbone bushes and a 200k car on original suspension components. ;)
Kevin
agreed.. so the only trustable source is tire tests..
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As we have discussed before, I think the differences are based on what people expect from a tyre. But don't always specify those expectations when asking the question "wants the best tyre?" ...
Agreed. Other points to bear in mind are that tyre recommendations depend on the driver too, and are therefore not worth listening to unless you know that driver has similar expectation to yourself. Many (perhaps most?) drivers will never approach the limits of the tyre's grip in any conditions, so might rate a tyre as Ok when in fact the level of grip is rubbish.
Car type and condition comes into it as well. You won't tell the difference between a good and a bad tyre if you've got shot wishbone bushes and a 200k car on original suspension components. ;)
Kevin
agreed.. so the only trustable source is tire tests..
To a point yes, but as people have said a tyre can work very well on one car, and be awful on another. Unless the tyre test has been completed on a specific model of car, I don't think they are alot of use in the real world. :-/
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Thanks to everyone for your advice. At least I know which tyres to avoid, and have a few ones to research before making my choice!
All my new bushes have been ordered, and will be fitted within the next week.... my wheels are away being refurbished as we speak.... and the car will be booked in at WIM tomorrow....
8-) :y :y
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As we have discussed before, I think the differences are based on what people expect from a tyre. But don't always specify those expectations when asking the question "wants the best tyre?" ...
Agreed. Other points to bear in mind are that tyre recommendations depend on the driver too, and are therefore not worth listening to unless you know that driver has similar expectation to yourself. Many (perhaps most?) drivers will never approach the limits of the tyre's grip in any conditions, so might rate a tyre as Ok when in fact the level of grip is rubbish.
Car type and condition comes into it as well. You won't tell the difference between a good and a bad tyre if you've got shot wishbone bushes and a 200k car on original suspension components. ;)
Kevin
agreed.. so the only trustable source is tire tests..
... On roughly similar size and weight cars yes, provided they are not taking back handers to make one tyre look better.
I will never accept a p Zero is better than a sc3 on an omega! Fiesta maybe, focus, golf possibly. Omega no chance. A tyre on a small front wheel drive car will not necessarily behave the same as ona large rear wheel drive car. Got the t shirt to prove it, as does bigdods above and TB with p6000.
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Yes, agree with all the above, thoroughly subjective. The answer to 'are your wheel bearings OK' in relation to the Falken FK452 and Pirelli P7 noise comment, yes absolutely, I've replaced them! and the front and rear springs. The qualifier for the noise is that it happens towards the end of life of these tyres and I am sensitive to that sort of noise so it annoys me. As for outright grip, I should say that the vast majority of my driving is done on motorways and on cruise control, but I merge from M40 to M42 without changing speed in the outside lane (larger radius corner) and also M42 to M6 again without changing speed (around 75) the tyres I rated as grippy do not protest to this, nor should they frankly, but some feel decidely nervy and the steering has a tendency to go light and feel as though the tyres are about to fold under you. I also agree that the stiffer tyres (I'm using 99XL right now) do hold up better. I also learned that the Mohawk (possible Chinese ditch finders) are actually Hankooks second brand and made by Goodyear, not that that is a benefit, but the carcass will probably be OK. I also note that these tyres need less in the way of balance weights and roll very smoothly.
So I don't need track day type grip, I do need low noise and I do so many miles that I like to have good life expectancy. A balance that I have found with what I have tried and with the Hankooks and Nexens, though the Hankooks are better IMO. The Falkens were so soft that I have to overinflate the front tyres to get any stability or grip, at stock pressures they were shocking. I also like to know the car is still under me in the wet esp. as the M6 in the rain between J6 and J9 is like a lake in places, the Nexens are good when new but hopeless when down to around 3mm, the Hankooks are good as well, the Pirellis frigtened me, and I couldn't get the Contis (SP2) to stop spinning at the rear off the line in the wet, not good.
Strangely I quite like the Yokohamas which seem better in the wet than the dry but a bit pricey. I also like Dunlop Sp01s but they don't last me much more than 12K.
There is a compromise for everyone, it just has to be found by the individual and be right for them. I'd love to use the outright grippiest / best in the wet / longest life / quitest tyre, but I don't think it exists yet.
I also read the whatcar and which tyre tests and the last one I read rated a no-name Chinese ditch finder as the best tyre out there and ahead of the mainstream big brands. Wierd!
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If it helps I've had Kumho KU31 tyres on the front for about 6k miles and been very happy with them so far. Plenty of grip, pretty quiet and seem to be wearing well.
I believe they've moved the factory to China though so not sure if newer ones are comparable.
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I have KU31s on at the moment and am happy with them but it will be interesting to see how Kumho's latest offerings compare.
Excellent for the money and quite good in the overall scheme of things, IMHO.
I remember not being that confident with them when they were new but that seems no longer to be a problem. ::)
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I have KU31s on at the moment and am happy with them but it will be interesting to see how Kumho's latest offerings compare.
Excellent for the money and quite good in the overall scheme of things, IMHO.
I remember not being that confident with them when they were new but that seems no longer to be a problem. ::)
Certainly no confidence issues on the way to the Hampshire meet :-X ::) ;D
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I have KU31s on at the moment and am happy with them but it will be interesting to see how Kumho's latest offerings compare.
Excellent for the money and quite good in the overall scheme of things, IMHO.
I remember not being that confident with them when they were new but that seems no longer to be a problem. ::)
Certainly no confidence issues on the way to the Hampshire meet :-X ::) ;D
But what sort of confidence...? :-/ :D
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I have KU31s on at the moment and am happy with them but it will be interesting to see how Kumho's latest offerings compare.
Excellent for the money and quite good in the overall scheme of things, IMHO.
I remember not being that confident with them when they were new but that seems no longer to be a problem. ::)
Certainly no confidence issues on the way to the Hampshire meet :-X ::) ;D
But what sort of confidence...? :-/ :D
Can't answer that as I was in the chase car following in my car :-X ::)
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Different car I know, but slapped ku31's on the rover this week, wasn't happy at all initially, but now the sheen is wearing off, it is starting to show signs of grip, time will tell.
This is the car previously shod with p6000 very successfully
As said, different car, different charateristics. On omega, I found ku31s to not give huge feedback, but these were other members cars, so not sure how old/previous driving style. And contrary to popular belief, I respect other peoples cars
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I have KU31s on at the moment and am happy with them but it will be interesting to see how Kumho's latest offerings compare.
Excellent for the money and quite good in the overall scheme of things, IMHO.
I remember not being that confident with them when they were new but that seems no longer to be a problem. ::)
Certainly no confidence issues on the way to the Hampshire meet :-X ::) ;D
But what sort of confidence...? :-/ :D
Can't answer that as I was in the chase car following in my car :-X ::)
Oh that sort, thought maybe you where in the car with him experiencing the other sort. ;D. :(. ;D
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Tyre chat seems to come up a lot on here, and it's always interesting to read. I read carefully on here before choosing Continental Sport Contact 2's for the fronts on my Elite, and the car feels good on them.
As others have said, a lot depends on driving style, but I think with any low-profile tyre on a large heavy car like the Omega (most especially the Elite, with all those additional electric motors to haul around!), tread depth is actually the vital thing. Don't let them get below 4mm - even the best premium brand tyre will convey a feeling of nervousness to the driver below that point.
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Tyre chat seems to come up a lot on here, and it's always interesting to read. I read carefully on here before choosing Continental Sport Contact 2's for the fronts on my Elite, and the car feels good on them.
As others have said, a lot depends on driving style, but I think with any low-profile tyre on a large heavy car like the Omega (most especially the Elite, with all those additional electric motors to haul around!), tread depth is actually the vital thing. Don't let them get below 4mm - even the best premium brand tyre will convey a feeling of nervousness to the driver below that point.
Continental Sport Contact 3`s came tops in EVO and Autocar tyre test`s last year, thats what I`ll be putting on next.
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Tyre chat seems to come up a lot on here, and it's always interesting to read. I read carefully on here before choosing Continental Sport Contact 2's for the fronts on my Elite, and the car feels good on them.
As others have said, a lot depends on driving style, but I think with any low-profile tyre on a large heavy car like the Omega (most especially the Elite, with all those additional electric motors to haul around!), tread depth is actually the vital thing. Don't let them get below 4mm - even the best premium brand tyre will convey a feeling of nervousness to the driver below that point.
Continental Sport Contact 3`s came tops in EVO and Autocar tyre test`s last year, thats what I`ll be putting on next.
Trouble with those tyre tests, assuming they are independent (;)), is they are testing on other cars than may well respond better to a particular tyre.
In the case of my MV6, I preferred the SC2 over the SC3, due to better grip and feedback :-/ - though I preferred the now obselete Dunlop SP9000 to either...
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Tread depth is an interesting part of it as said. How the tyre behaves as they wear over the last part of it's life is equally important as the start, and IMO is why nobody should form an opinion of a tyre until they are worn out.
My theory as to why, trailing arm suspension on the back works quite differently to mcphearson strut suspension on the front, camber seems to deflect a lot more on the front than the back because of these two designs. Add in the job of steering on the front only, and power driving the rear only, all conspire to wear the tyres in very different ways. Fronts loose the edges first and give a rounder profile, where as rears wear the middles flat as if over inflated giving the exact opposite profile.
Why is this relevant to tyre choice? Not all tyres behave the same under such wear, some handle it better than others possibly due to construction. And has been a major lesson learned in my much bemoaned Falken disaster. When new they where ok in the stability dept, not good, but merely ok! Still thought the wishbone bushes where buggered tbh but they point is they are a less stable tyre generally.
So add in the tyre wear characteristics of the car previously mentioned, in my case Elite suspension which is soft which will allow camber angles to deflect even more exaggerating that wear difference front to back, and an enthusiastic driving style pushing the suspension movement and hence camber deflection further still, and the end result for a tyre can mean binning them with 3 or 4 mill of tread left as the car simply will not go in a straight line.
Don't get me wrong falkens are not the only tyres to reach their level of poor handling(comparatively speaking of course), ask TB after his " something's broken, as if disconnected" concerns before changing tyres and the problem vanished. The point is at what stage do they reach this unusable level and they just have to be changed because they bother drives so badly?
From my experience, I would suggest, once again, the tyre wear and resulting handling degradation to be totally unacceptable on Falkens ESP the 912... But then I really should say similar of the suspension as well, and admit, bought the wrong tyre. :'(
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Yeah I'd agree tyre wear and tread depth plays a part.
I think 1.6mm is too low really, in Germany it's 3-4mm iirc which is more sensible.
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Yeah I'd agree tyre wear and tread depth plays a part.
I think 1.6mm is too low really, in Germany it's 3-4mm iirc which is more sensible.
Re handling seems to me it depends on the tyre, and by handling I mean straight line stability specifically. I guess ze Germanz have their autobahn related reasons...?
Mot and tread depths are the absolute base level IMO. Not uncommon to encounter related issues prior to any test failures.
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Yeah I'd agree tyre wear and tread depth plays a part.
I think 1.6mm is too low really, in Germany it's 3-4mm iirc which is more sensible.
Re handling seems to me it depends on the tyre, and by handling I mean straight line stability specifically. I guess ze Germanz have their autobahn related reasons...?
Mot and tread depths are the absolute base level IMO. Not uncommon to encounter related issues prior to any test failures.
I normally have to replace the front tyres before they wear below about 2.5mm as the shoulders wear due to the number of roundabouts I take at speed on my normal routes ::) ::)
Rears... Well, the rear Track Arms are seized solid so also wear the shoulders first but plan to sort that before the next WIM visit :y :y
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So what's the best way go manage it? Rotate the fronts to the back half way through, and then replace all 4?
Or, keep the fronts as new as possible and put the old fronts on the rear, or just bin the fronts?
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So what's the best way go manage it? Rotate the fronts to the back half way through, and then replace all 4?
Or, keep the fronts as new as possible and put the old fronts on the rear, or just bin the fronts?
Errm.... By the time I've "played" a little all 4 need doing about the same time normally ::) ::) ::)
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So what's the best way go manage it? Rotate the fronts to the back half way through, and then replace all 4?
Or, keep the fronts as new as possible and put the old fronts on the rear, or just bin the fronts?
Errm.... By the time I've "played" a little all 4 need doing about the same time normally ::) ::) ::)
So would you say it's worth rotating tyres half worn to minimize any effect on handling, or would that introduce more oddness?
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So what's the best way go manage it? Rotate the fronts to the back half way through, and then replace all 4?
Or, keep the fronts as new as possible and put the old fronts on the rear, or just bin the fronts?
Errm.... By the time I've "played" a little all 4 need doing about the same time normally ::) ::) ::)
So would you say it's worth rotating tyres half worn to minimize any effect on handling, or would that introduce more oddness?
I never bother TBH... I think it could just introduce another unknown in that the wear would be wrong for that axle :-/ :-/
Anyway, as we know, once the abnormal wear has started it will continue through the life of the tyre anyway ;) ;)
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As we have discussed before, I think the differences are based on what people expect from a tyre. But don't always specify those expectations when asking the question "wants the best tyre?" ...
Agreed. Other points to bear in mind are that tyre recommendations depend on the driver too, and are therefore not worth listening to unless you know that driver has similar expectation to yourself. Many (perhaps most?) drivers will never approach the limits of the tyre's grip in any conditions, so might rate a tyre as Ok when in fact the level of grip is rubbish.
Car type and condition comes into it as well. You won't tell the difference between a good and a bad tyre if you've got shot wishbone bushes and a 200k car on original suspension components. ;)
Kevin
agreed.. so the only trustable source is tire tests..
To a point yes, but as people have said a tyre can work very well on one car, and be awful on another. Unless the tyre test has been completed on a specific model of car, I don't think they are alot of use in the real world. :-/
nope.. can you calculate cars x tires product .. thats definitely unnecesary.. even by comparing them on a single car you will have measured units in your hand which will give info enough to compare..
and a tire grippy , succeeding in tests wont decide to behave different unless you have geometry problems or the test maker try to change results !!
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So what's the best way go manage it? Rotate the fronts to the back half way through, and then replace all 4?
Or, keep the fronts as new as possible and put the old fronts on the rear, or just bin the fronts?
Errm.... By the time I've "played" a little all 4 need doing about the same time normally ::) ::) ::)
So would you say it's worth rotating tyres half worn to minimize any effect on handling, or would that introduce more oddness?
I never bother TBH... I think it could just introduce another unknown in that the wear would be wrong for that axle :-/ :-/
Anyway, as we know, once the abnormal wear has started it will continue through the life of the tyre anyway ;) ;)
True, if left on the same axle.
Anyone bothered swapping?
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a very trustable tire shop said they must be swapped every 10K kms :o in order to get the best from them..
however I'm fed up with the scratched wheels so I'll sacrifice the tires earlier :-/
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a very trustable tire shop said they must be swapped every 10K kms :o in order to get the best from them..
I remember EVO magazine doing a test in 2009 and they took all the tyres with them to France where they did the test, while they were there they bought an identical set of a particular tyres but had been sat on the shelf for about 6 months. They had lost something like 5-10% grip just due to age in only six months :o
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a very trustable tire shop said they must be swapped every 10K kms :o in order to get the best from them..
I remember EVO magazine doing a test in 2009 and they took all the tyres with them to France where they did the test, while they were there they bought an identical set of a particular tyres but had been sat on the shelf for about 6 months. They had lost something like 5-10% grip just due to age in only six months :o
That's a very good point, all tyres have a date stamp, something like 3-11 iirc, 3rd month of 2011 depending. Although I 've only ever seen it on bike tyres tbh.... :-/
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Tread depth is an interesting part of it as said. How the tyre behaves as they wear over the last part of it's life is equally important as the start, and IMO is why nobody should form an opinion of a tyre until they are worn out.
My theory as to why, trailing arm suspension on the back works quite differently to mcphearson strut suspension on the front, camber seems to deflect a lot more on the front than the back because of these two designs. Add in the job of steering on the front only, and power driving the rear only, all conspire to wear the tyres in very different ways. Fronts loose the edges first and give a rounder profile, where as rears wear the middles flat as if over inflated giving the exact opposite profile.
Why is this relevant to tyre choice? Not all tyres behave the same under such wear, some handle it better than others possibly due to construction. And has been a major lesson learned in my much bemoaned Falken disaster. When new they where ok in the stability dept, not good, but merely ok! Still thought the wishbone bushes where buggered tbh but they point is they are a less stable tyre generally.
So add in the tyre wear characteristics of the car previously mentioned, in my case Elite suspension which is soft which will allow camber angles to deflect even more exaggerating that wear difference front to back, and an enthusiastic driving style pushing the suspension movement and hence camber deflection further still, and the end result for a tyre can mean binning them with 3 or 4 mill of tread left as the car simply will not go in a straight line.
Don't get me wrong falkens are not the only tyres to reach their level of poor handling(comparatively speaking of course), ask TB after his " something's broken, as if disconnected" concerns before changing tyres and the problem vanished. The point is at what stage do they reach this unusable level and they just have to be changed because they bother drives so badly?
From my experience, I would suggest, once again, the tyre wear and resulting handling degradation to be totally unacceptable on Falkens ESP the 912... But then I really should say similar of the suspension as well, and admit, bought the wrong tyre. :'(
I don't normally take my tyres down to the legal limit, but the lack of availability of my beloved SP9000 and trouble making up my mind in finding a suitable successor, meant it happened.
You drove it after rear bushes were done, and again when 'something was broken' episode, and the tyres had fallen off a cliff. Suddenly. Fortunately, your experience with the Falkens that I refused to drive after a couple of miles at Asheridge, you were able to say it was just the tyres had exceeded a certain point in their life.
I believe you and I don't have dissimilar driving styles most of the time, so as you rightly say, a tyre that suits us is unlikely to suit people like tunnie, for example. I must say, I *really* hate those michelin on the Elite, they are bloody awful from a grip point of view, but I am sure that a Sunday afternoon old duffer would love them? Though, no matter how spirited your style is, surely the one thing you must have from a tyre is grip?
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a very trustable tire shop said they must be swapped every 10K kms :o in order to get the best from them..
I remember EVO magazine doing a test in 2009 and they took all the tyres with them to France where they did the test, while they were there they bought an identical set of a particular tyres but had been sat on the shelf for about 6 months. They had lost something like 5-10% grip just due to age in only six months :o
That's a very good point, all tyres have a date stamp, something like 3-11 iirc, 3rd month of 2011 depending. Although I 've only ever seen it on bike tyres tbh.... :-/
On cars, its generally like 1103 - 2011, week 03
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I tend to rotate tyres on FWD, in order to always keep the best/newest tyres on rear.
Why?
In FWD, understeer is easier to deal with than oversteer. Also, ensures that the rears (which would easily last several years), don't go out of date (tyres have a 5yr life).
On my Omegas, I tend not to bother. WIM see my car often enough to keep the wear even, and wear rate is approx the same front and rear, and they tend to have 4 tyres at a time, which always helps maintain its balance
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Tread depth is an interesting part of it as said. How the tyre behaves as they wear over the last part of it's life is equally important as the start, and IMO is why nobody should form an opinion of a tyre until they are worn out.
My theory as to why, trailing arm suspension on the back works quite differently to mcphearson strut suspension on the front, camber seems to deflect a lot more on the front than the back because of these two designs. Add in the job of steering on the front only, and power driving the rear only, all conspire to wear the tyres in very different ways. Fronts loose the edges first and give a rounder profile, where as rears wear the middles flat as if over inflated giving the exact opposite profile.
Why is this relevant to tyre choice? Not all tyres behave the same under such wear, some handle it better than others possibly due to construction. And has been a major lesson learned in my much bemoaned Falken disaster. When new they where ok in the stability dept, not good, but merely ok! Still thought the wishbone bushes where buggered tbh but they point is they are a less stable tyre generally.
So add in the tyre wear characteristics of the car previously mentioned, in my case Elite suspension which is soft which will allow camber angles to deflect even more exaggerating that wear difference front to back, and an enthusiastic driving style pushing the suspension movement and hence camber deflection further still, and the end result for a tyre can mean binning them with 3 or 4 mill of tread left as the car simply will not go in a straight line.
Don't get me wrong falkens are not the only tyres to reach their level of poor handling(comparatively speaking of course), ask TB after his " something's broken, as if disconnected" concerns before changing tyres and the problem vanished. The point is at what stage do they reach this unusable level and they just have to be changed because they bother drives so badly?
From my experience, I would suggest, once again, the tyre wear and resulting handling degradation to be totally unacceptable on Falkens ESP the 912... But then I really should say similar of the suspension as well, and admit, bought the wrong tyre. :'(
I don't normally take my tyres down to the legal limit, but the lack of availability of my beloved SP9000 and trouble making up my mind in finding a suitable successor, meant it happened.
You drove it after rear bushes were done, and again when 'something was broken' episode, and the tyres had fallen off a cliff. Suddenly. Fortunately, your experience with the Falkens that I refused to drive after a couple of miles at Asheridge, you were able to say it was just the tyres had exceeded a certain point in their life.
I believe you and I don't have dissimilar driving styles most of the time, so as you rightly say, a tyre that suits us is unlikely to suit people like tunnie, for example. I must say, I *really* hate those michelin on the Elite, they are bloody awful from a grip point of view, but I am sure that a Sunday afternoon old duffer would love them? Though, no matter how spirited your style is, surely the one thing you must have from a tyre is grip?
On your Dunlops, that point is at an acceptable level of wear, on the Falkens(912) that point of unacceptability was reached with 3/4mill of tread left. Now given that Falkens are cheaper than Dunlops, that makes Falkens a very expensive tyre if they only have a half life. And your michelins( that cost a lot to buy) would be a very cheap tyre, given that they last for bloody ever(35k if driven sensibly) and handle comparatively well to the end of their life.
If you can live without a level of grip that is.... :-/. If a driver gets out and pushes the car round corners, and never gets enough speed up to challenge the brakes, then why pay extra(as in cost per mile) for grip that's never used...? I would argue emergency stop. But drivers of that ilk might be more happy to use other objects to slow them down rather than loose a smidge of tyre wear. :-X
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There also has to be another consideration IMHO and that's road noise, now if you are only after tyre performance then the road noise doesn't matter but personally I have to say the noise from the SP Sport MAXX on my V6 makes the car noisier to drive than my Diesel which is surely not what a car in the Omega class should be.
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There also has to be another consideration IMHO and that's road noise, now if you are only after tyre performance then the road noise doesn't matter but personally I have to say the noise from the SP Sport MAXX on my V6 makes the car noisier to drive than my Diesel which is surely not what a car in the Omega class should be.
What you need is a shitload of knackered lifters to mask the Sport MAXX tyre noise ;D
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Didn't think they where too bad tbh. Noisier than Falkens, ime, but most tyres are, but quieter than potenza, and possibly sc3... Would need to compare though. :-/
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Didn't think they where too bad tbh. Noisier than Falkens, ime, but most tyres are, but quieter than potenza, and possibly sc3... Would need to compare though. :-/
SC3s were a lot quieter than the Sport Maxx I had.
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Thought I'd give an update on the Khumos.
Following the success of the KU31s I went in for new rear tyres but they'd run out. What he did have was KH31s. The H is supposed to be harder wearing - same price (£92 each fitted etc.) and isn't directional so I can keep switching them over after the roundabouts scrub one side raw.
Been about a 1000 miles in them now and grippy they ain't. The tyres I took off were pretty much slicks and they grip less than that! After the first roundabout it wasn't just the road that had skid-marks. What was the term above? Ah yes, chinese ditch finders. Perfect description.
Lesson learned. The KU31s are worth a try but unless you're a really sedate driver, don't bother with the KH31s.
J