Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: DTC on 08 May 2011, 21:29:20
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I have just completed a cam belt water pump and auxillary belt change on my lovely V6 and now it runs like a piece of farm machinery!
I changed the plugs whilst i had easier access and when I discovered the problem I put the old ones back in but this hasn't cured it.
I am motoring on a budget and am scared to take the car out at all like this. Can anyone please offer any advice?
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Either timing is out or you`ve not re-connected a plug somewhere. Any codes on the pedal trick :question
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Possibilities are:
Air leak
Dis pack plugged in wrong (if disturbed)
Timing out
Something unplugged
Is the eml on?
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Pretty sure i have re connected all the plugs - how would the timing be out? I know i didnt use the locking kit, but was advised by other mechanics you didn't need the proper kit? Wold it really send it this bad?
What's the pedal trick?
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Emi flashes for a bit then goes to permanent spanner
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Pretty sure i have re connected all the plugs - how would the timing be out? I know i didnt use the locking kit, but was advised by other mechanics you didn't need the proper kit? Wold it really send it this bad?
What's the pedal trick?
Unfortunately you've been given bad advice :( To get the timing spot on you must use the correct Locking/Timing tools.
If you haven't got the timing spot on how it used to be, which is probably what has happened, it will run rough
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Pretty sure i have re connected all the plugs - how would the timing be out? I know i didnt use the locking kit, but was advised by other mechanics you didn't need the proper kit? Wold it really send it this bad?
What's the pedal trick?
Because you need a locking kit to do it properly.
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Pretty sure i have re connected all the plugs - how would the timing be out? I know i didnt use the locking kit, but was advised by other mechanics you didn't need the proper kit? Wold it really send it this bad?
What's the pedal trick?
Oh break :o
You do need a timing kit, it simply cannot be done without it. Don't listen to any retard who says it can
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You have answered your own question mate, you have not used a locking kit. . :-?
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....how would the timing be out? I know i didnt use the locking kit, ....
you've pretty much answered your own question. ::)
Put another way, if you didn't use a locking kit, can you be sure the timing is correct? :-/
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At best, you may just need to retime it using proper kit, and reset tensioner (you did change the tensioner and the idler pulleys?).
At worse, you may have some bent valves :'(
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Hope you have not got more than 2 teeth out else good night 24 valves :-?
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have I done any damage? I should have used the correct locking kit I know now- but for £65 for something i would use once seemed a lot of money to just leave on a shelf once used . Just had a new born and the cam kit and pump just cost me enough!
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... it simply cannot be done without it. ....
It can be done, just not very accurately, and it's not easy to see the mark on the crank. ;)
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have I done any damage? .....
We don't know how far out your timing is. I doubt your pistons have met the valves .............. but who knows. :-/ :-/
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Hope you have not got more than 2 teeth out else good night 24 valves :-?
I dont think it would be running if it had 24 bent valves :(
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... it simply cannot be done without it. ....
It can be done, just not very accurately, and it's not easy to see the mark on the crank. ;)
No, it can't. Its luck if the tensioner is anywhere near correct.
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have I done any damage? I should have used the correct locking kit I know now- but for £65 for something i would use once seemed a lot of money to just leave on a shelf once used . Just had a new born and the cam kit and pump just cost me enough!
Ten times cheaper though if you have bent your valves :-?
How many times must it be said on this forum " you need to use a cam locking kit!"
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Hope you have not got more than 2 teeth out else good night 24 valves :-?
I dont think it would be running if it had 24 bent valves :(
Unlikely to have ruined all 24 - that would have to be a couple of teeth out on all 4 cams.
First port of call is to retime it using the correct timing kit.
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... it simply cannot be done without it. ....
It can be done, just not very accurately, and it's not easy to see the mark on the crank. ;)
No, it can't. Its luck if the tensioner is anywhere near correct.
bolox :-? :-?. there have been plenty that have been done without, just not accurately.
What's the tensioner got to do with the timing? :-? :-? :-?
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Hope you have not got more than 2 teeth out else good night 24 valves :-?
I dont think it would be running if it had 24 bent valves :(
I have driven an Omega with bent valves for about 60 miles. .
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... it simply cannot be done without it. ....
It can be done, just not very accurately, and it's not easy to see the mark on the crank. ;)
No, it can't. Its luck if the tensioner is anywhere near correct.
bolox :-? :-?. there have been plenty that have been done without, just not accurately.
What's the tensioner got to do with the timing? :-? :-? :-?
The tensioner has absolutely everything to do with the timing. Thats why the tensioner has to specifically set at TDC ;)
If the tensioner is wrong, its easy for the rest of it to end up more than the critical 2 teeth out, esp if it was guessed in the first place (so potentially 1 or 2 teeth out to start with).
What we certainly dont need is people saying it can be done without the kit. It can't. Somebody telling DTC you can may potentially have caused him several hundred pounds of damage >:(
It cannot be done properly. It cannot be done accurate. It cannot be done safely.
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Hope you have not got more than 2 teeth out else good night 24 valves :-?
I dont think it would be running if it had 24 bent valves :(
I have driven an Omega with bent valves for about 60 miles. .
Not 24 bent valves though... surely?
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Hope you have not got more than 2 teeth out else good night 24 valves :-?
I dont think it would be running if it had 24 bent valves :(
I have driven an Omega with bent valves for about 60 miles. .
Not 24 bent valves though...
Depends how bent I guess - might still get enough compression if they've just clipped...
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Hope you have not got more than 2 teeth out else good night 24 valves :-?
I dont think it would be running if it had 24 bent valves :(
I have driven an Omega with bent valves for about 60 miles. .
Not 24 bent valves though... surely?
Perhaps not 24. . . But the Cambelt had broken and it was running on 3 cylinders. . That means half of the valves were bent. . ;)
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The tensioner has absolutely everything to do with the timing. Thats why the tensioner has to specifically set at TDC ;) .....
You're wrong. :-? You can get the belt on correctly & not get the tensioner set right, conversely everything could be a mile out but have the tensioner set correctly. The tensioner is doing just that, holding the slack side of the cam belt run.
The tensioner has sod all to do with the accuracy of the timing.
How are you checking for top dead centre, the car doesn't have makings for it.
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The tensioner has absolutely everything to do with the timing. Thats why the tensioner has to specifically set at TDC ;) .....
You're wrong. :-? You can get the belt on correctly & not get the tensioner set right, conversely everything could be a mile out but have the tensioner set correctly. The tensioner is doing just that, holding the slack side of the cam belt run.
The tensioner has sod all to do with the accuracy of the timing.
How are you checking for top dead centre, the car doesn't have makings for it.
Nope, disagree entirely.
TDC is marked, albeit it poorly. But thats the point of the cranklock.
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The tensioner has absolutely everything to do with the timing. Thats why the tensioner has to specifically set at TDC ;)
Agreed. Exact relative positions of the cams and crank determine where the slack in the belt is located, since the valve springs will be acting against the cams and influencing the belt tension.
Next time you've used the kit to correctly time the belt, watch what happens to the tensioner markings as you turn the engine over. All over the place. They are correct for one position of the crank and cams only.
Kevin
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The tensioner has absolutely everything to do with the timing. Thats why the tensioner has to specifically set at TDC ;)
Agreed. Exact relative positions of the cams and crank determine where the slack in the belt is located, since the valve springs will be acting against the cams and influencing the belt tension.
Next time you've used the kit to correctly time the belt, watch what happens to the tensioner markings as you turn the engine over. All over the place. They are correct for one position of the crank and cams only.
Kevin
So how does a correctly set tensioner have any bearing on where the belt is relative to cams & crank?
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Read Kevins post mate ;)
I've read it. It's not right either.
Try setting the cam belt in the WRONG place (obviously only a small margin of error is possible unless you've deep pockets) Set the tensioner correctly & watch the tensioner - it'll do exactly the same thing ie 'be all over the place'. It moves because the cank is taking up tension ofn the rest of the belt & the tensioner is doing what it knows best .......... tensioning.
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I need a brickwall to give myself a headache.
The fact that the tensioner moves throughout the cycle shows that it moves thoughtout the cycle. Obviously.
The tensioner is ONLY correct at that ONE specific point, and ONLY if the crank and cams are in that very SPECIFIC position.
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I need a brickwall to give myself a headache.. ....
I'll share your wall ......... cos I'm feeling the same. :-?
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Hope you have not got more than 2 teeth out else good night 24 valves :-?
I dont think it would be running if it had 24 bent valves :(
I have driven an Omega with bent valves for about 60 miles. .
I still have a chuckle about that ;D :y
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I need a brickwall to give myself a headache.. ....
I'll share your wall ......... cos I'm feeling the same. :-?
Just agree to disagree then :y For what its worth, I once watched a mobile mechanic replace a belt kit on a 2.5 vectra, he set it at tdc , put 2pairs of finger grips on the cam pulleys set the tensioner to whatever, and the car ran perfectly. just lucky I guess ;D
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I need a brickwall to give myself a headache.. ....
I'll share your wall ......... cos I'm feeling the same. :-?
Just agree to disagree then :y For what its worth, I once watched a mobile mechanic replace a belt kit on a 2.5 vectra, he set it at tdc , put 2pairs of finger grips on the cam pulleys set the tensioner to whatever, and the car ran perfectly. just lucky I guess ;D
Cowboy on a horse ;D
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Thread pruned of un-needed posts.
Please keep on topic.
ta... :y
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We have strayed off topic and are no longer helping the OP.
He needs to refit the cam belt using the proper locking kit and following the correct procedure then determine if the engine has suffered any damage.
Locking
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Unlocked as really not helping OP who needs this thread..
Ok, NO MORE DISCUSSIONS ON YES / NO TO TIMING KIT IN THIS THREAD. (they WILL be deleted)
The car does need its timing checked definately.
BUT youve also stripped / replaced a lot more than that.
You say you had a flashing and solid EML. Do the pedal trick and post the codes, this could yet be something unrelated to the belt.
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Thanks for the advice guys, I have purchased the locking kit this morning and will start again tonight after work.
I don't think there is any damage - it just runs lumpy.
Do I need to physically move the cams before I lock them out if one is slightly out of line?
Are there any specific markings on the crank so I can make sure it is at TDC?
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Unlocked as really not helping OP who needs this thread..
Well done Jb 8-) - this thread is the essence of the OOF, it's been fascinating and an object lesson in how things can go radically wrong if shortcuts are taken when working on this engine in particular. :y :y
It will also be interesting to see if DTC gets a resolution to his problem.
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Thanks for the advice guys, I have purchased the locking kit this morning and will start again tonight after work.
I don't think there is any damage - it just runs lumpy.
Do I need to physically move the cams before I lock them out if one is slightly out of line?
Are there any specific markings on the crank so I can make sure it is at TDC?
PLEASE before you undo as much as another bolt, please do a pedal test for fault codes, car doesnt need to be running, so will get you a known point snapshot before you strip down again and add more unknowns. (link in my sig if you dont know how :y )
could really be as simple as one coil pack not connected properly.
(but yes, adjust the timing properly when you get the kit)
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To the OP, I'm sure you said in another thread that you've bought the DVD? That explains it very well :y
The crank locking tool will ensure you position the crank correctly. If the timing is out to a point where you can't get the cam locks in, you may have to adjust them individually but wait until you've checked.
If you do have to move the cams independently you must turn the crank back to 60 degrees(?) (someone will confirm that) before TDC to avoid damage.
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[split] [link=http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1304930089/0#0][splithere][/link][splithere_end]
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DTC needs to check his DTC's if you ask me... (Detected trouble codes) the orange light tells you there's a problem.
The pedal trick will tell you what that problem is without even opening the bonnet!!!
It's true to say "some" engines don't need a locking kit although it's wise to acquire one if available. The omega v engine however is differamt as the cam position needs adjusting to the nearest fraction of a millimeter to get it right. While it's possible to get the belt kit fitted without a locking kit as I did exactly that in my pre forum days, I have since learned from members here that it simply is not possible to do it accurately without a locking kit.
Later 2.6 and 3.2 engines have a fixed pilluy that sets cams 3+4 automatically, so unless the teeth are miles out there then 1+2 might be your issue.
But as JB says, do the pedal trick first, could just be a dodgy plug connection or sumat daft.... Hopefully.
Post is an opinion for the OP.
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Thanks for the advice guys, I have purchased the locking kit this morning and will start again tonight after work.
I don't think there is any damage - it just runs lumpy.
Do I need to physically move the cams before I lock them out if one is slightly out of line?
Are there any specific markings on the crank so I can make sure it is at TDC?
that's what the crank lock in the locking kit is for. You'll see. :y
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My guess is that if substantial damage was done you wouldn't have a problem with it running rough... it wouldn't run at all! Don't use it until you've done the timing properly using a kit. Buying (£65???) is a bit steep for something you're not going to use so much; agreed. Find Autovaux online and hire from them.
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...duh! Sorry, I missed the argument on P2 & 3 ::)
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Right, I got home tonight and did the pedal trick (thanks to all for the helpful threads and advice). It was showing code 0100. I proceeded to strip down to the cambelt again and discovered that once I had put the crank lock on, three and four bank were spot on and two was out maybe 1 tooth and number one was out a tooth and a half. I reset and fitted correct locks this time!!!
Haven't finished putting it back together yet because I lost light, but I hope I have been lucky and have learnt my lesson.
Would the code in your opinion point to the timing being out?
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http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1220619696
MAF.....
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just shows you that without the proper kit the cams cannot be set correctly. been there done that & thanks to DLK for putting it all right a couple of years ago. :y
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Yup, thats a code for the MAF.
what we dont know, is if it was there before, or whether youve accidently missed the connection, or its not made properly, so double check that 1st.
the 2.6 and 3.2 MAF's are the least reliable of the bunch, so maybe time for a new one.
Personally I would buy a Bosch, from ebay ,or vauxhall parts world, wherever has a good price at the time.
My advice would also be to avoid the cheap chinese copies, often just a resistor to fool the ecu.
Well done on sorting the timing, doesnt sound enough to cause a mechanical problem, but sure as hell wouldnt run well / economically / powerfully, you will prob get the cost back on that kit in saved fuel :y
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Yup, thats a code for the MAF.
what we dont know, is if it was there before, or whether youve accidently missed the connection, or its not made properly, so double check that 1st.
the 2.6 and 3.2 MAF's are the least reliable of the bunch, so maybe time for a new one.
Personally I would buy a Bosch, from ebay ,or vauxhall parts world, wherever has a good price at the time.
My advice would also be to avoid the cheap chinese copies, often just a resistor to fool the ecu.
Well done on sorting the timing, doesnt sound enough to cause a mechanical problem, but sure as hell wouldnt run well / economically / powerfully, you will prob get the cost back on that kit in saved fuel :y
No there not, a resistor would do nowt and the ECU would spot it straight away. :y
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fair enough, certainly heard they are not to be recommended.
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entertaining thread. amaznig the amount of d*** measuring that goes on, irrelvant to the OP :-)
Hoping you got it sorted DTC, let us know when you run it up
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Before condemning maf, see how it runs after it's timed - might be the rough running erroneously flagged this code
1.5 teeth, you should have got away with it, thankfully :)
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Before condemning maf, see how it runs after it's timed - might be the rough running erroneously flagged this code
1.5 teeth, you should have got away with it, thankfully :)
Agreed, the valve timing will be out such that the airflow will be affected (and hence the measured airflow will be less than expected by the ECU given the throttle position and revs)
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Wow, i'm glad i got Darth to do mine. No worries for 40.000/4 years :y :y . Runs perfect :y
Next one due at 188k
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Sorry for the late update guys - I was away for the weekend. Well I ran the car up and phew it was fine! Apart from now i can't get rid of the spanner light on the dash!
If anyone reading this is even considering doing the timing belt without the correct locking kit - seriously don't!!! I was lucky this time.
Locate the kit by whatever means and follow the DVD and you can't go wrong.
Thanks to all who contributed for the kind advice.
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Glad your finally sorted and the car is fine(ish) :y
Whats the fault code? Still the MAF one?
How many miles / starts have you had since sorting the belt?
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Great to see that update. 8-) :y
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Code is still 0100 MAF on the pedal trick, and the car runs perfect - so no problems with the MAF as far as I can see.
The car has maybe covered 6 - 8 miles and has had about 5 - 6 starts.
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prob not enough for it to autodelete yet then.
See how it goes after a week or 2 :y
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Code is still 0100 MAF on the pedal trick, and the car runs perfect - so no problems with the MAF as far as I can see.
The car has maybe covered 6 - 8 miles and has had about 5 - 6 starts.
if the light is on, then the car still says there's a fault. If you're just getting the fault code via the pedal trick then you need to either clear the fault with code reader or it needs more like 20 'clean starts' for the ECU to forget about the logged code. ;)
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DTC, any member near you with a reader that can do live data?
Sadly, down on the Northants/Oxon/Bucks border, I'm not exactly nearby...
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If maf was faulty would we not see fuel trim malfunction? Or ist this simply a poor connection problem? I know we need a reader to confirm but....
.... Wondering if op could be looking for an air leak in the mean time?
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Apart from the possible historic issue...
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Glad to have read this. Although only have 2.0l and maybe not as difficult to d, definitely valuable llessons being learnt by me here.
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Glad you got it sorted mate and recognise the absolute need to use the locking kit for correct timing.
If its runnig ok now would ignore the MAF code for a while. If you still feel its not spot on try running it with MAF disconnected - if it runs better points to duff MAF.
HTH :y