Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Tezray on 23 May 2011, 19:39:20
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As some of you may be aware, i'm currently having problems with my Stag 300 lpg system. It's running, but quite rough and returning very poor mpg (around 14-15).
I got hold of the interface lead today and i've just been out and plugged in to the lpg ecu. I've had the car running on gas and had a look through all the parameters but I really can't see any obvious problems with it. It's definately running a bit rough and it sounds uneven when i rev it, the car also shakes on idle due to the uneven running :-/
Can anyone point me in a good direction? As i'm not really sure what I need to look at. All the injectors appeared to be firing and all had v.similar injection times. I did notice that the lpg was happy to run below 30 degree's, even though the 'switchover temp' is set a 30 degree's. I did think this was odd and suggests that the ecu is ignoring this parameter? And possibly more??
Any help would be very gratefully received :y
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How does it run on petrol ?
With LPG, it can run great on petrol but cr*p on gas :-/
What condition are your plugs and coil pack in ?
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It runs great on petrol, it's smooth and the powers always there. It also returns fairly good mpg on petrol (i'm averaging about 28 at the moment). Is there anyway I can test the leads or coil pack? I recently changed the spark plugs and it didn't make a blind bit of difference.
Could 1 or 2 of the injectors be blocked? Would that show up on the gas synchro software?
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You can shut down individual injectors using the stag software to help you narrow down the possible faulty one :y
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How do LPG injector times tie up to petrol injector times?
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You can shut down individual injectors using the stag software to help you narrow down the possible faulty one :y
Cheers PhilRich, how do I do that? Do I just click on the injector in the bottom right hand corner?
TheBoy, how do I know how the times tie up? Sorry for being a complete amateur, tonight is the first time i've ever looked at it... do I need to look at the ms times on the right hand side of the AC screen?
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yes and yes
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On idle the reading was about 3.5 ms on each injector. I'll have another play tomorrow and report back :y
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Unfortunately it's very difficult to do any form of diagnosis without seeing it. :( You could try PMing Jamesv6cdx and asking him if he can have a look at some point or try and make it to the Bucks meet next Monday :y
But... It sounds like it may be an HT issue to me and nothing particularly wrong with the LPG ;)
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Does sound like ignition to me. Engine leaping around means it's imbalanced. So one cylinder is sick on gas perhaps? A pair of cylinders gives quite even balance but it's sounds like a scooby.
If plugs are new ish then I'd be checking plug leads etc although dis could well be the cause too.
LPG is harder to ignite than petrol so any weakness in spark and LPG will magnify it.
Play with the software and see if you can chime one cylinder in at a time on gas as said. Having said that I know the software can do that, but I don't know how to do it either. ;D. ... Although I never needed to tbh. ;).... Not yet anyway. :-X
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I would say, at idle, an ignition issue would not affect only LPG. Maybe under load, but not at idle.
I reckon it's either very poorly mapped or an injector has blocked.
Switch it to gas and check the LPG vapour pressure and temperature and MAP readings (in fact all the live parameters you can see on the right hand side of the screen).
Also, check the 6 injector times at idle on petrol, then watch what happens to them when you switch to LPG.
Switch it to LPG at idle, and click on each of the 6 injectors at the bottom right of the screen, one at a time. Clicking once switches the cylinder to petrol, clicking again goes back to LPG. See if any of the injectors makes a marked improvement when switched to petrol. Keep an eye on the 6 injector durations at the same time. Again, see if any one cylinder makes a big difference.
Also check for stored error codes in the LPG ECU (one of the tabs gives you a page to display these, can't remember the name).
If you can post screen shots of the configuration pages in the ECU software (and the tuning map) that might help us spot something.
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Having said that I know the software can do that, but I don't know how to do it either. ;D. ... Although I never needed to tbh. ;).... Not yet anyway. :-X
You really are tempting fate!
Thanks for your help chaps, when I get home i'll plug it in and see what I can find out. Being able to narrow it down to 1 or 2 cylinders would be useful, whether it's a fueling or ignition issue.
I may well whip the injectors off tonight and have them ultrasonically cleaned at work tomorrow, i'm sure that can't do any harm. I would have fitted a new filter yesterday but it didn't arrive with my interface lead like it was supposed to :(
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Mine has started running very rough on gas since yesterday, when I resealed the oil coler plate and then put all the inlet stuff back on.
I may well be "bumping into" Lazydocker shortly, so hopefully he will have some ideas. :-/
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My money is on dying coil pack! Good luck
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Well i've had her plugged in again and it appears that my problem is with....
Cylinder 6 (mostly) and a fraction cylinder 3.
I ran the engine on lpg and it was rough as usual, but when i switch cylinder 6 to petrol it becomes 90% smoother. Then, with cylinder 6 and 3 on petrol it runs beautifully.
LPG pressure is about 1.3 bar, LPG temp. was 45, MAP is around 0.39, lambda's are around 0.45 and injection times both on lpg and petrol are between 2.9 and 3.1 ms.
Looks/sounds to me like cylinder 6 could be quite blocked? I think it's worth removing both injector rails and cleaning them out. I suppose I could have debris in the nozzles as well?
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Funnily enough, LD plugged into mine today and it was also cylinder 6. Im almost certain I have crimped the pipe to the injector during reassembly yesterday.
He turned the injector off so number 6 runs on petrol, but as I drove away it started running rough again and has continueed to do so - has the injector switched itself back on ?? :-/ ::)
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Aren't Cyl 6 and 3 run off the same coil in the DIS pack?
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Funnily enough, LD plugged into mine today and it was also cylinder 6. Im almost certain I have crimped the pipe to the injector during reassembly yesterday.
He turned the injector off so number 6 runs on petrol, but as I drove away it started running rough again and has continueed to do so - has the injector switched itself back on ?? :-/ ::)
Could have done... Perhaps you can only disable a cylinder when the lappy is plugged in :-/ :-/
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Funnily enough, LD plugged into mine today and it was also cylinder 6. Im almost certain I have crimped the pipe to the injector during reassembly yesterday.
He turned the injector off so number 6 runs on petrol, but as I drove away it started running rough again and has continueed to do so - has the injector switched itself back on ?? :-/ ::)
Could have done... Perhaps you can only disable a cylinder when the lappy is plugged in :-/ :-/
Can you not just unplug injector six to see if that cures it for now, until you find the source of the problem or will the system throw up a fault and not run on gas?
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Funnily enough, LD plugged into mine today and it was also cylinder 6. Im almost certain I have crimped the pipe to the injector during reassembly yesterday.
He turned the injector off so number 6 runs on petrol, but as I drove away it started running rough again and has continueed to do so - has the injector switched itself back on ?? :-/ ::)
Could have done... Perhaps you can only disable a cylinder when the lappy is plugged in :-/ :-/
Can you not just unplug injector six to see if that cures it for now, until you find the source of the problem or will the system throw up a fault and not run on gas?
Yep ;)
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I may have made some progress... i've been stripping the injectors down and the o-ring seals appear to be goosed, with cylinder 6 looking fairly bad! So I need to get hold of some replacement o-rings and go from there. I may get the repair kits on fleabay.
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I may have made some progress... i've been stripping the injectors down and the o-ring seals appear to be goosed, with cylinder 6 looking fairly bad! So I need to get hold of some replacement o-rings and go from there. I may get the repair kits on fleabay.
Just out of interest... What make are the injectors?
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I think they're valtek but it doesn't say anywhere. I've got them fully apart and the o-rings on the end of the plungers are knackered, there is carbon build up on the plungers so they are suffering from gas blow-by. There are 2 other o-rings on each injector that could also do with replacing.
I'm going to rebuild them all with the repair kits and I think i'll see a big improvement. Fingers crossed it'll solve the rough running, but we shall see!
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I think they're valtek but it doesn't say anywhere. I've got them fully apart and the o-rings on the end of the plungers are knackered, there is carbon build up on the plungers so they are suffering from gas blow-by. There are 2 other o-rings on each injector that could also do with replacing.
I'm going to rebuild them all with the repair kits and I think i'll see a big improvement. Fingers crossed it'll solve the rough running, but we shall see!
That's a surprise... The Valtek ones are normally pretty reliable :-/ :-/ Mine have done over 50k and fine ;)
I was expecting you to say Magic Jet as they tend to suffer if "dirty" gas is introduced ::)
Keep us informed :y
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Mine started idling really rough about a week ago on LPG and was perfect on petrol. To cut a long story short, I eventually pulled the injectors apart and found one of the O rings had broken up and was floating about inside the injector body. The O ring looked to me to be a sort of bump stop and does not form the seal for the gas, I may be wrong! So I cleaned the others up and put them back together.
The lumpy idle has improved dramatically, but I have a loud tick from the one that failed.
OK for now and have ordered a new Valtek injector rail.
Very similar to your problem it seems to me.
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Funnily enough, LD plugged into mine today and it was also cylinder 6. Im almost certain I have crimped the pipe to the injector during reassembly yesterday.
He turned the injector off so number 6 runs on petrol, but as I drove away it started running rough again and has continueed to do so - has the injector switched itself back on ?? :-/ ::)
Could have done... Perhaps you can only disable a cylinder when the lappy is plugged in :-/ :-/[/quote]
That was the conclusion I reached while driving down to chavtown. Seemed the only logical conclusion.
Still, were fairly certain what the problem is, so it should be just a matter of me taking the plenum/fanimold off and sorting it. :y
Thanks for that btw, I could have been fiddling about forever trying to locate the issue. :y
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Mine started idling really rough about a week ago on LPG and was perfect on petrol. To cut a long story short, I eventually pulled the injectors apart and found one of the O rings had broken up and was floating about inside the injector body. The O ring looked to me to be a sort of bump stop and does not form the seal for the gas, I may be wrong! So I cleaned the others up and put them back together.
The lumpy idle has improved dramatically, but I have a loud tick from the one that failed.
OK for now and have ordered a new Valtek injector rail.
Very similar to your problem it seems to me.
It certainly sounds like it, although further investigation has shown that my injectors may be "Apache" :-? as seen here second one down;
http://keshzen.com/lpg_cng_injector.aspx
and here;
http://www.ec21.com/product-details/LPG-CNG-Rail-Injector--3432962.html
I've been trying to find replacement Nitrile o-ring seals today but haven't had any luck so far. I think you're right about 1 of the o-rings acting as a bump stop, which is why mine are also quite loud as when the injector opens the 2 metal surfaces meet (as those o-rings have had it). There are then 2 more o-rings, 1 as the main seal and 1 as a backup, it's the main sealing o-rings that have crumbled.
Looking at the repair kits on ebay, the components look the same as mine so are mine Apache or Valtek? Maybe they're one and the same thing :question
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Valtek type 30's are the injectors most of us are running.
http://www.valtek.it/Prodotti/Rail-iniezione/Tipo-30-Rail-iniezione-Gpl-Metano.aspx?lang=en-US
Kevin
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When i've been looking through the forum I thought my injectors looked different to everyone else's. Maybe it's due to the age of my system? I believe it was installed in 2008.
If I bought some new Valtek type 30's, would they be a straight swap (with a recalibration)? Would the lpg ecu be happy to run them? I'm wondering if i'm wasting my time trying to bring these injectors back to life, I may be better off just replacing them.
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Different injectors have different coil impedances which changes how the ECU must drive them, in addition to the flow rates being different, so requiring a recalibration. You would need to set you ECU for the type of injector before connecting them, as they can be damaged if driven wrongly.
Other than that, as long as the connectors and plumbing fits, it should work.
If your current ones only need a refurb with some new seals, surely that's worth pursuing over the expense of new injectors, though?
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You might be right, i'm just concerned that my injectors are inferior and my economy/performance may suffer. It's worth replacing the seals though and going from there.
The other concern I have with them is that the nozzles have been drilled out to around 3.0 - 3.1 mm which from what i've read is far too big :o
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You might be right, i'm just concerned that my injectors are inferior and my economy/performance may suffer. It's worth replacing the seals though and going from there.
The other concern I have with them is that the nozzles have been drilled out to around 3.0 - 3.1 mm which from what i've read is far too big :o
No, I'd say that's about right for the vapour pressure you're running, and that's about what we use with the Valtek injectors on a V6. :y
Kevin
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Mine started idling really rough about a week ago on LPG and was perfect on petrol. To cut a long story short, I eventually pulled the injectors apart and found one of the O rings had broken up and was floating about inside the injector body. The O ring looked to me to be a sort of bump stop and does not form the seal for the gas, I may be wrong! So I cleaned the others up and put them back together.
The lumpy idle has improved dramatically, but I have a loud tick from the one that failed.
OK for now and have ordered a new Valtek injector rail.
Very similar to your problem it seems to me.
It certainly sounds like it, although further investigation has shown that my injectors may be "Apache" :-? as seen here second one down;
http://keshzen.com/lpg_cng_injector.aspx
and here;
http://www.ec21.com/product-details/LPG-CNG-Rail-Injector--3432962.html
I've been trying to find replacement Nitrile o-ring seals today but haven't had any luck so far. I think you're right about 1 of the o-rings acting as a bump stop, which is why mine are also quite loud as when the injector opens the 2 metal surfaces meet (as those o-rings have had it). There are then 2 more o-rings, 1 as the main seal and 1 as a backup, it's the main sealing o-rings that have crumbled.
Looking at the repair kits on ebay, the components look the same as mine so are mine Apache or Valtek? Maybe they're one and the same thing :question
I have the same injector rail. Seems to be made in China but the internals seem the same as Valtek. On my Stag software, it is set to run as a Valtek 3 ohm set.
I have just got a new Valtek set of injectors for £38 delivered. Going to swap them when I get time and recalibrate. If the internals are the same, I will get some Valtek reconditioning kits off ebay and sort the old injectors as a spare. Most on this excellent site have no problems with Valtek injectors yet. They seem of good quality.
I had the same problems as you, rough idle on lpg and economy was down. I used to count on 300 miles to a tank, but now lucky to get 250 or worse. I hope the new injectors will sort this. Time will tell.
:y
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Well, managed to swap out most of the injector assembly. Left the main body or manifold in situ as I did not want to have to drill the new nozzles, and the old ones would not fit in the new manifold.
What a difference all lumpyness at idle has gone and there is hardly any noise from the injectors themselves.
Did an auto-calibration and all was spot on, no map adjustment necessary. See how we go from here.
The old and new internals were identical, so I probably would have got away with a Valtek reconditioning kit :y
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Thanks for the update Shallow Al i'm glad it's given a big improvement. I'm heavily considering purchasing these;
http://autogas-lpg.co.uk/injector-sequential-injection/22-valtek-lpg-injector-rail-sequential-injection-3-cyl.html
For £65 I think it could be worth it for the economy/performance benefits from having new injectors...
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It can't do any harm, but those seem a bit pricey ;) ;)
I reckon you could get better/better value elsewhere :-/
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Thanks for the update Shallow Al i'm glad it's given a big improvement. I'm heavily considering purchasing these;
http://autogas-lpg.co.uk/injector-sequential-injection/22-valtek-lpg-injector-rail-sequential-injection-3-cyl.html
For £65 I think it could be worth it for the economy/performance benefits from having new injectors...
Thats where i got mine. There was only one other set on ebay at the time for around the same price, and could not see much else on google. As said, to make life easy, and to prove a point to myself, I only changed the injector bodies and internals. For my problem it seems to have done the trick and I could well have got away with the Valtek kits that are cheaply available. The economy issue is yet to be proven one way or the other, but the car drives great for now. :y I will be putting the Valtek main body on and drill the nozzles later.
But of course you need six of everything. :-[
The rubber end stop ring is a different colour to the old ones, so just may last longer. :o
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It can't do any harm, but those seem a bit pricey ;) ;)
I reckon you could get better/better value elsewhere :-/
It's the cheapest i've seen, if you've seen them any cheaper feel free to let me know :)
I refitted the injector rails and replaced the vapour filter and they are quieter and cylinder 6 is no longer 'missing' but I think i'm still going to replace the rails. I couldn't find any correctly sized o ring seals so I did a mega bodge involving the old worn seals and some ptfe tape :D I also think i'm leaking gas slightly on the o/s bank so need to sort that.
SA - Good work with yours, sounds like a result :y
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There is one other thing to consider. The solanoids on the LPG systems are prone to failing causing this issue. It might be a simple case of replacing the solanoids on the LPG system to make it work properly again as this can cause bad running eventually leading to lpg failure and with poor running on the car you are ricking the Lambda sensors and catalytic converter.
I had the same problem you are describing on my old 96 V8 Discovery with LPG and I spent months trying everything until at the end a friend of mine said, check the solanoids and it turned out 1 solanoid had failed. Immediately after replacing that solanoid my Disco was back to running perfectly on LPG.
And just to double check. If your LPG is manual switch over like my one was, do you allow your engine to warm up slightly first on petrol before switching over, as I made that mistake never having LPG before which is what caused my problems :o ::)
Hope this helps.
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Car-nut, my LPG should switch over automatically although it seems to be happy to switch over even when it's cold so I do switch over manually once she's warmed up a bit. I know this means my temp. sensor may well be on the pish but i've got bigger fish to fry at the moment!
I've splashed out on some new Valtek type 30's as shown below... mmmm, shiney :)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/tezray/Wots/20110602_001.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/tezray/Wots/20110602_002.jpg)
I will be fitting these asap and seeing how she runs, i'm expecting big improvements. The settings on my ecu are already set as 'Valtek 3 ohm' injectors so I shouldn't have to change a thing, but I will recalibrate.
Fingers crossed 8-)
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Injector rails, filters and new lpg hosing now fitted;
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/tezray/Wots/20110604_005.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/tezray/Wots/20110604_006.jpg)
Whilst I had it apart I found this pikey-style bodge on the temp. sensor ::) Someone has replaced the sensor in the past and they obviously couldn't be bothered to remove the old one so just cut the wires and bodged this one on and left it hanging in mid-air. It doesn't even look like the same sensor as the one screwed into the vapouriser >:(
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/tezray/Wots/20110604_001.jpg)
So now I need to calibrate it all... as I don't have anyone that can sit in the passenger seat to watch the map whilst I drive the car, will I be able to fully calibrate it on my own? I've read the calibration guide written by Kevin in the maintenance guides, by the sounds of it I can collect the petrol map, then the lpg map and compare them afterwards? Do the maps need to be monitored whilst the car is being driven?
I've had it idling and revving on lpg whilst stationary and all seems happy so that's a good sign. There was a light smell of gas in the engine bay with my old injectors and hoses fitted, which to my relief has now disappeared :) If I can get it driving as well on gas as it does on petrol i'll be a happy man.
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The maps will collect by themselves, you don't have to watch them. When it has enough points plotted, it handily draws a line of average value through them. Then switch to gas and do the same. Do an auto calibration before collecting the maps though, this should tune it roughly OK. Then it will prompt you to collect the maps.
Don't like the look of that temp sensor, I think that needs a fix.
What is it supposed to be sensing. Water or gas temperature?
:o
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Cheers SA :y
No it doesn't look great... I had a look on the lpg-autogas website that I got my injectors from and their coolant temp. sensors look the same as the one fitted. I'm fairly sure its the coolant temp. sensor, where is the one for the lpg? Is it just before the vapour filter?
I'll have a go at calibrating it today and report back later ;)
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Tez - the filter is too close to EGR, you may need to do something about that :y
If yours is a Stag 300 plus, update to latest firmware,, which has a automatic calbration (in addition to the idle based one) called ISA2 - enable this, along with the beeps, to get a 'usable' calibration on it. Read the ISA2 part of the PDF to understand how to do it (the ecu asks toy to drive faster/slower in order to collect the maps, and then calibrates itself (not as well as manual calibration, but good enough :y)
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Looks like things have moved on since I last looked at the Stag site. Going to get some of that.
Thanks The Boy.
This forum always puts you straight, if you can say that these days. :y
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Tez - the filter is too close to EGR, you may need to do something about that :y
If yours is a Stag 300 plus, update to latest firmware,, which has a automatic calbration (in addition to the idle based one) called ISA2 - enable this, along with the beeps, to get a 'usable' calibration on it. Read the ISA2 part of the PDF to understand how to do it (the ecu asks toy to drive faster/slower in order to collect the maps, and then calibrates itself (not as well as manual calibration, but good enough :y)
Thanks TB, I think mine is a standard Stag 300 kit. How would I know if it is a plus? The filter is in the same place as when I bought it, will it cause a problem being close to the (blanked off) egr?
Well i've been trying to calibrate today and i'm a bit disappointed with the results tbh. I firstly did the autocalibration and that went fine and it idles/revs up really well. I then erased the petrol map and did a good 12 mile drive to map the new one, all went well. I then erased the lpg map and have been on a 10-12 mile journey (different journey to the petrol map) and it drives ok but the performance isn't really there.
Here's a few screen shots;
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/tezray/Wots/20110605_006.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/tezray/Wots/20110605_007.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/tezray/Wots/20110605_008.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/tezray/Wots/20110605_009.jpg)
On the errors tab, in the 'Warning' section I did have a warning that read something like 'Lambda value low injectors fully open'. I also noticed that the lambda values are low (and identical). Going through the rev range at WOT in first gear gave me lambda values of between 0.3 and 0.38 :(
As both of the lambda values are always identical, I think that one lambda sensor has been wired up to both on the lpg ecu. Could this be halving the actual value from the lambda as it's being split? Do I need to make sure the other lambda is wired in properly?
IMO it seems to be overfuelling.
- My instant mpg is down quite a lot on petrol
-lambda values are always v.low
- I had a warning about the injectors being fully open but still low lambda values
- I lost one of my green bars on my 10 mile journey home!
Any thoughts guys? Apart from the lack of performance though, general driving and idling are 1000 times better than before :y
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That error means it's running lean at WOT... Do not drive it like that or you risk damage :o
[edit]Assuming it's wired correctly ;)[/edit]
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If the injectors are fully open surely it'd be running rich?
It's not fuelling correctly either way, so I guess I need to check the lambda wiring? I don't know what else I can do anyway :(
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Have you drilled out the nozzles on the type 30 injectors? If not, they won't be large enough to deliver enough fuel.
Looking at your screen shots, LPG injectors are at 4.6ms at idle, with 1.2 bar vapour pressure, which suggests the nozzles are too small.
I would drill them out to 2.8 or 3mm and repeat the autocalibration.
Also, note that after collecting the "curves" on LPG and petrol, you need to manually tweak the map (orange line) to bring them together over the whole range of engine load. Just collecting the curves does not in itself change the map.
Do your lambda signals toggle up and down between say 0.2 and 0.8 V at idle and under light load? If so, they are working OK, but you must ensure that the signals are high under full throttle acceleration on LPG.
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Yes i've drilled the nozzles out to 3.0mm. I've tried to tweak the orange line but it wont let me and I don't know what i'm doing wrong... if I select a yellow dot I can move it up using my arrow key but the rather down arrow key on my laptop is broken >:(
I seem to have found a/the problem anyway - the lambda sensor wiring. I found the violet/grey wire on the lpg loom and it wasn't connected into the engine ecu, i've now connected this and under WOT it goes up to around 0.85 - 0.9v.
The other bank of cylinders is still down at 0.3 though and I don't believe it's wired in at all. I just need to track it down now (violet wire on lpg loom) and wire it into pin 28 brown/blue - as so helpfully detailed in one of your guides :y
Would this explain my long injection durations?
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Yes i've drilled the nozzles out to 3.0mm. I've tried to tweak the orange line but it wont let me and I don't know what i'm doing wrong... if I select a yellow dot I can move it up using my arrow key but the rather down arrow key on my laptop is broken >:(
I seem to have found a/the problem anyway - the lambda sensor wiring. I found the violet/grey wire on the lpg loom and it wasn't connected into the engine ecu, i've now connected this and under WOT it goes up to around 0.85 - 0.9v.
The other bank of cylinders is still down at 0.3 though and I don't believe it's wired in at all. I just need to track it down now (violet wire on lpg loom) and wire it into pin 28 brown/blue - as so helpfully detailed in one of your guides :y
Would this explain my long injection durations?
Well... They don't (in theory) need connecting but without connecting them you'll never know if things are running lean at WOT ;) ;)
Once they're connected up, re run the Auto Calibration and see what happens. You do really need to be able to use both the up and down keys on the laptop to get it set up right though ;) ;)
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OK, lambda's now connected and i'm getting some more sensible readings. Here's my attempt from this morning;
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/tezray/Wots/20110606_001.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/tezray/Wots/20110606_002.jpg)
You're right LD, I definately will need a down arrow ::)