Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: albitz on 29 August 2011, 18:51:11
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Anyone got any info on the rates and ride heights for the various different spring types ?
Standard/MV6/Elite.
Seen a fair amount of discussion on here about such things, but dont think Ive ever seen the relevant data.
Elite ride height wont just be governed by the springs, but the others will and all 3 must have a rating figure in pounds ? :-/
I assume MV6 is lower and stiffer than standard and Elite is softer than standard ? :-/
I sometimes see uprated springs advertised, but uprated from what to what ?
Tia. :y
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Albs, what are you trying to achieve?
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Ive got a pair of Bilstein B4,s to go on the rear and want to change the springs as well. Probably dont want to go lower, as I sometimes tow, so that might mean the bumper almost on the ground when towing, which is why I think MV6 springs might not be the best option. Dont want something which is rock hard, but better than standard on the odd occasion when Im towing.
Something a bit uprated from standard might be the way to go, but if you dont know the spring rate of the standard or uprated spring, then its not easy to judge.
Might be best just going with new standard springs, not sure tbh.
I have MOT soon and currently have a broken rear spring, but I should be getting one fromTunnie to see me through the MOT so I dont have to rush into buying whatever eurocarparts happen to have in stock that day.
Then if I move away from standard on the rear, maybe I need to do likewise at the front at the same time ?
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I have a perfectly good pair of springs from the Elite Im breaking (marked LA) which I assume are self levelling type, and therefore assume that they are a lot softer ? :-/
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I had a nice full head of hair until I started looking into Omega rear springs . . .
pulled it all out over the last few months trying to get to the bottom of it all.
One question I still need to sort is . . . Do the rear shocks affect the ride height or not ?
Seem to remember some replies to earlier threads, some months ago, on this subject seemed to think they do.
With a shock off you can slowly push & pull to either extent, so unless i'm missing a vital point it must be the spring that decides the ride height.
Different of course with air shocks as they pump up when rear of car is loaded & let down when load is reduced.
FL MV6 has no air so if shocks are removed for test purposes, will the ride height change? I would say no . . but anyone got a theory as to it would change?
Thinking I've missed a major point here with shocks having an effect on height
No more hair to pull out . so no worries ;D ;D ;D ;D
Any ideas / theories welcome :y :y :y
Can of worms is open . . tin opener is still warm in my hand ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Apologies Albs if i've highjacked your thread :-[ :-[ :-[
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Al - can you pop your rear shocks off and measure ride height before and after. Then take a run around the country lanes at speed and see if any of your hair comes back ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Al - can you pop your rear shocks off and measure ride height before and after. Then take a run around the country lanes at speed and see if any of your hair comes back ;D ;D ;D ;D
Exactly how I lost it ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I have a perfectly good pair of springs from the Elite Im breaking (marked LA) which I assume are self levelling type, and therefore assume that they are a lot softer ? :-/
LA springs are a bit of an oddity. I had them on mine from the previous owner. They sitbtoo high, but are firmer than sl springs.
Softest is Elite suspension, standard(gls, cd, cdx) in the middle, mv6 pre face uses stock springs, but different shocks that are firmer damped but don't hold the car so high. Then there is lowered sports chassis fitted to face lifts only(mv6 and 2.2 sport) shorter springs different shocks again, sits 15 mill lower.
LA's sit way higher than all of those.
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All omega shocks I have seen will extend to full length/top out on their own out of the box. They do affect ride hight as they support the springs as well. How much depends on the shock spec and how much rebound is dialed in.
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I have a perfectly good pair of springs from the Elite Im breaking (marked LA) which I assume are self levelling type, and therefore assume that they are a lot softer ? :-/
LA springs are a bit of an oddity. I had them on mine from the previous owner. They sitbtoo high, but are firmer than sl springs.
Softest is Elite suspension, standard(gls, cd, cdx) in the middle, mv6 pre face uses stock springs, but different shocks that are firmer damped but don't hold the car so high. Then there is lowered sports chassis fitted to face lifts only(mv6 and 2.2 sport) shorter springs different shocks again, sits 15 mill lower.
LA's sit way higher than all of those.
Agreed :y . . had em on mine & sat at 690mm.
Still can't grasp this thing with the shocks though Chris :-[ :-[
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Any idea if LA springs are softer then standard springs, and if so by how much ? :-/
In the old days springs used to be identified by rates such as 150lb etc. but that doesnt seem to happen any more, which is a bit confusing imo. :-/
Both elites I have had for breaking have had LA springs which is what made me think they are standard elite fitment.
Wonder how it would sit with MV6 springs and standard shocks on the back.If the front was left as is would it look silly and drive strangely ?
So many permutations,suspension is confusing stuff. ::)
My breaker has the LA springs and B4 shocks on at the moment, so I might have a measure up and then compare it with my standard setup to see how much difference there is.
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Albs, I replaced my LA springs with an almost new unmarked set from another Oof member.
These were 40mm shorter & when fitted dropped the rear by 30mm with a much firmer ride.
But not much help as we don't really know what they are :-[ :-[ :-[
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I have a perfectly good pair of springs from the Elite Im breaking (marked LA) which I assume are self levelling type, and therefore assume that they are a lot softer ? :-/
LA springs are a bit of an oddity. I had them on mine from the previous owner. They sitbtoo high, but are firmer than sl springs.
Softest is Elite suspension, standard(gls, cd, cdx) in the middle, mv6 pre face uses stock springs, but different shocks that are firmer damped but don't hold the car so high. Then there is lowered sports chassis fitted to face lifts only(mv6 and 2.2 sport) shorter springs different shocks again, sits 15 mill lower.
LA's sit way higher than all of those.
Agreed :y . . had em on mine & sat at 690mm.
Still can't grasp this thing with the shocks though Chris :-[ :-[
Well, taking pre face lift mv6, springs are the same as standard gls, cd, cdx. But the car apparently sits lower. So only difference is shocks, which do not extend at the same rate as standard shocks.....by extend I mean, with a shock in your hand, compress it fully so it bottoms out then let go. It will fully extend on it's own. Pre face lift mv6 will extend at a slower less forcefull rate than standard shocks. Hence the car sits lower.... Or that's the general idea.
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I had a set of standard springs on my Tourer estate and I was in danger of losing the exhaust.
I eventually got a set of Heavy Duty Springs and the car is sitting normally.
I checked the Shocks, they gave resistance in both directions so left them alone.
I thought all shock absorbers do is what the name says. Absorb shocks :y
They may offer a little assistance to the springs but as to helping hold the weight of the car then they couldn't do this otherwise you would not be able to compress them.
As for air shocks, these I don't know about.....
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I had a set of standard springs on my Tourer estate and I was in danger of losing the exhaust.
I eventually got a set of Heavy Duty Springs and the car is sitting normally.
I checked the Shocks, they gave resistance in both directions so left them alone.
I thought all shock absorbers do is what the name says. Absorb shocks :y
They may offer a little assistance to the springs but as to helping hold the weight of the car then they couldn't do this otherwise you would not be able to compress them.
As for air shocks, these I don't know about.....
Not sure whats fitted to the tourer tbh, but I would expect the shocks to extend under their own power, or suspect they need replacing...? Ok the ride hight is better, but is the hight correct? Does the car bounce excessively when you compress it, by bouncing on the boot lip for instance...?
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I have a perfectly good pair of springs from the Elite Im breaking (marked LA) which I assume are self levelling type, and therefore assume that they are a lot softer ? :-/
LA springs are a bit of an oddity. I had them on mine from the previous owner. They sitbtoo high, but are firmer than sl springs.
Softest is Elite suspension, standard(gls, cd, cdx) in the middle, mv6 pre face uses stock springs, but different shocks that are firmer damped but don't hold the car so high. Then there is lowered sports chassis fitted to face lifts only(mv6 and 2.2 sport) shorter springs different shocks again, sits 15 mill lower.
LA's sit way higher than all of those.
Agreed :y . . had em on mine & sat at 690mm.
Still can't grasp this thing with the shocks though Chris :-[ :-[
Well, taking pre face lift mv6, springs are the same as standard gls, cd, cdx. But the car apparently sits lower. So only difference is shocks, which do not extend at the same rate as standard shocks.....by extend I mean, with a shock in your hand, compress it fully so it bottoms out then let go. It will fully extend on it's own. Pre face lift mv6 will extend at a slower less forcefull rate than standard shocks. Hence the car sits lower.... Or that's the general idea.
So tell me if I have got this right Chris, if you take the shocks off of a pre facelift MV6 it will sit higher than with them on ? :-/ :-/
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See the vid
http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/30337ea4.mp4
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See the vid
http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p326/chrisgixer/30337ea4.mp4
thanks :y :y
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fitted Boge springs and standard GM shocks to mine, does appear to sit lower than before :-/
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Anyone got any info on the rates and ride heights for the various different spring types ?
Standard/MV6/Elite.
Seen a fair amount of discussion on here about such things, but dont think Ive ever seen the relevant data.
Elite ride height wont just be governed by the springs, but the others will and all 3 must have a rating figure in pounds ? :-/
I assume MV6 is lower and stiffer than standard and Elite is softer than standard ? :-/
I sometimes see uprated springs advertised, but uprated from what to what ?
Tia. :y
Anyone able to answer the pertinent questions that Albs has posed :-?
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fitted Boge springs and standard GM shocks to mine, does appear to sit lower than before :-/
Did the old shocks still extend when compressed?
-
Anyone got any info on the rates and ride heights for the various different spring types ?
Standard/MV6/Elite.
Seen a fair amount of discussion on here about such things, but dont think Ive ever seen the relevant data.
Elite ride height wont just be governed by the springs, but the others will and all 3 must have a rating figure in pounds ? :-/
I assume MV6 is lower and stiffer than standard and Elite is softer than standard ? :-/
I sometimes see uprated springs advertised, but uprated from what to what ?
Tia. :y
Anyone able to answer the pertinent questions that Albs has posed :-?
No idea on the maths for spring rates. 2woody will most likely know.
"Uprated springs" is usually just a phrase planted in adverts for Chavs thinking they must be better, purely because they are different or firmer ime.
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I was led to believe there were only a few different springs for the Omega.
ie - Estate Standard
- Estate Heavy Duty
- Saloon
- MV6
and I think a different spring for the Face lift....
But then you have the Springs for dropping the body and customising the car.
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Plus - Elite springs fitted to self levelling setup,plus LA springs which seem to be often found on elites, but no-one seems to know what they are. ;)
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I had a set of standard springs on my Tourer estate and I was in danger of losing the exhaust.
I eventually got a set of Heavy Duty Springs and the car is sitting normally.
I checked the Shocks, they gave resistance in both directions so left them alone.
I thought all shock absorbers do is what the name says. Absorb shocks :y
They may offer a little assistance to the springs but as to helping hold the weight of the car then they couldn't do this otherwise you would not be able to compress them.
As for air shocks, these I don't know about.....
Not sure whats fitted to the tourer tbh, but I would expect the shocks to extend under their own power, or suspect they need replacing...? Ok the ride hight is better, but is the hight correct? Does the car bounce excessively when you compress it, by bouncing on the boot lip for instance...?
I'll get you to have a look at Newent Chris, and see what you think. Personally I'm very happy with it. There was no way I could leave the other springs on it. I will bring them with me and see what you reckon. I feel I was supplied wrong even though they assure me they are correct.
The only difference with the Heavy Duty Springs is the thickness of the coil. The height of the spring is the same.
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fitted Boge springs and standard GM shocks to mine, does appear to sit lower than before :-/
Did the old shocks still extend when compressed?
No. They were totally fubared!
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Plus - Elite springs fitted to self levelling setup,plus LA springs which seem to be often found on elites, but no-one seems to know what they are. ;)
LA springs are not listed on epc for omega.
Believed to be Carlton. Which may be similar, but is not the same.
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fitted Boge springs and standard GM shocks to mine, does appear to sit lower than before :-/
Did the old shocks still extend when compressed?
No. They were totally fubared!
What does it measure from floor to wheel arch. (trying to remember, should it be 675mm?)
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Anyone got any info on the rates and ride heights for the various different spring types ?
Standard/MV6/Elite.
Seen a fair amount of discussion on here about such things, but dont think Ive ever seen the relevant data.
Elite ride height wont just be governed by the springs, but the others will and all 3 must have a rating figure in pounds ? :-/
I assume MV6 is lower and stiffer than standard and Elite is softer than standard ? :-/
I sometimes see uprated springs advertised, but uprated from what to what ?
Tia. :y
Anyone able to answer the pertinent questions that Albs has posed :-?
Can't think where that info would be available from . . it never surfaced several months ago when I was trying to get to the bottom of exactly what LA springs were. But must be available from somewhere :-/ :-/ :-/
Aplogies again to Albs regarding this thread going a bit off track, but this rear end subject is a bit of a minefield IMO
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it would be great if we could put together a table of the spring rates & ride heights, but I fear it's going to be impossible because of two things :-
springs age. So, person "A" with a new set of MV6 springs might well report a higher ride height than person "B" with high-mileage Elite springs, and
there's a lot of "stiction" in the system. So if you removed and refitted a pair of springs, you';re very likely to get a different answer when you put them back on.
As an example, the highest-riding car I have is fitted with the supposedly lower MV6 chassis ( LU rear springs, etc. )
Spring rates, if we collate a table, must come from the manufacturer
Yes, dampers are usually sprung-loaded, BUT the spring force is way smaller than the force provided by the road spring, so can be discounted from any calculations.
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Anyone got any info on the rates and ride heights for the various different spring types ?
Standard/MV6/Elite.
Seen a fair amount of discussion on here about such things, but dont think Ive ever seen the relevant data.
Elite ride height wont just be governed by the springs, but the others will and all 3 must have a rating figure in pounds ? :-/
I assume MV6 is lower and stiffer than standard and Elite is softer than standard ? :-/
I sometimes see uprated springs advertised, but uprated from what to what ?
Tia. :y
Anyone able to answer the pertinent questions that Albs has posed :-?
Can't think where that info would be available from . . it never surfaced several months ago when I was trying to get to the bottom of exactly what LA springs were. But must be available from somewhere :-/ :-/ :-/
Aplogies again to Albs regarding this thread going a bit off track, but this rear end subject is a bit of a minefield IMO
It's not just the rears, LA are fitted all round, the front sits too high as well. By over an inch!
2woody shocks support the springs and have an affect, it's why lifting a lowered car by hand by the wheel arch to get a jack under is comparatively easy. If it had no springs that would be impossible.
I am sure if that shock was placed under a sprung car, like bottle jack, it would lift the chassis a small amount, and if placed under a car with no springs it wouldn't. Therefor the spring and shock combination is important.
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shock pre-load spring = about 2% of roadspring rate
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Juist done a bit of measuring.The elite with LA springs on the rear is 695mm from floor to wheelarch. My car (with broken spring) is 710mm n/s,and 655mm o/s. ::) ;D
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Some pics in here show an LA sprung car, guess which one. (no cheating by those that know my car ;D )
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1295018111/120
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I hadn't realised how much of a difference the LA springs make :o :o
I won't give it away but I could spot it even if I hadn't known it was your car ;) ;)
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RobG,s elite breaker also had LA springs fitted. It would seem that at least some elites came out of the factory with them fitted for whatever reason. :-/
Perhaps they found a container full of them and wanted to use them up. ;D
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Some pics in here show an LA sprung car, guess which one. (no cheating by those that know my car ;D )
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1295018111/120
It's this one, isn't it?
(http://www.antiquetractorsrus.com/projectimages/johndeere/jdhighcrop4020/jd4020a.jpg)
;D
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Would plod spec springs help Albs to achieve his aim?