Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: family guy on 10 September 2011, 22:53:45
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as above, is there a easy way to tell if the wishbones need replacing? reason being is that the camber is massively out on the front o/s eheel on my omega 2.5 cdx and im hoping it just needs realigning. ive got the car booked in at WIM in 2 weeks and i dont want to get there and be told that the wishbone needs changing before steering geometry can be set up......
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when the bushes (original) are finished they will leak oil..
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Move the car forward a wee bit then slam on, if a friend watches the front wheel and it moves backwards in the arch when you do this it's a decent indicator that the bush is shot. Thats what wheels in motion did with mine anyway.
You can also jack it up and give the bush a wiggle with a pry bar to see if there is movement. I thought mine were ok but had to have them replaced by WIM, total bill of £300. Would have been cheaper and more sensible to have thrown some cheap wishbones on prior to going there, sounds like that may be the best option yourself mate.
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you should be able to feel a judder over speedhumps or sudden braking. (pretty noticable with fully worned out wishbone bushes)
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Thought I might have to replace mine this year, but they didnt fail the MOT so they are obviously in perfect condition. ;) ;D
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Put your foot on top of the wheel, under the arch if there's room. Then push the wheel back, then forward. Or for and aft. It should be farely solid. If it slops about by more than,say,10mill either way the bushes are fubar. Similar test as described earlier by watching the wheels under braking, or bumping up a small down in the kerb, such as an entrance to a drive way. If the wheel moves backwards as it hits the bump, of say an inch high, fubar bushes.
Levering with a bar, should feel very solid, but there is movement as that's how they work to a point. Any sign of cracks or splits in either bush, ESP the front when levered to toe out and shining a torch in to the black rubber itself, replace.
If the rearward vertical bush is ok, fit Polly to the front. No need to remove the wishbone, fit Polly in situ.
Hth
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ok.. the bushes are there for a reason..
to play forward and backward.. ;D
determining the exact point when they give up is not that easy.. they will give some negative feedback in steering and this will increase in time.. but the last nail on coffin is they start to loose oil..
and if you start to be suspicious about them on every steering play you have to change frequently :P :D
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my mechanicaL knowlege in non-exsistant so i dont have a clue but thanks for the advice anyway people. its just past a mot so it they should be ok? i dont think there is play in the bush, the wheel feels solid so i think its ok.
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It depends, mine are totally shot & under heavy braking the car wonders about. If they are like jelly it could be failed.
I've just asked WIM if they are able to fit Bushes on site, as I plan to fit a pair of "poly" bushes which make the front end a lot stiffer.
I'll let you know what they say :y
Do you have any DIY car tools? Jack? Big crowbar? If you can, jack the car up, or park it on a pavement, underneath the car where the wishbone meets the chassis, put big screw driver/crowbar in there, wiggle it, see how much the bush/wishbone moves, there should only be a slight movement.
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Pruned of unwelcoming negativity.
Please keep on topic, and play nicely.
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my mechanicaL knowlege in non-exsistant so i dont have a clue but thanks for the advice anyway people. its just past a mot so it they should be ok? i dont think there is play in the bush, the wheel feels solid so i think its ok.
Assuming you are pushing the wheel side to side and up down externally, that does not really test the bush, thats looking for play in the steering idler arm & track rod ends.
Good news if there is no movement, then they are fine! :)
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ok guys- update.
just had alook through the old mot cetificates (only bought the car 4 days ago) and last year (oct 2010) it failed for having an imcomplete offside coil spring and also
'nearside front lower suspension arm rubber bush deteriated resulting in excessive movement'
looking through the reciepts the coil has been replced and the arm was also replaced.
aloso looking through the reciepts (mountains of reciepts came with the car) in june thuis year the car had a new lower arm (dosent say which side but presumebly it must have been the o/s if the n/s was done last year?)
2 days after the mot failure last year it passed so im thinking, also bearing in mind that another arm was replaced this year, and this is just a hunch, that they have changed the arms and springs and not done the camber afterwards? there is a receiept for tracking done in june this year but as ive read on this forum, that does nowt on a omega.
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What bushes do we fit and where do we get them from?
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What bushes do we fit and where do we get them from?
this may give some idea or you may use originals
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1314470404
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....looking through the reciepts the coil has been repalced and the arm was also replaced....
Hopefully BOTH springs were changed ;)
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It depends, mine are totally shot & under heavy braking the car wonders about. If they are like jelly it could be failed.
I've just asked WIM if they are able to fit Bushes on site, as I plan to fit a pair of "poly" bushes which make the front end a lot stiffer.
I'll let you know what they say :y
Do you have any DIY car tools? Jack? Big crowbar? If you can, jack the car up, or park it on a pavement, underneath the car where the wishbone meets the chassis, put big screw driver/crowbar in there, wiggle it, see how much the bush/wishbone moves, there should only be a slight movement.
This is the route I'm taking although I've got to re-bush the wishbone subframe bushes as well due to splitting. I'm using GM bushes for rear wishbone bushes and 'hopefully' press them in to my existing wishbones using a 20 ton snap-on press. Fingers crossed. :-/
I believe Chrisgixer raised the question of WIM doing poly's in the WIM forum. They said time can outweigh cost but still be interesting to see their reply. :y :y
Regards
Alan
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This is the route I'm taking although I've got to re-bush the wishbone subframe bushes as well due to splitting. I'm using GM bushes for rear wishbone bushes and 'hopefully' press them in to my existing wishbones using a 20 ton snap-on press. Fingers crossed. :-/
I did mine in a cheap 10 ton press with no issues whatsoever. As usual with a press, it was harder finding some spacers and holding the assembly together whilst pumping the handle.
If you use a large enough tool, you might be able to press the front bushes out, rather than use butchery.
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This is the route I'm taking although I've got to re-bush the wishbone subframe bushes as well due to splitting. I'm using GM bushes for rear wishbone bushes and 'hopefully' press them in to my existing wishbones using a 20 ton snap-on press. Fingers crossed. :-/
I did mine in a cheap 10 ton press with no issues whatsoever. As usual with a press, it was harder finding some spacers and holding the assembly together whilst pumping the handle.
If you use a large enough tool, you might be able to press the front bushes out, rather than use butchery.
Good to hear that. :y Chose this route after some varying reports on Lemforder and it's a cheaper option than GM's £228 + vat each if all goes well.
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I'm on a poor connection, so haven't read the complete thread.
But, if your rearward vertical bush is fine, then there is no need to remove the wishbone to fit polly. They are only available for the front horizontal bush anyway. Last I heard.
Given that you won't get a press under the car, undo the bolt, pull wb down, cut out bush, push new polly in, do the bolt back up wheels in air, job done!
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ok guys- update.
just had alook through the old mot cetificates (only bought the car 4 days ago) and last year (oct 2010) it failed for having an imcomplete offside coil spring and also
'nearside front lower suspension arm rubber bush deteriated resulting in excessive movement'
looking through the reciepts the coil has been replced and the arm was also replaced.
aloso looking through the reciepts (mountains of reciepts came with the car) in june thuis year the car had a new lower arm (dosent say which side but presumebly it must have been the o/s if the n/s was done last year?)
2 days after the mot failure last year it passed so im thinking, also bearing in mind that another arm was replaced this year, and this is just a hunch, that they have changed the arms and springs and not done the camber afterwards? there is a receiept for tracking done in june this year but as ive read on this forum, that does nowt on a omega.
As an Omega owner you will soon become familiar with the practice of building a big mountain of receipts.
Just make sure you join Autobahn Stormers to get your trade club discount card.
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Are these any good???
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/230666065781?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_5472wt_1139
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I'm on a poor connection, so haven't read the complete thread.
But, if your rearward vertical bush is fine, then there is no need to remove the wishbone to fit polly. They are only available for the front horizontal bush anyway. Last I heard.
Given that you won't get a press under the car, undo the bolt, pull wb down, cut out bush, push new polly in, do the bolt back up wheels in air, job done!
Considering what a pain in the arse it is to 'cut out bush', and that removing the wishbone is just two more bolts, I'd remove it and operate on the bush in comfort, with the wishbone firmly clamped in the vice.
Why make things more difficult than is necessary?
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I'm on a poor connection, so haven't read the complete thread.
But, if your rearward vertical bush is fine, then there is no need to remove the wishbone to fit polly. They are only available for the front horizontal bush anyway. Last I heard.
Given that you won't get a press under the car, undo the bolt, pull wb down, cut out bush, push new polly in, do the bolt back up wheels in air, job done!
Considering what a pain in the arse it is to 'cut out bush', and that removing the wishbone is just two more bolts, I'd remove it and operate on the bush in comfort, with the wishbone firmly clamped in the vice.
Why make things more difficult than is necessary?
its easy under the car tbh, and you dont mess up the geometry with just 1 bolt, assuming ok to start with :y
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I'm on a poor connection, so haven't read the complete thread.
But, if your rearward vertical bush is fine, then there is no need to remove the wishbone to fit polly. They are only available for the front horizontal bush anyway. Last I heard.
Given that you won't get a press under the car, undo the bolt, pull wb down, cut out bush, push new polly in, do the bolt back up wheels in air, job done!
Considering what a pain in the arse it is to 'cut out bush', and that removing the wishbone is just two more bolts, I'd remove it and operate on the bush in comfort, with the wishbone firmly clamped in the vice.
Why make things more difficult than is necessary?
Geometry preserved as much as possible... And trust me,if it was as simple as "just two more bolts" then I would agree fully.... It isn't.
Leave the wishbone on the car! Hole cutter and chop saw being weapons of choice. Or whatever you have to hand.
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I'm on a poor connection, so haven't read the complete thread.
But, if your rearward vertical bush is fine, then there is no need to remove the wishbone to fit polly. They are only available for the front horizontal bush anyway. Last I heard.
Given that you won't get a press under the car, undo the bolt, pull wb down, cut out bush, push new polly in, do the bolt back up wheels in air, job done!
Considering what a pain in the arse it is to 'cut out bush', and that removing the wishbone is just two more bolts, I'd remove it and operate on the bush in comfort, with the wishbone firmly clamped in the vice.
Why make things more difficult than is necessary?
Geometry preserved as much as possible... And trust me,if it was as simple as "just two more bolts" then I would agree fully.... It isn't.
Leave the wishbone on the car! Hole cutter and chop saw being weapons of choice. Or whatever you have to hand.
... And clearly, you've never tried to press a front bush out. Think it through carefully. The angle of the wishbone itself so close to the projected line it has to come out, means a very wide press is needed to get on it,and that's if you can find something to support the circumference of the outside void, which you won't because the wishbone itself is in the way. You'll end up cutting it out anyway.
Although having the correct drifts to hand will help. But there's only one person I know who has those.
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Chris,
It's probably my fault that this thread has gone slightly off track. I responded to Tunnie's reply by stating that I was fitting poly's while my wishbones are off due to the REAR bush being shot. I will be pressing new GM rear bushes in and will CUT out the front bush while they are off and fit poly's. The company I work for has ample equipment for this job. :y
I realise that you came in halfway through the thread but I had already stated that my REAR bushes need replacing so the wishbones are coming off anyway to which Nick W replied. As poly's were mentioned, the thread has got side tracked in that direction.
No offence intended in this reply. On the contrary actually, I was hoping to discuss options with you at the next convenient meet if that's OK. Hope that clears up why the thread went off course. :y
Regards
Alan
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I'm not a mechanic.. but an engineer..
and while you are forcing/cutting the bushes what guarantees that you dont damage/harm other parts around.. there is one proper way (except butchery), you have to use a hydraulic press for both in and out operations..
besides, who guarantees that the bush pressed inside is fit properly and wont flip out under some urgent brake conditions..
I can understand the reasons why its done like that but seriously those wishbones never cost that much to produce .. and its they guilt they force people for back roads.. >:(
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As Allan says the rear bush is also shot(sorry,should have re read before my last posts now I have wifi connection) then yes the wb has to come off, obviously.
It is far easier to press a front oe bush in, than press an old one out ime. And easier still to cut the old one out. Weather on the car or off it. Cutting the outer metal ring of the old bush is the critical part, and obviously stopping short of cutting the wishbone is key. Cut as deap as you dare then chisel and hammer to force the bush outer in on itself while tearing the remainder of the hack saw cut.
There is a perfectly clear guide posted by razzo if you care to look...? :-?
AA had his pollys fitted in a field at Newent in about an hour. It's not difficult or dangerous in any way...(wtf? :-? ) although cutting by hand with a hack saw is extremely tedious, granted.
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As Allan says the rear bush is also shot(sorry,should have re read before my last posts now I have wifi connection) then yes the wb has to come off, obviously.
It is far easier to press a front oe bush in, than press an old one out ime. And easier still to cut the old one out. Weather on the car or off it. Cutting the outer metal ring of the old bush is the critical part, and obviously stopping short of cutting the wishbone is key. Cut as deap as you dare then chisel and hammer to force the bush outer in on itself while tearing the remainder of the hack saw cut.
There is a perfectly clear guide posted by razzo if you care to look...? :-?
AA had his pollys fitted in a field at Newent in about an hour. It's not difficult or dangerous in any way...(wtf? :-? ) although cutting by hand with a hack saw is extremely tedious, granted.
Chris, you can do as you wish, but I dont think a garage who works like that can take a quality certificate ;D
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As Allan says the rear bush is also shot(sorry,should have re read before my last posts now I have wifi connection) then yes the wb has to come off, obviously.
It is far easier to press a front oe bush in, than press an old one out ime. And easier still to cut the old one out. Weather on the car or off it. Cutting the outer metal ring of the old bush is the critical part, and obviously stopping short of cutting the wishbone is key. Cut as deap as you dare then chisel and hammer to force the bush outer in on itself while tearing the remainder of the hack saw cut.
There is a perfectly clear guide posted by razzo if you care to look...? :-?
AA had his pollys fitted in a field at Newent in about an hour. It's not difficult or dangerous in any way...(wtf? :-? ) although cutting by hand with a hack saw is extremely tedious, granted.
Chris, you can do as you wish, but I dont think a garage who works like that can take a quality certificate ;D
Why not? So they can charge 4 times as long ? >:(
It is the recommended way, ask master. And when you "press out" a front bush please post a video. I will be most interested in your first attempt ;D
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Here is the guide. Although this wb has been removed. Easy to do under the car, and much quicker with the appropriate tools.
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1301673484
I do wonder why we bother with a guide section and recommended methods on OOF when even prominent members can't be bothered to read them!
Polly bushes come in two halfs that just push in. Simples!
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As Allan says the rear bush is also shot(sorry,should have re read before my last posts now I have wifi connection) then yes the wb has to come off, obviously.
It is far easier to press a front oe bush in, than press an old one out ime. And easier still to cut the old one out. Weather on the car or off it. Cutting the outer metal ring of the old bush is the critical part, and obviously stopping short of cutting the wishbone is key. Cut as deap as you dare then chisel and hammer to force the bush outer in on itself while tearing the remainder of the hack saw cut.
There is a perfectly clear guide posted by razzo if you care to look...? :-?
AA had his pollys fitted in a field at Newent in about an hour. It's not difficult or dangerous in any way...(wtf? :-? ) although cutting by hand with a hack saw is extremely tedious, granted.
Your clearly volunteering to fit some poly bushes to a certain 3.2 thats in my garage aren't you? :D ;D ;D
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As Allan says the rear bush is also shot(sorry,should have re read before my last posts now I have wifi connection) then yes the wb has to come off, obviously.
It is far easier to press a front oe bush in, than press an old one out ime. And easier still to cut the old one out. Weather on the car or off it. Cutting the outer metal ring of the old bush is the critical part, and obviously stopping short of cutting the wishbone is key. Cut as deap as you dare then chisel and hammer to force the bush outer in on itself while tearing the remainder of the hack saw cut.
There is a perfectly clear guide posted by razzo if you care to look...? :-?
AA had his pollys fitted in a field at Newent in about an hour. It's not difficult or dangerous in any way...(wtf? :-? ) although cutting by hand with a hack saw is extremely tedious, granted.
Your clearly volunteering to fit some poly bushes to a certain 3.2 thats in my garage aren't you? :D ;D ;D
Hang on, he's got to come and do mine practice on mine, first.. ;D
Not that he knows that yet..
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As Allan says the rear bush is also shot(sorry,should have re read before my last posts now I have wifi connection) then yes the wb has to come off, obviously.
It is far easier to press a front oe bush in, than press an old one out ime. And easier still to cut the old one out. Weather on the car or off it. Cutting the outer metal ring of the old bush is the critical part, and obviously stopping short of cutting the wishbone is key. Cut as deap as you dare then chisel and hammer to force the bush outer in on itself while tearing the remainder of the hack saw cut.
There is a perfectly clear guide posted by razzo if you care to look...? :-?
AA had his pollys fitted in a field at Newent in about an hour. It's not difficult or dangerous in any way...(wtf? :-? ) although cutting by hand with a hack saw is extremely tedious, granted.
Chris, you can do as you wish, but I dont think a garage who works like that can take a quality certificate ;D
Why not? So they can charge 4 times as long ? >:(
It is the recommended way, ask master. And when you "press out" a front bush please post a video. I will be most interested in your first attempt ;D
years ago when I first replaced the front bushes only (it was boge) it didnt go longer than few months.. changed another time.. second set lasted a bit longer.. all changes done on a big hydraulic press, so it was easy.. however as they didnt last well , I bite the bullet pay the money and buy original GM which last more than 50K (kms).. after that , I give up to pay this money and buy wishbones thats produced in my country which was 1/3 of that price (original GM 380 £ approx) .. its been a year and no problems so far..but I'll try those poly bushes also.. :y
ps: I dont think those wishbones will be safe if bushes changed even with a hyd .press more than a couple of times.. :-/
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As Allan says the rear bush is also shot(sorry,should have re read before my last posts now I have wifi connection) then yes the wb has to come off, obviously.
It is far easier to press a front oe bush in, than press an old one out ime. And easier still to cut the old one out. Weather on the car or off it. Cutting the outer metal ring of the old bush is the critical part, and obviously stopping short of cutting the wishbone is key. Cut as deap as you dare then chisel and hammer to force the bush outer in on itself while tearing the remainder of the hack saw cut.
There is a perfectly clear guide posted by razzo if you care to look...? :-?
AA had his pollys fitted in a field at Newent in about an hour. It's not difficult or dangerous in any way...(wtf? :-? ) although cutting by hand with a hack saw is extremely tedious, granted.
Chris, you can do as you wish, but I dont think a garage who works like that can take a quality certificate ;D
Why not? So they can charge 4 times as long ? >:(
It is the recommended way, ask master. And when you "press out" a front bush please post a video. I will be most interested in your first attempt ;D
years ago when I first replaced the front bushes only (it was boge) it didnt go longer than few months.. changed another time.. second set lasted a bit longer.. all changes done on a big hydraulic press, so it was easy.. however as they didnt last well , I bite the bullet pay the money and buy original GM which last more than 50K (kms).. after that , I give up to pay this money and buy wishbones thats produced in my country which was 1/3 of that price (original GM 380 £ approx) .. its been a year and no problems so far..but I'll try those poly bushes also.. :y
Sounds like the pattern bushes you got cem just did not last long? :-/
Bit like pattern cam cover gaskets? :-/
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As Allan says the rear bush is also shot(sorry,should have re read before my last posts now I have wifi connection) then yes the wb has to come off, obviously.
It is far easier to press a front oe bush in, than press an old one out ime. And easier still to cut the old one out. Weather on the car or off it. Cutting the outer metal ring of the old bush is the critical part, and obviously stopping short of cutting the wishbone is key. Cut as deap as you dare then chisel and hammer to force the bush outer in on itself while tearing the remainder of the hack saw cut.
There is a perfectly clear guide posted by razzo if you care to look...? :-?
AA had his pollys fitted in a field at Newent in about an hour. It's not difficult or dangerous in any way...(wtf? :-? ) although cutting by hand with a hack saw is extremely tedious, granted.
Your clearly volunteering to fit some poly bushes to a certain 3.2 thats in my garage aren't you? :D ;D ;D
Hang on, he's got to come and do mine practice on mine, first.. ;D
Not that he knows that yet..
;D ;D ;D
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As Allan says the rear bush is also shot(sorry,should have re read before my last posts now I have wifi connection) then yes the wb has to come off, obviously.
It is far easier to press a front oe bush in, than press an old one out ime. And easier still to cut the old one out. Weather on the car or off it. Cutting the outer metal ring of the old bush is the critical part, and obviously stopping short of cutting the wishbone is key. Cut as deap as you dare then chisel and hammer to force the bush outer in on itself while tearing the remainder of the hack saw cut.
There is a perfectly clear guide posted by razzo if you care to look...? :-?
AA had his pollys fitted in a field at Newent in about an hour. It's not difficult or dangerous in any way...(wtf? :-? ) although cutting by hand with a hack saw is extremely tedious, granted.
Chris, you can do as you wish, but I dont think a garage who works like that can take a quality certificate ;D
Why not? So they can charge 4 times as long ? >:(
It is the recommended way, ask master. And when you "press out" a front bush please post a video. I will be most interested in your first attempt ;D
years ago when I first replaced the front bushes only (it was boge) it didnt go longer than few months.. changed another time.. second set lasted a bit longer.. all changes done on a big hydraulic press, so it was easy.. however as they didnt last well , I bite the bullet pay the money and buy original GM which last more than 50K (kms).. after that , I give up to pay this money and buy wishbones thats produced in my country which was 1/3 of that price (original GM 380 £ approx) .. its been a year and no problems so far..but I'll try those poly bushes also.. :y
Sounds like the pattern bushes you got cem just did not last long? :-/
Bit like pattern cam cover gaskets? :-/
even if it lasts for a year or more.. no probs.. I can buy another.. anyway hourly labor is cheap here and I wont pay any labor also ;D
because I repair their pcs for free >:(
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Where the wheels hanging when bolts tightened? Ie car in the air?