Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Cliffo B on 27 August 2011, 23:22:47
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anybody know what the min to max air pressure the rear self leveling shocks operate at on my elite estate?
I need to know as I am going to install pump up air bags into each rear spring to hopefully upgrade the 70 Kg GM noseweight spec and help assist with the extra weight from the lpg tank in the spare wheel well
These air bags I had fitted to my previous MV6 estate and they worked very well
they operated similar to the Monroe ride leveler shocks but allowed the suspension to work with the standard MV6 shocks.
I'm hopeing it will work effectively if I Tee in an air supply for the air bags from the existing GM self leveling airline,as apposed to useing the stand alone pump up system I built for the MV6
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do you do a lot of towing? I have just left the rear suspension of mine standard & I have a 90L tank in the back of mine. Not had any issues :)
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anybody know what the min to max air pressure the rear self leveling shocks operate at on my elite estate?
I need to know as I am going to install pump up air bags into each rear spring to hopefully upgrade the 70 Kg GM noseweight spec and help assist with the extra weight from the lpg tank in the spare wheel well
These air bags I had fitted to my previous MV6 estate and they worked very well,they operated similar to the Monroe ride leveler shocks but allowed the suspension to work with the standard MV6 shocks.I'm hopeing it will work effectively if I Tee in an air supply for the air bags from the existing GM self leveling airline,as apposed to useing the stand alone pump up system I built for the MV6
its all very well pumping up the back of the car but the towbar and its mounting points were designed for the same weight limit,what are you going to do to them :-?
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yes I'm retired and do a fair amount of towing, my towbar is an Alco Kober and I think it has a 100Kg spec,I'm towing with the standard self leveling suspension and no problems or issues, in fact miggy's a super tower never a twitch, just think the air bags worked so well it could help the self leveling shocks and springs to bear the extra load, mainly of the lpg tank when full, and my wifes disability buggy, as to the tow bar fixing points, my caravan when in touring mode has a n/weight of 80Kg, I did check the fixing points when I fitted the lpg tank and the torque settings were as when fitted
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yes I'm retired and do a fair amount of towing, my towbar is an Alco Kober and I think it has a 100Kg spec,I'm towing with the standard self leveling suspension and no problems or issues, in fact miggy's a super tower never a twitch, just think the air bags worked so well it could help the self leveling shocks and springs to bear the extra load, mainly of the lpg tank when full, and my wifes disability buggy, as to the tow bar fixing points, my caravan when in touring mode has a n/weight of 80Kg, I did check the fixing points when I fitted the lpg tank and the torque settings were as when fitted
The way I see it, the air bags will give the sl shocks an easier time, but that's all. Wouldnt nose weight increase have the effect of lifting the cars front wheels off the floor, as will the LPG tank although less so for it's given weight as it's nearer the rear axle than the toe bar(but not directly above it like the saloon).
Because on an estate the LPG tank is much further behind the centre line of the rear axle than a saloon, I would have thought the max towing nose weight should be reduced.
We have an LPG tank in the load area PLUS the usual load capacity as well. Then adding to the exiting nose weight on the tow bar. There will be less weight on the front steering wheels as a result. Think see saw.... No?
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that's correct would think that the front end would lighten up but this is not so I think due to the self leveling of the rear suspension,as Ive already said miggy's a dream towcar its just that I want to reduce towing stresses as much as possible the rear shocks are fairly new if one went when towing?
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It's the damping that usually fails on sl shocks. If anything fitting firmer springs would be a better upgrade all round. Less wallowing, better handling while not towing, and less sag when hooked up with better support should sl fail.
Stock springs are known to work with sl.
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My saloon was better with good quality standard springs and the s/l shocks :y
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the reason I started to use the airbags on my MV6 was to tow the caravan,
I originally fitted it with Monroe ride levellers and was disapointed that in doing this the car was no longer an MV6 to drive.
I'd lost the the car I loved!!
When driven hard whatever I did with the Monroes they were obviously unable to perform in the same way as the MV6 shocks.
What was needed was a method of assisting the rear springs to cope with the extra load in towing mode and be able to return to MV6 mode.
Back in my Cavalier Mk 2 Estate days I used a product called Auto Ballans which were inflateable balls that were fitted inside the springs to help to cope with extra load.
On enquiry to find if they were still made I found out that inflatable cylinder shaped air bags near enough to the spring internal size were available, these were mainly for beefing up van suspensions.
I was then able to devise a system of inflateing the air bags modelled on the Monroe system.So all that was required was to know the unloaded car wheelarch height then inflate up to this height when loaded.
In fact the system worked so well that it was possible to lift the rear end 2"+ more.
Even when fully loaded.
All that was needed to get my MV6 back was to deflate the air bags back to about 3 psi.
I used the system for nearly 2 yrs up to a deer leaping a hedge on a narrow country road directly into the front of the car when going at high speed which resulted in a right off.
With my wife and myself in shock it ended my MV6 style motoring there and then talk about the unexpected!!!
It was so unbelievably easy to change the cars load bearing qualities and still keep the suspension in std form.
As I removed the complete system before the car went, and I'm happy with the rear springs on Miggy and the only mod req is to chop off the bump stops from the spring bedding rubbers.
As it seems the pressure data I need is'nt available,
I'll go ahead and firstly Tee in to the existing s/l system and possibly read the systems pressure readings for future reference.
If it's not possible to integrate them I'll revert back to the seperate 12v pump + gauge located in the estate r/h load space lgcker :y :y
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Remember that the self levelling system is just a sensor which has 2 outputs:
1) Pump (actuated via a relay) to raise the suspension
2) Solenoid valve to lower the suspension
In other words, suck it and see. If the pump is not up to the job, it would be perfectly feasible to replace it with something else, driven by the same ECU. A 12V tyre inflator perhaps? The bleed valve to let the system down again might be more tricky to sort but I'm sure it's possible.
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Or another angle... Bin the sl shocks but connect the sl pump to the air bladders fitted inside lowered sports chassis (face lift mv6) springs with same lsc spec shocks...?
Gives the ride your happy with, but connect the bladders to the stock sl pump...?
Maybe...?
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Thanks Chris,thats good logical thinking!!!
I think I follow you, what your saying is think about abandoning the useage of inflateable shocks for inflateable spring assisters,
Which would put extra load stress where it belongs, within the spring and it's mounts,and take it away from the shock mounts.
I think this is a simple thing to check out.
Maybe take away the air supply from the shocks and connect it to the bladders.
Thanks Kevin for your usual expert know how on how the air system works I still have the 12v tyre inflator,gauge and low pressure warning buzzer as used on the MV6 I'll try 1st of all simply as said installing the bladders (excellent wording Chris)then connecting the resident air supply to the bladders and take it from there.
Will of course post up how it goes :y :y
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Lsc mv6 ride is far superior IMO. Sl shocks, as dampers, are poor by comparison.
Using your air bladders in the springs while towing only might be the answer, as you had before, but connected to the elite sl pump. You could then activat/de activate it when towing by removing or re fitting the relay in the fuse box under steering wheel...?
Or wire in a switch...? :-/
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I'm watching this thread with interest ;) ;)
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Indeed, if those bladders work, and are available...might suit my purposes as well. :)
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Indeed, if those bladders work, and are available...might suit my purposes as well. :)
Even though mines a saloon....
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Have you any thoughts on how the s/l shocks would function minus the air feed?shortly I'm going to install the bladders into the springs,and with your help I now see the options as:-
transfer the airlines from the shocks to feed the bladders under the same controls as was the shocks,and possibly install alternative springs or shocks or both.
Install the original pump up system on a stand alone basis and pump up the bladders to a known preset pressure to support the suspension yet allow it to function as if unloaded when a caravan is hitched.
If your interested in some bladders I think I can remember where the firm is located in Leeds I'll take the bladders in to them before I fit them to miggy and find out if there still available :y
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Now have the bladders installed inside the springs with their relative tubing so have been able to do a road test,did it at 30psi as in the instructions it gives this as the max unladen pressure (max when laden is 40psi) this lifted the rear end of miggy by 2" and firmed up the the springing considerably,although she still was a good drive, of course the best way is per the instructions to pump up 1st then release when loaded to achieve the correct level, this allows the bladders to mesh proper with the springs. I'm going to run the system as a stand alone system alongside miggy's s/l shocks. I think if I disconect the airlines off the shocks then hitch on the loaded caravan and note the pressure needed to level the outfit that should give me the status quo air pressure reading required with the s/l system operational and working also.I must say that the test drive (about 5 mls) has re-awakened my enthusiasm for this bladder system as it actually seems to compliment miggy's s/l shocks,the system also has a minimum working pressure of 5psi and a warning pressure switch and buzzer that operates at 0.2bar. Luckily When I dug out the kit I was very surprised to find the instructions there also must have been one of my tidyer packing away days! Took some pics of the kit and going to take some of the install and try and do a guide if anyone's interested
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Now been running with the bladders installed for about 200 mls at minimum recommended air pressure of 5 psi.
I think there is a slightly stiffer feel to the rear end,as opposed to the std Elite and I'm well pleased
Also one that may or may not please the suspension purist mods:-
The rear end wheelarch to ground clearance appears to have increased by 15mm.
On Weds we're off to North Wales for about 2 wks and will have the Pikey wagon with a full load in tow so this should be a good test :y :y
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Sounds promising Cliffo. :y
Do you have a link on where we can get the kit?
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Yes Chris,I think so will get back shortly :y
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sorry can't yet do the proper links but if you google
www.mad-suspension.co.uk
then scroll down from the yellow section to blue then to the red section your there.
Chris if you PM me your address I'll be happy to post you photocopies of the instructions their fairly comprehensive
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Just tried it from the forum it's not the correct one!!
Google it then pick up www.mad-suspension frmm the webpage
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Are these the ones Cliffo?
http://www.mad-suspension.co.uk/Progressive.php
Red things at the bottom?
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yes Chris they are the suppliers the red things are the bladders :y
Although the website layout would appear to have been changed
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Excellent, thanks Cliffo, your a star. :y
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Hello all, just a few words on how things went with Miggy's suspension update ;D :y
With the outfit fully loaded and on level ground I deflated miggy's S/l system by disconnecting the air line to a shocker
I then pumped up the bladders to 25psi this raised up miggy' loaded rear end with the caravan hitched on
I then deflated the air bladders to lower miggy's rear end to the standard unloaded 27" to the center of the wheel arch
I then read the pressure of the bladders on the inline dial gauge which was 12psi
This is to be the bladders operating pressure defined by the extra weight/load
I then reconnected the airline to miggy's shocker to bring her self leveling system fully operational
So now all that is required on unhitching the van and restoreing miggy to unladen mode is to deflate the bladders to 3psi
This is done in about 30secs, Incidently I now know it takes less than a minute to reinflate the bladders when hitching back up.
We did journeys to a site in North Wales and back home, then to North Yorks and back home,and another to North Yorks and back all loaded with the caravan in tow
After this I can only say that we found the bladder mod to be a huge success I say we because Winifred noticed the considerable improvement
I did try out miggy for a few miles with the bladders deflated considering she was towing an 18ft van with Winifreds buggy in the back and of course the lpg tank,aquaroll and wastemaster,it was an acceptable tow but I was well aware she was towing.
With the bladders inflated apart from the autobox working a little harder it was easy to forget the load Miggy was pulling
It seems to me the installed inflated bladders allow miggy's suspension to perform as if there is no extra load,this includes the springs and S/L shocks,they can carry on doing their job as if without extra load,as the bladders inflated to the pressure determined by the extra load take that extra load away from the rest of the suspension
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On re reading it seems there is an answer missing to one of your questions Cliffo.
Sadly i dont think the oe shocks will take kindly to lack of air. If the oe bladders are deflated for any reason, the outer membrane sits tightly against the inner membrane and the shock body. Hence if suspension movement is introduced, the oe bladder will chafe. :(
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Hmm thanks Chris
Food for thought
Just been to check rear wheel suspension it is presently 261/2"
I think possibly the 1/2"differance from 27" could be the winter wheels recently fitted on
Or Winifred's buggy which is on board
Must say in all the mileage done with the spring bladders inflated to 12 psi and loaded with van in tow the shockers were certainly operateing in proper restrain mode no sign of any up and down motion
Tommorow I'll check out the s/l system and come back
Must go as my grandkids are here for a visit
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I am about to hopefully post some pics of the bladders installed
and as a new topic needs info I hope I am correct in adding this post to bring it forward
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A splendid thread - very interesting indeed. 8) :y
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I would say so Cliffo. Looking forward to pics :)
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What year did the Elites start getting the self levelling air suspension fitted ?
Thanks
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What year did the Elites start getting the self levelling air suspension fitted ?
Thanks
All Elites had it from the start afaik. And some plod cars.
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I am about to hopefully post some pics of the bladders installed
and as a new topic needs info I hope I am correct in adding this post to bring it forward
Please do because i need to do something asap with my estate thats quite liturally sat on its arse!! after S/L dampers burst & fitting irmscher springs & unable to find shortened shocks to fit them...(except Bilstein B8s @ £220 a pair!)
or if i can use S'L rear shocks with lowered suspension?
i want to fit airbags into rear springs to stiffen it a little & pump them up when ive got 200kg of work gear in the boot!
i want to keep car lowered for drifting & daily use..
But stop rear sinking to the bumpstops with my work tools & equipment but calnt find anything to suite my needs as like you i want to use exsisting S/L pump fitted to car.... Can i speak to you via phone?? txt me & i call at a convenent time my number is 07534 967604
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I'd remove that number from public view and pm cliffo. Or search his posts from his profile re the air bags, the info is there.
Bilstein b4 will work fine with 30 mill drop. But they do sag further with extra load. They just will.
Sl shocks are good for self leveling, but the damping is fairly appalling as the air bladders dont seem to be able to transfer air in and out to keep the independant suspension feel at the rear. They cant react to bumps quick enough and make the chassis roll excesively for sport applications.
I believe Cliffo has the solution with the air bags in springs idea, while using a sport shock of choice. Hopefully the air bags wont get pinched by the springs if deflated when car is unloaded and self levelling relay removed to give best handling with an empty car.
Then when loaded, plug the relay in to jack the back up.
Sl shocks cant do this, because the handling is crap, and the bladders chaif themselves to bits when deflated. They must be inflated to work correctly, or the suspension movement will destroy the deflated bladders.
Although the cheapest option will be to fit sl shocks with your lowered irmscher springs, and tweak the sl sensor arm to give the desired ride hight. They should take some lowering as sl are flitted to some plod cars that sit 15mill lower than stock. Would think another 15 mill would be ok, but thats a gamble you'll be taking if they bottom out. Sl shocks are about £180 a pair on trade club.
Hth
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I'd remove that number from public view and pm cliffo. Or search his posts from his profile re the air bags, the info is there.
Bilstein b4 will work fine with 30 mill drop. But they do sag further with extra load. They just will.
Sl shocks are good for self leveling, but the damping is fairly appalling as the air bladders dont seem to be able to transfer air in and out to keep the independant suspension feel at the rear. They cant react to bumps quick enough and make the chassis roll excesively for sport applications.
I believe Cliffo has the solution with the air bags in springs idea, while using a sport shock of choice. Hopefully the air bags wont get pinched by the springs if deflated when car is unloaded and self levelling relay removed to give best handling with an empty car.
Then when loaded, plug the relay in to jack the back up.
Sl shocks cant do this, because the handling is crap, and the bladders chaif themselves to bits when deflated. They must be inflated to work correctly, or the suspension movement will destroy the deflated bladders.
Although the cheapest option will be to fit sl shocks with your lowered irmscher springs, and tweak the sl sensor arm to give the desired ride hight. They should take some lowering as sl are flitted to some plod cars that sit 15mill lower than stock. Would think another 15 mill would be ok, but thats a gamble you'll be taking if they bottom out. Sl shocks are about £180 a pair on trade club.
Hth
Hi unsure how to delete my number... but everybody seem v helpfull so havent got an issue, ive decided to bin the irmscher springs as the fronts are 30mm & rear 50mm empty!! looks like the bottom pigtails have snapped so new springs required, car looks great at ridehight it is perfectly level but rear is very soft as im using frontera front shox modded so i can use the car after the S/L rears burst b4 i had chance to see if any good with springs & the monroe load levellers arnt designed for any lowered omega (according to monroe) as i found they bottom out because too long, so ive ordered a full set of coilovers with heavyer poundage rear springs at 1360kg per axel (not the 1060kg standards norm in kit) with a 20/80mm drop all round with manual C spanner adjustment & im going to fit a set of airbags inside rear coils that i can inflate if extra lift required but with HD rear coils fingers crossed should be ok without i hope :y Feel free to txt me if you've any other ideas oh also on my diff prob or heated seat posts cheers Chris!
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At last I think I can post pics of the air bladders installed as originally promised
And hopefully anything else
Been quite challenge
A proper learning curve
However persistance I hope has payed off
So here goes :y
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At last I think I can post pics of the air bladders installed as originally promised
And hopefully anything else
Been quite challenge
A proper learning curve
However persistance I hope has payed off
So here goes :y
quick quick!!
ive fitted a pair of standard S/L rear shocks & altered the possition of the sensor so i can run the 45mm drop & even when loaded still sits how i want it so at mo all good :y
but bladders maybe required at a later date......
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Could someone in admin please add a rider warning of a fair few pics
I tried by adding to the subject title but it disappeared in the posting
Hope this is Ok
Thanks
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Don't worry C, just post the pics. :y
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Bladder kit before install,after removal from previous Miggie
Ignore white tube (wrong one)Correct one is polyurethane tube 6 mm by4mm
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/57377687/047.jpg) (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/57377687/048.jpg)
Car jacked up with suspension hanging, wheels off, and about 0 psi in bladders
Airline connection points to bladder nipples from spring base platforms,look hard can just be seen
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/57377687/003.jpg) (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/57377687/009.jpg)
Airline routed through spring base platforms and reduced bump stops
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/57377687/008.jpg) (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/57377687/010.jpg)
Airline supply from boot (over petrol tank) to Tee off to each bladder
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/57377687/011.jpg) (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/57377687/014.jpg)
Bladders with 12psi pressure,and suspension supporting full weight of car only (No load),12psi is pressure req with caravan + Load
Brake drums sitting on axle stands
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/57377687/015.jpg) (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/57377687/019.jpg)
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The gauge,pressure switch,and low pressure warning buzzer gismo with inflation valve in the 2 top pics is installed
I think rather neatly in the loading bay
Should be able to post pics later today
Already have them
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For the record L/hand pic is L/hand Item and conversely R/hand is R/hand
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Here are the pics of where I located the bladder control point
As can be seen I used the rear light access cover panel
Just wish the pressure gauge was a flush fit
Tried a tyre guage on the schrader valve for a while which worked quite well
Untill true to form I lost it!!
There is a fused 12v supply to an in line low pressure warning switch
This in turn operates a buzzer
The buzzer is disabled/enabled by the mini switch
As is needed when the bladders are non operational
I can safely say that the buzzer has never sounded in anger
This in a good few thousand mls of enjoyable touring
As Ive mentioned earlier on in the thread Miggy can handle towing Ok without bladder assistance
But to have a caravan hooked on and Miggy haveing full and complete control of leveling and suspension as if solo
For me has to be experienced to be believed and is well worth the trouble :y :y
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/57377687/SDC13600.jpg) (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/57377687/SDC13597.jpg)
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/57377687/SDC13599.jpg) (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/57377687/SDC13601.jpg)
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Excellent information Cliff and something I'm considering ;)
I wonder if there is any way to hide the control gubbins away within the raised boot floor :-\ ???
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Cracking job there Cliff :y
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Ah yes
Did think of that
But wouldn't be accessable to normalise suspension when un-hooking van
Especially with Winifred's buggy parked up and other touring essentials loaded
Remember haveing to unload Miggy at the Lakes Meet?
If you do decide to go ahead I'll be happy to help with info
Can tell you now the particular part No of the bladders is 46150
You can see it on top of the bladders in the pics as a blue smudge
There is differing sizes of bladders with optional Schrader valves/nipples
To make sure the bladders are still available
I've recently been in touch with the makers
And got an email with an attached listing
We'll be more than likely going to a meet this year
Especially if there's one at the Lakes
If you were there it would be a good chance to check out Miggy's bladders :y :y
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Thanks should be Tigers ::)
Sure took me long enough :o
Well easy :-[
Being retired and labour of love :y
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Ah yes
Did think of that
But wouldn't be accessable to normalise suspension when un-hooking van
Especially with Winifred's buggy parked up and other touring essentials loaded
Remember haveing to unload Miggy at the Lakes Meet?
If you do decide to go ahead I'll be happy to help with info
Can tell you now the particular part No of the bladders is 46150
You can see it on top of the bladders in the pics as a blue smudge
There is differing sizes of bladders with optional Schrader valves/nipples
To make sure the bladders are still available
I've recently been in touch with the makers
And got an email with an attached listing
We'll be more than likely going to a meet this year
Especially if there's one at the Lakes
If you were there it would be a good chance to check out Miggy's bladders :y :y
Yes... Needs some careful thought if trying to hide it all away ::)
And, of course, you really need the car loaded when adjusting the pressures so needs to be fairly accessible ::) I wonder if it could be hidden in the front face of the raised floor, recessed obviously, so that you open the tailgate and it's right there in front of you on the O/S :-\
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Just thought on Paul when I had it installed in the MV6
I had a small 12v compressor permanently in line and all the required gubbins located in the small R/H locker
This worked very well
However the R/h locker now is needed for a very essential items storage :'( :-[ :-[
And occasional urgent need ;) :(
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There is no pressure variables or adjusting required
The pressure requirement is fixed on 1st install
Deflate Miggy's S/L system
Load Miggy for touring
Inflate bladders to restore Miggy's rear wheel arch to the std height
Take note of the pressure needed
For me is 12psi
Restore miggy's S/L system to normal working auto inflation mode
From now on all loading being reasonably equal for a journey
I just inflate to 12psi
Once inflated to 12psi for a journey no further top ups or adjustments are needed
Untill journey's end when I deflate the bladders
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There is no pressure variables or adjusting required
The pressure requirement is fixed on 1st install
Deflate Miggy's S/L system
Load Miggy for touring
Inflate bladders to restore Miggy's rear wheel arch to the std height
Take note of the pressure needed
For me is 12psi
Restore miggy's S/L system to normal working auto inflation mode
From now on all loading being reasonably equal for a journey
I just inflate to 12psi
Once inflated to 12psi for a journey no further top ups or adjustments are needed
Untill journey's end when I deflate the bladders
I didn't make myself clear. If/when I fit them it is to replace the S/L system as I find it too soft.
Would be needed only when fully loaded but I'd need to be able to access the gubbins when loaded up to set the pressure, although I suppose I could do it in advance :-\ :-\
Still good info and I'm sure we could work something out :y
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Think I now understand where your coming from
Can't see any problem in the gubbins installed in the area you want
The warning system could be out of site anywhere
The only bits needing ready access is the inflation valve and of course the little on/off switch
For pressure reading you could use any suitably convenient tyre gauge off the schrader valve
Or a 12v pump with a dgital gauge
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Can these not be connected to the original SL pump and airlines? no gubbins needed then? Pull the relay when not in use...?
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Although thinking about it, pulling the relay won't release the air from the bladders. :-\
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Ok Chris I thought long and hard as it would seem as you think the obvious way to go
I simply decided to keep the air supply to the bladders seperate
This to read and diagnose easily any problems the 2 systems had working together firstly when under individual rated pressures
As per my original post I never did get to know what the working pressures are of the S/L system
I was pleasantly surprised to find that they integrated together so well
So the need for that info became redundant
This when set up so the bladders are the factors that assist only the springs to bear the measured extra load
This allows the shocks to do their work without excess stress and to some degree as if no extra load exists
And I suppose it now seems to me so much simpler and less complicated
In practice it works like a dream
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Don't forget Chris, you and I have very different requirements to those of Cliff ;)
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Can these not be connected to the original SL pump and airlines? no gubbins needed then? Pull the relay when not in use...?
Seems the obvious solution to me, even if you ditch the SL ECU then fit a manual switch and pressure gauge to inflate/deflate. No messing about with an external pump. :y
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Can these not be connected to the original SL pump and airlines? no gubbins needed then? Pull the relay when not in use...?
Seems the obvious solution to me, even if you ditch the SL ECU then fit a manual switch and pressure gauge to inflate/deflate. No messing about with an external pump. :y
Good place to start, see how it goes and develop from there. :)
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Initially I was going to integrate the bladders into the S/L system
As you said in your post Kevin "suck it & see"
However when I realised as per your post I was in line to take out Miggy's S/L system
This to me is unacceptable as I think it to be one of Miggy's valued assets in normal mode
After all the S/L coped reasonably well when towing
Although I was always aware that stronger springs would cancell a tendency for the suspension to feel soft & swayey
When I installed the bladders and did the tests I was utterly gobsmacked how well the bladders complimented the S/L shocks
So long as the bladders inflation pressure is just right to remove the extra load off the springs
The shocks simply S/L and work as if Miggy is'nt loaded
I think possibly if say extra loading takes place without extra pressure in the bladders to compensate
The S/L shocks will work as the S/L sensors will instruct
The bladders and the air assisted shocks work well together
Lets say the bladders are the strong muscle and the air shocks are the delicate touch
In view of of all this I'm happy to leave things as they are
It takes about 2 mins to connect the pump and inflate the bladders when hitching up and 20secs to deflate when unhitching
Thanks Kevin for your interest and the aforementioned post
I did "Suck it and See"
Only so far but far enough :y :y
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Ah well Chris,
I've got to say good place for me to finish
I wanted to give Miggy the ability to take extra load + tug a caravan and not to be aware of extra stress
I got this with Spades
I now understand Chris that you want to use the bladders to help in another direction
If I can help in any way Ill be happy to :y
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That's a great help already Cliffo. :-* :y
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Ah, didn't realise it was installed in addition to the self levelling system. Fir enough, just to give it a little helping hand when towing. Must admit, I'd be tempted to do the same, as the MV6 ride height is a little low with a bit of weight on the hitch, but I don't tow that often.
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Could this not be used with heavy duty springs and S/L shocks to really firm the back end up? Ride height may be a bit off though :-\
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Could this not be used with heavy duty springs and S/L shocks to really firm the back end up? Ride height may be a bit off though :-\
Trouble is, some of us find S/L shocks inadequate for our normal driving ::) But need the s/l option for when fully loaded ;)
These air bags seem to be the ideal solution :-\
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My intension is to use these (with the stock pump and sensor to start with) to replace SL shocks and their levelling function.
My car has irmscher springs with 30mill drop, and b4 shocks all round. The SL shocks have been binned as they are rubbish as dampers.
This set up is fine with day to day use, but load up on holiday and the back is too low, as anyone attending the lakes last year may have seen.
So, hopefully, the best of both worlds answer would be as said above, fit Cliffo's air bladders in the springs for when fully loaded, and turn it off when not needed, or it may work full time if I can set the level sponsor at the desired position. We'll see. :)
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Al,I think it certainly would affect height without a load
Depends on how much pressure is in the bladders
In the instruction manual it gives the maximum allowed pressure as 30psi unloaded
And 40psi loaded
Later today I'll take some wheel arch height readings @ say 5psi increments up to the 30psi max
Unloaded of course
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That looks good Chris :y
I obviously can't anticipate your suspension set up
You may need a differant bladder size
I don't think the bladders work that much on push up
But push out between the spring coils giveing extra support to the coils
If I can find the guy's details I spoke to I'll PM you
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Could this not be used with heavy duty springs and S/L shocks to really firm the back end up? Ride height may be a bit off though :-\
They might firm up the springs but damping is what the S/L setup lacks, and it won't help there.
Replacement of the shocks with standard, then adding the bladders to restore self-levelling function might be worth a try. What we need to establish is the parameters of the levelling pump. I.E. what pressure can it deliver? Is it going to be man enough to inflate the bladders, and is it likely to burst them? :o
Anyone got one kicking around that I can experiment with?
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I may be misunderstanding something, but .. if you're using a bladder within the spring to provide the levelling, won't you also be progressively raising the spring rate as you raise the car?
I'd have thought a 'levelling' system ought to use a bladder outside of the spring - either sandwiched above it or below it, or within the damper per the OE system to effectively make the damper longer or shorter (though doing that in itself probably changes the effective spring rate as you'll change the preload on the spring - so I guess the best system would be a bladder that can move the spring platform along with a suitably long throw shock absorber)..
Somehow it sounds like a worse compromise than the OE levelling system.. and different to what Cliffo has achieved, which is essentially a system that lets him restore the spring rate to suit the ride he wants, rather than the ride height he wants?
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I can say the bladders have a fairly thick gauge wall
The plastic is of a very tough resilient nature
I do believe it would take a lot of pressure to burst it when encased within a spring
When it comes to getting the bladder inside the spring its just about impossible
Certainly my hands/fingers could'nt cope the plastic was far too strong
I devised the following method
Could be a better way
Connect about a metre of tube to the nipple
Get a bucket of hot soapy water
Use a pella to create a vac in the bladder
Dunk the bladder in the water
Safe enough with the tube on the nipple (water could'nt enter the bladder)
I think the need of the vacuum in the bladder could be down to arthur in my hands :( :o
5yrs ago on the MV6
Seem to remember a bucket of hot water was all that was needed :y
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The way I see it, ride hight needs to be supported with extra weight, and spring rate needs to increase with extra weight. Will this not achieve both?
The oe system on shock bladders give little independance per wheel on the rear in all circumstances, and its worse when loaded with little give. Too small a bladder or not elastic enough perhaps? Or maybe the air can't transfer side to side quick enough through the oe air pipes? That issue would still remain useimg stock SL sensor and pump. But only when plugged in. Although I may need to fit a purge valve somehow.
I don't see a need for a level system at all if unloaded.
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Kevin I found the bladders worked superb on my MV6
That after all was why I got them :y
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Just checked out the bladders body lift
Unloaded
Wheelarch meas without pressure 67.5cm
Meas with 30psi after run round block 70cm
This is of course with S/L operational
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Well Cris,
To use Kevins phraseology why not "Suck It And See"?
Install the bladders with airline from each to Tee
Airline from Tee to schrader valve
There you have the basis for testing and working out a control system
I'll do a post on how I plumbed in the airline thro the spring base platforms(not easy)
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I may be misunderstanding something, but .. if you're using a bladder within the spring to provide the levelling, won't you also be progressively raising the spring rate as you raise the car?
Yes, but is that necessarily a problem?
I'd have thought a 'levelling' system ought to use a bladder outside of the spring - either sandwiched above it or below it, or within the damper per the OE system to effectively make the damper longer or shorter (though doing that in itself probably changes the effective spring rate as you'll change the preload on the spring - so I guess the best system would be a bladder that can move the spring platform along with a suitably long throw shock absorber)..
If you're determined not to change the spring rate the solution would be a solid spring platform that can be wound up and down - a bit like on an adjustable coil-over shock absorber. Motor to wind the platform up and down. The problem is making it suitable for retro-fitting, which this solution does very well. With more weight you'd probably want a stiffer spring rate anyway (and different damping in an ideal world).
Somehow it sounds like a worse compromise than the OE levelling system.. and different to what Cliffo has achieved, which is essentially a system that lets him restore the spring rate to suit the ride he wants, rather than the ride height he wants?
But the OE levelling system is all wallowy anyway so why not try to achieve the levelling functionality with the betterb handling that better shocks and springs achieve?
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I am no expert on sport lowered suspension systems
Never really had the opportunity to compare the performance differences between a std vehicle & modified one
I think its to do with my reluctance to stress a motor to its very limits
Think its just how I am
I've thought about how I feel the bladders would function in a sport suspension environment
And the answer to me is much the same as with std suspension
The bladders will beef up the springs to take the extra weight load
Perhaps how they do this can be seen in the 2 pics showing the bladders inflated to 12psi
The bladders appear to expand outward from within the spring more than upward
Could not this have a damping effect on the spring coils?
This hopefully will allow the shocks to iron out bounce & jounce
This is at the level of the vehicle as dictated by the air pressure from within the bladders
If on testing the bladders come up to expectations
Then simply connect the OE system airline to the bladder airline
This could be simple the bladder airline is 6mm O/D and 4mm I/D
If the OE O/D is 4mm?
As already said its down to the system pump being up to the task
When I installed the bladders originally on my MV6
I used a cheap on board pump/tyre inflator plumbed in the estate rear side locker controlled by a manual switch
And used this for about 2yrs without any probs
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Hi,
I'm glad to found this topic. This is exactly what I was looking for! My MV6 has been built from SL to normal, but it rides too low even though I have also replaced the springs. Could somebody tell how much does the bags cost? I can't find on the MAD suspension website and it also seems they don't sell outside of UK :(
There is a similar product sold here in Hungary, but in only one size and I can't decide wether it would be okay or not. It is 20cm high and the diameter is only 8cm. Seems too small, doesn't it?