Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Shark1e on 10 September 2011, 17:58:43
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Hi all,
Well my tractor is getting worse at starting, glow timer light complete waste of time,
I have to wait until the ignition lights go brighter or i hear the relay clunck off.
replaced all 4 plugs with bosch ones nearly two years ago when i had it, suspecting they were going down. but whilst it did barely improve, it was still not right, even during the hottest part of our summer i had to wait until fully nuclear melt down ;D i have noticed that even if i start the engine after say coming back out from the shop etc it still needs some time to charge etc.
yesterday it had to wind over some time then turn ignition off and let it fully heat before it would start firing.
first thing in the morning and fully heated via relay clunck, and she will fire less than half turn or so it feels etc.
air / fuel filters changed regulary and can't see any leaks anywhere not even from return pipes.
So looking for some expert advice on this as where to start first.
thanks in advance
Rob
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sounds like intank pump is blocked/failed? have you checked it?
failing that fuel heater loose on top iof the filter can also cause drainback problems, test the glow plugs from the ecu box just to make sure they havent gone down, but if it didnt cure the poor starting then when you replaced them i would be looking at other problems such as fuel draining back overnight as suggested :y
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cheers mate,
drainback was my first thought but unsure where to start or where to start.
only thing on that thought is once it fires if been winding over, it kicks out smoke for a few seconds like an old battleship going in for the kill lol so says to me that the diesel already flowing but not getting heat to fire? wonder if a heater wire is failing really weird, but more still towards drainback!
is there a one way valve to stop drainback?
you mention heater on the filter? can you explain this one better
ta rob
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ok main places i have found drainback happening are ,
1, fuel heater loose, this is easily loosened when changing fuel filter!!its mounted just above the filter on the same screw thread,IT ACTUALLY looks like part of the mounting bracket!! just remove filter and tighten then replace filter, also
has a few wires going to it make sure these are not broke while there,
2,obvious but leak off pipes especially the hidden one that goes back to the i.p. end of this often splits owing to heat and vibration, pain to change as you are working almost blind with inlet on but doable,
3, main fuel lines change from metal to flexible via crimped joints, these i have found leaking twice!! again due to age and vibration gradually working them loose enough to allow air in, i only heard it hissing when the engine was switched off and started to cool, (was doing another job at the time i heard it)
the other one had a damp look around the joint but i dint hear any hissing as i was specifically looking at this joint as a cause to difficult starting!!
good luck finding the cause buddy
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thanks mate, away till tomorz in mrs hot rod (ford KA) lol
changed the fuel filter the last week of june and if i'm honest has got worse since then urrrrrrmmmm :-?
what do you mean by returns to i.p?
thanks rob
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Hi all,
Well my tractor is getting worse at starting, glow timer light complete waste of time,
I have to wait until the ignition lights go brighter or i hear the relay clunck off.
replaced all 4 plugs with bosch ones nearly two years ago when i had it, suspecting they were going down. but whilst it did barely improve, it was still not right, even during the hottest part of our summer i had to wait until fully nuclear melt down ;D i have noticed that even if i start the engine after say coming back out from the shop etc it still needs some time to charge etc.
yesterday it had to wind over some time then turn ignition off and let it fully heat before it would start firing.
first thing in the morning and fully heated via relay clunck, and she will fire less than half turn or so it feels etc.
air / fuel filters changed regulary and can't see any leaks anywhere not even from return pipes.
So looking for some expert advice on this as where to start first.
thanks in advance
Rob
Was this a typing error as the tractor 6 glowplugs (2.5td) not 4
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what do you mean by returns to i.p?
Injector pump.
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Take a look here - click: http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1251298222
;)
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yes sorry typo should read all 6 changed.
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excellent link mate thanks, i can confirm this is worse when around the 20 ltr or less mark, i have noticed it lacks a bit of power sometimes,
hopefully start this job after work monday.
will report back any news
thanks all
rob
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ok story so far:
stripped tank fuel pump out today.
strainer on bottom not too bad certainly not like the pictures on the workshop on here.
swirl pot was about same as the pictures.
pump runs both ways when reversed poles
all parts blown out with compressor.
pumped nearly all the remaining diesel out into 25ltr drum.
not too bad on bottom of the tank from what i could see, wiped all around pump / swirlpot area and re-assembled all parts / refilled diesel and fired the old gal up.
still think it is taking too long to start compared to when i had her 2 years ago, but seems to run and tick over smooth.
too early to say if totally cured so hopefully tomorrow will tell more.
so anymore pointers will be gratefully received in the mean time.
cheers to all so far
rob
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Take it for an Italian tune up (
[size=8]Boot the s**t out of it)[/size] if you haven't done this already. :y
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I fitted one of the "HOT FIX" gadgets to my tractor, and it really helps with starting once warmed up.....
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hot-Starting-Fix-BMW-Vauxhall-Opel-Omega-Diesel-M51-/370308699137?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item56381e5401
I would recommend fitting this, once you've solved the cold start problem (ie fuel supply pressure etc.)
Cheers, BP
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Take it for an Italian tune up ([size=8]Boot the s**t out of it)[/size] if you haven't done this already. :y
italian tune completed lol seems smoother but did wind over a bit after i stopped to get some go go juice.
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Take it for an Italian tune up ([size=8]Boot the s**t out of it)[/size] if you haven't done this already. :y
italian tune completed lol seems smoother but did wind over a bit after i stopped to get some go go juice.
That helps get rid of the carbon as for starting when hot sounds like you need the hot fix kit :y
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Good luck with it, Mate
Hope your efforts have sorted it for ya.
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I fitted one of the "HOT FIX" gadgets to my tractor, and it really helps with starting once warmed up.....
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hot-Starting-Fix-BMW-Vauxhall-Opel-Omega-Diesel-M51-/370308699137?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item56381e5401
I would recommend fitting this, once you've solved the cold start problem (ie fuel supply pressure etc.)
Cheers, BP
ok thinking to my self aloud is this common in unchipped or is it just related to chipped tractors like ours?
where does that box fit? onto what etc? just trying to get my head round how this can work. unless its resetting some ecu values etc.
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thanks mate, away till tomorz in mrs hot rod (ford KA) lol
changed the fuel filter the last week of june and if i'm honest has got worse since then urrrrrrmmmm :-?
what do you mean by returns to i.p?
thanks rob
Before delving any deeper, I'd suggest removing the fuel filter (and it's casing) as a complete unit from the car.
Grip the cast head portion in a vice and unscrew the filter.
Then unscrew the fuel heater boss, and check the rubber seal between it and the head portion.
Re-seat the seal correctly, then securely re-fit the fuel heater boss.
Fill a new filter with Comma Diesel Magic or Forte, then refit the complete unit to the car.
Give it another 'Italian Tune-up', see what happens, and report back!
;)
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ok fuel filter complete housing removed stripped and cleaned, re-assembled in workshop and refitted as complete unit.
started within 1/4 to 1/2 turn of engine, ran for a while to make sure all diesel pulled through and stopped engine, tried to start felt like 2 turns needed before fired. arrrrrrggggghhhhh.
left to cool down whilst at brother in laws doing a job, came out 1/2 turn and away we go, back home quick check and couple of turns again.
so this issue is deff related to once warmed.
any thought please.
thanks rob
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just found this on a landrover site, sure it's my mates website lol oh well sure he won't mind it i borrow this below.
The original fault seems to me to be down to the programming by BMW - the fault is common to all BMW 2.5 Diesel applications not just Range Rover but Vauxhall Omega too. BMW programme the system so that when the engine is warm it gets NO preheat NO timing advance and NO extra fuel to help it start. Once the engines "get on a bit" like all of us they need a little help to start that BMW do not give - all the fix does is tell the engine it is cold whilst the relay is energised and that it is at the sensed temperature once the relay is de energised. The reason that Chipping the engine works is that the chip bypassess most of BMW's programming and tells the Pump to deliver the fuel you request with the accelerator regardless of what the German engineers think is just enough - that little bit of help - and of course better power delivery at differing profiles - remember BMW did not want the P38 to out perform the X5 they were working on at the same time......
now back to my thoughts, mines chipped so unless the chip is having a bitch fit then not sure where we are again lol
the guy i got the chip from offered to reflash it for me so may take him up on it.
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Hmm sounds like you have improved things then?
ok easy test to find out whether or not you have the hot start problem,
when you next go for a drive carry a bottle of water with you, when you stop and do whatever you have to do, when you try to start the car if it wont go immediatly cos its hot, pop bonnet and pour the cold water over the injection pump, then try to start, if you have hot start problem it will start almost immediately after the cold water treatment!! let us know how you get on
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can do mate, read that also about using a funnel to channel all the water onto i.p
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can do mate, read that also about using a funnel to channel all the water onto i.p
yep go for it buddy, my new one has a bit of a strugggle starting when hot, it was awful on ordinary diesel, soon as i started using the super diesel in it it got a lot better, still not as good as me old one but liveable with! I may yet invest in the hotstart fix but the fuel temp sender can be changed with the pump in situ which wil also cure it, but i havent any new inoet gaskets here and i dont want to take the inlet off agin till i have to for another job!! so i live with it ::) lol
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Experienced the 'hot start' aggro even after having had a re-con injection pump fitted to our previous TD; at a cost of over 1200 quid.
>:(
Out of sheer frustration (and desperation!), I fitted a brand new (and TD-specific) battery - problem solved!
:y
And that car is still going strong with another OOFer two years later!
;)
I've since 'cured' another TD with the hot-start bug by fitting a brand new battery of the correct spec.
IME; if your cranking speed is even (ever so) slightly under positively whizzing the engine over, this is a successful fix.
Obviously, you need to check the alternator's output rate etc first.
See: http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225724099
Good luck :y
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Experienced the 'hot start' aggro even after having had a re-con injection pump fitted to our previous TD; at a cost of over 1200 quid.
>:(
Out of sheer frustration (and desperation!), I fitted a brand new (and TD-specific) battery - problem solved!
:y
And that car is still going strong with another OOFer two years later!
;)
I've since 'cured' another TD with the hot-start bug by fitting a brand new battery of the correct spec.
IME; if your cranking speed is even (ever so) slightly under positively whizzing the engine over, this is a successful fix.
Obviously, you need to check the alternator's output rate etc first.
See: http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225724099
Good luck :y
good call no idea how long mines been on. but true it maybe be if the cca is shot then may be worth a shot. cold weather will soon tell how good the battery is. thanks.
also is the coolant sensor standard part number? anyone know the number or way of getting mine?
thanks
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Just ordered the temp sensor from this link http://www.carpartsconnexion.com/vauxhall/partdetail.asp?dp=120722&f=Vauxhall&m=Any+model&y=Any+year&cat=0&pn=90510660&p=1&
£6.85 + £1.50 pp from newry ireland brand new. worth a try for that much
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I think it's the( in pump) sensor that needs changing.
Hot start fix is just 2k ohm in series with pump sensor till engine fires,
Thin grey or grey blue IIRC.
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Just ordered the temp sensor from this link http://www.carpartsconnexion.com/vauxhall/partdetail.asp?dp=120722&f=Vauxhall&m=Any+model&y=Any+year&cat=0&pn=90510660&p=1&
£6.85 + £1.50 pp from newry ireland brand new. worth a try for that much
Are you sure that you've got the right part here?
I'm pretty sure that you need a FUEL temp sensor ....... :D
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Vx gave the number. seller said got one spade terminal on it. the sensor i have on my pump has a small nut and bolt loop terminal on it. hope it is right.
i have found the wire coming off it looks bent back over 90 degrees. and poss damaged so will have to check it out if i get the right sensor come
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fuel temperature sender is only available from good bosch agents,
pretty sure there was a how to on here but cant find it, it involves removing the top cover of the injection pump, to replace :y
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as you suspected the sender is not the same as the one on my pump, thanks to greenhouse vauxhall clough street hanley, your crap !!!!!
anyone got a diagram of the pump so i can try and workout what the sender type item is on the top of my pump,
spoke to swadlincote diesels near burton on trnet today, done work on a vectra some years back for me,
he has confirmed that the issue is the pump going faulty.
but as always pop it in for a bosch hookup and all for a cost of £42 + vodka and tonic.
then depends what we find as we may need to discuss with you further tests. lol
can anyone tell me if this fuel temp sensor is behind the square black box / cap on the side of the pump?
something else which maybe nothing or something, injector 1 nearest rad has oil in the bottom gathering, fairly sure i cleaned this up sometime ago, can't see oil running anywhere to drip into the injector well etc.
deff oil as i licked it lol.
also noticed on the injection pump two of the injector pipes looked dirty / damp / wet so cleaned all off with carb cleaner, i will check over the weekend if it has returned.
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Heres the link.
The only thing I'll say is the fuel temp sensor is a factory fix (Bosch).Trust me been there done that
The plactic bit that holds the throttle control is also the temp sensor:y
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1284826092
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on picky one! the sender type item is to the right of the green arrow, what is this part?
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on picky one! the sender type item is to the right of the green arrow, what is this part?
Thats the fuel pump solinoid it's only to start/stop the engine.
There is a sensor at the base of the pump (black wire) this is the fuel qauntity this throws up code 34 and again this is a factory/diesel specialists fix :y
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Think i will plug my "My Naff Code Reader" in and live data it when cold and repeat it when hot. it may show something up.
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Just do the paperclip test and see what codes are there :y
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Think i will plug my "My Naff Code Reader" in and live data it when cold and repeat it when hot. it may show something up.
Here's the codes: http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1205270870
;)
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done the paperclip test and got two codes 12 & 96
my "My Naff Code Reader" keeps picking the 96 but not checked lately so 12 may be new but can't find what code 12 is?
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DOH!!!! lol i really should read more lol
code 12 is start of test lol so all i have is 96 egr out of range what ever that means,
it had a brand new egr valve on the old gal just before i brought it. this code came up on the "My Naff Code Reader" so i stripped and cleaned the egr valve the re fitted, so no idea on that one.
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Take the vac hoses off and give them a clean with some carb cleaner also look for cracked pipes. :y
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egr can get sticky as well even a new one,give it a clean up, :y
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i had this issue in another post not long back, and if i'm right this is when this lazy starting began or is that just a coincidence,
i had three pipes on the wrong valve ports etc. hope i have them right now urrrrmmm
another thing i have been trying to code a s/h key from fleabay and had my lappy plugged in via "My Naff Code Reader", wasn't long before i needed to get a jump start off the mrs KA jeeez the embarssment or what. wonder if it is the battery not juiced enough????
OMG its a conspiracy making me go mad now, my meega is haunted i'm sure.
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egr can get sticky as well even a new one,give it a clean up, :y
was all stripped off and cleaned with carb cleaner only 2 months ago when i pulled off the code 96 on my "My Naff Code Reader", strange it is not showing up on "My Naff Code Reader" anymore. mind you i chose clear faults so wonder if i paperclip it again now will it not show up?
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anyone confirm this part please as i changed it not long back for one off a vectra as my clips had broken,
(http://images.omegaowners.com/images/guides/25td_oil_change/100_2044.jpg)
again around when i started getting this problem starting.
maybe nothing as i though this was for the alarm lol
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yes, bonnet switch for alarm :y
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Pheew thought it was best to check cheers
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before this hot start issue, my glow plug lights always came on even when warm, so why would it not come on now and not heat the plugs either.
could it really have something to do with the heater relay?
the guy i got my chip off has told me to spray carb cleaner on the crank sensor to make sure it is not caked up and false reading
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before this hot start issue, my glow plug lights always came on even when warm, so why would it not come on now and not heat the plugs either.
could it really have something to do with the heater relay?
the guy i got my chip off has told me to spray carb cleaner on the crank sensor to make sure it is not caked up and false reading
dp they come on when motor is cold??
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DP?
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Mine don't come on when cold, in fact I wish they would, when the car just starts to warm up, they decide "I don''t need to operate then there glowplugs" when they really are needed. I am thinking of a manual "override". (I am going to try a new relay first).
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Mine come on when cold, light goes out well before relay clunks off, as i said before. my light always lit for a short time even when warm starting,
pity no one local who i could swap relays to test the difference, these relays are mega money to buy if ain't broke.
so yours don't light up at all?
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I think it's the( in pump) sensor that needs changing.
Hot start fix is just 2k ohm in series with pump sensor till engine fires,
Thin grey or grey blue IIRC.
what wattage is the resistor chap?
nearest i can find to 2k ohm resistor is 2,2 would this do?
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Tank pump or injection pump? the later im guessing. can this resistor be fitted higher up other than pupm? anyone know where plz
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anyone available to advise on these pickys please, found this relay with a blue / white wire coming from it and tapped into pin 12 of the glowplug timer,
the relay does not look like it was there from build.
and why does it tap off the glow plug timer??
is this connected to my problem?
i have tried taking the relay out and can't feel or here it click when i put it back in.
(http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab42/bravo3zero/timer.jpg)
(http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab42/bravo3zero/relay1.jpg)
(http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab42/bravo3zero/relay2.jpg)
thanks rob
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fitted a new relay here just incase but can't see any difference to starting.
so i'll throw it open for a bonus point
thanks rob
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can anyone one shed some light on my issue in the first post on page 1 please. thanks rob
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mods please delete the last three identical posts, my bad, thought page 4 was last page and could not see my posts so resubmitted sorry.
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mods please delete the last three identical posts, my bad, thought page 4 was last page and could not see my posts so resubmitted sorry.
:y
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ok one of the posts was the one i needed leaving lol,
i have took the drastic measure of buying a fleabay hot fix kit and yipeeeeeeeee it now works, paid £29.99 and came within 2 days, i got the better kit not the relay and resistor,
turns out this problem has been on the car before i brought the car, because upon untaping the ecu wiring loom near the ecu, i find out some nice dude has already chopped the temp sender wire and then put a join in it.
it seems that the relay i was asking about in the previous posts is the cheap hack job via relay and resistor, pulled out the relay i replaced upon instruction from the timer seller on ebay and all works still, even when the car is warmed up i can get glow plugs warming up and starts first crack of the key.
kit really well made and very pleased with it.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/390352398314?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/390352398314?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649)
anyone need any info on this just let me know, real easy fix for any skill level
Rob
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ps still would like to know what the relay socket and wiring in the picture is for in general please, someone must know
thanks rob