Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: i260 on 21 September 2011, 23:45:56
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So, the EIbach springs, Billie B8's, poly ARB bushes, Lemforrderrs wishbones with poly bush, new drop links, euro car parts top bushes and eibach camber bolts have all been fitted >:( 8-)
The problem is that basically from the get-go there has been a knocking from the drivers side that is most aparent on tar chipped roads at about 30/40mph.
It has been back to the garage who have stripped it back down twice now and assure me that eveything is tight and they cant identify where the noise is coming from.
I can not be totally sure that there was something before but nothing like this volume and persistancy. Not sure if it is new or just that the firmer suspension is magnifying the problem.
The noise is sort of hollow but seems to come back through the steering wheel and there is the occasional 'going light' on bumpy bends.
The only things I can think is that I have a duff bush or bearing or that the shocker is not great on that side.
I am tempted to get the old bushes put back in as a starter to rule that one out.
This is all a massive shame coz the overall transformation is awsome and really subtle.
Any other ideas??
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no but...
http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=85449.0
also ongoing
(edit to point to new site)
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It won't be the polly bushes causing the lite feeling. Can you give further description of when it happens. Has it been set up yet? Or are you waiting to fix the knock before set up? Which is wise IMO.
Also why does it need camber bolts?
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sorry for the delay ion replying - log-in probs :-[
Right - firstly I did the adjustable camber bolts because they existed and I figured they must exist to solve a problem and I didnt want to lose the inside edges of my front tyres, not realising that (aparently) the front camber can be adjusted anyway. Oh well, not taking them off now!
Having done nearly 2,000 miles since original fitting I suspect some of the iffy handling traits are simply not good tracking - vague at the straight ahead and a tendancy to get pulled by undulations in the road. Also, the feeling of going light mid corner and then everything catching up a bit later.
With regards to the mystery noise I am still at a loss - it disapears on smooth roads and really gets unplesant on the tar chipped stuff at 30-40mph.
Is there anything in the steering that could have been accentuated by the firmer suspension set up?
Any thoughs?
I am not going to do anything immediatley but if it has not become aparent by the spring then I will be tempted to take the good bits off and change the car over because as it stands it is not an acceptable long term solution. If in changing back parts the noise goes then we have made progress.
I guess I will have to keep an eye on tyre ware and look to get it set up elsewhere maybe.
Anybody in S Wales or Bristol care to meet up and cast an opinion?
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Well, If you fancy a spin down the m4 to junction 11....?
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Well, If you fancy a spin down the m4 to junction 11....?
a little further than i was inititaal intending but will keep in mind!
I am starting to think it is a duff shocker... it / they sound weird coming over the pavement to my driveway ???
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I very much doubt you'll get a duff billy.
But without getting under there yourself, or with someone with you you'll never know.
Are all the parts correct for the car?
Are all the parts done up correctly? I know they said they checked but...
Have correct torque settings been used?
Etc etc, that's s lit if parts to fit. Any one could be loose or incorrect.
Agree jcn11 us too far. But offers there.
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Should read, that's alot if parts to fit.... Sigh.
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Should read, that's alot if parts to fit.... Sigh.
Yes this lack of a modify option is a bummer, but no doubt the admins will fix it. :-\
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I very much doubt you'll get a duff billy.
But without getting under there yourself, or with someone with you you'll never know.
Are all the parts correct for the car?
Are all the parts done up correctly? I know they said they checked but...
Have correct torque settings been used?
Etc etc, that's s lit if parts to fit. Any one could be loose or incorrect.
Agree jcn11 us too far. But offers there.
Well, it was all fitted and re-fitted by pro garage used to doing omegas (owner has a few himslef) so I expect it to be tight enough.
With regards to getting duff billies - I know three people who have done billies to their cars over the years and all three have either needed to get replacements immediately or have suffered premature degredation. I (possibly foolishly) thought I could not be that unlucky! Maybe they are the best option but only if they manage to produce consistantly decent items?? Koni next time???...
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Anybody got access to a front strut removal / refit guide as I cant see one in the 'how2' guides.
Particularly the type of socket needed at the top and the torques.
Ta.
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Anybody got access to a front strut removal / refit guide as I cant see one in the 'how2' guides.
Particularly the type of socket needed at the top and the torques.
Ta.
Off the top of my head, you'll need an offset ring spanner (24mm?) and 10mm? spanner.
Disconnect the brake lines/wiring from the strut, undo drop links, loosen and camber bolts, noting position first. (A quick flash over the bolt heads with a splash of paint is pretty foolproof).
Before you remove the lower bolts, undo the FIRST nut on top of the strut and remove the cover plate.
The strut should then drop slightly, remove the camber bolts and remove the strut assembly from the wheel arch.
Careful as they are heavier than you might think.
To dismantle the strut you'll need a spring compessor. Only once the spring is compressed should you even dream about undoing the second nut on top of the strut. Ignore this at your own risk. :-X
Refit in reverse, ensuring the lower bolts are in the correct place before tightening.
HTH, Al. :y
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Cheers - wont be doing this immediately as too much else on my plate at the mo but hopefully sometime next month.
Weirdly I can now also identify the banging / knocking noise coming from the passenger side as well. Not at the same time as the drivers side but the same sort of noise. Hmmmmm, surely both front shox can't be faulty?
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No, sumats loose IMO.
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Options HAVE to be:
Poly bush in the Lemfroder wishbones are not working and allowing movement
Rear bush / balljoint in Lemfroder wishbones are not up to much
(Solution to either of these is to go and get my oem wishbones rebushed with some gen or other decent bushes and fit back in)
Eibach adj camber bolts are slipping / gripping
Eurocarparts top bushes / bearings are not up to much - (solution - put old ones back on)
When I drive over the pavement onto my drive there is a disctinct dry rubbery squelchy noise as though the shox are not enjoying the movement, but then it could be the poly bushes as they always make noise when I manouvre on the drive from full lock to full lock (had the same on a Saab9000 with poly bushes).
as stated, springs / shox have been off and on a few times without resolving noise so am happy these are being done tight every time.
Getting close to buying a cheapie to run about in for a bit while i get to work on trying bits on and off the car as it will be way to expensive and time consuming to go back to the garage.
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I don't see it asked, but - on the vague/wandery feeling, two questions:
1) What tyres are you running?
2) Have you looked at the rear subframe donut bushes at all?
The knocking I can't help with .. mine knocks like a sod but I'm assuming it's the drop links until I change them :)
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The knocking I can't help with .. mine knocks like a sod but I'm assuming it's the drop links until I change them
Poly bushed new arms on mine hoping to cure clonking. ::) Turned out the droplinks were also shot. Still at about £10 each, might be worth ruling them out :-\
No mention of steering idler either :-\
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I'm quite sure the wandering vagueness and catch up sensations will go with set up complete. But as the op says there is little point in set up until the fault has been found, although if it is drop links knocking they won't affect set up at all. Symptoms could well be drop link play, easily spotted with both wheels jacked on stands, and wiggle the roll bar ends. You'll feel any play by hand.
Steering idler play would be obvious surely...?
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I'm quite sure the wandering vagueness and catch up sensations will go with set up complete. But as the op says there is little point in set up until the fault has been found, although if it is drop links knocking they won't affect set up at all. Symptoms could well be drop link play, easily spotted with both wheels jacked on stands, and wiggle the roll bar ends. You'll feel any play by hand.
Steering idler play would be obvious surely...?
True. But no mention of it having been changed. :-\ Also wonder what state the rear shocks/springs are in? Alot of time/effort seems to have gone into the front struts/arms with no thought to the other bits. :-\
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Got bonking noises at the front of mine :(....its been up on the lift and the droplink one side is suspect. Do they come in pairs or can you get them singly?
I notice from a previous post they are only about a tenner, so is it worth doing both sides, although the other one was pronounced ok ;)
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I believe they're available individually, but at only 5ish mins a side, might as well do both. :y
Sure one of us could do them on the 5th for you. :y
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I'm quite sure the wandering vagueness and catch up sensations will go with set up complete. But as the op says there is little point in set up until the fault has been found, although if it is drop links knocking they won't affect set up at all. Symptoms could well be drop link play, easily spotted with both wheels jacked on stands, and wiggle the roll bar ends. You'll feel any play by hand.
Steering idler play would be obvious surely...?
True. But no mention of it having been changed. :-\ Also wonder what state the rear shocks/springs are in? Alot of time/effort seems to have gone into the front struts/arms with no thought to the other bits. :-\
Sorry for being away for a while - lets catch up with the comments!
Sorry if it was not obvious from the start of the thread (and other threads that I have done) - the rears DO have matching B8's and Steinmetz springs. A wholy dangerous thing to have just done the fronts to this spec!
The rear donut bushes were done last year.
New droplinks were installed as the first attempt to cure this but to no avail.
Steering is slowly getting worse - initially for the first few weeks it was ok but has degraded.
If I leave the car for a few days and then take it out the knocking takes a while to return - as though is has set into position and gets knocked into being out of position.
I think my first move will be to put the old oem front top bushes and bearings back on to eliminate that option.
Next will be to put the old struts back in and the final option will be to get the old oem wishbones rebushed with gen rubber bushes and poss remove the poly arb bushes.
Step-by-step and we will get there.
At least it should all be easy to undo as it has only just been put on.
I think it has to be some sort imcompatible component as it is knocking on both sides, rather that a single side which would more likely suggest a failed component.
I just need to get a Haynes and hope the weather holds for the weekend.
Could anybody confirm tools for dropping the strut out enough to replace the rubbers? One or two suggestions but they didnt seem to sure of the kt.
Ta.
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Right - the 24mm seems right however the Billies use a hex key in the top instead of the other spanner. Seems like a 7mm Brake caliper key should work nicely...
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Before I got to work I decided to jack the wishbone up while the car was on axle stands.
Seems that the noise is coming from the poly bush on either the arb or the wishbones.
Anybody had negative experiences with the poly bush option??
I am thinking that I will get some regular bushes and try put those in next weekend instead of doing the top bush swap today.
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You could try whipping them out, giving them a good coat of copperslip, and wang them back in. ;)
See if that cures it :-\
:y
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Should they normally be fitted 'dry' or with some lube??
I can see that if they were fitted dry then they could grip/slip/grip/slip making the noise.
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I think that I have two separate issues going on here:
1) odd noise from poly bush
2) I have just parked up with the wheels on full lock and then gave the drivers-side wheel/tyre a really good tug / rock and got the car into a bit of a rocking cycle and the feeling back through the wheel was that the wheel / hub was loose, however the wheel itself it certainly tight as I have just put it back on and re-checked the bolts! Possible it is part of the steering joints that have / are giving up (shown up with the car now being lowered??)?
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Used copperslip when we fitted mine at the Lakes.
Chrisgixer will be the person to ask about tweaked suspension wear.
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I have something not a million miles away....think youve seen it.
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I think that I have two separate issues going on here:
1) odd noise from poly bush
2) I have just parked up with the wheels on full lock and then gave the drivers-side wheel/tyre a really good tug / rock and got the car into a bit of a rocking cycle and the feeling back through the wheel was that the wheel / hub was loose, however the wheel itself it certainly tight as I have just put it back on and re-checked the bolts! Possible it is part of the steering joints that have / are giving up (shown up with the car now being lowered??)?
If I understand your post correctly, and your
holding the wheel in 3/9 o'clock position???
And while jacked???
Then that's normal play in the steering box. With engine running, and steering straight that play should disappear as the hydraulics take up the slack. The further away from straight ahead, the worse that play gets.
Does that follow what you where testing...?
Where the pollys greased?
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Ok re read, sounds like your testing car on the floor? But the above test may help trace the issue back throughout the steering mechanism?
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I had the car off the jack and had it on full lock, engine off and gave a voilent spell of shaking to get the sensation of movement.
The tyres have developed a very sharp edge on the font of the out-side edge so the tracking has sliped within 2,000 miles so maybe that is some indication of something being loose?
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Suspension will settle from new. First month being worst. As it settles camber increases, and so will toe.
Torque values are in maintenance and Haynes. I'd get a torque wrench and check every bolt is tightened to the correct setting. Easy mistake to make. Wrong torque setting on the wrench or miss a bolt or a side completely.
I know they have checked, but even so. Wishbone bush bolts 120nm +angle tighten 30 then 15 degrees....steering knuckle pinch bolt 100nm from memory. But my memory is appalling so you need to check. Also go over shock to knuckle bolts, drop link bolts, caliper and carrier bolts... The lot!
You need to get under there IMO...
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No time to get out there while it is light so going back in next week.
If they cant find it then it all goes back to standard (hopefully shutting up the noise) and the car and parts go separate ways on the bay of e.
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So, a last 'do-or-die' visit to the garage has, on the final day and four suspension strips we have finally got to the bottom of the problem.
The Euro Car Parts top bush!
It is about 5mm thinner / shorter than the oem unit so we are back running the old bushes.
Basically the noise was the top cap rubbing on the inside of the turret, mostly on the drivers side but slightly on the passengers side - which ties up with the wobbly steering and the sensation that the wheels were loose.
So now I need to look into whether epc sent me the wrong part (for a 4 cyl??) or if their item is just no good for uprated suspension.
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Should be same across the range. Only springs and shocks change.
Good to hear your getting somewhere though.
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So the ECP part is a pile of stinky stuff then!
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Try Lemforder from allgerman? There's a baring in there as well, which has probably had a battering. Worth opening that race up and checking for pitting with a re grease at the very least, if not done already...?
Just a thought, the shock tops match? Length of thread showing etc?
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Well, 60 miles on and all seems ok - will put anothe few hundred on this weekend so will be sure next week.
Job to say about thread lengths as I have not seen them off together.
If I do change them I will stump up good money for gen parts (alas!).
Thanks everybody for all your comments and suggestions.
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I haven't read all the replies just the first page lol, but I have got a strange knocking on my car, my friend and I spent and afternoon jiggling all the front and rear suspension components and came up with zilch, then driving my Omega to a garage to get my new Catalytic converter fitted my mate who was following behind me said my exhaust appeared to be moving a bit. So after getting my car back from the garage we got back under the car and and found that the rear rubbers aren't totally shot but stretched enough to cause the knocking. So is your exhaust secured properly to the car???
HTH
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see the most recent posts 2 or 3 up from this one - Front strut bushes bad fitment.
(thanks for the interest in the post tho!)
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Yep noises are a bugger. Recently had a nasty noise over bumps. Hit a speed bump, ooh that's front left, another speed bump, no right rear, next bump left rear, aye? What's going on...?
Turned out the noise was from front right, wrong x3! ;D
wheel arch liner dis placed after a joust with a range rover. :(. ...sigh!
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Yep noises are a bugger. Recently had a nasty noise over bumps. Hit a speed bump, ooh that's front left, another speed bump, no right rear, next bump left rear, aye? What's going on...?
Turned out the noise was from front right, wrong x3! ;D
wheel arch liner dis placed after a joust with a range rover. :(. ...sigh!
Pmsl I find when diagnosing a wheel bearing, i always try the wrong side first! I convince myself that it's the side it's not! So I position the car so I can get to the good one then realise it don't need changing D'OH!!!!!!
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Good interesting thread. Glad that you've got the problem sorted. 8) :y
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Good interesting thread. Glad that you've got the problem sorted. 8) :y
Not half as glad as me ;)! I had visions of binning the lot :P