Omega Owners Forum
Omega Help Area => Omega Electrical and Audio Help => Topic started by: petec on 03 December 2007, 16:54:23
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Hi all, I'm a newbie to this forum so please be patient if I ask something that everyone has already discussed to death already!
I have just got an 03 plate, CDX 2.6 v6 estate, its in lovely nick can't fault it except the sound system, it works and its ok (siemens ccr2006) but not as good as the aftermarket sony unit in my old vectra.
Having looked through the forum I realise there is not much can be done to these. I found the how-to on adding line out outputs so I can fit an external 4ch amp and drive the existing speakers via the external amps......might do that.
There are a couple of other things which someone may be able to help me with.
If I wanted to fit a sub what is the best way to go about it in an estate, this would have to be a compromise solution as I don't want to lose the load carrying capacity of the estate by sticking a big box on the boot floor.
It occurred to me that the elite has a bose system with "subs" in the parel shelf on the saloon, is there an equivalent setup for the estate or has anyone got a better solution.
The other thing was the old chestnut about aux inputs, like several others I would like to be able to plug in my ipod.
I know there are no aux inputs and I am not keen on the rf modulator route or a cassette adaptor but it occurs to me that the cassette player has a dedicated audio input, probably switched in as you put in a tape. What if that input could be intercepted and put through a minature relay in the player so relay released, input from external source, relay operated (maybe from a condition generated by pushing tape in) input from tape. you then would just bring the inputs out the rear on rca or mini jacks.
Has anyone tried this or got the schematics for the 2006.....it would be nice to keep the standard look of the panel without going to an adapter and a single din aftermarket unit. So anyone got any views on the likely success of trying this before I set about mine with a soldering iron? :-/
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Hi,
I'm also a newbie but funnily enough will be doing something similar in the near future (I’m actually taking it a bit further by installing a Siemens NCDC 2013 Head Unit with Sat Nav and a Colour Screen to replace the MID display, but we wont go there just yet).
I plan to rip out the Phillips 2006 Head unit from my Megi MV6 Estate and replace it with a Bose (or similar) setup.
From what I understand the Bose Estate set up uses a single speaker Bose Sub Box in the rear nearside panel behind the little door flap thingy. I’m also told that Bose use the existing door speakers that are fitted as standard?, but without driving the Sub Base into them. Not the ideal solution but will work ok as a starting point.
As for the Bose Amp I have no idea where its fitted on the Estate (its under rear parcel shelf on the Saloon, so I would imaging its going to be somewhere similar for the Estate otherwise Vauxhall would need to change the Loom).
I’ve been checking FleaBay for a while for the Estate Plastic Sub Box only to find there like Rocking Horse Poo, so I bought a Bose Loom and Subs from a Saloon.
Like you I don’t want to lose any luggage space and I really don’t want a Removable Sub Box bouncing around in the back of a MV6. My initial plan is to try a fit them (width allowing) in the rear door with some sealed wooden baffle, if that doesn’t work then I’ll probably fit each one each side of the rear panels, again with a good and sealed wooden baffle, either way I going to have to ensure their protected from luggage moving around in the boot.
Anyway that’s as far as I got, as I currently addressing Sat Nav issues at the moment as I plan to do the whole thing including the Bose together.
Let me know how you get on.
Regards Chris.
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Hi Chris, how available are the bose bits from breakers? I was assuming I would have to go out and buy something of a similar size that would fit but it would be better to get the original fit drivers, looms etc.
I hadn't thought of fitting bass drivers in the rear door, that seems like a neat idea, have you seen one fitted like that before.
cheers
Pete
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If you look at my line outputs HOWTO you'll see the part number of the volume / tone controls chip. I believe this does the input multiplexing, from the little dabble I had with a scope when it was apart.
If you google for a data sheet on this chip and look at the input pins (4 pairs) you might be able to find the cassette input. However, I believe the input for the telematics / trafficmaster is also switched by this chip, so if you could feed a stereo line in to this pair of pins (phone input is mono) you could then use a switch on the phone mute input to switch over to it.
Just a theory at the moment. I will try it one of these days, when I can face getting it out of the car again!
Kevin
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on a Bose equipped car you will find that the speakers are bose units as well, not just the base unit
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Kevin,
Thanks for the info, I will have a look at the howto and get the spec for the chipset. I have a scope so it 's a case of getting round to ripping it apart. I would like to have a reasonable idea of what I hoped to achieve first...it sounds possible although I have a hands free kit in the car so the phone mute is in use + the mono inputs which is why I wondered about switching the cassette input....I probably won't ever use cassettes.
cheers
Pete
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Hi Pete,
No idea about the Breakers for Bose bits, but I would imaging from a Breakers point of view any bits with a Bose label on, it gets offered down the Pub first followed by eBay.
There’s not much second hand Bose stuff around for Face Lifts (double Din), most of its all single Din, but that’s not to say the pre Face Lift speakers, Amp and Looms would not fit.
Theirs some guys on eBay that do a iPod interface unit for Bose Head units, it plugs into the external CD changer and displays your iPod info on the MID display whilst allowing you to use the Steering Controls to control your iPod, I would imaging you would lose your CD player but that’s no big deal if your iPoding anyway, I would have thought. If you want I try and track their details down.
Rear Subs in the rear door of the Estate no haven’t seen it before just an idea I had for the Bose Subs as I want the car to look pretty much as standard as possible.
Some one told me that the double Din Siemens NCDC head units go into Bose Mode if you if you connect one the rear pins to High (i.e., it goes from Speaker Out to Pre-amp Out for the Bose Amp), but I don’t have any other info than that as far as that one goes.
Cheers Chris
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Chris,
Interesting bit of info on the siemens unit I have googled for any data or differences between it and the phillips but didn't find anything so assumed it was just another source for a standard ccr2006.
Has anyone got any information as whether the Siemens sourced units can be switched between line output and spkr output by applying a condition to one of the leads?
Pete
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Pretty sure the CCR2006 can be reprogrammed via tech2 to provide line outs instead of amplified outs...
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So if the HU can be programmed to give line level outputs I would then have to break into the spkr cables somewhere close to the HU ( while they are still all together) and feed the output into a 4 channel external amp and then feed the amp outputs back into the cables to the spkrs.
Is there any spare space in the front of the cabin that a fairly compact amp could be fitted, possibly behind the glovebox or centre consul etc. The alternative would be to extend the cables to the back, amp the signal and then bring them back to feed into the existing loom going down to the speakers..messy but probably workable.
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Theboy, looks like I will be coming to you for a gearbox firmware upgrade, a climate control update and to get the outputs of the ccr2006 changed to line level once I have worked out where to put amps and cables.
cheers
Pete
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Hi Pete,
If you gonna use pre-amp towards the back of the Car (ie Amp in the Back) change your speaker wiring from the Head Unit to Screened Cable as pre amp level is low level and subject to all sorts of interference.
Not sure about the Bose output levels but its probally near the normal (Max 0db level, 0.7071 volts at 600 Ohms).
Chris.
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Pretty sure the CCR2006 can be reprogrammed via tech2 to provide line outs instead of amplified outs...
I think it will still come through the power amplifiers though, just at reduced level. This means you can't ground one of the pins because it's a bridged amplifier and it gives a balanced output. I imagine inside the Bose amp it drives each amp via a transformer. Would be interesting to try, with a 'scope to hand.
With that in mind I'd use screened twisted pair cable (STP network cable is ideal) to feed the signals to the back and then run each channel through a transformer.
Also, I'm still using the rear channel speaker outputs from the head unit as I didn't bother to amplify them. Presumably the bose option is all or nothing?
Is there any spare space in the front of the cabin that a fairly compact amp could be fitted
It's pretty tight up front. Passenger side is all taken up with glove box, airbag and heater fan.
I think there's a little room on the driver's side way up above the pedals but it's really awkward. I put mine in the first aid box cubby hole in the boot.
Kevin
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Amp is fitted behind flap on opposite side from the sub.
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Pretty sure the CCR2006 can be reprogrammed via tech2 to provide line outs instead of amplified outs...
I think it will still come through the power amplifiers though, just at reduced level. This means you can't ground one of the pins because it's a bridged amplifier and it gives a balanced output. I imagine inside the Bose amp it drives each amp via a transformer. Would be interesting to try, with a 'scope to hand.
With that in mind I'd use screened twisted pair cable (STP network cable is ideal) to feed the signals to the back and then run each channel through a transformer.
Also, I'm still using the rear channel speaker outputs from the head unit as I didn't bother to amplify them. Presumably the bose option is all or nothing?
Is there any spare space in the front of the cabin that a fairly compact amp could be fitted
It's pretty tight up front. Passenger side is all taken up with glove box, airbag and heater fan.
I think there's a little room on the driver's side way up above the pedals but it's really awkward. I put mine in the first aid box cubby hole in the boot.
Kevin
There are no transformers on the inputs, way to high cost and affect sound babndwidth and flatness to much, it has a diff input opamp....(as all opamps are!)
As for the standard speakers, the bose ones are different but, the only major difference is that fact that they are 2 ohms so you can get a little more power out of the amps with the cars limited 12V supply without using a DC-DC, nothing to worry about realy.
All the speaker setup ends at a connector in the drivers side kick panel, its into this that the bose loom plugs.
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So the Bose Amp must be High Impedance Pre Amp inputs then?, so what comes out of the Head Units in Bose Mode, surely it can’t be just a reduced volume speaker out that’s expecting to see a 2-4 Ohm, I suppose they could introduce some resistance in line with the Speaker Out (Bit like Headphone outputs on HiFi Amps), but then you would be re-amplifying an already amplified signal, it would work but wouldn’t have thought it would sound too clever let alone the noise figures?
I don’t know!, but would be interested to find out though, I’ll be playing around with a Bose upgrade shortly, so the more I could find out the better.
Chris
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Think I'll wait and see what conclusions you reach Chris before doing anything, my better half is expecting me to refit the bathroom before I start playing so you will probably have sorted it all out by the time I am ready to upgrade.
Just looking at the diagram in a Haynes manual 94-97 model, there are 2 configurations, one has HU connected directly to spks (standard setup), the other uses the same HU connectors but takes them via screened pair to "processor" and then on to spkrs, the processor also has outputs to 2 subs so this must be the Bose option.
The fact that the HU to amp links are balanced pairs does support what has been said already, that they are probably just low level outputs from the power amps in the HU, the pin outs are certainly the same.
so it doesn't seem likely the outputs will be compatible with any aftermarket power amps as the latter always (?) have a grounded screen on inputs.
Pete
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suppose you could always build a balanced line driver stage to interface with an aftermarket power amp but it would probably make more sense to get an amp with high level inputs :-/
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so what comes out of the Head Units in Bose Mode, surely it can’t be just a reduced volume speaker out that’s expecting to see a 2-4 Ohm
I didn't see anything in the CCR2006 to switch the outputs so my assumption is that it's just that. Maybe the Bose amp contains a load or maybe the amp is happy feeding a high impedance? I haven't dissected a Bose amp so I'm not sure. :-/
The main issue is that it's balanced, whereas most amplifiers accept an unbbalanced input via a phono connector. The point I was trying to make is that you can't ground the -ve speaker wire and feed the positive wire into the phono input, as that will short one of the ouputs on the head unit power amplifier.
There are four things you could try:
1) Configure the head unit for Bose and feed the positive speaker connection into the amp's input and ground the outer of the amp input at the head unit. (effectively use one of the outputs as an unbalanced output), putting a load resistor across the speaker output of the head unit.
2) Configure the head unit for Bose and feed the balanced signal through a "ground breaker" for car audio installs (basically an audio transformer in a box) to convert it to an unbalanced signal referenced to ground.
3) Use the speaker outputs as is into an amp with speaker level inputs.
4) Break out the line level signals as I did.
All except option 4 leave the head unit power amplifiers in the signal path unless I've missed something when poking around in the CCR2006.
Kevin
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Kevin,
I agree with your 4 options and out of them option 4 does seem to be the only way to take the original output stage out of the loop.
I understood exactly what you were getting at with regard to amps in the 2006 having a balanced output which would prevent direct connection to another power amp input because it would ground one leg (and blow half the output stage) which is why I(only half jokingly) suggested knocking up an extra stage which would accept the balanced line input and output an unbalanced signal which can feed an external power amp.
On balance your route which involves picking up the unbalanced line level outputs from the cct board looks much simpler and neater and presumably works ok
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Kevin,
I understood exactly what you were getting at...
Sorry. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.
On balance your route which involves picking up the unbalanced line level outputs from the cct board looks much simpler and neater and presumably works ok
Yes. It's been working really nicely. I'm starting to realise the FM tuner in the CCR2006 isn't too hot but the CD sounds very nice and it keeps the whole lot looking "bog standard" to the passer-by which is what I wanted.
Hope it goes well :y
Kevin
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Kevin
Sorry I didn't mean to imply that you meant to imply that I didn't understand what you were on about...Think thats right :-[